Canada Considers Making Vaccines Mandatory 312
New submitter nuckfuts writes: Canada's Minister of Health is signalling that provinces may make vaccines mandatory in the coming months as the only way to deal with surging COVID-19 caseloads. It will be up to individual provinces to decide. Alberta's Premier Jason Kenny as already stated that Alberta will not make vaccines mandatory. Some European countries, such as Austria and Greece, have moved in that direction already as infection rates hit record highs and vaccination campaigns stall. Greeks over the age of 60 who are not yet vaccinated are now subject to monthly fines of 100 euros ($140 Cdn). Austria, which has one of the lowest vaccination rates in the European Union, is looking at fining unvaccinated Austrians more than 7,000 euros ($9,880). Slovakia, meanwhile, is offering payments of 600 euros ($844) to encourage people to get their shots.
Good, I hope they do (Score:5, Insightful)
Vaccination with an mRNA vaccine is proven safe and effective at reducing hospitalization and serious illness. At some point, society needs to invoke self-defense against people who willfully put it in danger.
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Unfortunately they can't do that. 'Stupidty' was a pre-existing condition.
Re: what about microchip compatibility (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Good, I hope they do (Score:5, Insightful)
Vaccination with an mRNA vaccine is proven safe and effective at reducing hospitalization and serious illness. At some point, society needs to invoke self-defense against people who willfully put it in danger.
There is no present evidence the existing vaccines are preventing people from contracting or transmitting Omicron. In fact, heavily vaccinated states and countries (such as NY) are among those topping the charts for case #s.
Even against the older strains there is at best conflicting evidence on whether vaccination or natural immunity is more effective in preventing infection and transmission, so a mandate without a carve out for the naturally immune is imposing a heavy burden on a large group of people without scientific basis.
Assuming none of that were true, what is the evidence that mandates deliver their promised policy outcomes? (And in fact... don't impede them?) We don't live in a fictional Sim world where you just decide what you want to happen and it happens. Passing a constitutional amendment outlawing alcohol doesn't mean the country stops drinking. We have been running vaccination campaigns in third world countries for decades and have mostly come to consensus is that mandates are not the way to go. (Otherwise it would have been trivial to conditional our billions of $ in aid on them being adopted.) Why is the first world different?
If it were true that vaccine mandates worked and achieved the desired public health result, then on what basis is it justified when weighed against individual rights? Shouldn't we also outlaw extra-marital sex and conquer HIV and other STDs? And mandate exercise regimens and strict diets, as well as forbid alcohol and processed food? (Those policies would reduce death statistics far more than even universal COVID vaccines.) If effective, should we then start using this system to punish and exclude people who are adversely affecting our society in other ways - racists, criminals, sexual deviants, gangbangers, marxists, etc.?
Once we agree a "good reason" outweighs fundamental rights, keep in mind you don't necessarily get to be the person who decides what the reason is or what imposition it justifies.
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Your fundamental error is assuming that the purpose of vaccines is to prevent infections. The goal of vaccines is two-fold - reduce hospitalizations, and reduce long term complications. One *possible* way to do that would be to prevent infections, but that is not the only way.
There are oceans of data that show that the COVID vaccines are doing *exactly* what they are supposed to do - reducing severity, reducing hospitalizations, and reducing complications.
Re: Good, I hope they do (Score:5, Insightful)
No, I'm not in favor of any of those things. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Mandatory vaccinations are different. They are required to protect our healthcare system so that people who need medical procedures can get them. Furthermore, vaccination is proven to be safe and effective; it doesn't have anywhere near the downsides of donating a kidney.
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Its no different AT ALL. Perhaps youd be happy to see people force fed drugs too? What to put in your own body should be a choice you make, not a politician so stop trying to justify the unjustifiable by splitting hairs over safety.
Sooo. . . my body, my choice? Like abortion? Politicians shouldn't have any say in what a woman does with her body, right?
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Ok legalize pot then and stop with the abortion bullshit. My body my choice right?
Re: Good, I hope they do (Score:2, Insightful)
Go read some Orwell you fool. Some wonder how the Stazi did so well, people like you are the reason. You dont deserve rights.
