Putin Grants Russian Citizenship To Whistleblower Snowden (reuters.com) 202
New submitter nunya_bizns writes: President Vladimir Putin on Monday granted Russian citizenship to former U.S. intelligence contractor Edward Snowden, nine years after he exposed the scale of secret surveillance operations by the National Security Agency (NSA). Snowden, 39, fled the United States and was given asylum in Russia after leaking secret files in 2013 that revealed vast domestic and international surveillance operations carried out by the NSA, where he worked. U.S. authorities have for years wanted him returned to the United States to face a criminal trial on espionage charges.
And then ... (Score:5, Funny)
Next step: Mandatory military service as a citizen.
Re:And then ... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:And then ... (Score:4, Insightful)
> Send him to Ukraine. God, that would be priceless.
Yes, that'll learn him good. No one whistleblows on the US government for spying on their own citizens and gets away with it.
On slashdot we'll take a pro-military industrial complex / fascist big brother government stance before we accept anything Russia does.
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Fascism a third way, both left and right its enemy (Score:3)
Fascism is primarily defined by the union of corporate power and the state...
No. Fascism is a system where all elements of society are subservient to the state. Both Corporate and Labor for example, different interest groups split into different state controlled syndicates. Fascism is not a thing of the left nor right, it views both as enemies, it considers itself an alternative to both, a third way.
Which is why there is no conflict with some fascists being right wing and some being left wing. Fascism has opportunistically embraced ideas from both sides to attain or retain power.
Re: Fascism a third way, both left and right its e (Score:3)
IMO it's pretty hard to tell the difference between what communism ends up being (i.e. stalinism) and fascism. Adherents to either one will tell you how they're way different, but are they really? The main difference I see is that one hides the fact that they want to rule every aspect of your life, where the other does not. They both are hardcore collectivist, they both hate capitalism, they both hate democracy, and they both demand absolute adoration of the dictator.
Re:And then ... (Score:5, Insightful)
> Send him to Ukraine. God, that would be priceless.
Yes, that'll learn him good. No one whistleblows on the US government for spying on their own citizens and gets away with it.
On slashdot we'll take a pro-military industrial complex / fascist big brother government stance before we accept anything Russia does.
It's a great demonstration of how shitty and two-faced people are. Snowden was a hero here, and now they'll eagerly throw him to the wolves because it's Russia offering the citizenship. Instead of demanding that Joe Biden give him amnesty, they're essentially going "we hope he dies in Ukraine". It's like something out of the Communist Party USA's handbook right after Molotov-Ribbentropp. "X is bad! Wait, no X is GOOD, Y is bad!".
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He's said he wouldn't even need amnesty to return to the US, just a fair and public trial.
Hard to see how that would work, given that much of the material is still classified even if it is freely available. A jury of his peers might be possible though.
Re:Not a hero (Score:5, Informative)
Irrelevant. The above demonstrates ISIS/ISIL and al-Qaeda (minus bin laden) studied information he released. Hence aid to enemy.
It's extremely relevant. The use of encryption and couriers were common practice in these groups to avoid western intelligence long before anyone ever heard of Snowden.
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He didn't actually blow a whistle on anything though that hadn't already been widely reported by the WaPo and other outlets.
We got a lot more details about how the work was done... and we got a lot of details that have absolute nothing to do with mass surveillance like the details on bugs placed in keyboards that could bridge airgapped devices using a targeted radar antenna. By definition requiring a van outside of every keyboard tapped with an antenna pointed exactly at the keyboard has nothing to do wit
Mandatory military service (Score:4, Interesting)
Given that they're drafting 65 year olds with diabetes, heart conditions, and more, yeah, this was my first thought.
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What's really ironic is that Snowden served in the US Army. He'll probably have superior training compared to the conscripted.
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Re: Mandatory military service (Score:2)
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He can report directly on what's going on.
If he didn't like surveillance state with no human rights, Russia is a pretty sad choice of places to relocate to. Only thing worse might have been China?
