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Businesses United Kingdom

UK Four-Day Week Pilot Begins: Employees Get 100% of the Pay For 80% of the Time (independent.co.uk) 185

An anonymous reader quotes a report from the Independent: The biggest ever four-day working week pilot is set to begin in the UK, with over 70 companies and 3,300 workers ready to take part. The trial will result in no loss of pay for employees, based on the principle of the 100:80:100 model. Employees will receive 100 percent of the pay for 80 percent of the time in exchange for a commitment to maintaining 100 percent productivity.

An impressive list of companies are taking part in the trial from a wide range of sectors including banking, care, online retail, IT software training, housing, animation studios, hospitality and many more. The pilot is running for six months and is being organized by 4 Day Week Global in partnership with leading think tank Autonomy, the 4 Day Week UK Campaign and researchers at Cambridge University, Oxford University and Boston College. [...] Researchers will work with each participating organization to measure the impact on productivity in the business and the wellbeing of its workers, as well as the impact on the environment and gender equality. Government-backed four-day week trials are also due to begin later this year in Spain and Scotland.

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UK Four-Day Week Pilot Begins: Employees Get 100% of the Pay For 80% of the Time

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  • so Scotland is not part of the UK now with this?

    • Well, Scotland has some devolved powers and quite many different laws and such, so no wonder that any such thing would be trialed only under one legal framework.

  • by lsllll ( 830002 ) on Monday June 06, 2022 @11:06PM (#62599022)
    We're not working in factory assembly lines. Even workers in assembly lines, take someone who was soldering components on a board, cannot be measured just based on throughput. You have to track failed solder joints many many years past product shipment, something no company would ever do. For programmers, what is the measurement of productivity? Are lines of code one of them? What if the problems differ and one requires more thought and experimentation? I just don't buy that they can "measure" productivity in any meaningful way. If the company revenue falls after this 100:80:100 model, are they going to blame it on the 4 day work week? Or are they going to look at every possible thing that contributed and, if so, then how would they deduce productivity?
    • Medieval peasants (Score:5, Interesting)

      by whoever57 ( 658626 ) on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @12:10AM (#62599108) Journal

      https://allthatsinteresting.co... [allthatsinteresting.com]

      Medieval peasants had more leisure time than most working adults in modern-day western countries.

      • by Immerman ( 2627577 ) on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @01:01AM (#62599178)

        And hunter-gatherers had far more leisure time than that. (And continue to have, for those few cultures that still survive)

        The story of civilization is the story of the common folk working dramatically more hours in exchange for moderate increases in food security, and the creation of a ruling class that skimmed a generally-increasing share of the total wealth.

        • Your statement is pure conjecture with zero evidence. Plus is a lot of leisure time a bad thing? I’d retire tomorrow if my finances were good enough.

        • Lol at "moderate increases". People we now classify as loving "in poverty" have objectively safer, longer, cleaner, healthier, richer in information and entertainment, in almost every respect much better life than aristocracy even in 18th century and every king and tribal chief since the beginning of civilization.

      • So? You can live like that today if you like .. as 20% of the world's population still lives btw. Don't expect electricity, a cell phone, a computer, an automobile, a nice bed, modern medicine (decent life expectancy at birth), and television?

      • If it means wondering where your next bowl of low calorie vegetables is going to come from while sitting in a cold damp hut and hoping no one steals any of your crop or animals if you're rich enough to own any.

      • So do homeless people.

      • by kenh ( 9056 )

        Are you factoring in their shorter lifespan than modern workers?

    • by mkwan ( 2589113 )

      Many (most) jobs are about putting in the hours and being physically present. Nurse. Police officer. Hairdresser. Barista. Farmer. Shop assistant. Truck driver. Garbage collector.
      Are we going to hire 25% more of them?

      • by Immerman ( 2627577 ) on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @01:20AM (#62599202)

        What are you smoking?

        With the exceptions of police officer, and possibly barista at places that aren't busy enough to justify more than one employee, all of those jobs are highly concerned with productivity. Workers don't just sit around taking up space, they have a job to do. The slower they work, the more workers it takes to get the all the work done on time.

        Numerous studies have shown that working more than forty hours per week actually reduces your weekly productivity for virtually all jobs, as burnout gradually reduces your hourly productivity. You just can't stay "on" for such long periods of time on a regular basis - either you adopt a more leisurely pace to ration your energy, or exhaustion does it for you. Far fewer studies have been done on working less than 40 hours, but evidence so far seems to suggest that maximum weekly productivity probably comes when working somewhere around 20-30 hours per week.