Re: Good, I hope they do (Score:5, Insightful)
So you're saying that people who disagree with you "don't deserve rights". Who is the Orwellian one?
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For fuck's sake, mandatory vaccination was one of the few things about the GDR that was good. Only idiots like you who have zero experience with either make these stupid comparisons.
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But you're drawing the line at getting a safe shot a couple of times a year that will preve
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At "forced medical procedures" performed solely for one's own or solely for another's benefit, versus forced medical procedures performed to stop communicable disease.
This has been an essentially settled issue since George Washington required his troops to be innoculated against smallpox in the Revolutionary War, not to mention the essentially all of the century preceding the 2020 pandemic. The slippery slope didn't slip. If anything, we've moved
Re: Good, I hope they do (Score:2)
If someone comes to drain you of a few pints or force feed you some pills because your behaviour is now seen to be a danger to society dont complain. The group is all that matters, the individual is irrelevant.
Hmm, where have I heard that before.
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Presumably you're also in favour of forced blood donation in order to save lives too?
If a new pandemic in the future made it so people were only contagious or at risk of overloading hospital capacity if they didn't give a yearly blood donation, yes I would be among those advocating for forced blood donations. I'm also fine with the concept of military conscription during time of war, so obviously I would be okay with any forced procedure which is less dangerous than military service if there was a similarly compelling reason for forced compliance.
If forced medical procedures are now ok where do you stop?
Somewhere. We will stop somewhere. The answe
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As soon as any of that is contagious let me know.
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The difference is that our health care system can cope with the diseases of obesity, whereas COVID is threatening to overwhelm its capacity. Obese people's health problems are not stopping our health care system from providing medical care to other people who need it, but COVID is.
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Got anything looking kind of like a citation for that 8000 deaths number? Didn't think so.
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Again the vaccine isnt doing anything.
On the contrary, your own data prove the vaccine is quite effective. It takes only basic arithmetic to see it.
If the vaccine did nothing, you'd expect the ratio of vaccinated versus non-vaccinated people to be the same both in and out of hospitals. So, if 81% of the population is vaccinated, and you have 119 non-vaccinated people in ICU, you'd expect about 507 vaccinated people in ICU. However, as you say, only 106 are there; this means the vaccine reduces the chances of getting in ICU by almost 5 times. Th
Quebec has the right idea. (Score:2)
The US Supreme Court (Score:2)
That's a "I don't.... I can't even...." moment if there ever was one. The fact that one of the leaders of our country (who will lead for the rest of his life) is that ignorant of basi
Look under his tenth circuit history. (Score:2)
he's a pro-christian anti-separation of church and state wet dream. [wikipedia.org] In other words, he's one of Trump's gifts to evangelical lunatics who fanatically vote for him despite his porn stars and pussy grabs.
Peter Mculloch (Score:3, Informative)
Have a listen to the Joe Rogan Peter McCullough Interview.
https://covidvaccinesideeffect... [covidvacci...ffects.com]
And for balance, a rebuttal of some of his claims.
https://healthfeedback.org/cla... [healthfeedback.org]
Still, Peter is an expert cardiologist AND directly treats covid patients
The vaccines are causing heart failures and I don’t think should be given to healthy under 30 males.
Here are two daily medical reporters that present the latest covid statistics and research and are balanced. John Campbell and Dr Mobeen.
https://youtu.be/LEBGl8MVE-c [youtu.be]
https://youtu.be/2RvD7sF60jw [youtu.be]
To be clear, vaccines are useful, but they should be used on a risk/reward basis and certainly not on healthy children. Vitamin D levels are important. They should be above 50ng/mole.
The second highest risk for severe covid is obesity, which is probably why the USA was so badly affected.
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The vaccines are causing heart failures and I don’t think should be given to healthy under 30 males.
There are more than 300 million people vaccinated with mRNA vaccines and more than 50 million people under 30. So far there's no credible rise in heart-related problems.
We absolutely do see deaths from myocarditis... among the COVID patients.