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If he didn't like surveillance state with no human rights, Russia is a pretty sad choice of places to relocate to. Only thing worse might have been China?
Russia must have made him a higher offer.
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Russia is a pretty sad choice of places to relocate to. Only thing worse might have been China?
He first tried to stay in Hong Kong, but Hong Kong was willing to extradite him to the US, so he escaped to Russia instead.
What's truly sad is nobody in the "free" world was willing to accept him. At least Russia and China are honest about their oppression.
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What's truly sad is nobody in the "free" world was willing to accept him.
Equador was willing to accept him. Doesn't do Snowden any good if the US can compel any international flight to land in a region willing to extradite him.
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> Russia is a pretty sad choice of places to relocate to.
It wasn't like Snowden had better options at the time.
Re:And then ... (Score:4, Informative)
If he didn't like surveillance state with no human rights, Russia is a pretty sad choice of places to relocate to
You make it sound like he chose to relocate there. He didn't. He was heading to Latin America from Hong Kong when US authorities cancelled his passport, which stranded him in Russia. He has been unable to leave since, because he doesn't have a valid passport.
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He can apparently get a valid Russian one now.
Re:And then ... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is highly unlikely. I know it's a great story that often gets told that the US is the worst dictatorship in the world with the worst human rights records in modern times, but it's just not true. First, everyone knows about Snowden. He won't "disappear" without people knowing, so the US can't do this without bad and it would be a major political blowback. Second, his crimes were less serious than that of Assange, since Snowden curated what he found and released it carefully without leaking names of agents in the field. Third, Manning is out of prison now. Fourth, a US appeals court ruled that the program Snowden exposed was illegal.
Finally, hasn't he suffered enough having to live in Putinstan?
Re:And then ... (Score:4, Insightful)
re: Epstein (Score:4, Insightful)
To be fair, I'm not at all convinced Epstein's death in prison didn't have more to do with guards there who had no sympathy for him than some government plot to off him?
Can't really see how it'd be likely for prison guards to have the same feelings about Snowden, if he was in a similar situation?
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than some government plot to off him?
Not gov't plot, "interested parties", such as the alleged (wealthy, connected) clientele list that Epstein kept.
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The alternative to 'he was murdered' is actually 'the guards gave him what he'd need and told him they'd check on him in eight hours'.
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It's not a dicatatorship but there are a lot of criminals in the melting pot and there is an industry based around it.
https://www.google.com/search?q=prison+populations+by+country/ [google.com] Google: Prison Polulation by Country
United States 2,068,800.
China 1,690,000.
Brazil 811,707.
India 478,600.
Russia 471,490.
Thailand 309,282.
Turkey 291,198.
Indonesia 266,259.
Re:And then ... (Score:4, Insightful)
I wonder why we jail so many people in the US.
I guess we'll never know. [theguardian.com]
Re: And then ... (Score:2)
Looking back, right about the time snowden went off the rails. A effort to close back channels in the us government to russia was publically anounced, weeks apart. Might well be coincidence but,....
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Second, his crimes were less serious than that of Assange
Wait, what? IIRC, the only actual crime that Assange is alleged to have committed is offering to provide support for Manning's exfiltration of data. I happen to think that what Snowden did was a necessary act and Americans owe him their gratitude, but what he did was certainly a crime, and a far more serious one than that of Assange.
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Second, his crimes were less serious than that of Assange, since Snowden curated what he found and released it carefully without leaking names of agents in the field.
If you honestly think Assange was the one who released unredacted docs, you probably need to look more into it.
It's interesting that the people who did though got off scott free though, but painted him an easy target.
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Even taken at face value your comment is dumb. Russia is actively torturing and killing Ukrainians and bombing civilian shelters and dams and power plants. That is not some random soldiers exceeding their rules of engagement but not facing "hard" consequences nor misuse of secretly obtained information. And now Russia will be forcing their own citizens at gunpoint to murder Ukrainians in order to take their land.
