California Passes Law Banning Single-Use Plastic Grocery Bags by 2025 (marinij.com) 201
You know how grocery stores have rolls of tear-off plastic bags in their produce sections for holding vegetables and fruit?
Last week California's governor signed a law that will force supermarkets to discontinue them before 2025, reports the Bay Area Newsgroup, replacing them with either recycled paper bags or bags made of compostable plastic: "This kind of plastic film is not recyclable...." said Nick Lapis, director of advocacy for Californians Against Waste, an environmental group that supported the bill. "It flies around landfills and flies out of trucks. It gets stuck on gears at recycling facilities. And it contaminates compost. It's a problematic product we want to get rid of...."
"We're not banning the bags," Lapis said. "We are just requiring a more-sustainable type of bags. You'll still have a place to put your fruits and vegetables that won't leak."
The article notes that Trader Joe's is already using compostable produce bags, and Eben Schwartz, marine debris manager for the California Coastal Commission suggests that consumers can also just try opting for paper bags. "It's significantly more recyclable. And it will break down if it finds its way into the marine environment."
But he also offered one more piece of advice: "Decide whether you really need your bananas in a bag. You probably don't."
Last week California's governor signed a law that will force supermarkets to discontinue them before 2025, reports the Bay Area Newsgroup, replacing them with either recycled paper bags or bags made of compostable plastic: "This kind of plastic film is not recyclable...." said Nick Lapis, director of advocacy for Californians Against Waste, an environmental group that supported the bill. "It flies around landfills and flies out of trucks. It gets stuck on gears at recycling facilities. And it contaminates compost. It's a problematic product we want to get rid of...."
"We're not banning the bags," Lapis said. "We are just requiring a more-sustainable type of bags. You'll still have a place to put your fruits and vegetables that won't leak."
The article notes that Trader Joe's is already using compostable produce bags, and Eben Schwartz, marine debris manager for the California Coastal Commission suggests that consumers can also just try opting for paper bags. "It's significantly more recyclable. And it will break down if it finds its way into the marine environment."
But he also offered one more piece of advice: "Decide whether you really need your bananas in a bag. You probably don't."
Why is this stuff that matters? (Score:5, Informative)
Most of the rest of the world banned them years ago. If this is really a headline perhaps it should be “California might catch up with the rest of the world in a couple of years”. I’m surprised anywhere is still using them - let alone somewhere supposedly concerned about the environment like California.
Re: Why is this stuff that matters? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Seriously, get some fluoride in your daily diet and get your ass to a dentist.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Why is this stuff that matters?
You don't think minimizing plastic waste is something that matters?
Most of the rest of the world banned them years ago.
OK... that didn't include the US.
If this is really a headline perhaps it should be “California might catch up with the rest of the world in a couple of years”.
What you a failing to realize is that this particular publication and Slashdot are both US centric. Perhaps you should get out of your own bubble.
Bananas with paper labels (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Trash can liners (Score:2)
Trash can liner sales are up 1100% in places that have already banned plastic shopping bags.
Follow the money.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Trash can liners (Score:4, Informative)
And that's related to the article at hand, how, exactly?
Some people just can't contain their outrage long enough to figure out what the article at hand is about. The OP appears to fall into that group of people.
The type of bags being banned aren't the ones people use for trash can liners; they're the ones used to put produce and meat in, that at checkout go into the bags people use for trash can liners.
Some people use the produce bags to contain food scraps that go into the kitchen trash container, to keep the decomposing scraps from stinking up the kitchen (yes, I know about composting; most people don't do that), but that is not the common use case for trash can liners.
Re: (Score:2)
The type of bags being banned aren't the ones people use for trash can liners
I wasn't going to point it out for them, but that's what I was getting at.
Re: (Score:2)
And that's related to the article at hand, how, exactly?
Some people just can't contain their outrage long enough to figure out what the article at hand is about. The OP appears to fall into that group of people.
The type of bags being banned aren't the ones people use for trash can liners; they're the ones used to put produce and meat in, that at checkout go into the bags people use for trash can liners.
Some people use the produce bags to contain food scraps that go into the kitchen trash container, to keep the decomposing scraps from stinking up the kitchen (yes, I know about composting; most people don't do that), but that is not the common use case for trash can liners.
But it brings up the question - should all forms of plastic bags be banned? We do all the holy things like use totes and wrap our frozen meats in paper that presumably doesn't go to a landfill with the rest of the trash.
What will be the replacement for our trash can liners?
Note - I take my lawn clippings to our local composting facility, and I use a heavy duty big plastic bag to hold them. I do re-use it, so I suppose I'm not too bad a person.
But make no mistake, there is a pretty big push to elimi
Re: (Score:2)
But make no mistake, there is a pretty big push to eliminate all plastics. What replaces it?
As far as I can tell, the big push is to eliminate petroleum-based plastics and replace them will plastics made from renewable resources (so-called "bio-plastics").