I will vaccinate only by free choice (Score:5, Insightful)
Canadian here. "Canada" isn't considering making vaccines mandatory - the provinces are. Health policy is a matter of provincial jurisdiction here. Just wanted to clarify that.
But regardless, this is coming awfully close to state sanctioned tyranny, if they implement it. I have, since the start of the pandemic, been first in line for both vaccinations, for the booster, lined up for rapid test kits, all of it. You name it, I've done my part.
But - if they make vaccination mandatory (I suppose by fining or jailing people who don't vaccinate?), I will stop. It is *MY* body and I will vaccinate only so long as it is *MY* choice. The moment, the very instant I am told I no longer have that choice, I will become a rabid anti-vaxxer. I will fight a law like this tooth and nail, and I will go to jail for that belief. I am not anti-vaccine, but I am anti vaccine mandate, and solidly so. I doubt I'm the only one.
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That is really stupid. So you'd make decisions about your health based on things that are totally unrelated to your health's best interests?
Re:I will vaccinate only by free choice (Score:5, Insightful)
That is really stupid
That is your opinion.
And yes, I would. My health is not the only factor that informs my decisions on this matter. The possibility of massive government overreach is another one, and if necessary I will use my health, and the health of everyone else, as a method of protest. This would be a massive government abuse of power and I will not abide it.
Or to put it another way, if they mandate vaccines like this, I will lose all trust in public officials on this matter, and I will lose all trust in the "experts" that inform their opinions. I will not take a vaccine from a state that I do not trust.
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So in a future pandemic, you'd risk death even if you believed a vaccine to be safe and effective, just because of a vaccine mandate? As I said, this is really stupid.
Re:I will vaccinate only by free choice (Score:4, Insightful)
Having a principle that you will put over your own personal well being is not stupid.
It is principled.
We can argue about whether this principle is a good one, but most good things we've had in history have come from people putting principle over their own self-interest.
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A future pandemic may be far worse, or far milder. Yes, there is a level of lethality at which I would acquiesce in this conviction, but Covid-19 isn't it. If Covid was as lethal as Smallpox, then yes, I would vaccinate regardless of an abuse of state power - but it isn't. The point at which that line is remains to be seen, at least for me.
I might believe vitamins are safe and effective too. But I'll sure as hell refuse them if someone tries to force them upon me.
Re:I will vaccinate only by free choice (Score:5, Interesting)
I do not think "objective fact" means what you think it means.
Calling people morons because of their personal conviction, especially when it comes to vaccines today, is part of the problem. I would argue that is moronic, but I would apply that evaluation to your argument, not you as a person. I would also recognize it as my opinion and not fact. At least we know that 1) You resort to name calling when presented with an argument you disagree with, and 2) you confuse fact with opinion.
Re:I will vaccinate only by free choice (Score:5, Informative)
Explain to me these numbers and how well the vaccine is working if it is the be all end all of ending this pandemic.
Ontario is currently running 81.7% fully vaccinated ages 5 and older.
here is the case load breakdown for Ontario hospitals.
In ICU
119 un-vaccinated
17 partially vaccinated
106 fully vaccinated
Doesnt look like the vaccines are doing much there.
18.3% of Ontarians account for 46% of ICU admissions. That seems pretty clear to me.
In hospital but not ICU
Un-vaccinated 441
Partially Vaccinated 100
Fully Vaccinated 1327
Again the vaccine isnt doing anything.
Here is the page for these stats. https://covid-19.ontario.ca/da... [ontario.ca] and https://covid-19.ontario.ca/ [ontario.ca]
Now. Explain to me please how getting everyone vaccinated is going to do anything ? Ontario is at 81 almost 82% fully vaccinated.
18% of Ontarians account for 29% of hospital admissions. That one is less compelling, but still points to the same basic connclusion that you are less likely to be hospitalized to admitted to the ICU if you are vaccinated.
Arguments like this one are why it is very hard for me to have a nuanced view on the matter. This is a stupid argument and is a huge part of the reason why people tend to dismiss any kind of criticism of the current measures - because they immediately equate any criticism to uninformed and stupid arguments like this one.
Re:I will vaccinate only by free choice (Score:5, Insightful)
It is *MY* body and I will vaccinate only so long as it is *MY* choice.