This "but he'll be tortured argument" has always been a red herring. The US really does ha
Military prison isn't for civilians (Score:4, Informative)
Um....
Odds are he'd have gotten a 20-40 year sentence in a standard federal prison. With much better survival odds and life expectancy than those in the Russian military have at the moment.
Solitary in a black site wouldn't be used because such is unreasonably expensive compared to just tossing him into prison, and creates too much of a ruckus otherwise.
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Not if he took a lawful path. Like going to members of the House of Representatives or the Senate and saying US intelligence is illegally spying on US citizens. Members of Congress with oversight and security clearances could be brought in to hear the details. That's how whistleblowing actually works.
Like they (Wyden et el) didn't already know.
I'm sure many suspected. However a whistleblower can be evidence. Plus after reporting to Congress then there is also a story making it to the press that an NSA whistleblower has revealed to Congress illegal NSA espionage on US citizens. Congress now knows. The public now knows. No documents were revealed.
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Came here to say or find this. Was not disappointed.
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ok, breaking news says he's exempt from military draft. But it would have been ironic if he was deemed to mandatory service and assigned as an intelligence analyst for the GRU. Would the Russian army trust him?
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Cue idiot comments.. (Score:5, Informative)
...ignoring that he is in Russia because the U.S. Stranded him there when they revoked his passport while he was traveling through Russia to get elsewhere.
Re:Cue idiot comments.. (Score:5, Insightful)
No. He did not.
There are laws in place specifically to protect people who did what he did as a whistleblower.
The problem is that those laws are ignored to protect the apparatus of the state, despite the illegality.
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Seems to me he might need to come to court to prove those whistleblower claims. If you're going to shoot someone in self defense, you obviously need to be prepared to defend that action in court. That's called the rule of law.
I think what Snowden did in disclosure was the Right Thing. I initially thought he went the high-publicity route to help guarantee his own safety. Once it's big news with his name and face associated with it, he can't just be disappeared. He has some negotiating power with the c
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Re:Cue idiot comments.. (Score:4, Insightful)
I might be inclined to agree except FISA courts exist and Obama never shut down Guantanamo Bay like he said he would.
Re:Cue idiot comments.. (Score:5, Insightful)
The trial would not be fair. He is charged with Espionage, and there is no public-interest or whistleblower protection under the espionage act. [freedom.press]
The act wasn't even intended for this purpose, it was intended to prosecute foreign spies. But it doesn't matter. The government has this legal device which will cleanly remove the most relevant defense that Snowden has, guaranteeing that the trial won't be fair before it even starts.
The golden rule: do not challenge your superiors. It doesn't matter if you are right, breaking this rule will get you punished, severly.
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And who cares about Manning, look at Assange. He's a foreign citizen who by definition can't commit treason, yet he's being legally harrassed by an US-allied country precisely because they're a good american lapdog.
Re:Cue idiot comments.. (Score:4, Informative)
I'm sorry, but please for the group show us one Federal US law that says it's okay to distribute classified materials (secret and above) to the media as a form of "whistleblowing".
Note the OIG's language on protected disclosures in the Whistleblower's Protection Act:
The law does not specify to whom a disclosure must be made to constitute the disclosure protected. However, classified disclosures must be handled in accordance with the law.
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I'm sorry, but please for the group show us why the released documents needed to be classified in the first place under US Law.
Re:Cue idiot comments.. (Score:5, Insightful)
...and since the surveillance was unwarranted and acknowledged to be illegal, a case could be made that the classification was itself obstruction of justice.
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... There are laws in place specifically to protect people who did what he did ...
I'm afraid this doesn't take into account the nuances of US law. In reality, whistleblower protections do not apply to the things Snowden did, because instead of responsible disclosure to the appropriate authorities, he chose to steal US secrets and deliver them into the hands of US political enemies... and then into the hands of the media. He knew full well that the path he chose broke multiple US laws; that's why he fled the country.
