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Ukraine's Largest Nuclear Plant is Cut Off Energy Grid (washingtonpost.com) 138

Ukraine's largest nuclear power plant was cut off from the country's electricity grid, setting off a mass power outage in the adjacent area after fires damaged its last functioning transmission line, Ukraine's nuclear power company said Thursday. From a report: The incident renewed fears about safety at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant (ZNPP), which is also the largest atomic energy plant in Europe and is located in an area now occupied by invading Russian forces. Fighting in the vicinity of the plant has led to acute worries of a potential catastrophe and to calls from many world leaders for U.N. nuclear experts to be allowed to visit the site.

Russian and Ukrainian officials traded blame for shelling at the plant, which they said had resulted in the disconnection from the power grid -- the first time it has ever been cut off. Officials, including Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, have warned that such a disconnection itself could lead to an extremely dangerous situation by disrupting the plant's normal operation and potentially making it difficult to cool the reactors. "The actions of the invaders caused a complete disconnection of the ZNPP from the power grid -- for the first time in the history of the plant," Ukraine's nuclear energy company, Energoatom, said in a statement.

UPDATE: Friday the New York Times reported the plant had been reconnected to the grid.
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Ukraine's Largest Nuclear Plant is Cut Off Energy Grid

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  • It's back on. (Score:5, Informative)

    by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Thursday August 25, 2022 @02:11PM (#62822841)

    Slashdot really shouldn't be posting quickly developing stories. The plant is back on the grid.

    • Re:It's back on. (Score:5, Informative)

      by timeOday ( 582209 ) on Thursday August 25, 2022 @02:33PM (#62822975)
      Still it ain't good: [go.com]

      On Thursday, the plant was cut off from the grid for the first time after fires damaged a transmission line, according to Ukraine's nuclear power operator. The damaged line apparently carried outgoing electricity - and thus the region lost power, according to Yevgeny Balitsky, the Russia-installed governor. As a result of the damage, the two reactors still in use went offline, he said, but one was quickly restored, as was electricity to the area.

      The line that was apparently affected is different from the one that carries power to run cooling systems essential for the safe operation of the reactors. A loss of power in those supply lines is a major concern of experts warily watching the fighting.

      Currently only one of the four lines supplying the plant with power from outside is operational, the U.N. atomic agency said. External power is essential not just to cool the two reactors still in operation but also the spent radioactive fuel stored in special facilities onsite.

      "If we lose the last one, we are at the total mercy of emergency power generators," said Najmedin Meshkati, a professor of civil and environmental engineering at the University of Southern California.

      • Hmmm...why would the University of Southern California be at the mercy of emergency power generators if this plant in Ukraine stops supplying grid power?
        • by Khyber ( 864651 )

          Because the fallout from that plant going nuclear could fall over here. Spend more time learning about nuclear risks and maybe you'd understand.

      • I assume you are joking.

        But just in case not, he is a professor AT the University of Southern California. He is NOT discussing the University of Southern California.

      • I'll ask what's probably a dumb question: is external power/onsite generator the only way to power the site if something bad happens? I assume the goal in that case would be to get the rods into a safe state and then safely shut things down. As I recall, the diesel generators were the weak point for Fukushima (correct?), but are there other power sources that could work? I'm thinking large battery units or some other stored energy. I guess I'm just wondering if, after Fukushima, there aren't secondary po

      • Your link and comment make for a far better and more correct story than the one being run here.

  • Not a surprise (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Ed Tice ( 3732157 ) on Thursday August 25, 2022 @02:13PM (#62822853)
    Russia keeps cranking up the inhumane cruelty to see how the world responds. So far that strategy is working. Rape, murder, torture, and genocide have now been normalized. Remember six months ago when world leaders used the phrase "never again." That's now nothing more than a solemn mockery.
    • For the most part I agree with you, but am not sure what our options are when Putin, possibly demented, possibly insane, possibly dying of liver cancer, certainly quite old has nuclear weapons and essentially nothing to lose.

      • by TWX ( 665546 )

        Plus bear in mind that their nuclear forces aren't really part of another branch like they are in the US, so we don't really have any operational data on how they would perform. That unknown coupled with the terrible consequences of being wrong are really all that keeps Russia in its position.

        • Re:Not a surprise (Score:5, Interesting)

          by Ed Tice ( 3732157 ) on Thursday August 25, 2022 @02:29PM (#62822947)
          Russia has enough nuclear-armed ICBMs that if they launched all of them, even a ten percent success rate would yield calamity of proportions never previously experienced. However, not standing up to Russia will yield a genocide of proportions never previously experienced. And the people who actually make these decisions, on top of all that pressure, have to deal with getting constantly second guessed.
          • It only takes one nuclear missile to ruin your day.