I agree completely.
Maybe we can rephrase the issue: you may do as you please with your body, but if you choose to remain unvaccinated then you will not be able to participate fully in polite society. No in-person schooling, no access to bars or restaurants, you must hire someone to do your shopping for you. Forget about theaters, concerts, stadiums or any group activity. You don't get priority treatment at the ER over vaccinated folks.
Would you be fine with that? I think not. But look at what is really happening. You don't want freedom for your body, freedom of choice. You want freedom from the consequences of your own poor decisions.
See, your decisions are bad. Bad for you and your health, but we're going to agree that this is OK. You are allowed to make those choices for yourself.
You just don't get to make them for the rest of us. We made our decision to respect others. We respect your choice. You made it. Now accept the results.
You can still smoke, just not around others. You can be as drunk and as high as you want, but you can't get behind the wheel.
You can remain unvaccinated. But since you are unable to play nicely with others, you will need to stay home and play with yourself.
Re:I will vaccinate only by free choice (Score:5, Insightful)
this is coming awfully close to state sanctioned tyranny, if they implement it.
No, it's really not. Highly communicable disease is a community level problem. This means a community level solution is required. If you do not act in the interest of the community then you will be isolated for the health of the community. The alternatives to vaccination compliance are jail or exile because these two things protect the community from you.
This isn't a new idea but rather it is well traveled legal territory, even in Canada. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... [nih.gov]
Re:I will vaccinate only by free choice (Score:5, Insightful)
But - if they make vaccination mandatory
Canada has many examples of legislated mandatory vaccination. It's not government overreach more than just another day in the office, and legislation that is consistent with that of many western nations around the world. Here's one example: https://www.ontario.ca/laws/st... [ontario.ca]
Did you get your kids vaccinated or did you pay the $1000 fine?
You're happy to get vaccinated for something largely wiped out, but not happy to do so to reduce the effects of an actual pandemic. I'm not sure if you're ignorant or just a bad person.
. I doubt I'm the only one... (Score:3)
You're not the only one. There is a guy in Prince Rupert, and a lady in Winnipeg who don't want vaccine mandates. So you're not totally alone.
Politicians will miss their scapegoats (Score:2)
What's the end game? (Score:2)
The real question (Score:2)
Does Canada have someone who stockpiled nearly 1 million covid testing kits [imgur.com] and let them expire so they didn't have to report how many cases they have? Did this person also spew their infected spittle across a group of people when they were clearly infected with covid [imgur.com]?
What for? (Score:2)
Here in B.C. we're approaching 90% vaccination. Until they redefine "vaccinated", which I'm expecting in the next few weeks. There's not much wiggle room left.
I had the same feeling about vaccine passports: almost everybody already is vaccinated. What problem is this supposed to solve?
...laura
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I had the same feeling about vaccine passports: almost everybody already is vaccinated. What problem is this supposed to solve?
And that's exactly what the non-lemmings around the world have been asking for a while now. As the world's governments brazenly double down on failed policy instead of trying to come up with solutions that actually work, suddenly some of those crazy conspiracy theories are starting to seem less crazy. I'm definitely NOT an anti-vaxxer, but the events that have transpired after the announcement of omicron are starting to make me worry about what those in power are really up to here.
Chasing the wrong signal (Score:2)
Protecting against severe illness is great.
But really, is that the government's job?
The goal is to keep hospitals open and not having them stuffed with COVID patients. Is that really a public health problem that justifies mandatory vaccinations?
The vaccine doesn't prevent you from getting COVID. It doesn't really prevent transmission of COVID, apparently.
The politicians are chasing a signal, but is that particular signal important anymore?
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Herd immunity will never be a thing with Covid due to it's ability to hide in animal reservoirs (which then infect humans again along a new vector and so forth).
The good thing is that is appears to be following the science of all long lived viruses which is to become less lethal (i.e. not Ebola, more like SARS/H1N1 which is now actually part of what people refer to as 'the flu') so that they can actually spread (again, see Ebola vs the flu).
