A Report Detailed the Tech Gap Between China and the US. Then It Disappeared. 85
schwit1 writes: China and the United States are in a race to develop the newest, hottest technologies of the 21st century as a technological decoupling looms. But the effects won't be felt equally -- according to a new report from one of China's most prestigious think tanks, a full-blown tech decoupling will be even worse for China in the end. The Peking University Institute of International and Strategic Studies (IISS) published its findings just days before the new year -- China's biggest holiday -- and the beginning of the 2022 Beijing Olympics. The introspective report clashed with the festive vibes spreading across the country, as it concluded China will come out worse than the U.S. as tech competitions continue to escalate between the two nations. "Both the U.S. and China will lose from 'decoupling,'" the researchers wrote. "And at this point, it looks like China's loss may be greater." The report was pulled from the internet within a few days of its publication, but by then, the text of the piece, titled, "U.S.-China Strategic Competition in Technology," had already circulated widely on the Chinese internet. The IISS didn't respond to Protocol's request for comment.
Nobody snagged an archive.is link? (Score:3, Insightful)
If someone here has one, kindly share it!
Re:Speak negatively about China. Then you disappea (Score:5, Insightful)
It not really fair to equivocate China and Taiwan. Taiwan has been a trusted nation in terms of technology, IP law and business cooperation for decades.
Also China likely wants to ditch it's reputation as "We'll just steal your tech" as then less and less corporations the world over will avoid doing business there, as is already happening to a small degree now. Indonesia, Vietnam, Malaysia and lot's of other ecnomically rising nations are happy to snap up those manufacturing contracts and point out how much more trustworthy they will be with yor IP than China.
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Indonesia, Vietnam, Malaysia and lot's of other ecnomically rising nations are happy to snap up those manufacturing contracts and point out how much more trustworthy they will be with yor IP than China.
And even if they're likely to be lying, we know what happens when you send your designs to China, at least with these other nations there's a chance that it won't happen, or that if it does, there will be some recourse since they aren't as powerful and independent as China (even if China isn't as independent as it wants [other people] to believe it is.)
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Indonesia, Vietnam, Malaysia and lot's of other ecnomically rising nations are happy to snap up those manufacturing contracts and point out how much more trustworthy they will be with yor IP than China.
I believe you have a fundamental misunderstanding how an asian mind ticks.
Perhaps you want to read up about the colonizaion history of "western" countries in Asia.
We < are the arch enemy. They want revenge. Does not really matter which country it is. Farang, White devils (brining black devils, too), Gaijin
Re: Speak negatively about China. Then you disappe (Score:5, Interesting)
I have not read the report, obviously, but my guess is that this is pretty much what it was about. China copy machines work so well because the US is getting so many things manufactured there. If the manufacturing moves back to outside of areas controlled by China they will only have corporate espionage left to do the copying.
It takes a while to tune high tech to work properly, with good yields and strict tolerance. When the manufacturing is done in China, the local workforce is trained with all the knowledge necessary for the high quality results: what details matter and which ones are irrelevant to the process.
For example when European car manufacturers entered the Chinese market, they had to produce parts locally including windshields. They got manufactured with horrendous distortion for the driver (curved glass will do that), and they had to go at length on how to properly manufacture a windshield to be safe to use. This gave China a leap forward on how to manufacture good windshields. Rince and repeat for all parts in a car, now China has an automotive industry that is capable to build cars that are as good as their European counterparts.
Does that mean they make them as good and to the same specs? Probably not, but now they can if they wanted to.
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Re:Nobody snagged an archive.is link? (Score:4, Informative)
Found the original Chinese text here:
https://uscnpm.org/2022/02/06/... [uscnpm.org]
Re:Nobody snagged an archive.is link? (Score:4, Informative)
Nice!
I made a translated archive of the archive, incase we lose the archive.
https://archive.is/a2rIO [archive.is]
Does not make sense (Score:3)
China has censorship. That means they had to get permission before publishing.
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Utter bullshit. No wonder you won't put your real name to this absolute load of hogwash.
Re:Does not make sense (Score:5, Insightful)
I can say "Fuck Biden." I can say "Fuck Trump." I can even say "destroy capitalism and replace it with socialism." Nobody will stop me, or hide my post. You will read it. You may even respond, proving my point that the post was not hidden. Neither of us will be killed. That is the difference between the US and China. No one will stop me from being critical of my country. In China, they will stop you.
Try to explain what you think might trigger this imaginary cancellation you fear, and who might be doing the cancelling. I predict you will not have a coherent reply. It will be hand waving, more whataboutism, totally made up bullshit with no evidence, or silence from you.
