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Earth Transportation

Germany Slashes Summer Train Fares More Than 90 Percent To Curb Driving, Save Fuel (yale.edu) 85

Posted by msmash from the how-about-that dept.
Germany's parliament has set summer train fares at 9 euros per month in a bid to slash pollution and curb imports of Russian oil by spurring drivers to take public transit. From a report: The initiative takes effect on June 1, with 9 euros covering the cost of all buses, trams, subways, and regional trains, effectively cutting fares by more than 90 percent in some cities. Berlin commuters will save 98 euros on their monthly travel pass, while commuters in Hamburg will save more than 105 euros, Bloomberg reported. Deutsche Bahn is adding 50 additional trains to absorb the expected increase in users. The reduced fares come with an estimated price tag of 2.5 billions euros, the cost to the German government of reimbursing transit companies for lost revenue. Critics have said the plan is too expensive and warned that a surge in travelers could overwhelm mass transit and rail lines. Some, however, have suggested that the initiative should go further.
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Germany Slashes Summer Train Fares More Than 90 Percent To Curb Driving, Save Fuel More

Germany Slashes Summer Train Fares More Than 90 Percent To Curb Driving, Save Fuel

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  • Why only 90% (Score:5, Insightful)

    by nospam007 ( 722110 ) * on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:53PM (#62581344)

    Luxembourg slashed 100% 2 years ago.

    That way you don't need ticket salesmen nor their managers and the manager's bosses, offices for them, ticket machines, ticket controllers, IT, safes, money transport, bus-driver don't get robbed because they don't have any money and and

    The German way you have the same fixed costs and fill up 90% with tax money.
    Hardly viable.

    • Re:Why only 90% (Score:5, Insightful)

      by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @03:56PM (#62581358)

      If you're going to talk about fixed costs and viability you should also look at relative wealth, tax income per capita, tax expense per capita, population density, and the myriad of other things you're ignoring.

      Everytime you ask yourself "Why do Place W only do X when Place Y does Z", the answer is nearly always, you haven't considered the usually rather massive differences between Place W and Place Y. There's many reason why something which works in Luxembourg, may not work in many (or even all) of Germany's cities. Hell there's many reasons this will be a roaring success in some German cities and a colossal failure in others.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Zehsi ( 5630632 )
        tru dat, Luxembourg is a crazy rich place but so is Germany.

        • Luxembourg is a little smaller than 2 Londons put together, itâ(TM)s a large city with a castle, some suburbs and some farms. And due to its low corporate and income tax policy for the continent it has amassed a very high wealth and thus tax income in comparison to the burden for its citizens.

        • Not comparable. Germany is a crazy *big* place, there's a difference. The GDP per capita of Luxembourg is more than double that of Germany. The mean income of the population 1.8x that of Germany. Tax revenue per capita is almost 3x that of Germany. All the while the urbanisation rate sits in the 90% while Germany down in the 70s making public transport spending by government more efficient for its citizens and cheaper per capita in Luxembourg too.

      • Well a lot of the time "but it's different so it can't work" is just some sort of exceptionalism used to justify not not even trying something. Oh no population density/income/ethnicity/age/gender split is different it'll never work. So the reason "Why do Place W only do X when Place Y does Z" is often that place W doesn't want to.

        • Well a lot of the time "but it's different so it can't work" is just some sort of exceptionalism used to justify not not even trying something.

          Indeed. You may think so when you don't look at the bigger picture. But when talking about a government providing something you need to look at tax. Germany's tax revenue per capita is less than 2/3rds that of Luxembourg, tax revenue per GDP is less than 1/2, average wealth is lower. So that gives you part of the financial equation.

          Then you look at economic activity generated by providing infrastructure. The urbanisation rate of Luxembourg is above 90%, in Germany it's 77% which means your efforts go furthe

      • If you want to look at broader economic effects, also consider the effects of such a move on tax revenue. If economic activity goes up as a result of cheaper public transport, it's not impossible that they could make the money back in increased tax revenue. For example, although it's on a smaller scale, London made all its galleries & museums free a few years ago. The increase in tax revenue from increases in economic activity more than made up for the loss in ticket revenue. Cities with effective, effi

      • Luxembourg is a small town. Germany is a 80million people country.

        And my last trips to there did not indicate that public transport is free ...

