Pilots Contend With Record Number of Laser Strikes, FAA Says (nytimes.com) 97
Several readers have shared this report: One foggy night in December 2018, David Hill was trying to land a helicopter when a beam of light suddenly overwhelmed his night vision goggles. Mr. Hill, an emergency services pilot, had been called to airlift a teenager who had been badly injured in an all-terrain vehicle crash from a village 35 miles north of Madison, Wis. But now, Mr. Hill was temporarily blinded. Flying about 500 feet above the ground, he tried to get his bearings. It was "like looking into the sun, and all I can see are bright spots," he recalled. A person had pointed a laser at his helicopter. From 2010 to 2021, close to 70,000 pilots reported similar episodes, according to the Federal Aviation Administration. Last year it recorded more than 9,700 cases, a record high, and a 41 percent increase from 2020. When a laser pointer reaches a cockpit, the light can disorient or "completely incapacitate" a pilot, who on a commercial airplane could be responsible for hundreds of passengers, the F.A.A. said. Some commercial flight paths have been disrupted, causing pilots to change course or even turn around. "What you might see as a toy has the capacity to momentarily blind the crew member," Billy Nolen, the acting administrator of the F.A.A., said. Though no plane has ever been reported to have crashed as a result of a laser strike, Mr. Nolen said in a phone interview that there was always a risk of a "tragic outcome." He added, "This is not an arcade game."
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I wonder if polarising filters might help. Polarising glasses for night driving are effective.
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Either it's not as big of an issue as they make it out to be, or they would have installed reflectors/polarizing filters if they worked. TBH, according to this page [laserpointersafety.com] and the cheap pointers everyone has (less than 3mw), this is only an issue in very close encounters with an aircraft. I checked 2 green lasers that I have had for 15 years, which were expensive back then at $50 a pop, and they're both
But I do wonder what, besides education, can you do to prevent people pointing these at aircrafts. Banning
Re:...but no crashes. (Score:4, Informative)
>br> Polarizers and filters don't work because you don't know the polarization or wavelength of the laser threat. Reflectors would block normal light as well. There might be very expensive actions that could be taken, but multiplied by the size of the aircraft fleet, its a huge expense.
>br> I don't know what to do except try to educate people.
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In the case of helicopter, you go up, turn around, land down again, being in the opposite direction. Now offender is no longer in a position to intrude due to protection by the body of the aircraft.
Re:...but no crashes. (Score:5, Interesting)
I'd bet a lot of the "laser incidents" are not lasers.
I'll take that bet. If you've ever been hit in the eyes by a high-power green laser, you aren't likely to mistake it for a green light in your peripheral vision.
There are a few companies that are making special filtering film that blocks the 532 nm wavelength of the most common green lasers. And it isn't just pilots that are having this problem. Riot police, security cameras, and night vision goggles are all susceptible to damage from the green laser strikes.
Bayfol HX film [covestro.com]
https://www.meta-air.com/law-e... [meta-air.com]
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Then there's the types of people who just do it to be an ass... And whether they understand the consequences or no is irrelevant.
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the cheap pointers everyone has (less than 3mw)
Less than 3mW? Yeah, right. That's all the power that anybody stupid enough to point a laser at an aircraft would buy.
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Counter-batteries!
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Would be a crap shoot if the polarized glass were in the right orientation to actually block the beam, most of the time some or most would get through. That assumes laser is polarised, the cheap pointers are but some types of lasers are not.
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You filter out the Red lasers, the Green lasers, and the Blue lasers. Not much to see after that.
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> but what're you going to do?
How easy is it from a single point of intercept to figure out where the laser is on the ground? Could you shine back with a laser from the plane to give immediate response to discourage the person shining the laser up?
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Could you shine back with a laser from the plane to give immediate response to discourage the person shining the laser up?
An AGM-114 would probably be a much more effective deterrent.
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Re: ...but no crashes. (Score:2)
Responding with gunfire would be an inappropriate response as it involves a) indiscriminate killing without trial and b) opening fire in densely inhabited regions. It is deeply against the US Constitution for due process and a violation of most moral codes humanity has ever espoused. So, no.
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The response to attempted murder is called self defense, and is legal, and constitutional.
Shining a laser beam into a pilot's eyes is attempted murder, or attempted mass murder.
Yes, the two jokes in this thread are overkill, but that is why they were jokes, and not serious responses to the problem.
Re:...but no crashes. (Score:5, Informative)
How many "bright headlight" strikes happen on the road every single night?.
I used to wonder what it looked like to be on the receiving end of a laser. I was mostly curious about speckle and diffraction pattern when viewed directly.