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There are laws in place specifically to protect people who did what he did as a whistleblower.
He didn't fall under whistleblower protection laws at the time, since he was merely a contractor for a non-gov't business providing services to DHS level agencies. Also, part of DHS level whistle blower protection is that you cannot reveal any classified information to the public, or you're still subject to state secrets prosecution.
And its pretty much considered legal double-speak at this point. Whistle blower laws at the DHS level just means you're allow to complain outside of your supervisor chain, but
Re: Cue idiot comments.. (Score:2)
How can you say that when he fled before any trial could be had? Bullshit.
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Re:Cue idiot comments.. (Score:4, Insightful)
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If he still has any more information that could damage the US government, they would pull an Epstein on him before he could talk to anyone.
And if he sold out to Russia, why did it take so long for Russia to give him citizenship? It wouldn't be hard for them to give him a new identity the moment he arrived there.
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He tried to (Score:4, Informative)
He tried to. He's fully willing to go to prison. All he wants is a fair trial (i.e. not a secret military trial). [cnn.com]
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So, he wanted a trail tilted in his favor.
Ridiculous. The federal gov't and Snowden should have agreed a reasonable plea arrangement. Snowden pleads guilty to a few nebbish crimes, and spends a few years in prison, and in exchange, the DOJ doesn't prosecute Snowden for state security crimes. I do suspect Snowden wanted to take an unrealistic approach, where he would be able to publicly testify in court. That's not what a plea bargain is about.
Re:Cue idiot comments.. (Score:5, Informative)
He could have given himself up and faced up to it.
Yeah? You really think anything would have happened but 10+ years in federal lockup? The public had a right to know about the government's massive, clandestine surveillance operation on its own citizenry.
Re:Cue idiot comments.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah? You really think anything would have happened but 10+ years in federal lockup? The public had a right to know about the government's massive, clandestine surveillance operation on its own citizenry.
I agree with you in principle, but don't you find it problematic if we say that any one individual can decide which part of the classified information should not be classified because it violates the laws of the land according to their interpretation? Everyone has different interpretations, the system in place is precisely set up to make that determination.
And yes, the system can fail us, and as far as US government spying on American citizens, I think it has. However, I think that if you decide you know better than the system, you have to be brave enough to face the consequences, and face that 10+ year in federal lockup as part of your civil disobedience. If it's not worth that, it's not worth sharing.
Re:Cue idiot comments.. (Score:4, Insightful)
you have to be brave enough to face the consequences, and face that 10+ year in federal lockup
That's his choice to make. He sacrificed his career, family, country, etc, etc, to make public the surveillance. There's no requirement that he stand around and wait to be thrown in the gulag.
Kiss of death (Score:5, Funny)
Kiss of death for Snowden. Now he is really screwed.
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+1, it's a really poisonous gift...
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Could you please loosen the foil hat a bit?
I can't believe he would agree to this (Score:3)
Something is wrong about this and I wouldn't be surprised to find out later that it was involuntary.
Snowden was always planning to return to the U.S.
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Something is wrong about this and I wouldn't be surprised to find out later that it was involuntary.
Snowden was always planning to return to the U.S.
Snowden is a daddy now. Would not expect him to rock the boat by doing anything too principled for quite a while.
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He'd better hurry up and produce a couple more kids - otherwise he'll find himself holding a rusty rifle in eastern Ukraine.
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Snowden would only return to the US after a pardon. That isn't going to happen. So I hope he is happy in his new home.
Re:I can't believe he would agree to this (Score:4, Interesting)
Snowden would only return to the US after a pardon.
I agree that a pardon is not going to happen but that is a misrepresentation of Snowden's longstanding position.
What he has stipulated is that he would return to the U.S. to face indictment/charges only if he was guaranteed a fair trial. At the time of his flight it was a very stark world, where the government was eagerly putting people in jail with no defense allowed because of "state secrets" which they would declare without restraint, and the courts were going along with it. Snowden's very legitimate concern was that all exculpatory evidence against him would be suppressed and denied due to national security concerns.
