Farmer Says Dealer Wouldn't Repair His Tractor Until He Filed FTC Complaint (vice.com) 106
A farmer in Missouri said he had to go to complain to the Federal Trade Commission in order to get his tractor repaired by the only John Deere dealership in his area, showing how without the right to repair farmers are bound by the whims of the corporations who have a monopoly on repair. From a report:Jared Wilson had a problem with the AC in his John Deere tractor. It wasn't running and he needed to finish planting his corn and soybeans. The tractor would run, but finishing the plant would be a miserable experience in the heat of the Missouri spring. According to an affidavit Wilson filed to the FTC, he called the local John Deere dealership and asked for an appointment. The manager told him he didn't want his business. In the FTC complaint, Wilson is asking the commission to open a consumer protection investigation. Wilson and the manager talked on April 14, according to an affidavit about the incident filed with the FTC on April 16. Wilson told Motherboard he didn't know the AC had gone out until temperatures started creeping up in April. "When it hits 70 degrees it's almost unbearable inside the cab because it's all just glass and you've got a super hot motor sitting in front of you," he said.
It could have been worse (Score:3, Funny)
He could have had his farm in North Carolina.
Re:It could have been worse (Score:5, Funny)
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Locals not so much, but emmigrants most assuredly.
Re: It could have been worse (Score:1)
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cause its hot as balls down here in the south and the humidity is so thick you can feel the water flow around you just walking 70f (21ish c) feels chilly once you go south of the mason dixon... hell it was 73 here in Tennessee over Christmas, and I had to mow my lawn
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Related from yesterday: https://yro.slashdot.org/story/22/05/29/1958232/farm-equipment-dealers-block-right-to-repair-provision-in-north-carolina [slashdot.org]
You know what they say (Score:3)
He could have had his farm in North Carolina.
Well, you know what they say: Missouri loves company.
Interesting... didn't want his business... (Score:5, Insightful)
"I was not a ‘profitable customer,’ due to my repeated repair service complaints and written notices to John Deere’s corporate office about my dissatisfaction with Heritage Tractor’s repair services."
Now, I fully support the right to repair. Absolutely. And I also support a private business' right to fire a customer. In the end, Heritage did send somebody, but reluctantly. I think it's perfectly okay for them to walk away from this guy. John Deere, on the other hand... they should be on the hook.
I feel for the folks at Heritage. I really do.
Re: Interesting... didn't want his business... (Score:2)
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Unless you screw up the warranty service and have to fix your mistake at your own cost. That looks to be what happened here.
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The fact that the dealer no longer wants this customer speaks to the character of the customer
Maybe. It can also speak to the character of the business.
Most likely, both are troublesome to each other.
Unfortunately with everything else closing, and with the JD monopoly and service contracts they're stuck with each other. The farmer bound by service contracts to JD, and the shop bound by contract to do the servicing. Neither side likes it, and it would go away with right to repair, but until something changes that's how the contracts work.
Re: Interesting... didn't want his business... (Score:1)
Not sure about this particular situation, but authorized JD shops are a dime a dozen around here.
It sounds like a difficult customer, or a lemon. Either way weâ(TM)re not being told the full story.
Re: Interesting... didn't want his business... (Score:2)
Re: Interesting... didn't want his business... (Score:2)
The article talks about it. There is only one in the area, and it reads like JD helped the one company consolidate from three others that were closed after the shop became the exclusive local dealer.
Re:Interesting... didn't want his business... (Score:5, Informative)
Their problem with him is that he wants them to be accountable. You can hear in his testimony to the MO House of Representatives [youtu.be] that John Deere basically forced all the smaller dealers out of business to consolidate the larger dealers and that Heritage is one of the remaining large dealers.
It sounds like the other customers were getting equally bad service but not being as loud and talking to lawmakers, federal agencies, and the news. Their only problem with him is the bad publicity of their own incompetence.
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"Their only problem with him is the bad publicity of their own incompetence."
That may be true. But it doesn't change the fact that I would support their decision to simply not do business with him. It's a free-ish country.
Re:Interesting... didn't want his business... (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree with that in principle - but I believe that round of repairs was to fix a mistake from a previous repair so they have direct responsibility.