I did an experiment many years ago back when I taught physics. I took a 5 mW laser (He-Ne 630 nm), pointed it across the room, and placed a negative lens in the beam so it was about 15 feet across at the far wall. I walked over and looked into the beam. There was an interesting speckle and what looked like a diffraction pattern. My vision was completely overtaken by the red light and it was slightly painfull. I stepped out immediately.
Anyway, it's much worse than oncoming headlights. With headlights you can still see the dashboard and still have peripheral vision to see the edge of the road.
The answer to "why did you do that to yourself" is that my school was a 2-year program, so I had no graduate students to use.
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How many "bright headlight" strikes happen on the road every single night?
Since when did bright headlights cause permanent eye damage from the light exposure alone (sure, if you crash you can sustain eye damage and more). Don't try to look into a laser, any laser, directly. Ever.
Also, the range a laser can blind you far exceeds that of any headlight. If you are totally blinded by headlights you regain your vision after a short while and there are things you can do to, for example slow down a bit while you are impaired or if it is really serious, come to a full stop, pull over and
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How many "bright headlight" strikes happen on the road every single night?
And do "bright headlight" strikes kill people on the road? Yes, they do.
It's a difficult job navigating in 3D - more so than 2D. Would you rather wait for a plane or helicopter crash to kill loved ones before taking action?
Instead of insinuations, try suggesting something constructive. Say, helicopters and planes with external cameras pointed at the ground, that can detect a laser beam and automatically report the video, position and time to police. And to YouTube, so the rest of us try and guess the troub
If this really causes such a problem.... (Score:2)
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Height, some Russian fighter aircraft fly higher than their defenses can reach, so you can't get a laser pointer trained on a pilots eye's from that distance.
Time, big difference from a military plane flying by than a hovering helicopter.
Exposure, why get close enough for line of sight visual without using a take down weapon and risk it all for an inconvenience?
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Also...much like tracers...lasers point both ways.
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Perhaps use same solution Russian pilots would, shoot a rocket at anyone pointing a laser.
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Difficulty with targeting. Getting accurate shine on the cockpit at high altitude strike aircraft is very difficult in terms of technology involved. It's not enough to just slide the laser over it during a fraction of a second.
But this technique has been used for a long time in peacetime "poking and prodding". For example, Chinese military routinely uses this on foreign military aircraft using fairly powerful ship based laser installations guided by complex targeting systems that are capable of making laser
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Then how is it that this otherwise seems to cause such a problem for pilots? Either these lasers cause problems that interfere with flying or they don't.. If they don't, then why is the FAA complaining about it, and if they do,, it seems to me like at least a *possible* (and relatively inexpensive) minor offensive mechanism that can be employed by Ukrainian civilians to interfere with Russian pilots.
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Because pilots have problems with this when they're low near the ground when they're landing or taking off. Accuracy of laser increases as distance decreases. At a few hundred meters altitude, you can probably aim it by hand with a handheld laser from the side and blind the pilots. At ten kilometers altitude, you'll need a proper guidance system and a much more powerful laser.
Add to this the fact that when pilots are near the ground, situation is far more dangerous and requires significantly more awareness
Re:If this really causes such a problem.... (Score:5, Funny)
Lasers bright enough to cause permanent blindness are banned under the UN Protocol on Blinding Laser Weapons [wikipedia.org], which both Ukraine and Russia have signed up to. Lasers that can cause temporary blindness are OK, though, apparently.
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I wonder if an array of cheap lasers (maybe 10x10) can be put together and pointed at enemy aircraft to temporarily blind enemy pilots over Ukraine.
Maybe a couple of 100 bucks to put it together.
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Solution: Move Planes from Densly Populated Areas (Score:2)
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Laws laws laws.... (Score:1)
Parents! Take these not-toys away from your children and adult-children now!
This is not a toy. I'm not saying we need a license to use them... but maybe a little more control on buying them. A 1mw or lower you should get from the corner store. See: Cats + Lasers on youtube! Anything more....? I hate to limit these because I even want a 40mw to "experiment" with. Last time I had a UV one my corrupt step son hijacked it and I was not able to get it back. Sold to a drug dealer. It was 5mw. I failed. It needed
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Currently, the rules (in the US, anyway) are that 5mW lasers and smaller you can buy with little regulation.
More than that, it gets more complicated. Here's some more details on the rules [fda.gov].
That said, there are some problems with these regulations --
* "Laser pointers" are limited, but one can buy other sorts of laser products that are more powerful but aren't strictly "laser pointers" ... but just about anything can be used as a laser pointer if you believe in it and yourself. ... or they can sell the disa
*
*
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* They can slap a 5mw label on a much higher power laser pointer
I've seen that one quite a few times with ebay/ali express buys.