However this also means since it will never truly be eradicated (al
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Herd immunity will never be a thing with Covid due to it's ability to hide in animal reservoirs (which then infect humans again along a new vector and so forth).
The good thing is that is appears to be following the science of all long lived viruses which is to become less lethal (i.e. not Ebola, more like SARS/H1N1 which is now actually part of what people refer to as 'the flu') so that they can actually spread (again, see Ebola vs the flu).
However this also means since it will never truly be eradicated (also like other coronaviruses like the flu/cold) this gives bad actors a way to claim a constant state of emergency to retain unjust emergency powers (even though there is no emergency).
Not only that. If the threshold needed for herd immunity is 80% (and that was before delta even, not to say omicron), and vaccines are about 60% effective at stopping transmission (NOTE: I said TRANSMISSION, not HOSPITALIZATION), then... yeah, we're not getting anywhere close to herd immunity with that, even with 100% vaccination rate.
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The existing covid vaccine with a third dose booster shot is 90% effective against even omicron. Some of the best vaccines in the world (with applicable boosters) come in at around that as well. Most, however, do not. Of course, most vaccines don't really provide any measure of herd immunity either.
But measles, whose vaccine might certainly be on par with the covid vaccine for effectiveness, has an R value of more than 14, while even omicron currently has an R value of only 4.5 (delta had a peak R valu
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Agree on the above points ...
But not this one ...
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Which vaccines?
The vaccines that turn you into a gay frog.
Re:This Hour, on Covid Dot... (Score:5, Funny)
Which vaccines?
The vaccines that turn you into a gay frog.
That is just in Quebec. In other provinces you may end up a beaver, or a moose.
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A moose once bit my sister... No really! She was carving her initials on the moose with the sharpened end of an interspace toothbrush given her by Svenge - her brother-in-law - an Oslo dentist and star of many Norwegian movies: "The Hot Hands of an Oslo Dentist", "Fillings of Passion", "The Huge Molars of Horst Nordfink"...
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Which vaccines?
The vaccines that turn you into a gay frog.
That is just in Quebec. In other provinces you may end up a beaver, or a moose.
No that's France. In Quebec, it turns you into a gay toad that thinks it's a frog.
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The mRNA vaccines all provide excellent protection against serious illness and hospitalization, for all known COVID variants. So yep, as a Canadian, I'm totally in favour of mandatory vaccination with one of the mRNA vaccines.
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The mRNA vaccines all provide excellent protection against serious illness and hospitalization, for all known COVID variants. So yep, as a Canadian, I'm totally in favour of mandatory vaccination with one of the mRNA vaccines.
So what you're saying is you're totally in favor of violating the unvaccinated's human rights and constitutional rights? Don't you believe in rights and aren't you afraid these rights you're willing to give away for no good reason might be useful in future? I live in a province that says it has 9 people out of a million in the ICU right now due to Covid. Nine people! You should pull your head out of your ass.
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Since when did "vaccine" EVER mean "halts transmission"?
I've only even known it to mean "prevents serious illness for most"... and that's all they were ever supposed to do.
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Go figure.
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It was shown that people with a vaccine, as opposed to a previous infection, are (13x) more likely to be infected by a newer variant.
A DOI number would be good. Then we can read the research ourselves. No Twitter or Facebook please. Thanks in advance.
This vaccine is creating a breeding grounds for variants.
Variants of concern are all coming from places with low vaccination rates.
Until everyone gets infected (which shouldn't be long now with this latest variant) and herd immunity exists
Infection with Alpha or Delta does NOT provide good immunity to Omicron. And we have no idea how good the immunity from an Omicron infection will be against other variants, but there is no reason to suspect it will be any better. I would not bet on herd immunity.
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Meanwhile, in the Omi
Re:21K deaths per year so far is BULLSHIT (Score:3)
Bullshit. VAERS reported 10,688 reports of death out of 496 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines. Source is here [cdc.gov]
In that same time period, there were more than 386,000 deaths from COVID out of less than 50 million cases of COVID (I couldn't find the exact number of cases in 2021) so your odds of dying from COVID are much, much, much higher than from the vaccine, even assuming the vaccine was responsible for all of the 10K deaths.
