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United States The Almighty Buck

Deutsche Bank Predicts the US Will Tumble Into Recession in 2023 as the Fed Hikes Interest Rates Hard (businessinsider.com) 152

Deutsche Bank has said it expects the US economy to fall into a recession in late 2023 as the Federal Reserve raises interest rates sharply, becoming the first major lender to make such a prediction. From a report: The bank's analysts, including chief US economist Matthew Luzzetti, said the Fed has historically triggered recessions when it hikes rates to deal with strong inflation. "A mild recession will be needed to take sufficient steam out of the economy and labor market to bring inflation back down," they wrote in a major report on the global economy, released Wednesday.

Inflation has soared to a 40-year high in the US as demand has rebounded from coronavirus lockdowns, aided by government stimulus, but supply chains have remained snarled. The Fed has already raised interest rates by 25 basis points as it tries to cool borrowing and spending. But analysts say the hiking cycle has a long way to go, raising fears about economic growth. Deutsche expects the Fed to raise the federal funds rate by 50 basis points at each of the next three meetings, and thinks the rate will go above 3.5% next year. They said the Fed has only avoided inducing a recession when raising interest rates that hard on two occasions. On all other occasions, significant Fed rate hikes were followed within a year or two by recessions, they said.

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Deutsche Bank Predicts the US Will Tumble Into Recession in 2023 as the Fed Hikes Interest Rates Hard

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  • Did they also predict that he will not pay them back their money?

  • by oldgraybeard ( 2939809 ) on Thursday April 07, 2022 @09:19AM (#62425274)
    The banks I deal with went up 1%. Glad I am not loaded with debt atm. Now they are predicting multiple 0.50% rate hikes. Going to be a wild ride with the current administration running things into the ground. I lived through the Carter years, it was bad. Cant use debt in a high interest rate environment. Anyone who does/needs to is going to be hurt bad.
    • by Klaxton ( 609696 )

      So what's your solution for handling inflation? Interest rates have been near zero for years.

      • by oblom ( 105 )

        Get a raise if you can and save cash. That's what you do. This isn't a demand driven inflation, but supply-side shocks. These will pass and we'll revert to a deflationary trend.

        • by Klaxton ( 609696 )

          That's good advice, but I was meaning what is the solution for inflation from the perspective of the Fed or the government other than what they have been doing. We don't live in a command economy.

          • by oblom ( 105 )

            There's isn't much of anything helpful that the Fed can do. Threaten to hike rates fast and sell bonds in order to keep credibility, which is what they are doing. Meanwhile, be prepared to do nothing or ease if the economy starts rolling over later this year.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      BTW I started life as a democrat and voted for Jimmy Carter in 1976(1st presidential election I was eligible). Real life made me a (not a democrat anymore) life long fiscal conservative.
      • Out of curiosity, who are you voting for now? GOP hasn't been fiscally conservative since before Reagan.

        The only difference really is where the money goes.
        • Absolute truth there, GOP and DEM are just flip sides of the same rotten to the core coin.
          Just different groups of rich/donors feeding from the trough of tax dollars(growing public debt).
          "Out of curiosity, who are you voting for now?" atm I don't know.

          maybe just vote'em all out hope for better? atm there is no one I voted for in power at the state or federal level.
          Crisis pop up because of a lack of leadership, vision and competence in government.
          We have politicians and bureaucrats who are mostly politic
          • by Vancorps ( 746090 ) on Thursday April 07, 2022 @10:31AM (#62425498)

            While both parties have their problems, when it comes to fiscal responsibility I don't know how you can conclude they are the same. Democrats historically actually pay for their spending while Republicans just deficit spend. It has been that way for 30 years now.

            You can even look at the more extreme end with Bernie Sanders wanting to provide all these new government services openly admitting he'll pay for it with higher taxes. Whether you agree with his proposal or not, he's at least trying to pay for it rather than the Republican mantra that government doesn't work and I'll do everything I can to make sure it doesn't no matter what it costs the American people.

            • Wish I had mod points for this. In addition, Dem administrations have all lowered the budget deficit in the last four decades; GOP administrations have all raised them. https://www.thebalance.com/def... [thebalance.com]
            • Democrats historically actually pay for their spending while Republicans just deficit spend.

              Yes, historically the Democrats may have a better record of paying for their spending with tax increases, but Republicans have a far better record of complaining about spending when the opposition is in the Whitehouse. :)

      • by Zekolas ( 1029166 ) on Thursday April 07, 2022 @10:02AM (#62425388)

        . Real life made me a (not a democrat anymore) life long fiscal conservative.

        In the USA there really isn't a fiscally conservative party. History has shown there is usually only fiscal constraint when the democrats control the white house.