They should be upset! (Score:2)
I read it as "Pilots content with record number of laser strikes", and I could not figure out from the summary why they were not upset, until I re-read the title...
Millions of $$$ in technology . . . (Score:1)
Millions of dollars in technology and it can be defeated by toy costing just a few dollars. What's wrong with this picture?
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What's right is toys are getting very cool now with high tech. And cheap.
Unfortunately people are getting very dumb with high tech.
Re:Millions of $$$ in technology . . . (Score:4, Informative)
Millions of dollars in technology and it can be defeated by toy costing just a few dollars. What's wrong with this picture?
Millions of years of evolution and you can be defeated by a wooden club found for free in the woods. What's wrong with this picture?
Animal lovers complain, but I'll say it again (Score:5, Funny)
Pilots Contend With Record Number of Laser Strikes
This is one more reason cats can't be pilots.
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You forgot a link to the meme [fjcdn.com].
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WTF. Link is broken and wrong.
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Sorry about that. I guess that site is some sort of link farm. Try this one [chzbgr.com].
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Welp, in that case, we just have to train our hooman pilots not to chase laser strikes on the walls and ceilings of their planes like a feline starved for entertainment.
Or. Progressively, we might employ some laser resistant coating to the cockpit glass... It's like 50 bucks or some such. [lasersafet...stries.com]
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This one is a pilot. https://www.reddit.com/r/teena... [reddit.com]
Find then punish in an exemplary manner. (Score:2)
Trolling with UAS in high-strike areas could be one way to target terrorists (anyone attempting to disrupt air transport by assaulting aircrew is a terrorist). Then throw them in jail for a decade or so as example to others (which is their only possible value as the characteristics of those who lase innocent aircrew are beyond redemption).
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Prison cannot cure stupidity in those imprisoned or others. If these people understood how dangerous their stupid stunts are, they would not do them.
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If these people understood how dangerous their stupid stunts are, they would not do them.
That is a hard maybe. There are plenty of assholes who act like assholes on purpose.
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If these people understood how dangerous their stupid stunts are, they would not do them.
That is a hard maybe. There are plenty of assholes who act like assholes on purpose.
Trying to bring down a plane or helicopter? Not likely. Even the most stupid person must know that doing so will result in a determined man-hunt.
Use only specific frequencies for laser pointers (Score:2)
block / screen out those specific frequencies using windows and windshields, laser proof eyewear or lower the power of the laser pointers
we could always edit the gene pool and eliminate the stupid gene and thereby fix many problems
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In the case of the article they are talking about helicopters. There are plenty of helicopters flying low enough in my neighborhood literally every night that they rattle my windows. You can feel the whole house shake. Maybe set a minimum altitude and the problem will largely solve itself as most laser pointers really don't have that long of a range. Still dick move for someone to do with a laser but I also feel like its gotten out of control at least in Phoenix metro area.
I also think most people just d
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Where I live, the loudest helicopters are medical evac helicopters, but its difficult to argue that they should not be allowed to fly emergency missions.
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I think the Birmingham (UK) police service have one helicopter, and I imagine it has to fly fairly low over the city, because the police are looking for criminals on the ground. The noise is a bit annoying in the middle of the night, but it does not happen very often.
Detect it and notify authorities (Score:2)
I wonder if is it possible to design a device that can detect the laser and its direction, triangulate its position and call the police?
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Yep, an MIT Lab that does a lot of work with the FAA has demonstrated one a few years ago. Not sure if it actually called the cops, but this article indicates triangulation in 30 seconds, with an error margin in the tens of feet.
https://www.laserfocusworld.co... [laserfocusworld.com]
Maybe this latest news will provide impetus to deploy the tech.
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I'd like to have an automatic star pointer on a gimble. But it needs to be smart and not "hit" any aircraft or even maybe space craft.
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If you have enough power to be useful for anything other than pointing out constellations to your friends, you're probably looking at a whole bunch of paperwork and interaction with the FAA and the Laser Clearing House (which used to be part of Air Force Space Command; I don't know if maybe it's Space Force now). I dealt with some of those guys while working at observatories with "laser guide stars." No, we never hit anybody.
How hard would it be to catch them? (Score:1)
I'm not a tech-wizard - Seriously, what would it take to target these guys, send in officers and snag them? Sooner or later there's going to be deaths attributable to this behavior, so we clearly need to make examples of a few antisocial jerks to discourage it.
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See my first comment under "Detect it and notify authorities." The tech exists; it probably just needs broad deployment.
Why do people do this? (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been lasered when flying into Modesto. The problem is that you don't know how dangerous the laser is because you don't know if you got the full beam or just the edge. There are also ways (not going to discuss here) to make it far more hazardous than it looks. So you have to block your vision from that direction, I also doused all the lights on my plane, making it more of a hazard to other aircraft.
