Another Standardized Test Falls? America's Law Schools Could Stop Using the LSAT (msn.com) 100
America's law schools "would be given a green light to end admission test requirements," reports the Washington Post, "under a recommendation from a key committee of the American Bar Association that is scheduled for review in a public meeting this month."
The proposal still faces layers of scrutiny within the ABA and would not take effect until next year at the earliest. If approved, it could challenge the long-dominant role of the Law School Admission Test, or LSAT, in the pathway to legal education.
Some context from The Week US: Like the SAT in undergraduate admissions, the LSAT has been accused of racial bias and promoting a destructive obsession with rankings. Critics also argue that the LSAT, which was designed to predict academic performance, has little connection to professional accomplishment....
The incentives for law schools to dump the LSAT aren't only political, though.... [L]aw schools face declining applications after a pandemic-driven spike in interest. That's partly because word is getting out that the legal profession isn't as glamorous or lucrative as people imagine or the media depict. Accepting alternate exams, such as the GRE, or going test-optional altogether can help pump up enrollment, particularly at marginal institutions.
The article points out that admitted law students will still eventually have to pass the official certifying "bar exam" before they're ever allowed to actually practice law.
Some context from The Week US: Like the SAT in undergraduate admissions, the LSAT has been accused of racial bias and promoting a destructive obsession with rankings. Critics also argue that the LSAT, which was designed to predict academic performance, has little connection to professional accomplishment....
The incentives for law schools to dump the LSAT aren't only political, though.... [L]aw schools face declining applications after a pandemic-driven spike in interest. That's partly because word is getting out that the legal profession isn't as glamorous or lucrative as people imagine or the media depict. Accepting alternate exams, such as the GRE, or going test-optional altogether can help pump up enrollment, particularly at marginal institutions.
The article points out that admitted law students will still eventually have to pass the official certifying "bar exam" before they're ever allowed to actually practice law.
No Standard is the Best Standard in Utopia (Score:5, Funny)
enjoy your subjectively qualified doctor soon
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the LSAT has been accused of racial bias
100% Bullshit. It is impossible for a test to be "racially biased". You either know something or you don't.
going test-optional altogether can help pump up enrollment
Great. Let's admit more stupid, unqualified people. What could possibly go wrong.
admitted law students will still eventually have to pass the official certifying "bar exam"
Admitting more stupid, unqualified people will mean fewer people able to pass the bar exam, which will result in more pressure to eliminate the bar exam or make it easier to pass. And the downward spiral into a more stupid society continues.
Right now, nobody cares because it's just lawyers and everyone hates lawyer
Re: No Standard is the Best Standard in Utopia (Score:3, Insightful)
Entitlement taken to the extreme.
I worked my ass off to get somewhere without college. I just had to pick a profession without stupid bar exams or guilds holding back admission.
I wasn't able to just complain my way past. I had to figure out how to make something of myself despite coming from less-than-ideal home situations.
I totally agree with the OP. This is watering down of society.
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And I worked my ass off to get somewhere *with* college. Now I hear they don't even *grade* some classes because it "disrupts the learning experience." I can't think a degree you get under those conditions is going to be worth much. And if you are talented, there's no proof you are any different than the useless ones from those schools.
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Are you whinging about that prof who stopped grading assignments set during the course and had all the grading done at the end instead? There was an article about it here and it made a lot of people irrationally angry. Apparently slashdotters have very, very strong feelings about continuous grading vs finals.
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No- there are some courses with literally *no* grade. I know- I have a friend who is teaching one in arizona. It seems like auditing to me but it's not.
All you can say is "they took the course". That's it.
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What matters is the final test. Everything up to that point is just helping the students see where they need to improve. If they pass that final test then it's proven that they have the knowledge and skill required.
Oddly performance reviews are becoming metric base (Score:2)
Management performance reviews based on subjective interviews tend to favor people the manager "speaks the same language" with and so many companies are going more and more ti metric based hires and performance reviews to avoid that "he's just like Bob" syndrome where people keep hiring people like themselves.