        • "In the USA there really isn't a fiscally conservative party." party? no, voters? yes. And nothing good on the fiscal front has happened in my lifetime, except
          Having lived through the inflation/gas lines of olde! I never thought the US could be energy independent in a fossil fuel world.

          And we were for a microsecond, until the powers to be ended that! And we could be again!
      • by MightyMartian ( 840721 ) on Thursday April 07, 2022 @10:37AM (#62425516) Journal

        You let us know when any fiscal conservatives actually end up in power. The Republican's big tax cut when Trump first got into office was basically funded by debt. I mean, a government could build bridges and chip fab plants with debt, you know, infrastructure that will persist for years and decades to come. Or they can just borrow money to hand over to their base so they can keep winning elections.

        Fiscal conservatism isn't merely about reigning in deficits. Fiscal conservatism is about sensible spending, and sensible borrowing. No government in the last 2,000 years (and probably a lot longer, though I know a lot less about pre-Roman debt instruments) has been able to function without borrowing money. Heck, the modern banking system evolved in Italy to fund various kinds of public spending, and as a side effect allowed non-government actors to use an increasing array of debt instruments to fund their own expansion and pool capital.

        The kind of fiscal conservatism the Libertarians in the Republic Party seem to envisage is a kind of endless austerity, where every manner of public spending, whether it makes sense or doesn't, is squeezed. But even the Founding Fathers knew the value of debt, and the first thing they tried to do, even during the War of Independence, is try to find governments and bankers willing to lend them money. Lincoln blossomed the national debt during the Civil War, and by some calculations, the Federal Government has never been debt free in any meaningful way since the 1860s. And yet, by the 20th century, the US had ascended to become the most powerful economy on the planet.

        Democrats aren't perfect, but some of the issues have to do with the way that Congress functions. You can't even build a bloody rocket without having earmarks for twenty districts thousands of miles away from where they're actually putting the damned thing together, because unless a Representative can't see some of that sweet gravy come their way, they won't vote to approve. The US system was in fact designed to be inefficient, as a means of countering centralized authority, but that inefficiency means many Federal projects are automatically more expensive than they could be.

        • "You let us know when any fiscal conservatives actually end up in power." exactly!
        • But even the Founding Fathers knew the value of debt

          Woah, woah, woah. Hold on there. That is not correct. Hamilton recognized how debt could be used for government purposes, but many others, including Madison, saw the downside of perpetual debt. That is why, right after the treaty with England, the Founding Fathers were trying to find a way to pay off all the accumulated debt.

          I just finished a book about the three lives of James Madison which details his struggles with Hamilton both at the Con
      • by Klaxton ( 609696 )

        The national debt increased by about $8 trillion during trump's disastrous presidency, so I hope you aren't under the impression that the GOP is fiscally conservative.

    • by splutty ( 43475 ) on Thursday April 07, 2022 @09:34AM (#62425304)

      The 'current administration' has extremely little to do with all this. This has been coming ever since the fed had to drop the interest rate to around 0 because of all kinds of fuckups in *all* the previous administrations.

      But you believe what you believe. It's almost like the economy isn't really all that much influenced by a specific 'administration'.

      • No, historically, you're absolutely right. The economy rises and falls in a roller coaster pattern over time, regardless of who is the President. But people think in the short-term, and always place blame on the current leadership when things are going bad, and give them undeserved amounts of credit when time are good.

        Still, there are a couple of major things in play that allow the leadership to influence the outcomes:

        First has to do with their ability to make people feel confident (or unconfident) about th

        • If you're referring to Keystone, that was first canceled by Obama, then Trump overrided that and approved it, but the whole thing was caught up in lawsuits with farmers, tribes and environmentalists on one side and the oil industry on the other, so not even Trump's approval meant a bloody thing. Biden just put a bullet in a horse that was in all reality already dying, if not outright dead. And really, don't you think punching a pipeline through sandy land on top of a major aquifer seems like kind of a bad i

          • Also let's not forget the fact that when Biden pulled the plug on it it was something like 3-10% complete, would not be finished for about another decade and it was designed to ship dirty tar sand oil out of Canada for processing in majority overseas refineries.

            It's a convenient easy to grasp thing to shift blame on the surface but do just any little digging about the project and it's pretty easy to see why it was a boondoggle and how it has very little impact on problems happening right now.

      • If you're lucky, like Clinton or Obama, you get elected when the economy is firing up, or firing on all cylinders, and then you get to claim "Look how good I am!" If you're unlucky George HW Bush or even to some extent Trump (though his Administration sucked in so many ways I don't know if you can point to just the economy, and there is the pandemic), then you come in as things begin to crash and burn, and then your opponents can say "Look at how much that guy sucks!"

