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United States China Technology

US Expects Chinese Tech Firms To Help Choke Off Russia Supply (bloomberg.com) 174

Posted by msmash from the how-about-that dept.
Washington is expected to lean on major Chinese companies from Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp to Lenovo to join U.S.-led sanctions against Russia, aiming to cripple the country's ability to buy key technologies and components. From a report: China is Russia's biggest supplier of electronics, accounting for a third of its semiconductor imports and more than half of its computers and smartphones. Beijing has opposed the increasingly severe measures that the U.S. has taken to restrict Russia's trade and economy in response to its invasion of Ukraine, however U.S. officials expect tech suppliers such as SMIC to uphold the new rules and curtail trade of sensitive technology with American origin, especially as it relates to Russia's defense sector. Any items produced with certain U.S. inputs, including American software and designs, are subject to the ban, even if they are made overseas, a U.S. official told Bloomberg News on Monday. Companies that attempt to evade these new controls would face the prospect of themselves being cut off from U.S.-origin technology and corporate executives risk going to jail for violations.
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US Expects Chinese Tech Firms To Help Choke Off Russia Supply More

US Expects Chinese Tech Firms To Help Choke Off Russia Supply

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  • No real predictions here - other than China will play both sides to whatever degree they can. If anyone thinks Chinese firms ( always under threat greater CCP control if they are not state run already ) or the PRC itself is going to do anything other than what they think is good for China, they are delusional.

    One thing is certain if China 'sacrifices' anything its not in pursuit of some Western values. It might be in defense of some territorial norm they think supports their actions in the South China Sea,

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      This is just further motivation for China to replace US payment processing systems, which are the main mechanism by which the US exerts this kind of control. Basically you implement US sanctions or they stop your payments and freeze your assets. Maybe even try to extradite some of your staff, as they did with Huawei.

      Lenovo is just caught in the middle of it. I don't know how business they do in Russia, but it's probably not worth fighting this one over.

      • It doesn't matter how much business Lenovo (or any other company) does today. Given that Russia can no longer afford to buy anything, it's in the suppliers' best interest to participate. They will draw ire of the world if they don't. Russia can't buy very much. And there's a huge non-payment risk. The Russian market is now so small that, even without sanctions, it might not be worth doing business there.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Rob Y. ( 110975 )

          Well, given that they've already signed up to buy all the gas and oil Russia can supply, it wouldn't appear Xi cares too much what the world thinks of his business partners. I imagine the Chinese (or US) currency China uses to pay for their hydrocarbons will have more value than Rubles - though I don't know how it'll get into the hands of customers for Lenovo products.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Klaxton ( 609696 )

        Limiting the export of US technology isn't at all the same thing as payment processing.

      • These rules apply to companies using US software, products, or designs. This is not a pure Chinese company using only Chinese inputs. If Lenova wants to keep using US inputs, and sell to US in return, it needs to comply. The PRC could intervene and say "screw the US!" but it's doubtful.

        • Take a minute and think about this Potsy. Where is this stuff made? China. Does the U.S. want to be cut off from Chinese manufacturing? I don't think so.

          China is hold all the cards. The U.S. has nothing.

    • So the simple answer is to add a lot of carrot to the stick. Offer to donate certain technological know-how and reduce sanctions.

      A real and immediate threat should be higher priority than a speculative (however likely) future threat.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ranton ( 36917 )

      China won't participate in sanctions against Russia, but that isn't what is being discussed here. This is the US dealing with Chinese companies. There is still at least a slight difference between the two. A significant portion of Chinese electronics will have some US software and parts in them, which includes contractual agreements with US companies. Pressure can be applied here regardless of the official Chinese government position.

      It will be interesting to see how this plays out. It could help accelerate

  • The best way to do that is to be his ally. After that I'm sure they will enjoy taking as much of Siberia as they can.