          • Even 1% success would be horrific. Even if it launched, and crash / detonated inside Russian territory, it would still be a humanitarian crisis of epic proportions. 1% of 760 land-based missiles is 7, with 36 warheads. That's still 7 major cities pretty much destroyed. Then trigger MAD, and Russia is gone to "in general" (urban areas, military sites).
            • Which is why one would think that somebody in Russia would have enough sense to not invade a neighbor, not engage in genocide, and not store military equipment at a nuclear power plant. But, apparently, such people have all been deemed traitors or something.
        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by edis ( 266347 )

          They are ready to sacrifice the West, while we are not that much after something else, than russia responsible and contemporary. This is their beneficial position (on our expense). Terrorism at its clearest.

      • We are in agreement that there aren't a lot of good options. Sometimes you have to choose the best among pretty bad choices which is certainly where we are now. The worst possible outcome is to sacrifice our values in the name of avoiding a nuclear war and getting the nuclear apocalypse anyway.
        • by edis ( 266347 )

          Maybe not the worst, as there is hardly true way to sacrifice our development. This might be only about proper timing.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by DarkOx ( 621550 )

        There are no good options and there never were.

        Option
        A) Let Russia do what it wants in Ukraine - It sounds cruel and uncaring but the reality without our interference it would probably already be over. Arguable at of the acute suffering by the non-combatant population would have been avoided. A lot of world wide suffering from energy market and food market disruptions would have or would be avoided.

        B) Flood the place with weapons from the US and EU as we have done. Its prolonged the conflict. Its kept Ukra

        • I think the civilian population would still be decimated. Russian soldiers have already been executing even minor officials and also shipping off civilians to "reeducation" camps within Russia. These deaths aren't from bombings or shellings or collateral damage.

        • by vux984 ( 928602 )

          " It sounds cruel and uncaring but the reality without our interference it would probably already be over. A"

          Why would it be over? If 'let them have it' is our response, then why would they ever stop taking more? If the world chooses Option A, then Russia doesn't stop with Ukraine.

          And then on the heels of that China takes Taiwan, Japan, and the Phillipines, Vietnam, maybe even Australia... because if we didn't stop Russia...

        • by linuxguy ( 98493 )
          "Option A) Let Russia do what it wants in Ukraine... "

          Isn't that what we did when Russia invaded Ukraine and took territory in 2014? Look at where that got us.

          You win the Neville Chamberlain award of wisdom, for presenting the option of appeasing expansionist totalitarian states for achieving peace.
          • by DarkOx ( 621550 )

            I am not endorsing option A - I said they were all bad options - duh Russia would not have stopped in Eastern Ukraine, Putin would one weak former soviet frozen state at a time reassemble the USSR.

            All I am saying is that might not be altogether worse for many of people involved. Its still very bad..

            B) has very real problems - and vary obvious parallels with history recent enough most of us should remember. The idea their won't be a long tail of carnage extending from this choice for the next two decades o

            • Option B sucks for the people of Ukraine, it doesn't necessarily suck for NATO. Russia is clearly tied down in Ukraine now, Putin has just made a decree to bolster the size of the Russian army, because so much of it is committed already. That means army reserves are going to be called in, probably to free up regular troops from other areas of Russia, but in the long run it means reserves are going to end up in Ukraine. All of this is going to represent extra strain to the Russian economy, and raise the risk

            • by linuxguy ( 98493 )
              Of all the options, B is less horrible. There is at least the chance that this turns out to be another Afghanistan for Russia. Invasion of Afghanistan was a major factor in the undoing of USSR. American weapons allowed Afghans to make life miserable for the invading military. So far, it is playing out similarly in Ukraine. I would argue that Russia's chances are much bleaker in Ukraine.

              Appeasement of totalitarian states on the other hand has never brought peace. It only strengthens the hand of th
        • When has option A for Appeasement ever proven to be optimal in the long run?

          Let's hear some historical examples. I can't find a single one. Feel free to go all the way back to ancient Mesopotamia if you need to.

          • by higuita ( 129722 )

            nonsense, almost all countries that exists are based in option A, that is why you have so few big countries and most of then are historically "recent" and with big empty spaces (china and india being the specials cases, but mostly because they had centuries of wars and cultural fusion and even now they have regions and population that still resist)
            you get in to a war, win and get some land. taking too much land is a problem to control, drains the main land resources and every year in a long war you make pe

            • Soooooo, no examples. Got it.