I've also heard of people shooting guns at low flying planes - and sometimes they hit. One guy who was arrested responded with "I didn't think I would actually hit it". (OK, so why the F did you shoot at it?).
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Noise.
But that's nothing like the racket on a cell block just before curfew.
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Of course if people are bothered by noise, they can report the aircraft (use flighaware to get the tail #) and that may have a real impact.
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...until someone just randomly looks up, and sees Something Very Big quietly going over, with lights on the corners... [BlackTriangleUFO.jpg]
Re:Why do people do this? (Score:5, Interesting)
I honestly don't get it.
I was in a cockpit of a plane which was being absolutely blasted by lasers when landing in Egypt. I was very surprised at how debilitating it was and how the pilots had to instantly hunch down to do an instruments only landing whilst not looking at the canopy.
Like you I also did not get it. I racked my brain and thought about many different possible motivations. Then later on, when I was walking around in the city center, I saw tons of people waving around powerful laser pointers that they'd bought on the street for very little money.
Those people were children.
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I think it's mostly children (of any age up to 87 years) who have a toy that makes a beam that goes way into the sky, and they wonder if they can see it on an airplane. They aren't thinking through the consequences. They're just curious and act on an impulse.
Some are bullies. Have you seen trolls on the net? They get a thrill out of causing grief. Those are the ones who will go to some effort to stabilize it and give you constant glare instead of flashes.
Neither group gets anything tangible out of it.
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Indeed. There is a lot of people that never grow up and never undersand that some things require thinking before doing.
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Err yes you can. Maybe not one at altitude but an aircraft close to the ground lights up beautifully when hit by a laser. There are a great many YouTube videos of this.
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Simple: "Cave-man points at flying thing and grunts excitedly." It really is abysmal stupidity and non-understanding of the dangers. Just think of all the kids that find a loaded gun their parents left unsecured and then have horrible accidents. Many people are stupid and incapable of reasonable risk-management.
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Pointing a laser at an aircraft is the same kind of stupid as playing silly buggers with a drone near an airport, and chucking bricks off a bridge onto motorway traffic. People doing this are very unlikely to be caught, which is maybe one of the reasons why they do it.
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They burned ants with magnifying glasses as kids.
About 3% of the population are psychopaths and half of them aren't tied up with politics.
Pilot here (Score:4, Interesting)
camera between outside world and pilots' eyes ? (Score:2)
Ok, so what if all direct vision of the surroundings pilots have, through glass, is replaced by LCD screens , fed by multiple redundant outward facing cameras ? Will pilots in general be ok with that, or would they insist on vision through glass ?
Cameras, even low tech ones, can fix most optical attacks on pilots, not just lasers.
Ash Justice (Score:2)
Some people just need to be beaten with sticks.
scared straight (Score:2)
the kids can go from playing an game of laser tag to an game of don't drop the soap.
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Does not work. Prison does not cure stupidity. And you can only fear doing wrong if you understand you are doing wrong. This probably needs to be mandatory teaching in school with (simulated) demonstration for everyone before it stops.
"This is not an arcade game" (Score:2)
The kids doing this probably have no idea what an arcade game is.
you can't depend on behavior for safety (Score:2)
Dumb Cunts (Score:2)
I was driving down hill, in the rain towards one of these morons when the light refraction's from his laser lit up my cabin - it was really dis-orienting. I can't imagine what it is like for a pilot with night vision on.
Cockpit glass can't be made to deflect frequency? (Score:2)
May the cost would be prohibitive.
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Maybe. It's 2022 and /. still has no edit.
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Laser frequencies vary. Especially on cheap ones.
Ban unlicensed sale of lasers. (Score:3)
If lasers are that dangerous, then you should have a license to own and operate a laser, and it should be illegal to sell a laser to someone without a license. Let's face it, a laser is not an essential piece of kit. I don't have one, and I don't know anybody who does. For most of history, people could do presentations and so on without needed anything more than a slim stick to point with.
The advantage of targeting retail is that you are not searching for perps who disappear after doing the damage. Instead, you have more or less fixed establishments, who are presumably trying to make a profit. Sure, there could be a black market, but it is still easier to go after rogue retailers than to chase their customers.
It is worth contrasting this with other dangerous items. Knives come to mind. You can't really demand that people have a license to own a set of cook's knives, even though such tools have been used to stab people. Almost all households have such knives, and I would say they are essential if you are doing any cooking at home. Of course, when it comes to prosecuting people who use knives for violence, there is generally a great deal more evidence than there would be in a laser blinding incident, so the police are much more likely to find the perp.
You see them... (Score:2)
What aren't they banned? (Score:1)