Now, try to say "China murdered protesters in Tiananmen Square on the 4th of June, 1989" in China. See what happens.
That's the difference. Chinese people are not allowed to even think about the Tiananmen Square massacre because it is a stark example proving that China is in no way communist or socialist. Those protesters wanted workers to control the means of production, like Marx said, not "the Party." China killed them for being actual, real socialist revolutionaries, because China is just gangster capitalism pretending to be socialist. "The Chinese Communist Party" is just another capitalist owning class clique.
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Fuck you buddy, people say that dumb ass shit all the time. You just said it. For fucks sake do you not see that you just contradicted your central thesis? No one stopped you. No one removed your post. Damn, you are really feeble minded. Proving yourself wrong in your own argument, after I literally predicted that that is what you would do? Pathetic.
And no, me expressing my opinion that you are a grade a moron is not censorship. It's free speech.
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Bullshit, and you know it., You aren't arguing in good faith, you are lying for funsies, and it is pathetically obvious. There is nothing you can say that will make me believe that you believe DHS will come for you for what you said.
-1 votes from others are not censorship you twat. Not even close to suppressing your free speech. I read at -1, others have that option as well, your posts aren't remove, just marked with someone else's free speech. That's what that downvote is, someone else using free speech to
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proving that China is in no way communist or socialist.
Oh, they are.
They're leninists. (Well, technically, they're maoists, but that's just a branch of leninism), which is vanguard-party communism.
vanguard-party anything ultimately results in a government that is essentially fascist in nature, regardless of economic model, or egalitarian goals.
The point you're trying to make, that Communism isn't that isn't quite right. Lenin got his idea for a vanguard party from Marx, as if you distill the concept of dicatatorship of the proletariat, you're ultimately lef
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Dictatorship of anything is bad, period. Vanguard party is just another form of control by elites.
Yeah, technically you are right, but Marx insisted that the vanguard would dissolve itself after achieving its goals. He may have been a litle bit naive on that point...
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It's true that Marx envisioned it to be a temporary state. And ya, I think history showed he was probably a bit naive on that point.
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There is another problem: Censorship is _always_ before publishing, never after. Censorship means that you have to get permission before publishing anything.
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Looks like we found the last half-witted Epoch Times reader to believe this crapola.
You don't have to say "Tiananmen Square" because it's in a chapter of the main Chinese high school History text book.
Your brain would only be worth harvesting for the shit content.
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Good one bud. What does that chapter say? Which book? You know what? Don't even bother. It's all lies and we all know it.
Chinese grasp of propaganda is geared towards Chinese citizens and authoritarian culture. You have no idea how to propagandize a free people who are used to having their own opinions. Your efforts are so ham-handed I can't even. It's almost funny. But then I remember the dead Uyghurs, and it's not funny at all.
Do better, China. Your four thousand year history is full of glory, art, scien
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You just said that. What happened to you? Did you get "cancelled?" Oh, nothing happened? Amazing.
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You just said that you absolute mouth breathing window licking short bus riding fool. And you have not been cancelled.
You assholes are out there cancelling books like "Maus" for real, and when someone chooses not to use their free speech rights and property rights to amplify your message, you call THAT "being caancelled." But it's just someone else using their property and free speech rights how they want to.
Once again you prove you don't want rights for all, you want license for yourself.
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It's true. If you are a Chinese emigrant and have family in China, the Chinese authorities will use them as a lever of control against you. They will hurt your family if you speak badly about China.
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What a low effort comeback. No social credits for you, and the CCP will be harvesting a random family member's organs next week due to your failure.
So, why do you guys just accept the fact that the workers do not have control of the means of production? After achieving socialist revolution, the vanguard party is supposed to dissolve itself, to enable the final form of a stateless socialist utopia. And yet, your vanguard party maintains firm control, and will not let the workers control the means of product
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So what?
Just as long you are not publishing information that makes the party look bad, it gets green-lighted as it will show Chinese superiority.
If it has a military use, it might get blocked, but that will happen in the US as well.
Truth be told if you are scientist and don't care about the politics, and are willing to keep your thoughts about politics to yourself, China is a good place to work.
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My point is that if the simplistic political explanation were true, it would not have been published in the first place, not removed later.
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And America has speed limits on highways so 100% of cars drive at or below the marked speed right?
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But not everyone agrees all the time. Obviously someone high up did not feel it should have been published.
Probably. But that requires a more complex and detailed explanation as the one given.
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China has censorship. That means they had to get permission before publishing.