              • by higuita ( 129722 )

                sure, lets start with the big ones:
                WW2, Germany controlled most of Europe, spread the war to Russia, over extended their armies, supply lines and ended losing the war.
                not attacking Russia they could have armies to control the north africa and get their oil. Still lot of rebellions in many countries, but they still had enough armies to control that. If that alone would be enough to keep everything stable is unknown, due to the huge size

                WW1, long war, German Empire, Russian Empire, Ottoman Empire and Austria-

        • 'A' wouldn't be an option at all. Russia has been executing Ukrainians for merely not adoring Putin.

        • by Pascoea ( 968200 )
          What about Option D? Putin suffers a "heart attack", allegedly not at the hands of a three-letter-agency.
        • Option D) Push for a ceasefire (as immediately as can be done), and real peace negotiations. Consistently make both negotiating positions public, so the rest of the world can see who to support on what. For instance, Ukraine may want recovery of all territory but offer a more regional federalised structure, some sort of joint sovereignity [wikipedia.org] for Crimea with leasing fees, and removal of intent to join NATO from its constitution. Russia may want to incorporate new territories -- but may have second thoughts on t

          • by higuita ( 129722 )

            Finally someone not blind by nationalism and rhetoric (by both sides!). I could not say it better

            I can only add that EU (and UK, fine they want to be "special") , USA, Russia and China should also all stop being stupid and stop the the military rearm. The more weapons one country have, the more it thinks it is a valid solution. If we have few weapons, we all try harder to maintain peace. All the power display and regional military chess should stop as soon as possible, all that only escalates any smaller l

  • by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Thursday August 25, 2022 @02:15PM (#62822879)
    and let's not forget Putin was initially elected (largely to get crime under control). Once you put a dictator in office sooner or later they loose their minds and do pointless and insane things like randomly invade a country without the resources to take it quickly. Imperialism is done with loans and banks now (ala Belt and Road) not military. But Putin's having an end of life crisis and Ukraine, Russia and the rest of the world have to suffer for it.

    No matter how much you like a guy or how great a man you think he is, do not install him as a dictator. Sooner or later it'll bite you in the ass.
    • by TWX ( 665546 )

      The problem is that Putin as a relic of the Soviet system knew where the pressure points were and had no incentive to not grab for himself.

    • Another swamp creature claiming he'll drain the swamp.
    • by edis ( 266347 ) on Thursday August 25, 2022 @02:54PM (#62823057) Journal

      He was elected after series of staged blasts in communal houses. Where at some point FSB (post-KGB) staff was caught carrying exactly these explosives to the basement of another such house. Smart-ass he was.

    • by Darinbob ( 1142669 ) on Thursday August 25, 2022 @03:14PM (#62823141)

      And Putin catapulted to power after likely being the engineer behind the bombings of apartment buildings. The FSB was even caught red handed planting bombs by local police, but they brushed it off by claiming it was just a drill or training exercise. For all those Russian citizens who seem glad that Putin is better than Yeltsin, it's possible that Yeltsin even knew this was happening at the time.

      • by higuita ( 129722 )

        Also do not forget that Yeltsin had the western support... and with this support he sold most of the Russia assets either to Russia smart-ass (later mafias and oligarchs) or to western companies, greedy for the easy cash grab... while some people got VERY rich, all others started to get harder and harder life, even hunger. So Putin was also a savior, the promise to control the mafias and get everyone a decent life a excellent target... and he managed that (by being the mafia leader and by retaking several h

    • by higuita ( 129722 )

      it is easy to elect a dictator, in fact most western dictators were elected. grab a hot topic and make everyone slowly believe you can solve it. After in power "solve" some (usually minor) issues and do lot of marketing about them... hide all others problems or blame other people... start attacking, restricting or even arresting everyone that discord of you and promote everyone that support you. You will quickly gain a stable group of supporters to keep yourself in power for a long time and if needed, "fix

  • Where was the fire? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) * on Thursday August 25, 2022 @02:17PM (#62822885) Homepage Journal

    Was the fire at the plant or along the travel route of the power line some distance away?

    Russian could have started a controlled shutdown months ago if it wanted to, right?

    All the Wapo article says is "be afraid". Not actionable.

    • by higuita ( 129722 )

      no, shutting a nuclear reactor takes months and even after years stopped, you still have to power it to maintain the temperature in acceptable levels.
      that is one of the big problems of nuclear, it is not press a switch and it is down, it is a big and LONG operation that requires everything running, just as it was producing power. So having it totally stopped or on a lower power mode is the same, with the advantage of the low power mode you can increase the power with much less effort than starting from a "s

      • by higuita ( 129722 )

        forgot to say that the reason why a stop reactor keeps getting hot is because the fuel keeps breaking naturally and that generates heat. In nature, you have very small quantities all over the place, but in the reactor, their concentration is much bigger and ever time a atom decays, it will release energy... a much slower pace, but is enough to be a huge problem is not well controlled

  • Ive never understood this part.

