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US-China Tensions Fuel Outflow of Chinese Scientists From US Universities (wsj.com) 57

Posted by msmash from the tussle-continues dept.
An increasing number of scientists and engineers of Chinese descent are giving up tenured positions at top-tier American universities to leave for China or elsewhere, in a sign of the U.S.'s fading appeal for a group that has been a driver of innovation. From a report: The trend, driven in part by what many of the scholars describe as an increasingly hostile political and racial environment, has caused the Biden administration to work with scholars of Chinese descent to address concerns. More than 1,400 U.S.-trained Chinese scientists dropped their U.S. academic or corporate affiliation for a Chinese one in 2021, a 22% jump from the previous year, according to data gathered by researchers from Princeton University, Harvard University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. The data, to be published by the advocacy group Asian American Scholar Forum on Friday, is based on changes to the addresses listed under authors' names in academic journals.

Chinese scientists trained in the U.S. have returned to China in increasing numbers over the past two decades as the country has grown more affluent and gained stature as a center of scientific research. In the past decade, China has tried to recruit top researchers through talent programs, but historically the majority elected to stay in the U.S. Departures from the U.S. rose sharply starting in 2020, however, when the Covid-19 pandemic coincided with an increase in criminal cases filed against academics under the China Initiative, a Trump-era Justice Department program intended to counter national security threats from China. President Biden's Justice Department said it would stop pursuing new cases under the China Initiative in February, following a series of failed prosecutions and complaints of racial profiling, but some scientists of Chinese descent said they still feel as though suspicions are being directed toward them and fear that will continue as long as relations between the U.S. and China remain tense.
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US-China Tensions Fuel Outflow of Chinese Scientists From US Universities More

US-China Tensions Fuel Outflow of Chinese Scientists From US Universities

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  • CCP propaganda (Score:5, Informative)

    by sfcat ( 872532 ) on Friday September 23, 2022 @12:40PM (#62908271)
    The CCP targets the families of researchers abroad to force them to spy for China. There have been many cases of this reported over the last 5 years. Blaming this on racism is just political cover. It is sad, but researchers from China can't be trusted due to what the CCP is willing to do. You can't fault the researchers for spying as the CCP basically has their whole family captive and is willing to do horrible things to them to get what they want. But you also can't trust someone who is obviously willing to spy on you for a foreign power. This has nothing to do with race and everything to do with nations and power. Trying to blame this on racism is despicable and is just propaganda. Now cue AmiMoJo's (aka the useful idiot) predicable rebuttal which will contain no actual substance whatsoever.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      An increasing number of scientists and engineers of Chinese descent are giving up tenured positions at top-tier American universities to leave for China

      Good. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. Maybe you have forgotten why there are Chinese people in the U.S. in the first place. Go back to China and see how much fun you have living under Chairman Mao.

    • Re:CCP propaganda (Score:5, Interesting)

      by LionKimbro ( 200000 ) on Friday September 23, 2022 @01:07PM (#62908373) Homepage

      I have a close friend who's a professor in a prominent US university.

      First: He said Chinese students are AMAZING students. No surprises there!

      Second, he shared this story: He was talking about Tiananmen square during a class, and he noticed that all of the Chinese students were totally quiet. Wouldn't say a thing. He said one of the Chinese students visited him in office hours, and told him: "No Chinese students are going to say anything when that subject comes up, because there are student spies, and they will report us to the Chinese government, and they will threaten our families, and get us sent back home. So none of us will say anything."

    • Unfortunately, science has always been political as it has depended on politics and the most unpleasant example for us has been the creation of nuclear weapons which now threaten the entire planet. It seems to me that it is necessary to try to keep policy far from science as these two concepts are incompatible. For students, the main task is not to discover something new, but to organize themselves in the adult world, which, unfortunately, can be cruel. So you have to work and learn at the same time and get
    • Unfortunately, science has always been political as it has depended on politics and the most unpleasant example for us has been the creation of nuclear weapons which now threaten the entire planet. It seems to me that it is necessary to try to keep policy far from science as these two concepts are incompatible. For students, the main task is not to discover something new, but to organize themselves in the adult world, which, unfortunately, can be cruel. So you have to work and learn at the same time and get
    • Unfortunately, science has always been political as it has depended on politics and the most unpleasant example for us has been the creation of nuclear weapons which now threaten the entire planet, (Besides I have already procured an essay here about this find more info [papersowl.com]) It seems to me that it is necessary to try to keep policy far from science as these two concepts are incompatible. For students, the main task is not to discover something new, but to organize themselves in the adult world, which, unfortuna

  • I think the return says it all...RETURNING... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by cayenne8 ( 626475 ) on Friday September 23, 2022 @12:49PM (#62908303) Homepage Journal
    If these chinese scientists are returning to China, the home land...well, you can pretty much guarantee they were and ARE working for the communist chinese govt., and were here stealing secrets and tech.