They could be free not to service him, but John Deere isn't free of their warranty responsibility so they might have to threaten to be free not to associate with Heritage any longer either.
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Getting into the weeds here... but yes, if it's repeated attempts to fix an existing problem, then yes, I think Heritage should own up and continue until it's done. But if this AC problem is a "new" one - i.e. Heritage hasn't worked on it - I'd say that not engaging is fair game.
Re:Interesting... didn't want his business... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Interesting... didn't want his business... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think the confusion here is that they are not a garage. They are a licensed John Deer facility for resolving warranty issues. By taking that (surely lucrative) license from John Deer they get a monopoly on the repair services for all the equipment around. And in return, I think it's completely understandable that they lose the ability to be picky about their customers.
force John Deere to buy back at full sticker price (Score:4, Insightful)
force John Deere to buy back at full sticker price if they don't want to service him any more.
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Might be an easy answer for John Deere, but less than okay for him. His business probably relies on something equivalent to that kind of machine. And given his vocal history, other suppliers might be reluctant to sell him anything.
It's a case where he might be both absolutely correct, and completely screwed.
Re:Interesting... didn't want his business... (Score:5, Insightful)
They are John Deer's exclusive dealer. That makes them John Deer's exclusive representative. They have no right to refuse. This is all a game to tie the client down. Well if the client is tied down so then the dealer should also be tied down. Lately it feels that laws are made so business can sell snake oil. Contracts rarely match the advertising that brings the consumer in. The issue is that everyone seems to be OK with it as long as it happens to another.
Re:Interesting... didn't want his business... (Score:5, Insightful)
The challenge we have is that the market has been distorted by manufacturers such as John Deere such that there isn't anywhere else to go for service. For things like automobiles we have laws that protect independent repair shops. For farm equipment, apparently, the laws are backward.
This is a good example of why the laws shouldn't be the way they are. People should be able to make their own repairs (if they have the skills) or hire a repair shop of their choosing if they lack the skills or inclination.
Don't look now, but that's unfair DISCRIMINATION. (Score:4, Interesting)
In a free country, they would have the right not to do business with this customer and the customer would have the right to take their business somewhere else.
I.e. The very basis of a NOT-a-free country.
What you seem to be doing is confusing a free country with a free market - which again, doesn't guarantee the second part of the statement above WHILE putting all the power in the hand of the business.
I.e. In a "free market" the customer has no power to force, beg or plead to be sold a product if the business simply refuses to do so.
In theory, another business would magically appear and take his money. In practice, he may as well start praying to... I don't know... Thor.
Maybe Natalie Portman or Christopher Hemsworth could get him a tractor. Or a pair of magical goats.
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Re:Interesting... didn't want his business... (Score:5, Interesting)
In a free country you get all the keys upon purchase of a product. It's not a free country when someone retains the ownership on your purchase.
Freedom stops where another persons freedom begins. We play with words and justify our bias. In the US freedom is based on how much money you have and how many politicians you can buy. The tech industry has bought lawmakers so they can sell their products and retain ownership. Since John Deer is the true owner who holds the keys for repairs they have no right to choose not to do business with him and the dealer as a John Deer official repair shop has no right to refuse.
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There's a reason why monopoly and anti-competitive law is the way it is. It is generally reasonable. It is not a test of free or non-free. It's a test along the lines of reasonable (reasonable level of competition, access prices...).
I personally think that's how most/all cases of discrimination should be handled. At the end of the day, that's how this case should be handled. Regardless of why the discrimination is happening, the facility is discriminating against him. They don't want his business.
Which is n
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Re:Interesting... didn't want his business... (Score:4, Insightful)
That may be true. But it doesn't change the fact that I would support their decision to simply not do business with him. It's a free-ish country.
The story makes it sounds like the farmer would also be glad to be rid of them. The problem is JD has contract requirements on the equipment, and JD also has exclusive service agreements with the shop.
I can see both sides.
The farmer sounds like he has good cause to be angry with the dealership. Fouled repairs cost him money. And he has cause to be angry with JD, the requirements aren't necessary and force him to spend money for service he could do himself. He's trapped by the contract.
