Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
Books

Digital Books Are Not Fireproof (zdnet.com) 109

Posted by msmash from the closer-look dept.
Chris Freeland, a librarian and Director of the Internet Archive's Open Libraries program, writes: The disturbing trend of school boards and lawmakers banning books from libraries and public schools is accelerating across the country. In response, Jason Perlow made a strong case last week for what he calls a "Freedom Archive," a digital repository of banned books. Such an archive is the right antidote to book banning because, he contended, "You can't burn a digital book." The trouble is, you can.

A few days ago, Penguin Random House, the publisher of Maus, Art Spiegelman's Pulitzer Prize-winning graphic novel about the Holocaust, demanded that the Internet Archive remove the book from our lending library. Why? Because, in their words, "consumer interest in 'Maus' has soared" as the result of a Tennessee school board's decision to ban teaching the book. By its own admission, to maximize profits, a Goliath of the publishing industry is forbidding our non-profit library from lending a banned book to our patrons: a real live digital book-burning.

We are the library of last resort, where anyone can get access to books that may be controversial wherever they happen to live -- an existing version of Perlow's proposed "Freedom Archive." Today, the Internet Archive lends a large selection of other banned books, including Animal Farm, Winnie the Pooh, The Call of the Wild, and the Junie B. Jones and Goosebumps children's book series. But all of these books are also in danger of being destroyed.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Digital Books Are Not Fireproof More

Digital Books Are Not Fireproof

Comments Filter:
    • I remember that, and how that society ended up collapsing in the end.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by shanen ( 462549 )

      Okay, but why three versions? As an opening gambit for discussion I can't see where it's supposed to lead.

      As regards the story, I think the censorship key these days is to control the searches. Doesn't matter what's out there if you can control the search engines and prevent people from finding the material you want to censor. The Chinese seem to be the only government that really understands how to do censorship in a sufficiently evil and clever way. "It's about the probabilistic math, stupid."

      (Now back to

      • Why three versions? Duh, haven't you heard about redundant backups, especially when it comes to burnable media? Geez.

        • But a copy of a copy is never quite as good as the original.

        • It stems from the practice of a form of dissident activity across the socialist Eastern Bloc in which individuals reproduced censored works by hand, as typewriters and printing devices required official registration and permission to access. Much effort was made to ensure that each copy was identical to every other copy, or "samizdat".

  • Irony (Score:2, Insightful)

    by groobly ( 6155920 )

    Publisher of "banned" book demands it be banned. (Note: it was not banned, it was just removed from one particular curriculum.)

    • Publisher of "banned" book demands it be banned. (Note: it was not banned, it was just removed from one particular curriculum.)

      And it was for nudity and profanity (where kids had access to it), not what the summary and most coverage tried to make it sound like.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by gweihir ( 88907 )

        And it was for nudity and profanity (where kids had access to it)

        Yes, because these two are so much more dangerous to kids than a fascist regime...

        • Maybe, Maybe Not (Score:2, Insightful)

          by Kunedog ( 1033226 )

          And it was for nudity and profanity (where kids had access to it)

          Yes, because these two are so much more dangerous to kids than a fascist regime...

          You're trying to be sarcastic, or you're just being flippant for emotional effect, and hoping the reader doesn't think too hard about it.

          But I would argue that, yes, seeing a porn film might be much more damaging to a child than seeing some nazi/communist propaganda film. They're incapable of properly processing either, but the former might more easily lead to inappropriate or dangerous behavior (and attempts to find more such material).

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by gweihir ( 88907 )

            You're trying to be sarcastic, or you're just being flippant for emotional effect, and hoping the reader doesn't think too hard about it.
            But I would argue that, yes, seeing a porn film might be much more damaging to a child than seeing some nazi/communist propaganda film.

            a) That is your own private deranged fantasy. There is no scientific basis for the claim that regular pornography does damage to children.
            b) We are not talking about pornography here. Nudity is not pornography.
            c) Who said anything about films? You are moving goalposts here. Probably because deep down you understand your argument has no merit.

            Did you have a strict religious upbringing? There is a thing that does massive damage to children! Obviously you have been fucked in the head and this is the most commo

          • Hey now, calm down a wee bit. We're talking about Maus here, and you sit here comparing it to watching a porn film.