Not necessarily. A lot of themes are censored by default (e.g. Tibet, Tank Man [wikipedia.org] or Winnie the Pooh). However, many publications written in a technical or analytic fashion do get published or uploaded and only removed when some higher authority decides the material to be harmful to the national interest (in the one-party totalitarian sense of the word). This is how the world got to know of Covid-19 before the PRC acknowledged it had a full-blown epidemic in its hands. A couple of independent reports were "al
"Then it disappeared." (Score:5, Insightful)
The report, or the group authored it?
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The report, or the group authored it?
The group joined the China Tennis team and ...
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or the tech gap? the headline is a good example of pronoun abuse
Re:"Then it disappeared." (Score:4, Insightful)
On first reading I thought it was "the Tech Gap" that had disappeared.
:D
Isn't English great.
One runs harder when they are behind the leader (Score:5, Insightful)
Americans are not as exceptional as they think they are.
After WWII where Europe and Asia were in ruin, America became a major super power, with the exception of Pearl Harbor in Hawaii, our infrastructure was in place, and being a rather young country rather up to date and modern, with room to expand and grow, as well we were able to acquire a lot of extra brain power from our defeated enemies, as well from those who were trying to escape the troubles of their countries. America was the leader in Economic, Military, Science, Technology, Education, mostly due to luck of geography of being hard to hit 80 years ago,
Shortly after that with the Cold War, a lot of countries either sided with us, and the USSR had acquired other nations to be their allies, then countries like China mostly tried to stay out of the spotlight, while they went over to communism, they weren't a strong ally with the USSR
Nixon started trade relations with China, which got them onto the market, however they were behind, however a taste of capitalism and growing businesses and getting new stuff, was attractive, so they went of an economic growth kick. First by being a low cost alternative for manufacturing, then with that money, they were able to attract Scientist and Engineers to start improving what they have.
While America had set the pace, we had the likes of Japan 40 years ago, race up behind us, and perhaps get ahead of us a few time, then fall back, now China has been upping its speed and perhaps going to pass the the United States. and Unlike Japan, which was a small country with limited resources, China has more people then the US, about the same amount of land and access to resource, They could indeed have a lead and keep it much longer then our previous rivals might had.
Re:One runs harder when they are behind the leader (Score:5, Insightful)
That may be, but China is heavily reliant on exporting for its economic success. It is still a long ways away from a self-supporting economic engine (to be honest, there are very few if any countries on the planet that can run on their own steam). But as the synopsis points out, while "decoupling" represents significant economic risks for both the US and China, it is China that is significantly more at risk if the US (and likely ultimately many developed countries) start to repatriate or pool together industrial and technical capacity. The skepticism amongst many Western governments over the value versus geopolitical costs of having offshored manufacturing to East Asia has grown greatly since the Clinton years of rapprochement with China. It has not brought the political liberalization that Clinton and other Western counterparts have hoped, but have simply given China a ready stream of cash to build up military capability, threaten its neighbors and effectively economically colonize countries as far as Africa and Latin America.
Even worse, as supply chain disruptions due to the pandemic have revealed, this reliance on China and other Asian countries as the new "rust belt" for the West have created dangerous pinch points which, given the right combination of events, can wallop the West. It's inevitable at this point that many Western governments, the US included, are going to redirect a great deal of economic output into rebuilding industrial and manufacturing capacity that was left to rot because Asia could provide goods a lot cheaper.
It's sad in a way. The dream of a integrated global economy, free trade that would create economic inter-reliance that would make major conflicts between major powers, was the post-war dream. But with Russia ready to pounce into Ukraine, threaten energy stability in Europe, China threatening Taiwan, the vision of an economically united world fades. Because the opposite of globalization isn't a good thing either, and is at least partially responsible for some of the most significant conflicts of the first half of the 20th century.
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Like will people in US agree to work for as much compensation as average Chinese? NO!
But what makes you think that the average middle-income Chinese of today will work for as LESS compensation as their parents or older relatives. You forget your economic history. The average American or English worker of the 19th century were also willing to work under what we now consider slave labor conditions. With economic progress comes rising expectations.
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Not only was America 'able to acquire a lot of extra brain power from our defeated enemies' , America also had a one-way 'sharing' of aerodynamic, computing and atomic research with their allies. Thanks, America. Such a special relationship.
Re:One runs harder when they are behind the leader (Score:5, Insightful)
Americans are not as exceptional as they think they are.
Sure, but China is not as exceptional as their government acts like it is. Their primary technical competence is in copying things. They're actually amazingly good at it. But they literally have a whole system of government dedicated to not threatening the established order, which makes them inferior at development and exploitation of new technologies, because new technologies frequently threaten the established order. It's not because Chinese people are dumber, it's because Chinese government is more afraid of change. The same sort of thing happens everywhere, what differs is the degree.