  • China has stated repeatedly that "China only cares about China." which means they aren't going to take any actions that will make trade relations worst. What this means is that unless other nations are willing to apply pressure (e.g. threats of larger consequences) to Chinese companies then they are not going to lift a finger.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by sinij ( 911942 )
      Exactly. China benefits from Russia being dependent on it.

      • Exactly. China benefits from Russia being dependent on it.

        China is going to need allies with more food production capacity than Russia if it's going to survive the next decades as AGW decreases arable land worldwide.

    • Any items produced with certain U.S. inputs, including American software and designs, are subject to the ban, even if they are made overseas, a U.S. official told Bloomberg News on Monday. Companies that attempt to evade these new controls would face the prospect of themselves being cut off from U.S.-origin technology and corporate executives risk going to jail for violations.

      they aren't going to take any actions that will make trade relations worst. What this means is that unless other nations are willing to apply pressure (e.g. threats of larger consequences) to Chinese companies then they are not going to lift a finger.

      Tell us you didn't read the summary without telling us you didn't read the summary.

    • They're also not going to take a stand on the only country that will support their possible invasion of Taiwan.

      • They're also not going to take a stand on the only country that will support their possible invasion of Taiwan.

        Oh, I think what is unfolding in Ukraine is going to change a lot of people's mind on how wars will be fought in the future with a particular emphasis on the wisdom of attacking an opponent that is able to saturate the battlefield with guided missiles and drones. It's been suggested previously that Taiwan should put less emphasis on getting F-35s for the air force and rely more on a missile and drone heavy defence with a particular emphasis on saturating the battle space with anti-air and anti-ship missiles

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Jzanu ( 668651 )
          Exactly. This war shows that tanks are largely obsolete, at least those that are not integrated with information systems including satellites and battlefield observations platforms (maneuverable atmospheric satellites, etc.) that give them greater use. Drones also as demonstrated by Azerbaijan can simply destroy the simpler tanks. Manned fighters are a bit harder sell than before, since the benefit of being able to control the firing of weapons without a communications link by training pilots and having the

          • Exactly. This war shows that tanks are largely obsolete, at least those that are not integrated with information systems including satellites and battlefield observations platforms (maneuverable atmospheric satellites, etc.) that give them greater use. Drones also as demonstrated by Azerbaijan can simply destroy the simpler tanks. Manned fighters are a bit harder sell than before, since the benefit of being able to control the firing of weapons without a communications link by training pilots and having them present can't be replaced. AI controlled drones are improving and Turkey has models using automatic swarming behavior that are like flying minefields that make the need for guaranteed communications less important as long as the right behavior can be ensured.

            I would't go that far. Tanks are still useful as long as you don't deploy them in multiple kilometre long traffic jams like our friend and über alpha male Vladimir Vladimirovich is doing. Furthermore, what the Russians have sent to the Ukraine are not exactly their brand new T-14 Armata and their most modern and highly upgraded T-80/90 tanks. Most of what I've seen so far is T-72s with ERA a generation or more old and with old electronics and no active protection and APCs that often seem to be in a hor

        • Taiwan is also an island nation whereas Ukraine has large borders to defend and is much more vulnerable to encirclement. Also Taiwan essentially has a defense agreement with the US so any amphibious invasion of Taiwan has to first deal with the US Navy which means getting around probably 3 carrier groups, air support from Guam, Okinawa, Korea, god knows how many submarines. Plus even if you do land on Taiwan proper there is still the prospect of a hostile populace in an foreign environment of gruesome urb

      • They're also not going to take a stand on the only country that will support their possible invasion of Taiwan.

        China is probably watching with interest, as they now have some idea what the world will do to them should they invade Taiwan; ban their airlines, freeze their assets, embargo their goods, and remove them from SWIFT and any other international organizations. These things would hurt China much, much more than they are hurting Russia.

        They would also hurt people here who rely on cheap Chinese goods for sure, but like reducing reliance on Russian oil and gas it would be short term pain for long term gain.

    • If China cares about China, then they should realize that cutting Russia is a better loss than cutting the US and Western Europe. As well if China helps the West in this current conflict, then chances are the West may be more open for more trade with them, and cutting the current trend to restricting trade with China.