            I think you need to go read Maus before you continue down this rather absurd path of non-reasoning. Because you're gravely mistaken if you think glancing through Maus is comparable to watching a porn film.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by fermion ( 181285 )
        And yet we are expected to teach about the former president and First Lady? Just typing in the names without safe search brings up a porno and porno pics.

        https://thefappening.pro/wp-co... [thefappening.pro]

      • and about 2/3rds of the young adult books in a school library past 5th grade have both those things. Go look up YouTuber Shaun's video on the Harry Potter books. There's lots of things worse than nudity and profanity in those, and I don't know anyone calling for them to be banned.

        • I don't know anyone calling for them to be banned.

          You weren’t paying attention then. There were quite a few people raising a stink over the Harry Potter series, because they believed it was exposing kids to the occult.

          Probably the same sort of parents who also don’t like the idea of their kids learning about evolution, or basic facts about human sexuality.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by gtall ( 79522 )

            Ya, after all, some how to Evangelicals "miracles" are not magic. It all comes down to whether you have a wand or not. If you have a wand, it is magic from Satan. If you don't, it's fucking miracle.

        • Oh ya, they tried to ban Harry Potter hard. Teaching kids about witchcraft, it was nearly as demonic as D&D! No seriously, they banned Harry Potter in parts of US in case you missed it.

        • and about 2/3rds of the young adult books in a school library past 5th grade have both those things. Go look up YouTuber Shaun's video on the Harry Potter books. There's lots of things worse than nudity and profanity in those, and I don't know anyone calling for them to be banned.

          You would expect a different set of books in an elementary school library than a middle school library than a high school library than a university library than a public library. Schools are responsible for what children are exposed to at school. Parents are responsible for outside school. If a parent thinks their child is ready for something not offered at the school library, they can borrow the book from the public library or buy a copy.

          Addressing the Harry Potter series, each book's timeline lasts one sc

  • That's how to prevent the destruction of digital assets

  • How long does an artist need a state granted monopoly to incentives them to create a work of art? For books, music and movies I think 15 years is long enough to incentives the creation of 99% of the content that is created. For video games I would argue it should be shorter. There also must be a guarantee, with fines if it isn't met, that any work of art is released into the public domain when the copyright expires. That mean video games must be released without anti piracy and DRM, masters for movies
    • If its a person, I say the life of the person. Non-transferable. None of passing the rights down thru the ages. Its your idea, you get to keep it.
      If it is something made by a company, 21 years. You also are not allowed to polish anything and release it as a new release to restart the clock.

      • The dangers of long copyright was debated back in 1841 [archive.org].

        We don't need copyright holding culture hostage. 20 year is MORE then long enough to profit off work.

        • I agree. Now if you could just forbid Disney from donating to Congressmen's campaigns to extend copyright yet again when Micky Mouse is about to fall into the public domain.

          Perhaps certain things should morph into trademark. Hence while Steamboat Willy would lose copyright, the likeness of Micky Mouse specifically would become a trademark.

          • Agreed, corporate bribes, er, donations, is a big problem. Money NEEDS to be removed from politics, or at the very least be 100% transparent. But good luck holding congress accountable. :-/

            Interesting idea about copyright morphing into trademark. How would that work?

            • Interesting idea about copyright morphing into trademark. How would that work?

              IANAL, but off the top of my head... If a work creates an "iconic" character (e.g., Mickey Mouse), place (e.g., Gotham City), or thing (e.g., TARDIS), then it can request to be morphed into a trademark. The definition of "iconic" would be along the lines of so well known as to be generally recognized by the typical "man in the street."

              Perhaps additionally, you should have to demonstrate ongoing use of the trademark to keep it,

      • So if you're an artist supporting your family and you die, they can't continue to be supported by your life's work?

        • And their family and their family after, right? No, they shouldn't.

        • Why should artists be treated any differently than plumbers or electricians?

          I use the plumbing in my house everyday, but I don't have to pay the plumbers kid a nickel every time I do.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ixuzus ( 2418046 )

        Of course current copyrights are way too long but that's just being beyond stupid. Why should a does a company get a guaranteed time period but not the individual? Isn't life hard enough for artist already without people like yourself wanting to create financial incentives to do them harm?