        It's not that politics doesn't have an i

        • by Klaxton ( 609696 )

          Bush inherited a budget surplus, and trump had a very healthy economy to work with. Not the case at all for Obama or Biden.

      • It really has been the fed I think. The problems since 9/11 have been papered over by printing money/lowering rates. And surprisingly to me, for 20 years almost, it worked without raising inflation much. It worked so well that the fed thought they could just keep doing it even printing massive amounts during covid. I still believe the right thing to do during covid. But the times the fed throttled back whenever the markets would even start to go down like just before covid was a massive mistake. So now much
    • by aitikin ( 909209 )

      The banks I deal with went up 1%. Glad I am not loaded with debt atm. Now they are predicting multiple 0.50% rate hikes. Going to be a wild ride with the current administration running things into the ground. I lived through the Carter years, it was bad. Cant use debt in a high interest rate environment. Anyone who does/needs to is going to be hurt bad.

      Glad I did get loaded with the debt I have during the peak of the recession, not sure why you're glad you're not loaded. I locked in a mortgage and car note at historically low rates, if inflation truly kicks in fierce, I'll be paying 80c on the dollar or so by the time I'm done with the car note and 60c on the dollar by the end of the mortgage (or less) and I work in a job where my pay tends to be accommodating to increases because of inflation.

      For those riddled with credit card debt, particularly if it's

      • I'd prefer for rising rates to collapse the housing market. My money makes more in the market than it does tied up in a mortgage, so I've just been saving for a house and don't expect to ever take out a mortgage.

        • Does your money make more elsewhere really? I paid 220k for my house 9 years and it is now worth over 750k. Contrast that rate of return with other investments and I don't think I'd see anywhere near the same ROI.
          • It's all a bit of luck too. Your house could of burned down and you would of probably lost nearly everything, even after insurance. On the other hand, if you would of invested into energy companies or pharm companies prior to the pandemic with your 220k, you may very well have even more then 750k.

            I don't follow either market all that well, but I agree the real estate gains have been insane over the past 10 years. I bought my place for 118.5k and it's worth 400k now. Possibly more. Insanity.

        • by aitikin ( 909209 )

          My money makes more in the market than it does tied up in a mortgage, so I've just been saving for a house and don't expect to ever take out a mortgage.

          Where I'm living that's not accurate if you take into consideration how much rent would've been. Over 9 years, my property value has gone up an estimated 185%.

          My mortgage payment (including insurance and property tax) has run me about the same as rent where I live (until about 2 years ago when rent skyrocketed), $700/mon, so if you assume that 1/5 of that would be saved by repairs that the renter would've been paying for, that's roughly $15k savings vs the equity already in the house for me. If I had been

  • hmm (Score:5, Insightful)

    by cascadingstylesheet ( 140919 ) on Thursday April 07, 2022 @09:23AM (#62425278) Journal
    Gosh, it was so unpredictable that inflation would soar as we handed out more money that people could use to chase the same or fewer goods and services.
    • by splutty ( 43475 )

      Yeah. That and people's costs went way down during the whole period of covid as well.

      Things like going out for dinner, paying gas for commuting, etc, etc, are all relatively little amounts of money, but add up to rather large amounts.

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      Why would Trump do such a thing?

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Coren22 ( 1625475 )

        Because it was a bill with wide bipartisan support and he would have been unable to veto it anyways? The only stimulus that didn't have wide bipartisan support was the one passed under Biden, as it was widely expected to cause runaway inflation at the time...I wonder what happened with that one.

        • "bipartisan"

          “Do I want to sign them? No,” he said, but called the plan to send more than $292 million to American households a “Trump administration initiative.”

          https://time.com/5821097/donal... [time.com]

          He made sure his name was on those checks too.

          • "bipartisan"

            Yes, bipartisan, as in both sides supported the stimulus checks.

            He made sure his name was on those checks too.

            So what? Has nothing to do with it being a bill that both side supported and felt needed to happen.

    • It's easy to criticize, but it's not easy to come up with a better solution.

      It's a blunt tool. And of course when the blunt tool was used, it was not expected that there were going to be such shortages - really, it created many of the shortages.

      But so many studies have shown that direct cash aid is generally more effective than targeted aid. It was an easy mistake to make and probably one that would be made again. It was an attempt to prevent total societal collapse.

      Meanwhile, the PPP program - ignoring

    • Re:hmm (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ranton ( 36917 ) on Thursday April 07, 2022 @10:11AM (#62425422)

      People had been claiming inflation was predictable, but they have been claiming it for well over a decade as money has been pumped into the system and interest rates have been historically low since the Great Recession. Anyone who says they accurately predicted inflation have as much credibility as someone who claims victory after predicting there will be another recession sometime in the next century.

      It was not clear that employment and supply chains would stay strained for this long, and that we have finally hit the point where increased money supply outstripped availability of labor and resources.