Re:21K deaths per year so far is BULLSHIT (Score:5, Informative)
Bullshit. VAERS reported 10,688 reports of death out of 496 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines. Source is here [cdc.gov]
In that same time period, there were more than 386,000 deaths from COVID out of less than 50 million cases of COVID (I couldn't find the exact number of cases in 2021) so your odds of dying from COVID are much, much, much higher than from the vaccine, even assuming the vaccine was responsible for all of the 10K deaths.
Reporting in VAERS on deaths after vaccinated isn't even statistics. Anyone can report to VAERS [reuters.com]. It's not limited to those in the medical community. Even better, there's no checking [reuters.com] on the reports.
VAERS cannot and does not determine whether a vaccine caused something. The CDC states this [nebraskamed.com] clearly in their disclaimer [cdc.gov]: "A report to VAERS does not mean that the vaccine caused the adverse event, only that the adverse event occurred some time after vaccination." The disclaimer continues, "The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental or unverifiable."
If 10K+ people did die from the covid vaccines you can be assured the CDC would halt their use.
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That's why I said "even assuming the vaccine was responsible for all of the 10K deaths."
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I was agreeing with you. Just putting out a bit more perspective on that 10K figure to give the whiners something else to whine about.
Whiners: "That number is correct! Over 10,000 people have died from the vaccine! The CDC site says so!"
Also whiners, "I don't care what the CDC says about the reporting! They're just hiding the truth!"
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Re:If your policy isn't working. . . (Score:4, Insightful)
. . . just keep doing the same thing, only harder. That's the government way!
The current policies are not working to a large extent due to unvaccinated people. Unvaccinated people are much more likely to get sick or die than vaccinated individuals https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination [ourworldindata.org]. There's a small complicating factor here in that there's some evidence that vaccinated individuals in general are taking Covid more seriously, more likely to mask, less likely to eat in indoor restaurants etc. so it isn't possible to definitively attribute this entire trend to vaccines, but the vast majority of it is almost certainly due to that, given how most vaccinated people are not now taking many precautions.
And yes, this is a new policy; something substantially different; making vaccines mandatory would be a change, which is exactly what you are claiming governments don't do.
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Also, Omicron is almost certainly a vaccine escape mutation and thus was mutated in the body of an infected vaccinated person who then spread it to both vaccinated and unvaccinated peers.
A) No. We have no reason to believe that specifically. B) So what? Even if it were true, why would that be relevant?
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There are still too many unknowns to say if vaccines are the way out of this. The do reduce the severity of the virus, and they do make it harder to pass on, but Omicron is more infectious.
Death isn't the only long term symptom though. Long COVID is hell. So we don't know if living with it is viable.
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You have that backwards. 3292 UNvaccinated vs 457 vaccinated.
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Oops. Thanks for the correction.
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Here's British data for Delta variant, unvaccinated were 4.3 less likely to die:
I'm struggling to see how you are getting that from the data in question. What page are you looking at?
New variants evolved because of the vaccine
What? No. This is not at all how this works. Viruses mutate constantly. The more copies of a virus are, the more opportunities it has to mutate. Whether there are vaccines in play or not isn't relevant to that. No virus is able to look around and say "Oh, hey, they already put out a vaccine, I better go and mutate."
evolve much faster than new vaccines can be created.
This is false. The primary problem right now with new vaccines is not creation but approval.
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We don't have a vaccine for Omicron.
The general vaccine works pretty well for preventing hospitalization or death due to Omicron. It would certainly be good to have an Omicron specific booster, and I'm pretty annoyed that that isn't an option.
Wearing cloth masks doesn't do anything. The only people taking this seriously and actually avoiding infection are people wearing N95 masks, glasses, and making sure they clean their hands when they touch stuff/interact with other humans in enclosed spaces.
Cloth masks work. They don't work as well as N95s, but evidence is that they really do work. https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118 [pnas.org]. It is true that given Omicron, the difference between cloth masks and N-95s/KN-95s becomes much more extreme, but the cloth mask still helps. (I have no idea what
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. . . just keep doing the same thing, only harder. That's the government way!