      • " There's many reason why something which works in Luxembourg, may not work in many (or even all) of Germany's cities. "

        Slashing 90% income without compensation will ruin you everywhere.

        • Slashing 90% income without compensation will ruin you everywhere.

          No it won't. Public utilities and public services are not necessarily for profit enterprises that generate only income for the operator. Transport infrastructure especially pays for its own costs through increased economic activity (reads: tax income). Sidenote: Luxembourg isn't ruined and are showing no signs of reversing their scheme. Neither is Tallinn which has prospered on the back of free public transport for nearly a decade now.

          But what works in some places may not work in others.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by mm4902 ( 3612009 )
        But if you don't acknowledge the context than it doesn't exist. Why do you think gun advocates talk about Switzerland?

    • The German way you have the same fixed costs and fill up 90% with tax money.
      Hardly viable.

      The plan is to restore the payments later. As the airlines are finding, if you fire the skilled people, expecting to hire them again later, those skilled people go off and do something different and aren't always happy to come back.

      Let's just make this simple. This is a great plan for now and a good example of leadership. If Germany would just override Scholtz and provide heavy weapons to Ukraine then you might even say they were showing the rest of the world the way.

      • Germany is providing heavy weapons to Ukraine, since months.

        No idea why after the Merkel hate now the internet id full with Scholz hate.

        Perhaps you should stop reading the wrong newspapers.

        • Do you disagree with this Politico article [politico.eu]? There are heavy weapons promised. There are seven artillery pieces delivered after the Dutch basically forced the issue and apart from that all the other "deliveries" have not actually happened. As the war wears on the supply of T-72s in the West will run out. For Ukraine to have a chance, starting to deliver ore sustainable things like export versions of Leopard 2s soon is going to be needed.

          • Germany is in a "Ring Tausch Program", that means, as in "ring", you exchange heavy material.

            Germany is delivering to Poland and Greece for instance and Poland and Greece is moving their stuff forward to Ukraine.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by sd4f ( 1891894 )

          Because it's just lip service, and it's obvious now, that the Merkel, et al. have been either propping up Putin, or allowed themselves to be useful idiots. Ever since the helmet fiasco, it's clear that the German government is saying what is politically expedient, but its actions are clearly contradictory. It's clear that the German government doesn't want Ukraine to win, and, along with France, would much prefer for Ukraine to just be reasonable and give into Putin so that the war ends and everything goes

          • It's clear that the German government doesn't want Ukraine to win
            And from what do you conclude that?

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by sd4f ( 1891894 )

              And from what do you conclude that?

              The helmets laughing stock for one, like you couldn't be more cynical if you tried, but you also have all these articles that mention that even more recently, the aid Germany has stated that it will provide, hasn't been coming. On top of that, the resistance against applying sanctions against Russia, that was an issue a few months ago, as Germany was the chief country blocking early attempts to impose more serious sanctions.

    • Luxembourg slashed 100% 2 years ago.
      That way you don't need ticket salesmen ...

      Nice, but the country is super tiny. From Google:

      Luxembourg is one of the smallest countries in the world. ... about the same size as the county of Dorset in the UK and slightly smaller than Rhode Island in the US.

      For such a small country, Luxembourg also has many highways, making getting around the 60 mile by 30 mile country a breeze. You can drive from one end of it to another in roughly an hour and twenty minutes.

      • "You can drive from one end of it to another"

        Erm, I think you are missing the point.

        You can get public transport from one end of it to the other in 3 hours.

        • "You can drive from one end of it to another"
          Erm, I think you are missing the point.
          You can get public transport from one end of it to the other in 3 hours.

          Can't tell if you're trying to be funny... You didn't include the rest of the quote:

          You can drive from one end of it to another in roughly an hour and twenty minutes."

          Which is usually the hang-up with using public transport -- it takes longer and you have to walk, or get *another* ride, at both ends.

          • Walking at the end or switching buses / trains is only a problem for old people and Americans

            • Sorry, our nation isn't the equivalent of a quantum dot.

              • Your nation has a horrible public transport infrastructure. It is not a fault of the country per se, it was deliberately, methodically and exhaustively destroyed by the oil and car industry.