        • I think you two are in agreement actually. Those jobs consist of being in the right place and doing whatever needs to be done at that time. You can't serve the coffees you'd serve on Friday on Thursday. You can't drive the distance you would've driven in five days in only four,at least not legally. Etc.

          This is mostly about office workers who are spending most of their time unproductively and would thus easily be able to do the same total amount of work in fewer days. Some exceptions apply obviously.

          • If there was an excess of labor I'd say a national program to encourage 32 hour work weeks with a livable wage. :Less would get done per worker, yes, but that worker wouldn't be so burned out and they may have less sick days and less mistakes. It wouldn't compensate fully, no, but the government could arrange taxes to encourage 30 hours instead of 40 in order to keep the population itself more healthy. That said, there is a labor shortage, so I'm not sure it would work, maybe it would.

            • by Immerman ( 2627577 ) on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @09:13AM (#62599962)

              The point is - many studies have shown that someone regularly working 60 hours a week will actually get less total work done per week than they would if they were only working 40.

              The hourly productivity loss from exhaustion/boredom/lack of leisure time to recover from working such long hours on a regular basis actually outweighs all the extra hours you put in.

              And there's no reason to believe that 40 hours is the sweet spot for getting the maximum work done per week either - several studies suggest that someone working 30 hours will tend to get at least as much total work done per week.

          • >You can't serve the coffees you'd serve on Friday on Thursday.
            Nope - but if you've got five baristas working at a time you can probably reduce that to 4, and they'll be able to work faster to sell the same number of coffees since they'll be less exhausted thanks to the extra leisure time.

        • The problem is that most politicians and even economists think of productivity as the amount produced within a year. You and I agree that it should be measured per unit of time worked, but they don't. So by their logic, any time not working is wasted. They'd rather have you working twice as much if it only increases your output by 10%.

          • You're missing the point though - the total amount produced per year actually increases as the number of hours worked decreases. At least when you go from 50 or 60 hours to 40, and there's reason to believe that trend continues down to at least 35 hours, and possibly as low as 20 (though that may depend on the job)

            Our cultural fixation on equating working more hours with getting more done is actually false

      • by Ormy ( 1430821 )
        Lets take the barista as an example, assuming a coffee bar that is open 7 days a week and employs 7 people to make/serve coffee. Currently each employee works 5 days per week, meaning if the shifts are rotated evenly then 5 people are at work each day. Under a 4-day work week, 4 people would be in work each day. You're asking if they need to hire a extra person to cover the shortfall. The point is there is no shortfall because 4 fully-rested and awake employees can undoubtedly get more work done (coffee
    • There are certain jobs that this will work with and others that it won't. If you need someone to be available 24/7, like at the front desk of a hotel, then 100:80 is impossible. OTOH, if you are an animator and your weekly goal is 7,200 frames of rendered animation, then you could show you can finish it in 80 hours. Other jobs? Bank teller - no. Bank auditor - perhaps. Service industry workers - difficult. Piecemeal workers - perhaps.

      This isn't much different from other industries what have defined w

      • What you're overlooking is that *nobody* works 24/7 - they work shifts so that everyone together provides 24/7 availability. And unless the job amounts to a whole lot of sitting around doing nothing with occasional "interruptions" that require actual work, increased productivity can make up for shorter hours.

        Bank tellers are an excellent example - they're not just napping all day, they have a queue of customers to serve. And higher productivity means they handle more customers per hour, which means the ba

        • by Bert64 ( 520050 )

          It depends how much of the customer service time is actually related to the productivity of the teller rather than other factors which the teller can't control. The few times i've been to the bank recently, a lot of time was wasted because customers reached the counter without being prepared, and then had to spend time searching through their pockets/bags to find their bank cards or account information etc.

          People are inherently inefficient. One of my pet hates is people who approach the ticket gates in a tr

      • by Bert64 ( 520050 )

        Someone sitting at the front desk of a hotel will usually not be working for 100% of the time they are at work. There will be significant periods of time when the receptionist is just sitting there waiting for a query from a guest.
        Reducing working hours is about making more efficient use of the remaining hours, so it's not going to work for a job that is inherently inefficient.

        The flip side is also that employers are greedy. They will see that people can get their workload done in 80% of the time, and then

        • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

          There have been studies done of this. It turns out that employers are well aware that employees aren't as productive as they could be, and many, possibly most, of them are superfluous. They don't care. Why not? Because the number of people you boss around is an all-important metric.