Mandating vaccines is not doing the same thing, it is addressing the primary reason the current policy isn't working. The current policy is too reliant on citizen responsibility, which hasn't worked well. Too many irresponsible people choosing to not get vaccinated.
The part of the current policy which is working very well is limiting hospitalization and death among the vaccinated, which is why any change in policy is likely to be focused on increasing vaccination rates. The thing which will make Covid-19 be
Re:A bit too authoritarian (Score:5, Informative)
Mandatory Vaccine requirements are a level road in well traveled legal territory. Even in Canada.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... [nih.gov]
Re: A bit too authoritarian (Score:2)
Thats for children, not adults. Below the age of suffrage you do what youre told because you dont have the wherewithal to make sensible decisions for yourself.
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Actually, in Canada, children have the right to make their own medical decisions if a judge considers them to be mature and knowledgeable enough to make the decision. This is surprising to many people outside of Canada.
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Thats for children, not adults. Below the age of suffrage you do what youre told because you dont have the wherewithal to make sensible decisions for yourself.
But, but, parents are supposed to be the sole decision makers for their kids! (And I guess they are, they can choose whether their kids are welcomed by society or not ).
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Yes, you can. Your logical error is the false dichotomy, along with implicitly changing what you mean by "work" and "don't work."
The vaccines work to substantially reduce the likelihood of hospitalization and death. If you use only that meaning of "work", then they work.
The vaccines neither work to prevent asymptomatic or mild illness nor work perfectly. If you use only part or all of that mean
Re: A bit too authoritarian (Score:2)
It's not false. If the vaccines work you dont need to worry about ending up I hospital so no need to fret over the antivaxer sitting next to you on the bus.
Re: A bit too authoritarian (Score:4, Informative)
The problem arises when hospitals are overwhelmed with anti-vaxxers to the point that I cannot get medical attention if I'm hit by a car or need cancer treatment or whatever. At that point, the anti-vaxxers' selfishness has harmed me.
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It is false. Feeling like crap at home, missing work for most of a week, and potentially spreading it to the rest of my household is an injury. Just as surely as if I were to blindly flail my arms and strike you in the face with my fist. The fact that the antivaxxer doesn't intend that I catch it (except when they do [nydailynews.com]) doesn't change that.
Re:A bit too authoritarian (Score:5, Informative)
Vaccinations are not that effective at stopping the spread of COVID. They are very effective at reducing the severity of COVID and the need for hospitalization.
Health care resources are limited, and society has a right (I'd say a duty) to safeguard those resources so that everyone who needs health care can access it. And if safeguarding those resources means imposing a vaccine mandate, then hell yeah... impose the mandate.
Re: A bit too authoritarian (Score:5, Insightful)
Any decision has to weigh the harm and the good. The harm from vaccines is negligible and the good is enormous. Therefore it's morally acceptable. The harm from euthanizing people against their will is enormous, so we don't do it.
Stop making "slippery slope" arguments, because they're bullshit. The situations are not comparable.
Re: A bit too authoritarian (Score:4, Interesting)
Dont justify authoritarianism by vague handwaving appeals to reducing load on medical services.
In other words, fuck the medical staff who've been working non-stop for the past two years taking care of the dead and dying, who are themselves dying from covid while attending to the unvaxxed, who have had enough of selfish pricks proudly saying they're not vaxxed, won't get vaxxed, but dammit, fill them with drugs to keep them alive after they contracted covid.
Euthanizing sick old people would also reduce the load too.
Don't worry, the anti-vaxxers [imgur.com] are doing their part [yahoo.com] to reduce the load [imgur.com].
Re: (Score:3)
And before anyone pipes up about what about the people they infect - well if those people are vaccinated and the vaccines work as well as we're told then what's the problem?
Vaccines only reduce the risk of hospitalization and death by about 20x, people who can’t be vaxed due to medical reasons are at high risk and those over 60 are also at high risk even if vaxed because all versions of covid become quite lethal as you age. People 5 and under still can’t be vaxed in most places due to lack of consensus on dosing and can still have long term damage from infection. A persons right to allow themselves to be taken over by a virus ends when they try to breathe out h
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They don't care about the good of the society they live in, society really has no reason to care about them in return. And we increasingly don't.