        Example 1: Big company wants to use copyrighted material belonging to artist. Artist refuses - is morally opposed or doesn't like the insultingly low offer. Artist shoots himself in the back three times and throws hi

    • the BBC needs to be punished for claiming copy right on Doctor Who episodes it no longer has copies of.

      Ya, but a quick trip in the TARDIS (once it and/or time travel is invented) and it *will* have copies of them, again -- either by (a) bringing them back to the present time, or (b) preventing them from going missing in the first place, in which case they will have had them all along. Checkmate.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by shanen ( 462549 )

      Clarion call for my old joke about the couch potatoes, eh? https://wt.social/post/the-fut... [wt.social]

      But in response to your Subject question, I think the payments should be linked to actual revenue generated, not time. All books are not created equal, but if some couch potato is willing to pay to read it, then that's no skin off the potato's nose. And a fraction should go to the creator. The tricky part is extending it to derivative works... There are always those devilish details lurking around.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by mark-t ( 151149 )

      I disagree. Slightly. Copyright holders should not have to burden the costs of rereleasing their work as public domain when their copyright expires. If the public values it, they should keep backups of it themselves. I agree that current copyright durations are far too long... although if we are talking about ideals, I would argue for 20 years rather than just 15 for non-digital works and 10 years for *purely* digital works (because technology changes so fast that anything made more than that long ago

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by mark-t ( 151149 )
        Hm.... rereading what I wrote there, I realize that "then they can not publish it in the first place" might be ambiguous... what I mean to say here is not that they should not be permitted to publish it, but that they have the freedom to decide to not publish it.
      • I think a mandatory re-release of a DRM-free copy of works on which the copyright expired, is a small price to pay for the privilege of having that copyright. This can be facilitated; the publisher simply files a DRM-free copy with a national library or similar institute, to be kept under embargo until the copyright expires.

        • It's already required as part of copyright registration (which is required to get full protection) to submit a copy to the Library of Congress.

      • While I agree they shouldn't have to host it for everyone, they absolutely should be required to send DRM-free copies to archivists, who are then permitted to redistribute it (as are anyone that gets it from them). There should be no requirement for others to have to break it, that cost should be part of the bargain, that eliminates the issue of using it to break new DRM too. I'd take it one step further and make them include server code since that's part of the product. It wouldn't be difficult or expensiv

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by pruss ( 246395 )

        Well, that burden could be seen as the price of copyright protection. A bargain with society: you get copyright protection for 20 years (say) in exchange for putting the data in escrow for free access after that. If you don't want the expense of the latter, you don't have copyright, but can still try to rely on DRM, knowing that everyone is legally free to break the DRM if they can.

  • it's $22 from amazon (Score:3)

    by known_coward_69 ( 4151743 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @01:39PM (#62336785)

    it's not that expensive that some of you cheapos can't buy it

    • What part of "lend" do you not understand?
    • Double that in Canada.

      I was going to buy it, but I think I'll not bother now.

    • For items that I will use 1 times, I am loathe to providing storage space to it after its use.

      During c19 lockdown, archive.org provided me with access to materials otherwise not available to me even through the A, and without the need for Cxxx spewing trucks or their bottle-peeing drivers.

  • Not the same thing. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Guspaz ( 556486 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @01:41PM (#62336799)

    Sending a C&D to book pirates is not the same as a book burning. Let's not blow things out of proportion.

    • Let's not blow things out of proportion.

      Let's leave that to ignorant, up-tight school boards... :-)

      • Let's not blow things out of proportion.

        Let's leave that to ignorant, up-tight school boards... :-)

        School libraries are responsible for what children are exposed to while there. School libraries do need to decide what is appropriate for their venue. If parents believe their children are ready for material not offered by the school library, they can check out public libraries.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by drhamad ( 868567 )
      Yeah, I'm not sure what the issue is here. The book is readily available from the publisher. They're asking someone to stop distributing that has no rights to distribute it.

  • Since bloody when???