Doing away with a metric that is correlated to college success is stupid. If you want diversity you need to add more types of tests not remove standard tests. Otherwise the diversity you get isn't go
Re: No Standard is the Best Standard in Utopia (Score:1)
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IQ tests were once used to prove that white people were superior to black people. Of course, the fact that the black people in question are living in an apartheid state was ignored.
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There is already a huge push for "diversity" and "inclusion" in medicine. There are already plenty of incompetent docs who made it through med school based on affirmative action.
Re:No Standard is the Best Standard in Utopia (Score:4, Funny)
No need for my doctor to know medicine, they interviewed top of their class!
What do you call the Dr. that finished last (Score:2)
What do you call the Dr. that finished last in class?
Doctor.
Standardized does not mean "objective." (Score:2)
Why should one question be asked and not another? Why should that question be phrased this way instead of that? Simple: Because your subjective opinion thinks it should.
That's fine as far as it goes, but there's no reason to think that question is better asked on an exam than in an interview or a project argument.
Moreover, the subject is admissions, not graduation or professional certification.
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enjoy your subjectively qualified [by himself] doctor soon
FTFY
But you can hope he decides to go to the Senate and stop practicing medicine. He wasn't ever going to get it right. But the Senate is the real clown show of America now.
"Destructive obsession with rankings" (Score:4, Interesting)
Equity in chess masters (Score:4, Funny)
Will that be the end of all competitive sports or online gaming? I can already see a future where competitions are outlawed because losers may be offended.
I was thinking about the whole equity thing, and realized that chess masters have no blacks and no women [chess.com].
Where is the diversity?
We need to change this. The fact that people of color and women are underrepresented among chess masters worldwide is a clear sign of both sexism and racism, there can be no other explanation.
We could split chess tournaments into men's and women's leagues, as with (some) other sports. That would solve the sexism problem, but not the racism.
I think the best solution is to have diversity quotas among chess clubs, and let the individual clubs figure out how to achieve that. We already do this with corporations and college admissions, the disparity among chess masters is so stark that doing this is a no-brainer.
Rather than rank chess masters based on their raw scores, perhaps a more nuanced system could be implemented, one that takes into account the player's upbringing and social status. Something like they do at top-end universities today.
Let's all come together to help bring this archaic system of chess rankings into the 21st century!
Re: Equity in chess masters (Score:1)
There is no difference between men and women, at least for swimming. So chess is perfectly non-sexist because sex doesnâ(TM)t exist.
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There is no difference between men and women, at least for swimming
I hope you were being sarcastic and it went woosh over my head.
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Probably a reference to the current furor over transwomen winning US college swimming events.
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There is no difference between men and women, at least for swimming.
It seems that women can hold their own against men in long distance swimming (e.g. Channel Crossing, although the current world record holder is a man.)
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The common equalizer in chess is to spot a few pieces. Perhaps chess clubs could create lists of how many pieces to spot for each category of sex, gender, ethnicity, class, social status, upbringing, style and moxie.
NFL and Grammy Quotas (Score:2)
To combat the underrepresentation of East Asians in Grammy awards a cap will be set on how many singers from a single race can be nominated for an award.
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The fact that people of color and women are underrepresented among chess masters worldwide is a clear sign of both sexism and racism, there can be no other explanation.
That is hardly a secret. First rule of chess: white always moves first.
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Chess and certain other sports are mostly played at high level by people from middle class and above backgrounds. They might need expensive equipment to play, or tutoring to master.
So as usual, it comes down to economic inequalities. Quotas can help by forcing institutions that tutor young chess players to take on some under-represented categories, with things like scholarships to give them those opportunities.
If you have a better idea, let's hear it.
Social studies (Score:2)
[citation needed] A basic search for LSAT vs passing bar wasn't particularly productive but there most certainly was a correlation with little I could find. One gets tired of these "critics" with their assertion of facts supported by dubious or cherry picked "studies".