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I would understand a vaccine mandate to be just that... making people ineligible to participate in most public activities and workplaces. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting a vaccine mandate that involves people holding someone down and forcibly injecting them.
Antivaxxers should simply be ineligible to go into any public places except those offering essential services, ineligible to receive unemployment benefits, and ineligible to work except from home.
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...and ineligible to work except from home.
You say that as if it's a bad thing. I could get on board with that!
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Yeah, I love working from home too, but not everyone can. It would be a serious hardship for many, so it would be a good incentive to get vaccinated.
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The issue is not whether the vaccines work or not. It is whether all the ICU beds are full and is there space to accommodate non-COVID hospitalizations. Who do you treat? Is it ethical to admit a vaccinated person and refuse the antivaxer? Where does it stop?
There is ample proof that the vaccines work. There needs to be a consequence for those who don't participate in keeping people safe. Just like fines for not wearing your seatbelt.
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I've no time for anti vax morons, but a person's body is their own to do with as they want and forcing medical procedures on to adults is something even dictatorships baulk at.
Never will understand why people forget their history. [nih.gov] Also you'll never hear a "my rights" person defend their responsibilities, to themselves, or others. Not to mention COVID-19 doesn't give a damn about any rights.
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This is a very slippery slope.
All slippery slope arguments are ridiculous. A good way to see if you have thought something through well enough is to see if you are accidentally (or intentionally) using a slippery slope argument in your reasoning. If you are, spend some more time thinking through your position.
well if those people are vaccinated and the vaccines work as well as we're told then what's the problem? If the vaccines work then no need to worry
Also, if you ever think that someone becoming vaccinated is sufficient without also having enough people in their community becoming vaccinated as well, you need to learn more about how vaccinations work and are successful.
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It's not about vaccinated vs. unvaccinated anymore, it's about the unvaccinated vs. the healthcare system.
Our nurses and doctors are burnt out. We have fewer people working in the hospitals now and the surges keep coming. Every unvaccinated person that walks in with pneumonia is now not just a danger to themselves, they're taking up a bed and precious resources and time that can't be used for the rest of us for our ordinary lives. Everything is on hold, including some surgeries that are for important things
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[A] persons body is there own to do with as they want ...
I agree completely.
Maybe we can rephrase the issue: you may do as you please with your body, but if you choose to remain unvaccinated then you will not be able to participate fully in polite society. No in-person schooling, no access to bars or restaurants, you must hire someone to do your shopping for you. Forget about theaters, concerts, stadiums or any group activity. You don't get priority treatment at the ER over vaccinated folks.
Would you be fine with that? I think not. But look at what is really
Re: (Score:2)
Alberta's Premier Jason Kenny [h]as already stated that Alberta will not make vaccines mandatory
Kenny is a conservative tool that served under former Prime Minister (nick named Prime Monster) Stephen Harper. That whole group were a bunch of quacks that we thankfully got rid of years ago, but unfortunately for Alberta, Kenny decided to go ruin that province, having failed in trying to ruin the whole of Canada at the federal level.
Fun fact on Kenney. He actually did manage to rig an election in the form of the UPC nomination contest by running a puppet candidate to hurt his rival [wikipedia.org] and literally stealing people's votes [www.cbc.ca].
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Re: (Score:2)
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.
FTFY
Re: (Score:2)
They don't stop you from getting COVID. They stop you from experiencing meaningful symptoms. That's absolute gravy for big pharma. It's why there is no big pharma Manhattan Project to get a traditional, sterilizing vaccine.
Actually there is exactly that. It was reported here in /. just recently.
https://science.slashdot.org/s... [slashdot.org]
Enjoy your biannual software--I mean mRNA--updates.
If they keep people from dying, that is good enough for me. I'll keep getting my boosters, worst case it will become an annual thing like the flu shot.
And if new variants of COVID keeps killing anti-vaxxers slowly but surely for decades to come, I won't feel terribly bad about that. It will take time, but eventually it will tip some scales.