                Take for example New York City. This city is of course comparable or superior in population density and wealth to Tokyo, Beijing, Seoul, and of course also to Paris, Berlin, Moscow, Brussels. And yet, NYC public transport is so much worse in terms of price, comfort and interconnection of different lines. I have been to a

      • Nice, but the country is super tiny

        Well, and it looks like Luxembourg is about the size of Orleans Parish. And has comparable highways....;-p

      • "Nice, but the country is super tiny. "

        Sure but even a lemonade stand that slashes their price 90% will go bust.

    • Actually 90% is great and will have I expect the desired effect. I think they may consider this temporary and may in the future see the success/failure and take further action. They may want to keep those staff incase they decide to bump it up again, also they may actually be able to make money on 90%. Anyway I expect this to work and have a lot more people taking the trains.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Bob_Who ( 926234 )

      Luxembourg has the highest per capita wealth of any nation by far. They make Switzerland and Norway and UAE look middle class by comparison. They are geographically tiny and they can do it without it creating hardship to their labor force. Germany,has way more people, and a more structured labor arrangement that would upset all of the displaced labor, and cause uncertainty and alarm. They can be rigid and don't like this disruptive pressure from Russian oil supply. Going 90% is enough to fill the trains

    • This initiative is limited to three months, from June to August. So they are not going to let people go and implement huge changes in operations due to this, just yet.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by unami ( 1042872 )
      As if bus drivers would ever get robbed for money in Luxembourg of all countries...

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Do they have manual ticket vending in Germany? Most places seem to have gone over to entirely digital, with contactless cards and phone apps.

      • Yes, we have manual ticket vending. Contactless cards and apps are a thing, but we Germans tend to be a bit resisant to change and move slower than other countries as far as digitalization goes.

    • Not sure how Luxembourg handles it, but in most places when you make transit free the transit fills up with criminals. I mean, the criminals fare jump anyway, but at least you can remove them if they haven't paid without having to catch them in the act of committing a crime.

      In the SF bay area they tried making transit free during periods with high expected smog rates, and the result was spikes in crime, especially on Caltrain (which has fare enforcement on every train, so very few stowaways).

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Askmum ( 1038780 )
      Luxembourg population is just shy of 650.000, about the size of Stuttgart, Germany's 5th biggest city. So suggesting that you can do the same in Germany is a bit crazy. And it's only for three months, after that, its BAU.
      Mind you: this has a history. In 1995 they came with a weekend ticket for 15 DM (7,7 euro) for 5 people in an effort to fill the regional trains. It was hugely successfull and has basically endured to this day, albeit with massive price increases and changes in validity. It is now 70 euro

  • This is only in june, july and august.

    Source:
    https://www.bahn.com/en/offers... [bahn.com]

    • It's temporary now. In three months time they'll know if it is a good idea overall and extend it or not extend it.

      And remember it's all about reducing reliance on fuel from Russia. Who knows what's in three months, Putin might have a heart attack while falling out of a window just next week.

  • ... if there weren't several categories of long distance trains, several categories of regional trains, and several operating companies. At least two are subsidiaries of Deutsche Bahn, Germany's national railway company, and one of them is a regional rail operator, the other a long distance rail operator. Trains called 'Regional Express' are operated by both, and with both operators they look absolutely identical. But only when they're operated by the regional rail operator is the 9 Euro Ticket valid.

    And it

  • Not only they won't slash government revenue, at least in the northern CA region that I live they got rid of the monthly/daily passes long time ago. You can only pay for a single ride which I believe is $2 last time I heard. If you take a route to work that includes 2 transfers, your daily bus cost roundtrip is $12.

    • Hm, in VTA in Silicon Valley, if you use the Clipper card that $2.50 covers 2 hours of free transfers (buses and light rail). And you can get daily ($7.50), weekly, and even annual passes.

    • Connecticut just extended its free bus rides statewide through the end of the year. Like Germany, this is temporary and a response to high gas prices:

      https://www.cttransit.com/news/suspension-bus-fares-statewide-continues-until-december-1

    • London has a system where you pay when you get on the first bus, and then you can get on other busses for free for exactly 59 minutes and 59 seconds, plus finish the last journey no matter how long.

      Of course that is a challenge for some. I think the verified record is getting on 26 busses with one ticket. (The rule is that for that record you cannot get on a bus going into the same direction).

  • I don't think there is a way to take public transport between my house and my office. If there is it is multiple transfers and lots of walking at both ends. I'm sure I could just walk to work faster than taking the ridiculous public transit system.