From the relevant paper:
For example, Texas Tech found that the LSAT explained a noteworthy, but limited, 13 percent of the variance in bar exam scores of its law graduates.
In the social sciences, something that explains 13% of the variation is huge.
Before we dump LSAT testing, how about we first identify a better selection criteria?
I might suggest first testing the candidate for conscientiousness [wikipedia.org], followed by fluid intelligence [wikipedia.org], and then Creativity [wikipedia.org].
All of these are well-established in the literature, and easily measured using non-biased tests. Such as the Raven's progressive matrices [wikipedia.org] test for intelligence, which is about as non-biased as one can get.
Su
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For example, Texas Tech found that the LSAT explained a noteworthy, but limited, 13 percent of the variance in bar exam scores of its law graduates.
It's interesting and ironic that the relatively low correlation of one standardized test, the LSAT, to another, the bar exam, is used as support for the lack of usefulness/fairness/etc. of the former but not the latter.
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I have a brother that is 4 years older than me. He graduated college the same year I graduated high school. After college my brother wanted to go to law school. He thought it would be a good idea to get some practice LSAT tests. He and I both took one cold with no study, I did much better than him. Then he studied for the test for a while and ended up doing well. Other than the fact that he was willing to put in the work, I'm not sure what the score really says.
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FWIW, my brother was in GATE as a kid, honors in high school, National Merit on the SAT, went to a university that you've heard of and graduated with a BA in English, before going to law school. Reading comprehension and reasoning were not shortcomings of his.
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Other than the fact that he was willing to put in the work, I'm not sure what the score really says.
That is what these scores always mean!
Standardized tests don't measure "intelligence" or "professional skills". But they do measure the "willing to put in the work" factor. Obviously that's far from the only consideration but it is important.
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My several books with past tests led me to score a 165 on a first practice shot. While admittedly a 90th percentile score, this didn't match my goals or intended plans. Running through sections for a month during happy hour while sipping my first beer, and then joining my friends to drink until the late evening, put me in a spot wher
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What does that anecdote tell you? Just that everyone should do a few practise tests.
This is the same for all aptitude tests, including IQ: practice with the format and question types helps a bit.
You could try to prevent anyone from preparing, but it is so much easier to have everyone do some practise.
If the aptitude test is well written, students will soon hit diminishing returns.
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Other than the fact that he was willing to put in the work, I'm not sure what the score really says.
It says you have a basic level of literacy and comprehension. This indicates you were willing to put in some work at some point in your life.
Do you think it should say something else?
Grades are made up (Score:2)
Idiots (Score:5, Interesting)
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Reducing the entrance requirements makes it easier to get into law school. Keeping the bar exam makes it the same degree of difficulty to enter the profession. The result is more students spending time and money when they shouldn't since they won't make it out the other end.
Who does it help if lowering the entrance requirements also increases the d
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Cool Idea, we make sure all of our dip-shit lawyers have rich as fuck bulldozer parents, that'll end "racism" and enhance diversity. I'm sure that'll work much better than something mundane like fixing public schools so that everyone has an honest shot at a seat in law school.
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It's a "key committee" not the set of all lawyers. The "key committee" you can be sure has been packed to ensure "diversity" and "inclusion" and the people on it probably killed their grandmother to get there so they could impose their "vision" on society.
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Which school? They publish their stats, so we should be able to observe this effect in the data.
Good (Score:3)
We really could use less competent lawyers. And no I am not being sarcastic.
Subject tests (Score:2)
So a hard science or math, or reading philosophy, tends to maximize the LSAT score. How this degree translates to bar passing rate there does not seem to data. It seems below a 150 there is less than a fifty percent passing rate for the br, which wo
This just allows uni's to have more customers (Score:4, Insightful)
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More votes for Democrats (Score:1)
When people become fucked by student debt and no meaningful career opportunities, they are captive voters for life. Facilitating that situation is beneficial.
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Well, sure. As Will Rogers said, "Democrats never agree on anything, that's why they're Democrats. If they agreed with each other, they would be Republicans."