    Its a power plant. Why cant the power from the reactors power the cooling system? Why do they need to be connected to the grid to keep the reactor cooler system online? I can understand Chernobyl since its reactors were down and they just need to keep materials cool. But at a working site?

    On the surface its like saying a gas station's generator is offline because it ran out of diesel fuel. Uh. there's 3,000 gallons in the ground tank the generator power the pumps. Just pump more into the generator tank.

    • by alispguru ( 72689 ) <bob@bane.me@com> on Thursday August 25, 2022 @02:54PM (#62823059) Journal

      Because the plant can drop off line at short notice (reactor SCRAM, coolant loop problem, turbine problem, etc...), can take hours to come back up, and the reactor will still need power to cool the core down from operating temperature. Backup generators are just that, emergency backup for the primary source, the external grid.

      Fukushima failed because the earthquake cut the plant off from the grid, and the plant's backup generators were at ground level and got flooded out by the tsunami. With no power to run the core coolant loop, the core overheated and melted.

      My understanding of this comes from my reading of the IEEE Three Mile Island report, ages ago as part of my dissertation research. Track it down, it's a great read.

      • the reactor will still need power to cool the core down from operating temperature

        What you said, but with the comment that it's not just a matter of removal of the heat that's already in the core - which would just need a big, but finite heat sink. In the fuel there will also be a bunch of short lived fission product unstable atoms. The reactor SCRAM stops the ongoing fission by blocking the neutrons, but the fission products keep on decaying for a long time. Early on after shutdown there will be quite a bit of energy still being produced from radiation. Much of that energy gets converte

      • Minor addition that the Fukushima vents didn't work properly and the operators didn't intervene so that instead of the hydrogen created by the lack of circulating water being vented with a small amount of contamination to the outside air - the reactor buildings exploded. But that is still small potatoes compared to the 20,000+ people killed in the tsunami.
    • "Why cant the power from the reactors power the cooling system? Why do they need to be connected to the grid to keep the reactor cooler system online?"

      Because then you're totally dependent on the reactor power for your cooling system. That's a single point of failure. Having a single point of failure between you and a nuclear meltdown is Not Good.

      • Because then you're totally dependent on the reactor power for your cooling system. That's a single point of failure. Having a single point of failure between you and a nuclear meltdown is Not Good.

        No, thats not what I'm saying. Why cant they feed the cooling system using the power the reactor is generating when the outside power goes down? Why rely on strictly outside power to operate it? its like telling a McDonalds worker he MUST go next door to Wendy's to eat because there is no food in the building for them.

        I'm no rocket surgeon, but I managed to get tertiary power into my corporate data center. A/B power plus generator. If I can figure that out, why cant nuke level electrical engineers figure ou

  • by eth1 ( 94901 ) on Thursday August 25, 2022 @02:34PM (#62822977)

    Doesn't matter who's shelling the plant. Russia started the war, so whatever happens after is their fault. Finger-pointing is pointless...

  • by AmazingRuss ( 555076 ) on Thursday August 25, 2022 @02:36PM (#62822987)
    It's global nuclear terrorism.
  • by stikves ( 127823 ) on Thursday August 25, 2022 @03:02PM (#62823093) Homepage

    This sound like the story is from a cheap thriller, but the Russians are literally playing with fire, nuclear fire.

    Nuclear reactors can just stop delivering power, without a balanced load, ... long story short, they can "melt down". In good times, if you want to shut it down, you need to have knowledgeable personnel to slowly cool down reactors, remove and process fuel rods, and take them away to long term storage sites. And make sure every procedure is followed correctly.

    Remember the last time Russians decided the let go of procedure? Chernobyl caused so many deaths... in 2021, when they dug trenches in irritated soil and cooked their own military personnel with radiation. (Did you think they learned a lesson from the prior Chernobyl incident? Apparently not).

    Today, Russia is trying the "very delicate" option of just using explosives to blow out connections.

    What could possibly go wrong?

  • Trust (Score:4, Interesting)

    by BoRegardless ( 721219 ) on Thursday August 25, 2022 @03:31PM (#62823197)

    Putin and his country, no matter the name, have lost every shred of credibility they had, though they didn't have a lot.

    I just can't imagine anyone in Europe, specifically, wanting to deal with "Russia" other than criminals.

    It will take a half century or more for them to rebuild trust if even then.

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