    • If Amtrack cuts fares 90% I'm going to California and swimming in the Pacific Ocean.

    • I don't think there is a way to take public transport between my house and my office.

      There is for me. It's 35 minutes walk to the train station, then 35 minutes walk back home where my office is. If there is a requirement to actually get on a train, it takes longer.

  • See Germany while you can. (Score:4, Funny)

    by msobel ( 661289 ) on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @05:08PM (#62581592)
    Great opportunity to travel around Germany before Putin annexes it as historically part of Greater Russia.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by mm4902 ( 3612009 )
      If you don't speak English then you speak Russian and you're culturally Russian. That includes Israel, Jim Baker prophesied that Putin is trying to start the Apocalypse.

  • Lived In Germany, almost never took the train (Score:4, Interesting)

    by bkmoore ( 1910118 ) on Tuesday May 31, 2022 @05:16PM (#62581620)
    I lived for 10 years in central Germany and had a family with small children. I almost never took the train with my family, even though the DB has always offered various family discounts. The problems were (1) rail service to the town I lived in was discontinued in the 1990s when DB was privatized. The nearest train station was about 50 km away and the county bus involved two bus changes and took about an hour and a half if you were lucky. (2) Once you got to the train station, the trains were almost always running late or were cancelled, especially in the summer heat, or winter freeze. The slowest regional trains were often the only reliable ones. The ICE was almost always broken. (3) when you finally got on a train, there was no seating unless you reserved a seat, which was virtually impossible to do when traveling with small children, so you wound up standing in the sections between cars. When you did find a seat, by the next station someone would come along claiming they reserved that seat. (4) there was almost never any luggage space in the overcrowded trains. When traveling with children, I felt like a Sherpa. (5) A major train station in Germany might have one elevator and it's often out of order. Escalators are also often out of order, so you're toting multiple bags on multiple flights of stars, up and down and up and down again. I'd hate to be handicapped in Germany. (6) The strange looks you get from complete strangers when they see a family with multiple children on a train, like "Herr M., haven't you heard about birth control???" (7) People smoked on the trains and I didn't like breathing all that second-hand smoke and smelling like an ash tray by the time I got to my destination. (8) I once made the mistake of getting on a train after a football (soccer match), and it was full of drunken skin heads, there was literally a pool of beer on the floor. They were assaulting an foreign-looking woman and the police were nowhere to be found. I realized I was too cowardly to help her, as I was afraid one of them might have a knife or they would just gang up on me. I was glad I look German enough to not get harassed. I guess the police didn't have time for skinheads when some old diesel car probably has the wrong color Environmental Emissions sticker on its windshield.

    I guess as an American who's married to a German, I really shouldn't complain about the DB. At least Germany has a functioning passenger rail system. After almost 20 years, my home state of CA can't even build a single train from Modesto to Fresno, so there's that. I did take the train in Germany, but only if I was traveling alone without any sizeable baggage. Otherwise it was too big of a hassle, and driving was safer, quicker and more convenient. Maybe for city dwellers, the train's easier. But if you live in rural central Germany, forget it, especially after a SG Dynamo Dresden match.

    • Maybe it depends on the country. I had a friend who commuted to the university in Sweden every day while living in a tiny village surrounded by rural areas, while riding a bike to the station. Now maybe it was just luck to be in the right location, possibly they planned it that way (though the mother lived within walking distance, so I think it was luck). I do notice there actually are lots of rural train stations in Europe which is very rare in the US.

      • Yeah, I worked in Zurich for a few months exactly 20 years ago. Took the train (and "post" busses on smaller routes) everywhere around the country, even to small towns in neighboring Germany and as far as Stuttgart. A cousin who lived in the city didn't even own a car, even though he could. I thought, what a great system where everything just works, runs on time, and you can plan a whole route online (including a lot of different carriers e.g. flights and ferries, trams and ICEs, and across borders) from st

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jsonn ( 792303 )
      Just to be pedantic, but since it is a common urban legend: Deutsche Bahn was never privatized. It was turned into a corporation, but it is still 100% state owned. There is a certain truth to most of the rest, but it is also nowhere near as bad. Travelling by train is actually often nicer than going by car since you don't have to force the kids to sit still for ages. But it helps to reserve one of the "kids room" in the ICE. The main problem is that if you already own a car, group travel is just much more e

    • No idea waht your rant is about.