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They'll do more, they'll raise taxes and tell us we have to endure shortages and high inflation because of Putin, what a farce.
Real reason why LSAT is going away ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Sweet irony here. Between 1970s and the mid 1990s the same Old Guard increased H1B quota and imported highly skilled people from India and China at bargain bottom prices. They worked like dogs and kept the wages low. By Y2K the immigration mix changed. Really highly skilled Asians refused to immigrate, their prospects back were much better. The fresh off the boat Indian skill level is abysmal of late.
But the original gang that came through the competitive examinations several orders of magnitude tougher than these SAT/ACT/LSAT/GMAT. That gang's children are knocking at the doors of the universities. These are the kids that sweep spelling bee, geography bee, high school quiz and every damn thing that Old Guard touted as a sign of merit.
When Democracy, Constitution and Rule of Law kept the power in the hands of Old Guard, these were the mantra they were chanting day in day out. The moment their grip on power seems to be shaky, they are willing to sacrifice Democracy itself. Changing the rules of the game to keep the power is the standard operating procedures for them.
They will pretend they are doing this to accommodate the "traditionally disadvantaged minorities". Don't be fooled it is being to done to keep the power in the hands of current Kings of the Hill.
Divide and Rule (Score:2)
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and African troops to Indian Rebellions.
Where did you "learn" that Bullshit?
4 Types of lawyers (Score:5, Interesting)
Almost all law jobs fall into one of 4 categories
1) Corporate Lawyers that get rich (aka 1%) from very long hours, after years of long hours working for a firm and/or good connections to litigious clients. But many if not most burn out before they hit the big money. Not everyone can work 20 years doing 70+ hours a week.
2) Prosecutors and Legal Aid who hope for a political career or want to do good but get paid crap. Middle class salary unless they come from money.
3) Lawyers in private practice/in house counsel that at best dislike their clients (whether they are criminal defense, corporate, or divorce whatever), who make an Upper Class but never make that sweet sweet 1%er salary.
4) Lawyers that quit practicing law.
The LSAT is a crappy prediction of success as a lawyer, or even passing the bar. But it is a GOOD prediction of whether you will graduate law school. Guess which prediction the law schools care about...
Re:4 Types of lawyers (Score:5, Funny)
Good points. I can't add to them, so I'll just leave these other points:
Q: What do you call a lawyer with an IQ of 70?
A: Your honor.
Q: What do you call a lawyer gone bad?
A: Senator.
Q: How does an attorney sleep?
A: First he lies on one side and then on the other.
Q: What's wrong with lawyer jokes?
A: Lawyers don't think they're funny and other people don't think they're jokes.
Q: How many lawyer jokes are there?
A: Only three. The rest are true stories.
And remember the motto, first-years: Just because you’re guilty doesn’t mean you ARE guilty!
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Q: What is 10 000 lawyers on the bottom of the ocean?
A: A good start
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Yeah, that's a good moldy oldie.
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Guy driving down the road, sees a priest hitchhiking, picks him up. Driving down the road, they both see a lawyer walking along the side of the road.
The driver starts to swerve to hit him, but then realizes he has a priest sitting in the car. So he swerves away in time, yet hears a loud THUD as the lawyers flies up into the air. The driver, horrified that a priest just witnessed him committing a murder, apologizes profusely and insists he thought he had swerved away in time.
"Don't worry," the priest says
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"Forgive me Father, for I have missed"
"God works in mysterious ways" said the priest, closing the door.
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Yeah? Good. Hope you hire that comic to defend you next time.
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The LSAT is a crappy prediction of success as a lawyer, or even passing the bar
"Success" of a lawyer is pretty nebulous concept (salary? fame?), so it is hard to say.
But do you have a citation to support the second part of the claim? LSAT may not predict anything about one's intelligence or skills as a lawyer, but it does correlate with capacity to prepare for standardized tests. Therefore I expect it to be a decent predictor of passing the bar.