      China is in competition with the West, but they are not the Enemy of the west. However like with WWII and the Cold War, During crisis allies amongst enemies formed against a larger problem. A

      • Exactly, China may well volunteer to be the UN Peacekeeping force stationed in the former Russian Federation, in return for mineral rights, before too long.
        • Yeah, the US and China can agree on peaceful cooperation and maintaining the peace together. China can get paid in minerals and the US will gladly accept oil for food.
      • China cares about China. China is going to wait to take sides as long as possible to ensure that they take the side of the winner.

      • If China cares about China, then they should realize that cutting Russia is a better loss than cutting the US and Western Europe.

        Sure... but it's likely they will simply make "another company" and then sell it to Russia under their name.

        It works something like this:
        * The Chinese government will give this other company A money to buy goods from Company B.
        * Company B will sell goods from Company A to Russia.
        * Company A will say they can't stop Company B and the US should only cut off Company B.
        * US will suspend trade with Company A.
        * China will bring up unfair trade practices to WTO.
        * WTO will place an injunction on the US blocking Com

  • Didn't we share classified intel with China, only to have them turn around and give it to Russia?

    Why do we keep relying on China to be our ally? They're not. Demonstrably so.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by DarkOx ( 621550 )

      In fairness to the Biden admin here: Everything is "classified" even stuff that is mostly public knowledge, our government is down right silly with the stuff it stamps 'secret' on and has been for decades.

      That Russia was massing for an invasion and that we could tell and how we could tell was likely not very high level intel and probably came mostly from assets Russia already knew we had or already had to reasonably assume we had. By sharing it with China we assured ourselves the Chinese were aware of the

      • Sharing it with China? It was on the front page of every newspaper weeks and months in advance! We might not have declassified *how* we got the intel, but we broadcast around the world that we knew!

        • Yup, and there was talk that this was deliberately shared to surprise Putin with how much we really knew.

      • Do we know what was shared with China? I can't imagine it was as meaningless as the "Russia is going to invade", because as you say that was obvious for weeks leading up to the invasion.

        Given what little we know, it was something of strategic value to both China AND Russia, if only to confirm what they suspected we knew.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by jbengt ( 874751 )
          Another possibility, of course, is that we assumed that China was going to give it to Russia, and that's why we gave them the intel.
  • ... to be addressed as "His Majesty, Cascadingstylesheet" ...

  • Russia and China want the same thing, they want the west to be buried so they can go about doing whatever evil thing they like. China isn't going to help stop a country from committing atrocities against humanity, they want the same.

    • Right now there's still a chance for Russia to succeed without further escalation. I don't like XioaDingDing - er I mean XiJinping - one bit. But he at least has the sense to act in China's best interest. If it becomes obvious that Russia is going to suffer a humiliating defeat, China will join in on the side of the victors and postpone their idea of taking Taiwan for another few years. If the invasion works out well for Russia, Taiwan will be gone the next day.

      • Right now there's still a chance for Russia to succeed without further escalation.

        There's no chance for Russia to succeed.

        If it becomes obvious that Russia is going to suffer a humiliating defeat

        The Putin regime is done. The people around him are abandoning him. Now the only question is how much Putin will take down with him.

    • China can trade with Russia or the rest of the world, not both, precisely because not stopping Russia can only mean one thing: That China wants to do the same. Note that China has pleaded to not start another cold war. That's such an odd thing to ask for in the face of a hot war that it can only be interpreted as a real fear.

    • Came here to say this. China and Russia are closely aligned ideologically, in that they're both authoritarian capitalist autocracies. They expect China to reduce their trade and harm one of their closest allies at the same time? Fat chance. What is the US gonna do if they don't comply, put sanctions on China?

      • Yeah, we can't. We are in a three-legged race with china, if they go down, we go down and vice versa.

      • What is the US gonna do if they don't comply, put sanctions on China?