Garburators? (Score:2)
Some people use the produce bags to contain food scraps that go into the kitchen trash container, to keep the decomposing scraps from stinking up the kitchen (yes, I know about composting; most people don't do that)
This makes me wonder if I can just put the compostable bags down the drain with my food scraps as well?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
What did our parents do? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Somehow our parents were able to use paper bags for groceries. I never heard my mom whine about grocery bags. If we have mental breakdown over such a minor issue then how can we possibly solve the big problems? It's not rocket science after all. But apparently fixing the most minor problems really disturbs some people.
Those paper bags were very different. The paper bags in use today are pretty crummy. The paper they are made of has been recycled too many times, and each time paper is recycled, it gets weaker. That's why a lot of paper products have a percentage of first-use paper in them. I can use a tote or two (we have one for regular items, and an insulated one to keep the frozen stuff frozen.
Re: (Score:2)
They're only crummy because they're cheaper. If grocery stores spent what they used to for bags (adjusted for inflation) they'd still be decent.
"This kind of plastic film is not recyclable" (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes, it is.
Which suggests that the motivation behind this legislation is either
a) hysteria,
b) lies
c) both of the above.
Haven't we been insisting that we should #followthescience? Are Twitter and FB going to ban the State of CA for KNOWN, provable scientific untruths? Is Paypal going to threaten to charge them?
I think we all know the answers, don't we?
Re: (Score:2)
California's recycling system is such a racket that it seems that Sacramento can't regulate them to actually recycle anything. At this point all that is left is to take plastics out of the system entirely. Consider this law an act of desperation rather than progressive overreach.
Re: (Score:2)
I'll chose D) It's a bad quote but you're the one engaging in hysteria.
Only a miniscule portion of the plastic we "recycle" is ever actually recycled https://phys.org/news/2022-05-... [phys.org] hence recycling as it is now does not really work to reduce plastic waste.
Of course accepting D means you can't throw a fit and be angry at those with different political ideals than yourself so just like it was the first thing to come to mind for you you'll probably continue to choose hysteria.
Re: (Score:3)
When you start to work with plastics for a bit you soon realize that no plastic is truly recyclable. Even in a best case scenario, the recycled plastic will lose most of its mechanical properties, and the recycling process will waste so much energy that it will have a bigger impact on the environment than just incinerating it for energy production. The best you can hope for is the production of some synthetic fibers, some types of garden furniture, or paving material. And you definitely can't recycle this m
Store Workers (Score:2)
Again? (Score:2)
Didn't they trying this crap before? Have you noticed that the whole crusade against plastic straws magically went away when COVID hit? Now that COVID is over, they're back to the same old brow-beating they are so comfortable with. I had a friend tell me in the 1980s that California was the penis of the nation. I didn't believe that at the time but I do now. California loves to screw the rest of the nation over with their phony altruism. To this day, if you want to sell something to a California state
idiots (Score:2)
It may come as a surprise to Eben Schwartz, but I actually eat stuff other than bananas.
Do away with bags, and we will have individually wrapped produce. Then they can pass laws against that.
Re:We did this, (Score:5, Interesting)
If you are so opposed to carrying an empty bag to the store (which I don't see how that's a huge pain when you are prepared to carry a full back back), then it seems like paper bags would be an option for you.
I'd guess enough people would go for reusing bags to offset your single-use use of reusable bags.
Particularly if you aren't a 'car person', I can't believe you've been that happy with the typical single use bag. For me, those things barely hold together long enough to walk not even 50 feet without a handle breaking or something.
Re: We did this, (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Paper bags rip easily, especially if they happen to get wet.
Most people don't carry a backpack with them at all times. The reusable bags are considerably more bulky (even when folded) than the disposable bags ever were too. It's fine if you're in a car, easy to carry a few bags around, but on foot many people will travel light and have a spur of the moment decision to buy a few items.
If you have no bag to carry the items, you will either end up buying one (which you will probably only use once, and will be
Re: (Score:2)
What I don't get is that while talking about paper bags ripping easily, in my experience the single-use plastic bags are similarly likely to rip and tear. If I have anything vaguely likely to be damaged by falling out, I'm holding the shoddy plastic bag underneath and around.
Interestingly, it seems the inventor of the 'single use' design envisioned the bag as reusable. In fact, I have a couple of 'single use' designs that are thicker, and they would be great as reusable, and just as small as it (it's just
Data point (Score:3)
A year ago, I started carrying a few drawstring bags (These: https://www.dollartree.com/sol... [dollartree.com]) in my purse for foraging, groceries, etc. They cover most of my need for plastic bags, and pack down tiny enough that I don't notice them in my purse.
They are a good for the use case you describe. That said, I grok what it takes to draw nylon into thread, weave it into fabric and rope, sew it together, label it for sale, logistics it across an ocean and onto my local store shelf. I have no reason to believe th
Re: (Score:2)
or you'll come back later (likely in the car).
This is why I always drive, not walk, to the grocery store. There are always reusable bags in my car.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:We did this, (Score:5, Informative)
No you didn't implement this, because that's not what's happening. The guy quoting the article is a moron, and he even quoted the text that contradicted him his own headline. California is very specifically banning the material used for produce bags. It's those long roles of plastic bags that everyone puts their product in. These bags are NOT recyclable, and the law will require more environmentally friendly bags. I.e., bio degradable or recyclable like paper bags.