Research has shown that LSAT scores correlate with scores on the bar exam. Each year, as matriculantsâ(TM) LSAT scores at some law schools have gotten lower and lower, graduatesâ(TM) MBE scores have similarly dropped. In fact, in some states, bar exam passage rates have sank to their lowest in decades.
From: https://abovethelaw.com/2016/0... [abovethelaw.com]
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I beat the system. I took the LSAT and got a high score, but never applied to any law school. (I did it as practice for the GRE, which was conveniently scheduled for the next weekend. (Also got a high score on that exam, but my evidence is that it does not predict success in graduate school.))
However, I have figured out the important success criteria for a successful lawyer. Really reduces to one criterion. It is getting to pick your clients rather than having to accept the troublesome ones. Interestingly e
legal profession isn't as glamorous or lucrative (Score:3)
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Like any other profession it does take time to get established. You come aboard a firm (hopefully a big/good one) and do BS work for partners 12-16 hours a day, for years. But hopefully over time you impress them. As folks retire, a few of the best and most experienced associates make partner, new grads come on board as staff or associates, the other associates move up, etc., but it does take a decade or longer, and you're not really making great money until you do make partner. Plus, you have to buy in
Alternative Admission Criteria (Score:2)
If law schools don't use LSAT then obviously they will use alternative criteria. What comes to mind:
GPA. So the thing to do is to drop the academically challenging courses (because you might only get a B or worse) and take the easy ones.
Letters of recommendation. How many members of the elite (doctors and other professionals...) do you think lower income minority students know--compared to the rich kid whose neighborhood is filled with them?
pointless testing (Score:1)
Why bother with an inconvenient, expensive test that tries to measure a candidate's knowledge? All they really need to know is the candidate's skin color and current gender.
Young people⦠(Score:1)
Disparate results are not evidence of bias (Score:1)
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I'm not one for rewarding lack of achievement. I don't think that does favors for anyone.
However, if certain minority groups are doing more poorly on a test that's supposed to be a test of merit, achievement, or preparedness, as compared to others, then I don't think it's unreasonable to ask why, and to take steps to correct the reasons.
If an "IQ" test asks me to list the location of the nearest country club, I'm way more likely to be able to answer successfully if I live in Rich Whitepeopleville Hills, ra
Fix the root cause (Score:2)
Want to help "underprivileged"? Do it right.
Don't get them saddled with a useless degree and lifetime of student debts. Even if they graduate, and many will not, they will be unable to find a job.
What is next? Will you drop BAR exams? Will the reputable firms hire those people with relaxed or removed BAR requirements?
Think again. The reason these students cannot keep up starts way back, in primary school, or even pre-school. If by 5th grade, you could not teach them proper reading and math skills, they will
tests are not failing (Score:3)
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They just don't given an outcome that modern leftists want
They don't given [sic] any outcome. This doesn't need to be political (despite your whining). If you put a test as an entry requirement then people will teach to the test. Standardised testing is a fucking terrible way of teaching basically anything.
There's a reason many professional put weight on practical experience, projects or other forms of critical thinking.
I honestly don't understand why Americans are so infatuated with testing.
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"why Americans are so infatuated with testing"
a) Because it's impractical to put every candidate directly in practical experience, not the least because failing the practical experience means some real work didn't get completed.
b) Because *a* practical experience may not be representative of *every* practical experience.
The problem with using testing is that testing is a model: all models are wrong; some are useful.
Standardized tests tend to be irrelevant. (Score:2)
You can argue that it measures the ability to think quickly, but that's a reason to admit someone into a game show, not a graduate program.
Too much supply for demand (Score:2)
I would argue that legal education in the U.S. is similar to graduate degrees in the humanities: they both prey off of hopes, dreams, and unrealistic expectations. Starting with the humanities, U.S. graduate schools turn our far, far more newly minted Ph.D.'s than can ever be absorbed in academia. As a result, most, yes most, of those newly minted Ph.D.'s will go through their careers without a chance to ever get a tenure-tracked job, healthcare, or retirement.
Law schools are in a similar boat because ther
The Law is not hard (Score:2)