For the repair shop, it's true sometimes there are mistakes and warranty issues that cost shops money even when they don't like it. No business owner likes doing business with a disgruntled customer. They would have had the option to send him away, except for the fact that the shop also holds exclusive agreements with JD, in exchange for being the only dealer from the consolidation, they're also bound to service all the customers.
Neither wants to do business with each other, and if there were a right to repair, they'd either rarely or never have to do it. It's the mandatory maintenance requirements from JD, and the exclusivity contracts by JD, and to a lesser extent agreements by the shop (all three contracts made for increased profits) that force them into an unhappy partnership.
Re:Interesting... didn't want his business... (Score:4, Interesting)
Since JD is reducing the number of dealerships, there is a point where the remaining dealers, operating with a "greater blessing" from JD, have to service all customers. This why "right to repair" is so important -- it recognizes the dealer's right-to-refuse-service as well as recognizing the customer's "right to repair" his own, purchased outright, equipment. Without "right to repair" the captive customer cannot be denied service.
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One of the benefits of being in a free country is you don't have to support other people who abuse *their* freedoms.
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Re: Interesting... didn't want his business... (Score:2)
ah yes you are âoefree-ish,â and john deere is free to receive about 1500 monopoly licenses per year from the federal governmentâ(TM)s âoegenerousâ patent system, and free to further structure their business to maximize lockin.
and then, i guess, we can't hold John Deere accountable because then one of John Deereâ(TM)s contractors might theoretically lose their freedom to refuse business.
all perfectly reasonable in America! it's a sort of trickle-down theory of freedom, i suppos
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Re:Interesting... didn't want his business... (Score:4, Insightful)
That's a problem with a monopoly (or close to it), you should be forced to provide service at a reasonable price, if anyone can service your items then charge whatever you want serve whoever you want, competition will take care of it.
Re:Interesting... didn't want his business... (Score:4, Interesting)
The thing is, if you're going to let the only dealer in an area fire the customer, you ethically must first fully implement right to repair, not wait until legislation compels it. That is on John Deere.
As for the rest, from the various reports out there, the dealer screwed up previous warranty work and resents the having to make it right. In particular, him taking the matter up to corporate when they balked.
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No. For fuck's sake! It is NOT!
It is about as anticapitalist and protectionist as it can get. This is NOT a world that works, it's a world that eventually succumbs to the same kind of problems that fell the communist world in the East: Corruption and stagnation. And that's what the US is heading today, corruption and stagnation. A system propped up by laws that are self-serving and self-perpetuating, resistant to any kind of reform and reorganization, no matter how direly necessary to get the ball rolling a
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Well, it could well be that the complaints were justified, and in this case yet another can of anticapitalist worms gets opened: A crappy business being protected by the fact that they got territory protection from John Deere. You have to go there because there's no other place you could get your repair done. In a functioning capitalist world, another repair shop would open and if the shop is really as awful as the farmer claims, it would perish, as it should.
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This is the new Deere. (Score:2)
is there no alternative? (Score:1)
Re:is there no alternative? (Score:5, Informative)
GPS is absolutely required for planting and harvesting these days. Go read up on precision agriculture. Remember that if everyone else is doing it, you're at a competitive disadvantage without it and you will lose what little margin you would otherwise have.
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"GPS is absolutely required for planting and harvesting these days."
If you need a fucking satellite to navigate your own property, perhaps you have too much fucking property.
Re:is there no alternative? (Score:4, Interesting)
Except they're not using the GPS for navigation. They are using it for efficiency in terms of putting seeds in an exact location down to the millimeter, in all 3 dimensions. And then using the GPS to optimize efficient routes when harvesting.
As far as getting around ones own property, it's rather obvious how to do that when you're on a tractor.
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I worked at a tractor parts depot. They most certainly ARE used for navigation.
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Soo (Score:2)
Why are farmers buying from these cretins? There are obvious reasons not to, but there are apparently good reasons to get these locked-down machines nonetheless. Can somebody enlighten me?
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What other product are you going to buy that is comprable? That's the issue.
The companies that own the market for these tools/machines have now added all of this special, "lock you in" tech.
Your choice is to farm by oxen, or use John Deere and the like.
--
We thought that we had the answers, it was the questions we had wrong. - Bono
Re:Soo (Score:4, Interesting)
Ok, so basically a market failure because there is no reasonable competition. Got it.