Add to that the political climate, where major candidates of both parties were slavering to deliver his head on a platter as proof that they were "strong on defense." His demand for a fair trial was and is no more likely than a pardon would be.
Personally I think he should have come back during the Obama years. Obama would not have helped him and neither would have Clinton, but the extreme visibility of his case and the public support he has would very likely have restrained enough government abuses that he could have won acquittal under the whistleblower laws.
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The culture of the US has gone in such a way that it is inhospitable to the ideas of freedom he espouses, instead embracing a form of religious zealotry. It's really quite scary, lookin in from the outside. It's going to be that way for the rest of his life.
Russia is likely one of the better places for him to raise his family, now.
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Something is wrong about this and I wouldn't be surprised to find out later that it was involuntary.
Snowden was always planning to return to the U.S.
It was voluntary. He (and his wife too) applied for citizenship in late 2020. He spoke openly about doing so [theguardian.com] and his reasons why.
Snowden is on a very short list (Score:5, Funny)
The list is, "People who are safer in Russia than in the US".
Re: Snowden is on a very short list (Score:2)
Kind of ironic when many Russian men his age would line up for a chance to be in an American prison for the next few years as opposed to a Russian one, or you know, Ukraine.
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Pretty sure all the Jan 6 "insurrectionists" would be safer in Russia than in Gitmo, where they've been placed without charges in many cases.
Do you have any citation that they've been placed there? Your article is a hot mess, but even it only identifies that they're being held in a jail in Washington DC.
Basically: The Jan 6 people claim they're being held differently than regular suspects, being treated worse, in a DC jail. I'm not convinced, because as far as I know, beatings by jail guards are sadly too common anyways. The article then segues into a different topic, the 39 prisoners in GITMO who still haven't been released SOMEWHERE. This
100% Confident - stop the victimhood fetish (Score:2)
Are you sure about that?
There are a lot of Americans who are on numerous lists maintained by the IRS, FBI and ATF who have done nothing wrong other than be politically aligned against the regime.
Pretty sure all the Jan 6 "insurrectionists" would be safer in Russia than in Gitmo, where they've been placed without charges in many cases.
Yes, I will wager money every person you've mentioned is safer in the USA than Russia. The USA has a history of convenient suspicious deaths, but there are a few per decade. In Russia, there are a few per month. Stop the conservative vicimization fetish. If a January 6 style insurrection had happened in the Russian capitol, the military would have opened fire and killed everyone in sight until they were confident people were fleeing. Putin has no problem murdering anyone who opposes him or even just an
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If those January 6 a-holes tried that kind of crap in Russia, they'd already be in the Guinness Book of World Records as participants in the largest "no net roof diving event" in history.
Great, now he can get a job with the FSB (Score:2, Flamebait)
1 in, 200,000 out. (Score:3)
Re: 1 in, 200,000 out. (Score:2)
I bet that number is worse even than it appears in terms of brain drain.
good summary of things exposed (Score:2)
https://www.businessinsider.co... [businessinsider.com]
Most people vs. Snowden (Score:5, Insightful)
For most people, the US would be better than Russia. This guy is an exception that proves the rule. What the USA did was shitty, and he blew the lid off it. He can't come back here. What Russia does is shitty. He can't blow the lid off it, because he'll end up worse off. He's not getting conscripted to Ukraine. He's got propaganda value. He's working the system, and to anybody who isn't blindly tied up to ideology on either side, it's simply illustrative of the fact that all the world's leaders are shit. It's just that depending on who you are, one pile of shit may look better or worse than another.
Some of it is perspective. You've got Black people here in the USA that are done with the country and are returning to Africa. You've got Africans that come here because it's still the land of opportunity.