    • Bigger question, Goosebumps.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Ambvai ( 1106941 )

        Excessive violence, depictions of satanic and occult themes, and generally being too scary for its target audience (preteen/early teen). ...Frankly, I don't even remember any notable violence happening on-page.

        • "And so the tale of confessions and executions went on, until there was a pile of corpses lying before Napoleon's feet and the air was heavy with the smell of blood, which had been unknown there since the expulsion of Jones."

          "When they had finished their confession, the dogs promptly tore their throats out, and in a terrible voice Napoleon demanded whether any other animal had anything to confess."

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      It's banned in Cuba and North Korea, for obvious reasons.

      Several schools in the US have tried to ban it at various times, and the US government considered it such a severe threat to national security that the CIA bought the movie rights so they could make an animated film with strategic modifications.

      Why the US would want to ban Animal Farm is a good question. People who want to ban books usually aren't great at understanding allegory, but Animal Farm isn't exactly subtle. Maybe the message "authoritarianis

    • [Animal Farm is banned] Since bloody when???

      Animal Farm was banned in 1987 by 4 middle schools in Bay County and 3 high schools in Panama City (Florida). These bans were overturned after 44 parents filed a suit with the school district. In 2017 a school district in Stonington (Connecticut) removed Animal Farm from its 8th grade curriculum; the book was still available in the library.

  • I mean, anything electronic is not going to work if you let the smoke out of it.

  • Are there books banned in US schools or libraries? (Score:3)

    by sinij ( 911942 ) on Tuesday March 08, 2022 @01:59PM (#62336871)
    I know there are some laws that prohibit including certain topics, like CRT, as a mandatory part of curriculum. I don't think such laws are the same thing as banning these books.
    • CRT should be included in curriculum, as well as LCD and LED. Ok, I guess Plasma can be in there too.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sinij ( 911942 )
        Academically, neo-marxism should be studied part of civics education. However, this is not how it is currently presented by activist teachers.
        • Fuck that.
          I hated that class. All we ever did in it was copy shit from the board into a notebook that had to be turned in to make sure you were writing the notes and penmanship counted.
          No lappys allowed and we were graded on something as archaic as penmanship.

        • no, not notable enough, fringe stuff that never gained traction and there is no end to that. There is even "feminist neo-marxism" which pretty much shows what a farce the whole thing is.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by sinij ( 911942 )
            CRT is based on neo-marxism, if you don't understand class struggle and how much bloodshed resulted from trying to apply it, you will not understand how damaging and dangerous is dividing people by immutable characteristics that CRT is currently doing.
            • Isn't neo-marxism the non-violent offshoot of marxism which forgoes the revolutionary aspects of the class struggle? I base this assumption on the observation that most so-called neo-marxists appear to be North American or Western European rather from countries actually ruled by Communist parties.

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by sinij ( 911942 )
                Watch James Lindsay explaining it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by Budenny ( 888916 )

                The line of descent is from Hegel and Marx via Post Modernism. It starts from an extreme form of moral and epistemological relativism and subjectivity, and it has its roots in German Idealism.

                That is, it starts from the view that 'good' means or can only mean 'good for me', similarly 'true'. My perceptions are what makes the world the way it is.

                Its then natural to consider what about me makes my perceptions what they are. There being no objective truth or reality, its only the characteristics of the pers

                • Re: (Score:2)

                  by jbengt ( 874751 )
                  Very interesting read, thank you. But citation needed for this:

                  . . . large sections of US and UK intellectuals really think that our race and sex are the only interesting things about us . . .

                  I'm convinced that the intellectuals thinking that are a vocal tiny minority, not large sections.

                  • Re: (Score:2)

                    by sinij ( 911942 )
                    When you have theoretical physics departments [mit.edu] devote large section to DIE, you know that academia is lost and that everything is sub-servant to the imperatives of the CRT faith. You can be certain that no meaningful theoretical physics work will be done while they are purity-testing and purging non-believers.

            • Real countries that adapt degrees of Marxism in any form are the ones with bloodbaths in the hundreds of thousands or millions.

              CRT? Let's quote a CRT leader:

              Ibram X. Kendi bluntly asserts that âoethe only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination.â

              CRT is racist bullshit and needs to die in a fire.

  • It is really unfortunate that we have gotten to a place where our editorialized "news" is having real world effects.