Also explains why this does not seem to be a problem in Europe.
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Also explains why this does not seem to be a problem in Europe.
I suppose you could just purchase a Lamborghini. But seriously, who says it is not a problem in Europe? Remember the John Deere tractors that Russia stole and then where remotely disabled? Ya, that was awesome but it shouldn't really be allowed.
So it looks like the service requirements imposed by John Deere are insufficient to get farmers to purchase from another manufacturer. Or at the very least, there are enough pros to a John Deere that the service requirements are acceptable. At least until the
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But seriously, who says it is not a problem in Europe?
I am not an expert on this issue, hence my question. I simply have not seen any complaints about it here in Europe and I should have seen some by now if it was a real issue. European farmers can be just as vocal as US ones.
So it looks like the service requirements imposed by John Deere are insufficient to get farmers to purchase from another manufacturer. Or at the very least, there are enough pros to a John Deere that the service requirements are acceptable. At least until the tractor breaks - then some customers might start rethinking their purchase.
Makes sense to me.
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European farmers can be just as vocal as US ones.
I am sure they are, but in different venues. The majority of the farming will be in non-English speaking countries so it would be difficult to know for certain. If you went out of your way to research by looking in foreign newspapers then I am sure you would find such accounts. But is it real of just confirmation bias? What we really need is to hear from some French and German farmers but I doubt they are reading this message.
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List competitors for their products on comparable performance / price levels, and then we can start discussing the whys.
Re:Soo (Score:5, Informative)
What are the options?
Deere - locked down, broken by design.
Mahindra - same shit, also reputation for shitty Indian parts.
Massey Ferguson - same shit.
New Holland / CNH - same shit.
Kubota - same shit. (though in this case, I don't blame the Japanese for locking crap down and being tight since the Chinese ripoff companies are constantly trying to steal the tech).
Class (sometimes spelled Claas) Tractors (German) - same shit.
Case IH - same shit.
Sonalika - same shit, and again also reputation for shitty Indian parts.
Fendt (German) - same shit.
SAME (Italian company - but also, same shit.
Deutz-Fahr (German) - same shit.
So... who do you think the farmers can buy from that isn't locked down? Every company with factory production on the market is doing the same shit. And you can't keep older tractors going forever. Eventually they break down beyond viable repair.
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So... who do you think the farmers can buy from that isn't locked down?
Sometimes a question is actually a question. I am also wondering why I have not heard of a similar problem in Europe.
Re: Soo (Score:1)
Because it isnâ(TM)t a problem, only in the US do a very small group of people make a very big deal about it.
Itâ(TM)s like those articles about Apple repair, then when Apple provides the tools and parts do they complain the tools are too big and difficult to use.
In this case, the complainer intentionally self-repaired his device, because he is one of those advocates, then complained the manufacturer doesnâ(TM)t give him free repairs and service to the point the mechanic shop fires him as a cu
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Yeah, the reason is that American farmers are crybabies. It has nothing to do with the EU anti-monopoly regulations.
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Yeah, the reason is that American farmers are crybabies. It has nothing to do with the EU anti-monopoly regulations.
Yeah, these "up to 5% of annual turnover" fines really do nothing!
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Is it any wonder that immigrants are needed for farm work. Here is a guy who wonâ(TM)t plant his crops because it is hot.
Where does it say he "won't" do it? Is it too much to ask to be able to use working equipment you paid for?
Go fuck yourself with a backhoe you ignorant armchair idiot.
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As long as the backhoe isn't a John Deere attachment and it's not locked out due to using non DRM hydraulic fluid, and it needed an entitlement key...
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The farmer probably wouldn't have bought that tractor if it didn't have air-con. You can't just refund what the air-con costs.
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My area is 100 degrees in the shade. I have picked berries and mowed lawns in that heat.
Do you do this in an fully enclosed glass cabin sitting on a running engine ? Sounds like 'no'. You should be able to answer that question.
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Here is a guy who wonâ(TM)t plant his crops because it is hot. My area is 100 degrees in the shade. I have picked berries and mowed lawns in that heat.