    • by oblom ( 105 )

      Only partially true. That money was spent already and only had negligible impact on inflation. The true cause is supply-side shock, which the Fed can't do anything about. If anything, they should be staying put or easing. We are heading for a deflation next year.

    • by e3m4n ( 947977 )
      isnt the cycle: inflation -> deflation -> recession -> depression ---> back to the beginning... How can we experience double digit inflation and recession at the same time? Is the end nigh?
    • there were and are plenty of goods/services and we didn't hand out very much money to individuals.

      We did however give about $7 trillion to the top 1%. About $3.5 trillion was direct cash subsidies given out in exchange for a promise not to fire employees (which they largely broke). Another $3.5 trillion was them profiteering from the pandemic while buying up assets on the cheap.

      So now the top 1% are flush with cash, what do they do? They go on a buying spree, buying up houses, apartments and busines
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by epiphani ( 254981 )

      You're right, but you're also trying to imply the wrong thing.

      The handing out money has been in the form of cheap debt for the past 14 years, since 2008. Housing market inflation came first, and now we're seeing that inflation hit commodities, food, etc. The trickle of money from the pandemic stimulus was nothing.

      The root issue here is banking regulation, which led to 2008's crash, which led to "too big to fail" quantitative easing, a massive injection of cash into the banking system and the resulting fai

  • by Thelasko ( 1196535 ) on Thursday April 07, 2022 @09:36AM (#62425310) Journal
    The headline says Deutsche Bank predicts, but the quote says it's needed.

    Honestly, the quote is a reasonable assessment. If the economy is over stimulated, the options are:
    1. Do nothing, and let inflation run wild.
    2. Slow economic growth close to zero, and wait for supply to catch up to demand.
    3. Create an economic contraction (recession) and reduce demand to match supply.

    Personally, I think option 2 is the preferred path. But I'm sure the current administration is anxious the economy won't be stable in time for the next election cycle. Therefore, option 3 is a likely scenario.
    • You seem confused about the difference between the bank and government. The government has one seat on the board but by no means actually controls the Federal reserve board. It would not be the administration's decision to do 1,2,or 3.
      • The government has one seat on the board but by no means actually controls the Federal reserve board. It would not be the administration's decision to do 1,2,or 3.

        This isn't fantasy land, it's the United States. Nothing is above politics. Not the CDC, [cnbc.com] and certainly not the Federal Reserve. [reuters.com]

        • Notice how the Federal Reserve did not do what Trump was pressuring them to do. He wanted negative interest rates and they did no oblige. Rates were already basically zero, they were never going to go lower. As I said, they have a seat on the board but they do not run the federal reserve.
  • My fingers are crossed for a housing meltdown. Nothing could be sweeter than rising rates leading to plummeting home values. May your ARM rate reach for the stars!

    • Not enough homes for their to be any kind of real correction. The last article I read said there was something like 400k listed homes when in pre-pandemic times there was closer to ~1.5 million listed.

      The principle prices of homes may drop a little bit with the increase of interest rates, but clearly the link of affordability and the average family's ability to buy a home is already decoupled. The average family already cannot afford to own a home, so they are forced to rent. No one prevents you from paying

  • by JoeyRox ( 2711699 ) on Thursday April 07, 2022 @09:43AM (#62425338)
    The Fed will do one or two 1/2 point hikes and a few 1/4 but they won't raise real rates above 0%, ie the inflation rate minus the fed funds rate will remain well above 0%. They don't have the political stomach for causing a recession. Their strategy instead is to put the fear of rate hikes out there so the market does risk-off pivots as if rates were higher than where they'll land. That way the Fed has cover - they can point to modest hikes they'll actually do and say they weren't high enough to cause the recession.
    • Well, they have to do it enough to be credible, since if enough people such as yourself are not convinced, it won't work. So all they can really do is pull back on the reigns a little more bit by bit until the crazy horse stops galloping, and hope it doesn't come to a halt.
      • Interest rates will have to go up high enough to make other investment vehicles outside of stocks more attractive. This could cause a recession, which is two consecutive quarters of negative fiscal growth. This could cause lots of stock prices to tumble, and making them more attractive if you have cash or other investments that you can shift around in.

        Always opportunity!!!

  • the future is peoples' reactions to being wrong about the future.

  • Not only Deutsche Bank says so. US is heading for a recession later this year regardless of what the Fed does. But it will be interesting to watch how the events unfold. Some people say that the Fed is already behind the curve and this "aggressive" stance is too little too late and may be counter productive. If anything, they'll be forced to unwind the tightening and flood the banks with more money mid-year.

    The stock market bubble and the following crash should be spectacular. Y2K bubble was just a rehearsa

  • Douchebank is not a trusted source of info.

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