    • I don't know what the right metric is, but I know it ISN'T lines of code. If you could get the same functionality in 10 lines or 1000, which would you choose?
    • by quenda ( 644621 )

      I think it is clear that reducing the work hours of lawyers, politicians, account executives, hairdressers, insurance salesmen, and human resources staff, cannot possibly fail to raise the productivity of society.

      How is it that with all this productivity-raising technology, we now require two incomes in a household for even a basic middle-class lifestyle that was previously achieved by one? It is simple inflation - more money means higher costs for limited resources such as housing. If the husband and wi

      • by Ambassador Kosh ( 18352 ) on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @04:49AM (#62599398)

        It is called the two income trap and there is a fair bit written on it. Basically, with two incomes people could move to areas with better schools for their children and this created more competition for those areas which causes prices to rise until they now used up two incomes instead of one. That same idea applies to basically any other good which has scarcity.

        This same kind of thing also applies to skills. For instance if all parents teach their kids a second language to get into college if you don't do that you kid will be as a disadvantage but if you do it the child is just the same as any other. This requires putting in more and more effort to make sure your kid has all the skills that others do plus additional ones.

        There is really no way to win this kind of situation. If we started to have 3 income households as the most common type then we would still have the same kind of situation we have now.

      • > we now require two incomes in a household for even a basic middle-class lifestyle

        Depends on where you live. For example, in most small-medium cities in the US a family can have a very nice middle class lifestyle on one semi-decent salary. On the other hand if you want to live in Manhattan you can live like a bum even with two incomes.

    • My other half is working in some office related admin position.

      She is officially supposed to work office hours, 5 days a week.

      Our running joke, since work from home started, is that she is working / on call 24/7, simply cos she is flooded with work.

      Funny thing, her employers ask her not to work late or over the weekend, whenever they notice. But she has so much work to do, there is no chance to cope with everything unless she literally spends about 10 -12 hours a day on weekdays and another 5-10 hours total

      • Jesus christ just don't work the extra time. Especially if the managers tell her that as well. That's literally not the job.

        • by Pascoea ( 968200 )
          Yeah, I'd be telling her to find a new job. (Assuming she's competent, and the problem is the workload.) No employer is worth that many extra hours.
    • by skam240 ( 789197 )

      You're making a huge assumption here that they're going to try to judge increased worker productivity based on the individual worker. That would be as ridiculous as you lay out.

      I think it's infinitely more likely that they'll look at overall company performance to determine if this works or not. If a company turns out the same amount of product with a 4 day work week as they do with a 5 then the program is a success. Of course there can be other confounding factors that need to be accounted for even with th

    • We're not working in factory assembly lines. Even workers in assembly lines, take someone who was soldering components on a board, cannot be measured just based on throughput. You have to track failed solder joints many many years past product shipment, something no company would ever do.

      Since there are in fact many companies who are held to incredibly high standards for lot/serial control down to individual component level on boards, there are likely companies who track failures as a teaching/training benefit as well.

      When you're forced to track that level of detail for the customer anyway, might as well create reports that identify problem areas to maximize efficiency and minimize failure rate.

    • by kenh ( 9056 )

      The trial will result in no loss of pay for employees, based on the principle of the 100:80:100 model. Employees will receive 100 percent of the pay for 80 percent of the time in exchange for a commitment to maintaining 100 percent productivity.

      So a worker that used to work 8 hours/day, Monday - Friday will now work, say, 8 hours/day, Monday - Thursday? OK, got it.

      An impressive list of companies are taking part in the trial from a wide range of sectors including banking, care, online retail, IT software training, housing, animation studios, hospitality and many more.

      Wait a minute - let's look at the participating sectors:

      Banking - how can a bank teller/manager or really any branch employee provide 5 days of in-bank availability in 4 days?

      Care - (I take this to mean healthcare, assisted living workers) How can a nurse, doctor, aide, etc provide 5 days of patient care in 4 days? It will require the hospital to hire 25% more support staff to provide th

    • > Are lines of code one of them?

      Hopefully that obsolete metric [folklore.org] can die in a fire.

  • If I had Wednesday off, I'd likely be at least 20% more productive

    It's the generation that grows up expecting it as normal I'm not so sure about.