    I'd say we'd be right to question them, especially if they are 1st generation from mainland china coming over here. They are likely recruited and sent directly here via chinese govt programs.

    Sure, it sounds racist, but then again, there's not a lot of black or middle eastern or white guys coming out of mainland China to work here.

    Chinese spies for the communist china govt are guess what....Chinese.

    We have to get it through our thick heads, this is not a big Kumbaya world. Communist China does NOT like the US and is not our friend. They are a competitor and they do not allow crap to get in their way.

    Is their military arguing about pronouns? No, they are drilled to kill the enemy. They do not play around and they plan long, long term.

    Anyway, it's a shame that some innocents may indeed get caught up in this, but they have been spying and stealing tech from the US and the greater west for a LONG time...and its time we try to put a clamp on it.

    Lots of damage done, but better late then never to wake up.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by gtall ( 79522 )

      The same argument were leveled against Japanese and Germans in America during WWII. It turned out most were loyal Americans. Anyhow, what are Chinese scientists going to spy on, American fast food habits?

      • Re:I think the return says it all...RETURNING... (Score:4, Informative)

        by cayenne8 ( 626475 ) on Friday September 23, 2022 @01:10PM (#62908387) Homepage Journal

        The same argument were leveled against Japanese and Germans in America during WWII. It turned out most were loyal Americans. Anyhow, what are Chinese scientists going to spy on, American fast food habits?

        Different situations.

        Those Japanese racial folks in W2 you have in question, were largely born and raised in the US, families here, lots of at least 2nd gen. They were US citizens and loyal, and that's what made this bad.

        If you notice, when that was over, they did NOT make a bee-line back for the Japan home land. Ok, it was a bit wrecked in some areas, but you get the point.

        These chinese scientists are generally NOT US citizens...they are sent here and per the article are "going back home".

        It's not the same situation either.

        The internment that happened to the Japanese and Germans that were US citizens in WW2, was wrong and hopefully we learned the lesson.

        Unfortunately, the error is being used, as you have..to try to apply to THIS situation which is a misapplication of the situation.

        These are enemy spies, plain and simple...and they are retuning home to communist mainland china for the most part, or going off to another western country to spy.

        As another poster mentioned, many Chinese abroad are coerced into this scientific spying, by the mainland holding family hostage.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dstwins ( 167742 )
          Not exactly true..

          Japan doesn't recognize non-born in country Japanese as "full citizens".. at best the are a 1.5 class citizen.. (higher than mixed race and foreign born, but lower than native born).

          Also at the time, while the US itself was highly biased on some people, it still tried to remain above the dangers of facism and totalitarianism.. so the US was a better bet than another country.

          Also this is not students (or at least not exclusively).. these are tenured citizens of Chinese decent that are depar

  • Well (Score:5, Insightful)

    by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Friday September 23, 2022 @12:51PM (#62908317)

    It doesn't exactly help when there's been a non-trivial number of high-profile cases where Chinese academics in the US have been caught stealing information and sending it to China.

    I expect the vast majority of Chinese faculty are (US) law-abiding and ethical; but let's not pretend the US government's concerns over this are just based on racism.

    • There's a difference between nationality & race. Whether or not it's due to the Chinese govt or academics' Chinese nationality, we can be absolutely sure that many Americans are racist as fuck.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dstwins ( 167742 )
      I think you are missing the point..

      The US is rapidly devolving into a totalitarian structure.. couple that with racism (low level as well as overt).. many people look at the US now and say:

      "I would rather be a bigger fish in a smaller pond than a smaller fish in a bigger pond" There are risks in China, but it won't be because of WHO/WHAT they are.. it will be more about what they THINK.. and that they can "control".. (remember, a lot of people feel their "privacy" isn't really a factor for them, so they dis
  • I don't think this has anything to do with US-China tensions. The US is just sounding more & more unlivable on a daily basis. So much so that American workers have started gentrifying Mexico.

    Several people I know have given up and moved to other countries like UK, Canada, Australia, Portugal etc, as it just isn't worth it. Getting a green card often takes decades, meanwhile you get fucked over by employers who know you have an H1B and so have to maintain employment, no matter what. Plus costs for ever

    • The US is just sounding more & more unlivable on a daily basis. So much so that American workers have started gentrifying Mexico.

      No, those senior citizens are moving to MX because it is SO cheap there. You can retire and live VERY well on almost nothing but SS if you get the full amount.

      And I dunno about truly gentrifying....in that US citizens can NOT own land in Mexico. You can only lease it long term at best, so, they're not buying land/property there.