    Almost every "news" show on cable is nothing but opinions. When they arrive in court, the lawyers always argue, "Why on earth would someone believe this? Its all opinion, hyperbole and clearly nonsense."

    Of course, the obvious answer to that is, "Because people are human", but society likes to argue that each person has a mind of their own, and can wall themselves off from these types of infl

  • More books in much better shape.
  • Isn't this where everyone jumps up at once and proclaims that this sort of thing is easily circumvented?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      Well, it is. The Internet Archive might like to think they're the library of last resort, but you can download Maus no problem from Libgen, or any number of other sites by typing "Maus spiegelman download" into Google.

  • Make a torrent of them and then try getting that removed...

  • Winnie the Pooh is banned in china!

    • Turkish state owned television banned him too, because of Piglet being a *gasp* pig and thus against the tenants of Islam!

  • The ban list is very odd.
    If you told that publishers are the ones doing this for cheap marketing I will believe you.
    Ban some books but not others.
    1984, Animal Farm, Slaughter House 5 banned. Nothing by Robert A. Heinlein. Goosebumps and LotR banned, but none of the Stainless Steel Rat books. Scary Stories is the book that got my brother to want to learn to read better. He will be only 29 this year.

    I also see none of my mother cheap cheesy romance novels, but those might already be covered under a banne

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      Books in the US are typically banned by local authorities when somebody gets mad enough to make an issue of it. Goosebumps was very popular. Harry Potter too. You can bet that if some teacher assigned students to read Time Enough For Love often enough that the right parent decided they should read it too, heads would be exploding at the local council meeting.

      The national-level hysteria over Animal Farm is just weird.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by gweihir ( 88907 )

        The national-level hysteria over Animal Farm is just weird.

        My theory is not that the subject of the hysterics is weird, but that the people doing hysterics are the problem and they will always find something to be hysteric about. It basically is an obnoxious form of public virtue-signalling and just as stupid.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

          True. Virtue signalling isn't new, nor is getting excited about being offended. Younger people are offended and think they shouldn't have to deal with that. Older people are offended and think that if nothing is done society will collapse, children will snort coke while impregnating one another, and Satan will return to walk the Earth.

          The thing I find weird about Animal Farm in particular is that the US government thought it was a serious threat to national security, and the CIA *secretly* made an altered v

  • Just like everyone can be their own publisher these days, people need to be their own librarians. While the burning analogy wasn't quite right in the article, if there are a billion libraries they can't all be burned.

    Back in the 90s I'd buy laserdiscs. They were the best "permanent" archival medium for the time. They didn't wear out when watching like tapes. Used ones from rental stores were much cheaper than new. When DVDs first came out the quality wasn't always better. A bigger issue with DVDs ov
    • Oh, and how could I forget keeping a copy of Star Wars where Han shoots first.
    • I guess you can call that your very own private/personal library. But the thing about real libraries is that other people can use it. I assume this is also the idea behind the Internet Archive. Sure it's easy building your own library, if you have the time and money. But that would be just another paywall for the less-privileged, either because they don't have the money or they weren't born yet when cheap, mass-market copies were being sold (which have now become rare and expensive collectors' editions).

  • By its own admission, to maximize profits, a Goliath of the publishing industry is forbidding our non-profit library from lending a banned book to our patrons: a real live digital book-burning.

    But ... but ... I thought the new party line was that private companies can do whatever they want, freedom of information be damned?

  • For those of you that were alive before cellphones, the old sitcom Family Ties did two episodes about this in Season 6, episodes 20 and 21: Read It and Weep. My point is simply to the beginning of the article which says "The disturbing trend of school boards and lawmakers banning books from libraries and public schools is accelerating across the country". This isn't a new thing...

  • .... americans need to reform their copyright instead of licking corporate americas balls.

  • I read books on my kindle in the first instance, but then, if I like the book, I always buy a hard copy. This way no one but perhaps a fire can take my books away from me, even if they get edited or outright banned in the future for whatever reasons rised by the easily offended.

  • DRM is deliberately designed to allow virtual book burning. That's why we need laws against DRM.

Slashdot Top Deals

Air pollution is really making us pay through the nose.

Close