  • So basically this is a tax. That's why we need to switch to robot workers and UBI as soon as possible. Any factory that users human workers is at risk because of human workers. Humans are not meant to function with each other. Humans always fight each other and fling accusations either fabricated or true. It's only a matter of time before your workers sue you or each other or do something bad.

    The only solution is to tax companies and use that tax to pay UBI. Companies would prefer to pay a tax. Basically it

    • by Joe_Dragon ( 2206452 ) on Monday June 06, 2022 @11:22PM (#62599042)

      lowering full time is part of automation / UBI.

      Yes automation will lead to the need for UBI. But automation will not kill all jobs and can lead to say the work load of 6 people being replaced by 1-2 people.
      Now do want to have 1 person pulling an 50-60 hour week? or say 2 doing an 30?

      also automation unchecked can fail in new and odd ways so you need to keep some people around for repairs / to be there to hit the stop button / etc.

      robot can also harass you with errors and other stuff that people can easily fix.

      • I've used Windows Me (Millenium Edition), I am sure that frustration from computer errors are milder than the harassments and discriminations humans are known for.

      • I want one eager and energetic person who actively wants to work 50-60 hours, not two people who only want to work 30.

        That one person is going to create jobs and improve their community, but they won't be very interested in hiring people who don't want to work more than 30 hours.

        But then I also think that the only thing UBI is a "solution" for is too little inflation and poverty. Things which I'd rather have less of than more.

        • I want one eager and energetic person who actively wants to work 50-60 hours, not two people who only want to work 30.

          Sod that. I only work 35 and that's bad enough. I work to live, not the other way round. If your employee needs to work 60 hours, something has gone badly wrong

        • by Pascoea ( 968200 )

          I want one eager and energetic person who actively wants to work 50-60 hours

          You don't want a human being, you want a robot. Humans are not designed to work 60-hour weeks for extended periods of time.

          but they won't be very interested in hiring people who don't want to work more than 30 hours.

          Nobody WANTS to work 60 hours a week. Yes, there are exceptions to every rule.

          But then I also think that the only thing UBI is a "solution" for is too little inflation and poverty.

          And you are certainly welcome to your opinion.

    • Re:Tax (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Rhys ( 96510 ) on Monday June 06, 2022 @11:25PM (#62599046)

      Is it a tax, or is it sharing some of the productivity gains over the last 4 decades with the workers providing them, as opposed to the CEOs presiding over them?

      I guess it depends how you look at it.

      • A worker is not owed anything more than their agreed payment amount, just as an employer isn't entitled to more than the agreed work from a worker. In other words, if you sell me a painting for one thousand dollars and I in turn sell that for one million dollars, I owe you nothing. Just like if I couldn't sell the painting I can't go crying to you saying you sold me a crappy painting. It's not my fault you sold it to me for the thousand dollars, just like you'd give me nothing if I couldn't sell the painti

      • Is it a tax, or is it sharing some of the productivity gains

        It is neither.

        Obviously, it is not a tax. That makes no sense.

        It is not sharing productivity either, since both the wages and production stay the same (at least in theory).

        • It is not sharing productivity either, since both the wages and production stay the same (at least in theory).

          Sure it is. If a worker is doing 40 hours of work in 32 hours then they are being more efficient. If they are still paid for 40 hours though and only working 32 then they are directly benefitting from the increased productivity. One day off 52 weeks a year certainly has a monetary value one can apply here based on the wages of the given employee.

          Of course this is assuming that most people would actually get just as much work done in 32 hours as they do in 40. That's what makes this study exciting though!

    • by Malc ( 1751 )

      Instead of taxing companies, you could (partially) fund it by abolishing the personal tax exemption many countries have on the first chunk of income and capital gains.

    • by skam240 ( 789197 )

      You must have worked for some shit companies to have such a pessimistic outlook on humans in the work place.

      In a well run work place with happy employees lawsuits arent much to worry over.

  • by oldgraybeard ( 2939809 ) on Monday June 06, 2022 @11:29PM (#62599054)
    I'm open minded, 70 companies with 3300 employees lets see who is still in business and who still has jobs when this is done.
  • Speaking for the US, and mostly for office workers, there are a tranche of folks that believe the average work situation developed in the early 20th century is the pinnacle of efficiency. 40 hour work week, part-time work= no benefits. Overtime for hourly, etc.

    But if the ongoing WFH experiment from Covid is an example I think the 4 day work week will start taking off in about 5-10 years. That the work model formed in the 1930's (?) isn't a great match for 21st century work. Just like WFH, basically peop

  • Would hairdressers take a 20% pay cut, or would the price of a haircut go up 25%? Either way, society is poorer.