      (1) rail service to the town I lived in was discontinued in the 1990s when DB was privatized.

      DB is a pubic company, hold 99% by the government/state - so "privatized" does not mean what you think it means.

      (3) when you finally got on a train, there was no seating unless you reserved a seat, which was virtually impossible to do when traveling with small children, so you wound up standing in the sections between cars. When you did find a seat, by the next station someone would

    • The nearest train station was about 50 km away

      This must be the case of 1% of the German population. Or even less.

  • Honest question: Is cost really that big of a deciding factor about whether someone chooses to travel by train or by car for a given trip in Germany? Sure, it's important for some set of people, but for many people, the trains simply don't go where they need to go, or would add unacceptably long travel times.

    At least that's true in the US. Germany undoubtedly has a superior train network to the US, so perhaps this policy will be more successful there.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jsonn ( 792303 )
      Depends on who you ask. For a student, being able to travel for three months for 27EUR is a huge deal.

    • For longer trips, it has been a deciding factor for me that the train cost two to three times as much as a plane ticket. The time, when factoring in check-in and travel to and from airports might be the same, but costs were not, since airlines were effectively subsidized.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by udittmer ( 89588 )

      You really can't compare traveling by train in the US vs. Germany. The trains network is rather extensive here, with trains going at least several times a day even to remote places, and hourly service to most places. This reduced ticket is for city transport associations and regional trains, though, not the faster long-distance trains.

      How big of a factor cost is depends on personal choices as well as necessity. For me, the convenience of trains beats using the car or flying to many destinations, and I'm wil

  • I have seen some anonymous coward posting after nearly every comment on Slashdot in support of nuclear power that "nobody wants nukes!!"

    Where does anyone get this idea? Has anyone watched the polling in the last three years or so?
    https://www.prnewswire.com/new... [prnewswire.com]
    https://www.newsmax.com/scottr... [newsmax.com]
    https://www.nucnet.org/news/mo... [nucnet.org]

    I could just keep going on polls that show how people want nuclear power. The need for more nuclear power never really went away but we have been able to delay this because existing

    • Great but what is that to do with cheap trains. Do you want Nuclear trains now? I guess if the trains are electric they could be powered by Nuclear.

      • Re: (Score:1, Insightful)

        by MacMann ( 7518492 )

        Great but what is that to do with cheap trains.

        Trains need energy to move just like any vehicle needs energy to move. That energy can come from nuclear fission. Germans figured out how to make hydrocarbon fuels from most anything rich in carbon, rich in hydrogen, and energy from heat and/or electricity a long time ago. They need only build nuclear power plants for energy and dust off those old plans on how to mass produce hydrocarbon fuels to get cheap train travel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

        Do you want Nuclear trains now?

        We are going to get there some way and some how. T

  • > Germany Slashes Summer Train Fares More Than 90 Percent to Curb Driving, Save Fuel

    The primary driver is to reduce costs for citizens who have seen their ongoing expenses (especially energy) rise rapidly recently. Curbing driving and saving fuel are neither the primary purpose, nor will they likely happen, as the government saw fit to reduce fuel surcharges significantly over the same time frame.

    > Berlin commuters will save 98 euros on their monthly travel pass, while commuters in Hamburg will save m

  • But ... erhm, anyone here took a German train recently?

    I hope they also at least triple the number of trains on certain rails, because with some it already is a miracle and a half if you manage to find enough space to stand, let alone sit. Quite frankly, with some trains you don't need to hold on to something because falling down is virtually impossible anyway, if anything you need to know your stop at least 20 minutes in advance to get to the door in time.

    • Yes, On Sunday, in fact.
      Even though the railroad app warned that the train would be full and I should use a different train I had no problem finding a seat, as did several other passengers I saw that didn't have a seat reserved in advance.
      That was a long distance train (Cologne to Berlin).

      If you are talking about local trains it all depends on the time of day.
      In rush hour when many people are trying to get to work or back home from work the trains are full, sure. But the same is true for the streets at the

  • Just expensive enough to stop people from riding the train up and down all day. If you make it completely free, too many people will take it as free entertainment.

    And since travelling to work is tax deductible, the benefit for users is even larger. In Germany, you can deduct either the actual cost or 0.30 Euros per km each way from taxes. Assuming this costs a lot less than 0.30 Euros per km, it's a nice bit of extra cash for employees who don't work from home.

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