      • A lot of US remote workers have recently moved to the hip parts of Mexico City. I don''t know how many, but it's enough to annoy some of the locals.

        • A lot of US remote workers have recently moved to the hip parts of Mexico City. I don''t know how many, but it's enough to annoy some of the locals.

          Oh, that's right, I did read something about this.

          I got a BIG laugh in that the Mexican locals there were complaining that everyone was speaking English there....

          And people here get labeled 'racist' when they complain about the same language problems here...geez.

          But anyway, I dunno that those Americans moving to MX to work is because it is "so bad" here, jus

          • Oh it's worse than that. Even legal immigrants to Mexico don't even get basic human rights, like for example they can't take part in protests, and the law forces employers to discriminate based on national origin. Also, people that have no European ancestry there generally face discrimination much like blacks did before the 60s. It's funny when Mexico dogs the US about its treatment of illegal immigrants, and then Democrats cheer them on.

          • Cost of living in Los Angeles, California (United States) is 140% more expensive than in Mexico City (Mexico): https://www.expatistan.com/cos... [expatistan.com]? But this calculation doesn't include healthcare, which will be way more in the USA.

  • Just because America built a great education system doesn't mean it has to stay great. Particularly considering how hard some folks are working to destroy the public education system that should be feeding American students into higher levels... Anecdote to follow, but back to the critical mass question.

    Does China have enough researchers to sustain their own technological progress? Can China compete and even win without foreign ideas? Have they already achieved critical mass? I'm pretty sure that some of th

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by sfcat ( 872532 )

      Particularly considering how hard some folks are working to destroy the public education system

      And most of them work in the education system itself. The problems with the US education system aren't due to external politics (amazingly). It is internal to the education system itself and has to do with the amount of political radicalism in the system itself. This is happening in different ways at both the secondary and university system levels. Currently the US university system actively discriminates against US citizens applying for spots in graduate schools. Foreign students with less credentials

  • If they feel like they are being targeted and leave for China vs any other western nation then obvious they should be targeted. To choose to live under Communist rule.... You have to suppose that it's for a large paycheck too... precisely the type that would sell secrets be they national or trade secrets.

  • Tenured positions (Score:4, Interesting)

    by butlerm ( 3112 ) on Friday September 23, 2022 @01:55PM (#62908559)

    I am not sure what the point is of granting tenure to someone who does not have lawful permanent residence in the United States is. If you do have tenure, lawful permanent residence, and follow the law why would you leave short of undue persecution?

  • Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

  • Being told to come back (Score:3)

    by zkiwi34 ( 974563 ) on Friday September 23, 2022 @03:25PM (#62908881)
    That seems more likely. The scary reason for this is that China might be preparing for war.

  • President Biden's Justice Department said it would stop pursuing new cases under the China Initiative in February, following a series of failed prosecutions and complaints of racial profiling, but some scientists of Chinese descent said they still feel as though suspicions are being directed toward them and fear that will continue as long as relations between the U.S. and China remain tense.

    It also appears to me that when academics are accused of crimes that aren't against the institutional policies, the institution circles wagons to protect their fellow academic. They don't care about loyalty to the USA, their chief loyalty is to their own social class, and tenured academics largely think of themselves as a modern aristocratic class. Hence the difficulty of prosecuting Chinese academics. It's not so much that they're Chinese, but that they're a member of the faculty.

    It's kind of like in old E

  • Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

  • My parents host highschool transfer students. More than half that show up are rich kids who's parents are buying them acceptance to Ivy League. The one student that didn't want her (Harvard guest lecture while her grandmother raised her) parents involved sat their and complained endlessly about how much the transfer students around her cheated to ace standardized tests and how she was at a disadvantage for refusing to cheat.

    These professors, and students, aren't necessarily the most productive or qualifi

  • FTFY (Score:3)

    by theshowmecanuck ( 703852 ) on Friday September 23, 2022 @05:40PM (#62909253) Journal

    in a sign of the U.S.'s fading appeal for a group that has been a driver of innovation

    in a sign of the U.S.'s fading appeal for a group that has been a driver of defence, academic, and industrial espionage.

  • You sure about that? Let's see if China starts innovating for the first time in centuries. I doubt it.
  • Many of these Chinese scientists are spies for the Chinese government, so maybe we will be able to keep more of our intellectual property in the USA.
  • Unfortunately, science has always been political as it has depended on politics and the most unpleasant example for us has been the creation of nuclear weapons which now threaten the entire planet. It seems to me that it is necessary to try to keep policy far from science as these two concepts are incompatible. For students, the main task is not to discover something new, but to organize themselves in the adult world, which, unfortunately, can be cruel. So you have to work and learn at the same time and get

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