I have an idea. How about we stick you in an un-airconditioned popemobile and run you around in the sun for 10 hours in that heat. Then once you're thoroughly cooked to a temperature the FDA would approve as safe for consumption, we can shove your dumbass corpse in the ground and move on to sensible discussion.
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Working an entire day in conditions where it's illegal to leave your dog while you have lunch is not viable
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Sounds like you irrationally hate farmers and/or people who expect their very expensive equipment to work
Re:So many things (Score:4, Interesting)
" Here is a guy who wonâ(TM)t plant his crops because it is hot."
Here is your typical idiot Apple user, who doesn't understand what it's actually like to work in an enclosed glass cubicle that reaches and maintains DEATH FUCKING VALLEY TEMPERATURES for the entire working shift.
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Nature of his problems... (Score:2)
Without knowing the nature of all the issues he's had with his equipment, it's difficult to know what to make of this story.
Were these all warranty repairs?
If so, sure, I can see an argument that the nearest dealer should be the one to do the repairs, whether they like it or not.
Is it out of warranty?
If so, I think the dealer has every right to tell a problem customer to get lost. He still had options...he just didn't like them.
Remember, the dealer has an interest in curating a good relationship with the c
Re:Nature of his problems... (Score:4, Informative)
The fact that he's saying he's just absolutely incapable of farming without AC is an obvious attempt at dramatization. "When it hits 70 degrees it's almost unbearable inside the cab"...maybe open the doors and windows to get some of that 70 degree air inside the cab? He's a 5th generation farmer...you know 3 or 4 of the preceding generations managed just fine without climate control, some without cabs altogether.
There's a lot to be said for being a good customer, when you're in a small community with limited options.
Tractor cabs are enclosed for multiple reasons besides driver comfort. Keeping the electronics protected is one. Protecting the operator from from what is being applied is another. And they don't have roll down windows or doors you can leave open.
Once you have a glass cab, even if the particular task you're doing doesn't required it, then A/C is needed when it's sunny. Having an operator in the cab at this point is unsafe and maybe illegal.
Re:Nature of his problems... (Score:4, Informative)
Bullshit the windows don't open. The fact that you went to "roll down" windows shows your lack of familiarity with the pop out windows most equipment has. And no, I don't mean removing the entire window...I'm talking about the hinge and latch type
My tractor has a glass cab, and it does have a window that hinges open. One. That opens about six inches at the bottom. I can open the doors to get air but that creates other problems. The AC is a necessity, not a luxury, on hot days.
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I think the problem is that it's quite a bit hotter than ambient air in the cabin. The sun in May is just as powerful as it is in July, even if the air hasn't warmed up yet.
But let's assume for the sake of argument it's really not too bad inside the cab. Why can't the farmer repair the AC himself, or take it to the nearest Mr. Fix-it? John Deere says this is because it will reveal proprietary technology, or enable the farmer to defeat emissions control, or endanger the operator. Does that sound reasona
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This guy was calling 70 degrees Fahrenheit, a hot day.
If the sun is shining, the interior of the cab is a lot hotter than outside. Other than the roof, the whole cab is glass.
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The bottom line is that enclosed glass cabs are not usable in moderate sun.
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The problem comes in when the dealer is the only viable choice in the area. Then the incentives flip and customer relationship ceases to matter much.
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It's not close when you need to get a combine there.
Moving a huge tractor 80 miles is what Wilson called a “Herculean task.” He’d have to haul it along highways, take the wheels off so it could fit on a transport, and spend the time ferrying the machine back and forth. It’s not doable, especially not affordable or fast. So he’s stuck with Heritage Tractor a company he claims didn’t want his business.
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While it's sensible to be a "good customer", that doesn't get you far when you have a grievance with a monopoly.
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Is it out of warranty? If so, I think the dealer has every right to tell a problem customer to get lost. He still had options...he just didn't like them.
Did he? I highly doubt that JD turns off all their DRM when the warranty expires. With the software locks in place, all being out of the warranty period means is that the farmer now pays the authorized dealer whatever price the dealer chooses, instead of JD paying a reduced price.
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When you do something, you don't half-ass it.
Re: The System Works (Score:2)
Dude. Epic
I say it's time to send John Deere a 'Dear John.'' (Score:2)
I say it's time to send John Deere a 'Dear John.'''
You wanna be out of business? (Score:2)