  • by taustin ( 171655 ) on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @12:53AM (#62599170) Homepage Journal

    The conversation will be "If you can to 100% of the work in 80% of the time, clearly you can do 125% of the work in 100% of the time, you slacker. Now get you ass to work and earn your paycheck or your replacement will."

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Part of the requirement for joining the scheme is acknowledging that the increased hourly productivity rate is due to better work/life balance.

    • That's going to happen anyway regardless of anything.

    • by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Tuesday June 07, 2022 @06:00AM (#62599518)

      There is a large body of research that already demonstrates that it doesn't work like that and that peak productivity per hour worked occurs on the lower end of the 30h/week. At 40h productivity per hour is already going down.

    • by RobinH ( 124750 )
      Well, the question is, what's the threshold for overtime pay? Right now the rule here (in Ontario, Canada) is that companies must pay overtime after 44 of work per week (for hourly employees). Our company goes above and beyond that by paying overtime starting at 40 hours. If you switch to a 32 hour standard week, but don't pay overtime until you reach 40 or 44 hours, that'll reduce the incentive to put in more than 32, but if you start paying overtime at 32... yeah, lots of people would work their 5th da
  • There have been many trials at individual businesses, some worked some failed. For example a Swedish Hospital tried it and found that they employees loved it, but they were doing 80% of the work they used to, and hospital had to hire more doctors and nurses to treat all the patients who turned up. It was abandoned. French tried putting everyone including doctors and nurses on a fixed 35 hour week, and found the same thing. In many service industries where productivity is hard to measure and people are worki

  • All of these experiments have proven that productivity will increase in a 4-day work week.
    Not just productivity per hour, but total productivity.
    Also, costs will decrease, and employees will be happier.
    No doubt the same will happen here.

    And no doubt they will go back to a 5-day work week after the experiment is over, because that is more goodness than they can handle.
    • Many tests report lost productivity in 4-day work weeks, especially if those 4 days are not extended to 10 hours. Where are you finding "all these experiments"?

      • Some countries have moved on from the more hours = more productivity idea. I work for a large (80-90k staff) UK firm and apart from moving permanently to hybrid working (WfH increased productivity markedly) we are now looking at stuff like workspaces based around the type of work you are doing - concentration work (soundproofed booth), fast and furious team work (stand up with VC), normal VC rooms, hot desks etc. We even have a VR room and games consoles to play and chat over a problem to try and get to a
        • A great deal depends on the nature of the work. A great deal of physical work takes physical time and effort. Work that requires thought and insight also takes time, but can have _some_ efficiency gains from less tired workers. One of the difficulties of the shorter work week is that managers often feel free to keep the same amount of weekly time for progress reports and planning meetings, generating more bureaucracy but interfering with project completion.

    • I could see that over a short period of time. People will be excited to have the extra day off and cut out any fluff time in their daily routines. The problem is long term, that fluff time -- chatting with a co-worker, grabbing a snack, taking a short walk, etc -- is what keeps them relaxed day to day. The 20% productivity will not last long term. There could be an argument that the 32 hour week might boost hourly productivity ~5%, but there would still be a ~15% loss. 40 hour pay for 32 hours won't pa

    • by Viol8 ( 599362 )

      It depends on the job. A truck driver can't drive as many miles in 80% of the time if he always drives at max legal speed anyway no matter how much you wish it. Ditto for construction and other manual jobs. Perhaps for office workers who spend a lot of time idling away the hours on the web (yes, like I'm doing right now) it might be true, not this isn't a general fact.

  • I could get a week's real work done in about 15 minutes. The rest of the time is pointless paperwork and meetings.

  • I've been doing an 80 hour work week for 20 years now and I don't see what's so great about it.

    OH! 80 PERCENT? No kidding . . .
  • The cynical viewpoint: Discover we can get the same productivity with fewer total hours per employee, go back to 5 day and more total hours per employee and slash 20% of the workforce. Or discover employees were slacking 20% of the time.
  • Let's see if this still seems like a good deal in a couple of years. It probably pegs their wages for a while too. So in fact they will be expecting >80% of the productivity for 100% of last year's wages with no increases likely for a year or two because "look we slashed your hours". Odds are that each of the four days gets a little longer too, in the name of "productivity"

    Pretty soon the hourly rate is below what it would have been if adjusted for inflation due to dozens of small "optimizations" from mi

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