        Basically, yes. A new cold war is coming. China gets to choose the side. The trade with China will not stop as quickly as it will with Russia, but if China doesn't stand with the world now, there is no long-term perspective for trade with China. Right now everybody is looking very closely how countries and their leaders react, because it will determine foreign affairs for decades.

        • Ceasing trade with China any time soon is not a realistic option, threatening to enact sanctions eventually won't mean much either. So far China is trying to both-sides the Russian invasion:

          https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/01... [cnn.com]

          • Ceasing trade with China any time soon is not a realistic option

            But winding it down over the next couple of years is, and if China gives Russia a way around the sanctions, for example by giving it an alternative to SWIFT, then China will find itself on Russia's side of the coming cold war.

    • It's a fight against authoritarianism.

  • Instead of losing credibility, standing, and power, China should assist with the neutering of Russian aggressors. The real need is pressure beyond the capacity of sanctions alone. Given the new capital controls on removing assets from Russia, the only option is direct denial, either by occupation or sabotage and demolition to destroy assets in place. China can help by occupying every Russian factory in Siberia and the Far East - and gain both prestige and territory in the process.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      China has been distancing itself from Russia for a while now. They could see this coming and didn't want to get caught up in it.

      The Chinese government isn't very happy about Russia. They see Putin as unreliable, prone to stupid military adventures and strong man bullshit. They tolerate it to the extent that they can make money in Russia. In the early days China benefitted from access to Russian space and aviation technology, but those days are long past.

      The reason they have not said much about the situation

      • The Chinese leaders (I don't like them) are a bit smarter than you portray them to be. The US has demonstrated that exerting economic control is more beneficial than military control. China would rather run that play than deal with armed conflict. But China would not object to armed conflict if it were in China's best interest. China will remain neutral until it's clear that Putin's invasion has failed and will then condemn it.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Jzanu ( 668651 )
          It is an easy and even a positive way of thinking to consider military actions as far-fetched, but it is not pragmatic especially given this situation. While it may not become a world war reaching every populated continent, this is more than a regional conflict already. It is time to plan for splitting up the potential enemies by offering greater gains than Russia can to switch the allegiance of Chinese leaders who are utterly practical. Their slogan of mutual gains is their core value, but that does not me

  • in soviet russia we choke you!

  • China will do whatever the fuck they want. And having a land border with Russia, the USA can't do anything about it.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by King_TJ ( 85913 )

      Considering our leader needs the help of the Secret Service to help guide him back in the correct door to the White House? Yeah .... pretty damn stupid.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Klaxton ( 609696 )

        He can drink a glass of water with one hand, and walk down a ramp unassisted. I've also seen him speak in complete sentences.

  • Since our feckless and profit worshiping neo-liberal capitalism corporations have sent most of our manufacturing overseas, this threat only hurts American consumers. Notice them come crawling back to their bought off "electeds" , begging for money after years of record profits and 100s of thousands American workers cast aside like yesterdays refuse. They want even more hand outs from our pockets to rebuild the problem they created
    https://www.semiconductors.org... [semiconductors.org]

  • NATO could impose sanctions on China for not complying, but such would make inflation yet worse for us. Aside from ticking off consumers, it could trigger a recession.

    • How the fuck does NATO impose sanctions on China? What part of NATO makes NATO a COUNTRY and what part of China makes it in the NORTH ATLANTIC.

  • HAHAHA (Score:3)

    by Tulsa_Time ( 2430696 ) on Tuesday March 01, 2022 @12:42PM (#62315629)

    Let's read that Headline again.. slowly...

  • "Any items produced with certain U.S. inputs, including American software and designs, are subject to the ban, even if they are made overseas, a U.S. official told Bloomberg News on Monday. Companies that attempt to evade these new controls would face the prospect of themselves being cut off from U.S.-origin technology and corporate executives risk going to jail for violations."

    Since China makes the stuff, not sure they need U.S. "input" - and then the U.S. would risk being cut off from Chinese manufactu

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