Either you could say that every country has it's charms, or they all have their problems. Objectively and on average for people, the USA is far preferable now. To reiterate though, for a few people in odd circumstances the tables get turned.
Everybody is full of shit in their own special way.
Bit drastic jsut to draft one man (Score:2)
Rubber-stamped compliance (Score:3)
Russia probably has a law that says only citizens can get their equivalent of "top-secret" clearance. Putin wants Snowdon to do a job that requires it (probably intelligence-related). Make him a citizen, problem solved with no need to bend Russian laws.
Putin *could* break those laws with impunity, but he's smart enough to not pointlessly squander political capital on something he can make officially legal via rubber stamp anyway. Plus, this draws Snowden into Putin's grip as a permanent asset way past any point of no return, by making him a demonstrable participant in future war crimes... and probably a fairly high-level participant, at that.
Putin thumbing his nose at US? (Score:5, Interesting)
The timing of this feels to me like Putin is doing it solely to spite the US government, based upon all of the goings-on with Ukraine. He figures that at this point, he's never going to be able to rekindle anything even remotely resembling a positive relationship with the US and he's royally pissed that Biden is openly threatening to call his "It's not a bluff!" bluff... so he's just doing whatever he can to annoy the US before his own people depose him... because that's really all he can do.
Frankly, it's petty, and it's pointless. Nothing more than a child's temper tantrum.
let's recall (Score:3)
Glen Greenwald reminds us:
https://twitter.com/ggreenwald... [twitter.com]
Good news/Bad news (Score:2)
Comrade. Your citizenship has been approved! The bus to the induction center will arrive shortly.
Re: Slashdot is in a quandry (Score:5, Insightful)
What quandary? Snowdon is a hero, but he embarrassed TPTB. So he had to flee, and Russia is where he got stuck. Sucks, but still better than being tortured and possibly "suicided" in the US. Look at how Manning was treated - Snowdon would have faced worse.
Meanwhile, Putin is scraping the bottom of the barrel, in his attempts to fight against Western sanctions. Snowdon is pretty irrelevant to the Ukraine conflict, but what else does he have left?
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What quandary? Snowdon is a hero, but he embarrassed TPTB. So he had to flee, and Russia is where he got stuck. Sucks, but still better than being tortured and possibly "suicided" in the US. Look at how Manning was treated - Snowdon would have faced worse.
Meanwhile, Putin is scraping the bottom of the barrel, in his attempts to fight against Western sanctions. Snowdon is pretty irrelevant to the Ukraine conflict, but what else does he have left?
I'd rather be a prisoner in the US than a political chess piece in Russia.
You think Snowden enjoys all the various intelligence and political operatives figuring out how to best manipulate him to their own ends? Figuring out ways to get leverage on him?
You think Snowden's life expectancy is really better in Russia? All he has to do is become too much a liability to the wrong party and he's done for.
Whatever you think of his decision to leak he would have been a lot better off turning himself into US authori
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I'd rather be a prisoner in the US than a political chess piece in Russia.
You'd change your tune if you spent the rest of your life rotting in Supermax or Guantanamo, or "suicided" in Rikers.
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AFAIK the kids and wife are not suspected of having broken any laws. You're mistaken if you think there's a law against being married to him.
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He's wrong objectively, sure, but in the sense that a lot of people advocate for the kind of shithattery he proposes and believe that is good, it has some correctness to it.
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It's certainly within the realm of possibility that Putin's eventual successor may undo the hostility towards the West and one way to show things are different would be to hand over Snowden to US authorities.
It's also within the "realm of possibility" Kim Jong-un's successor will turn North Korea into a democratic utopia of freedom and human rights.
What the US really should have done is threatened his wife with charges for "aiding the enemy" over her relationship with Snowden.
This is rather disgusting something we would expect from Putler, MBS or Rocket man not the US.
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the authoritarian dictatorship he was trapped in by Obama? That one?
I mean his choice was stay or return to America to be tortured. Russia is much worse on average, but to the individual that doesn't really matter.