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I never implied that China was exceptional. On paper, China should be able to completely obliterate the US economy in nearly every aspect. However it is a close #2 with us.
You give the average guy a bike, they can compete in a race with an athlete who is running.
if the athlete has a bike, they will be able to get some real speed.
China has a lot of real advantages, however a lot of the aspects of their government is holding them back. However when competing against America, their advantages are seemingly
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China has a lot of real advantages, however a lot of the aspects of their government is holding them back. However when competing against America, their advantages are seemingly better then the troubles with the government.
Certainly they have taken advantage of our greed, which is less tempered by long-term planning for dominance than theirs. However, as stated in the report, they have more to lose than we do from trade withdrawal. We have suffered with job loss and decreasing quality of goods increasing waste and decreasing efficiency, and this has only resulted in an acceleration of the race to the bottom which is runaway capitalism.
I'm not anticapitalist, I only believe that capitalism requires extensive regulation to be s
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it's because Chinese government is more afraid of change.
It is only afraid of change in the political system. (And they actually plan to change it, but they focus on economic change at the moment)
Everything else is free and fair game.
They do not like critics, because they like master plans. And changing a plan all the time because of critics makes the plan fail more often than less. And that produces a self fulfilling spiral or: we told you so.
As long as you mind your own business - or as long as you are p
Re: One runs harder when they are behind the leade (Score:2)
"As long as you mind your own business - or as long as you are part of the actively working party - a Chinese is as free as every westerner."
If only you were smart enough to know what epic level of bullshit that statement is. As long as you don't expect freedom, you are free? That is absolutely not how freedom works.
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You are free to do what you want as long as you obey the laws.
And you have everything you need: so they are in a certain perspective more free than you.
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You are free to do what you want as long as you obey the laws.
Some of those laws are actively anti-freedom, and seem to serve no other purpose. We need automatic law expiry.
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"A Report Detailed the Tech Gap Between..." (Score:3)
"China and the US. Then It Disappeared." The gap or the report?
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from the abstract:
The report was pulled from the internet within a few days of its publication
i would like to see the study, but the "findings" seem pretty bizarre. of course lack of cooperation harms everyone, but the cat is already out of the bag and china is very much capable now in terms of innovation, research and technology, surpassing the us in several areas.
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I'll bite
well, i won't.
What is this "decoupling" they speak of? (Score:2)
Hard to find any explanation on what that is and how it will affect China and the US...
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Found it:
Technological decoupling—broadly defined as the undoing of cross-border trade in high-tech goods and services—has been associated with concerns about intellectual property protection, data privacy, and national security concerns as well as a renewed attention to industrial policies.
So taking the Huawei example, by banning their products there are cascading effects in China on education, experience, skilled developers, etc.
The argument was basically that in light of these kinds of things, ultimately China would be hurt from the decoupling efforts more than the US would.
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Actually here is a much, MUCH more wiki entry than anybody could provide offhand:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
It's strange to me that I don't see the connection being made beteween inflation and trade wars. We went over there to get stuff made for cheap, and as we re-t
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It's strange to me that I don't see the connection being made beteween inflation and trade wars. We went over there to get stuff made for cheap, and as we re-trench, stuff will get more expensive.
That hasn't happened yet, though. We know that because the corporations are raising prices, and reporting record profits. When they raise prices and don't have record profits, then we'll know that what you're talking about is happening.
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Maybe it's good that certain stuff do get expensive.
Yes, prices and wages both need to rise. But no one is clear on how to rein in corporate greed without torches and pitchforks. Right now the largest corporations are posting record profits and blaming their rising prices on the pandemic. This is morally bankrupt by every measurement but capitalism isn't interested in morality.
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Obviously... (Score:2)
No links in this discussion to the paper? (Score:2)
Something smells. No links to the paper yet...I suspect Slashdot is removing posts with the various archival links.
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U.S.-China Strategic Competition in Technology (Score:2)
U.S.-China Strategic Competition in Technology: Analysis and Prospects.
I have saved a PDF of the Google Translated version of the document (https://uscnpm.org/2022/02/06/pku-iiss-2022-report-tech-competition/). Original link to the Chinese language document was kindly posted earlier by GameboyRMH.
The PDF is here:
https://mega.nz/file/0pcAjRqL#0LM2aLhf3JFiEzWyMrKGAxPJbXoP-1VaPPc_iwn60gU
It seems like a coherent analysis from the Chinese point of view. In that regard, it's quite illuminating.