They aren't banning the bags and they will still exist. They'll just be made of a different material in 2025.
Re: (Score:2)
The guy quoting the article is a moron, and he even quoted the text that contradicted him his own headline.
Gotta love dog whistles. It's unfortunate that people sometimes don't even realize they are being whistled. (I've been just as guilty of it as the rest of us. At least I try to be better about it.)
Re: (Score:2)
I had no problem changing to a few 100% heavy cotton washable bags. Strong enough to sling over my shoulder for the walk home. Has worked great.
I must admit thought, I was a little exasperated to find most choices were still plastic lined bags with no material strength to them.
Re:We did this, (Score:5, Interesting)
Imagine being so self-centered that you feel you can publicly admit that you have 300 perfectly usable bags but won't use them.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You only need one. I've been using the same cotton tote for store runs for almost a decade now.
Wife and I have more of a system. We have a bag for groceries and one for frozen goods, as well as a fold down insulated case. We like to keep the frozen stuff well frozen. I doubt the case is biodegradable, but we've had it for years - we don't want it decomposing in the back of her car.
We have had to replace the totes on occasion when a meat product has sprung a leak and left blood stains on them. So I'm hoping that whatever new system is in place seals meat off from the environment better.
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe get cloth/fabric bags?
Re: (Score:2)
The local Libertarian group was handing them out at an Earth Day event a while back. As a bonus, it has their logo with an eagle carrying an AR on it, so no one thinks you're some sort peace lovin' hippy.
Re: (Score:3)
The result is "reusable" plastic bag that will last many times longer in the environment, and cannot be reused for other purposes. This is misguided. The result is more and more durable plastic waste everywhere. I have at least 300 of these bags and cannot recycle them. (no i will not carry shopping bags with me at all times - these are for car people) .These bags will last thousands of years. And I keep getting more of them. Eventually I will have to throw this mountain of plastic into the trash. There is no where else to put it.
You should try "pockets"; they're the new clothing accessory all the kids are using.
Re:Get ready (Score:5, Interesting)
Connecticut already banned single-use plastic bags a few years ago.
It's honestly not all that big of a deal. We now bring our own heavy-duty plastic or burlap bags to the store to put our groceries in. If you forget the bags, you just need to buy paper ones at the store for 5 cents each.
If anything, it kinda nudged me into using the grocery store's new self-checkout system, where I scan my own groceries and bag them while I'm shopping. That's great for me, but probably not so great for the checkout people that I never visit anymore.
Re: (Score:2)
Welcome to Slashdot. There's something above the comment section called the summary, often abbreviated TFS.
In this case, TFS indicates that what is being banned now is the cling-film-type bag used in produce and meat departments to package goods. As the California spokesperson asked, do you really need your bananas in their own plastic bag? Probably not. Brussels sprouts? Plums? Raw meat (to prevent cross-contamination of all your other unbagged food)? There's a much better argument for those.
Re: (Score:2)
Raw meat (to prevent cross-contamination of all your other unbagged food)? There's a much better argument for those.
Is there? If you buy your meat at the butcher counter it comes in paper instead of plastic. And the cost is generally the same for stuff sold pre-packaged...
Re: Get ready (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
At our local supermarket, the butchers put the raw meat in the sort of plastic bag that's being banned, and then wrap it in brown paper. Back in the "good old days" before they started wearing disposable gloves to handle the meat, they would use a sheet of waxed paper as a sort of inner liner before wrapping in brown paper. Haven't seen that in a long time. Personally, I don't care what kind of bag they replace these with, so long as a wet head of lettuce doesn't make it soggy enough to tear through.
Re: (Score:2)
Raw meat (to prevent cross-contamination of all your other unbagged food)? There's a much better argument for those.
Is there? If you buy your meat at the butcher counter it comes in paper instead of plastic. And the cost is generally the same for stuff sold pre-packaged...
It's usually a waxed paper or a film of plastic on regular paper. Certainly the stuff we wrap my home made sausage and bacon in.
The paper wrapped stuff can be an issue with freezing though.
Re: (Score:2)
Again, I don't see the big deal. Most of my produce just goes directly into my reusable bag after weighing it. I don't waste my time with those stupid plastic clingwrap bags.
Re:Get ready (Score:5, Interesting)
Note that cornstarch is not plastic.
Re:Get ready (Score:4, Interesting)
Note that cornstarch is not plastic.
Depends on your definition? Any sort of flexible material made of polymers joined together in this way would be called plastic to me.
Re: (Score:2)
Many of the grocery stores in the Bay Area already offer compostable bags for veggies. Still are using ordinary cling film for prepackaged meat, paper for what you get at the butcher counter.
As far as I am aware there isn't a replacement for cling film that is both clear and wraps easily. So expect meats to be packed in bulky compostable plastic boxes. They take quite a bit more material and energy to create and most consumers will place them in the trash instead of trying to compost them. Another option mi
Re: (Score:3)
I hope not. I hope they will move to cornstarch bags which are readily available and are been in use everywhere. Note that cornstarch is not plastic.
https://www.thinkingsustainabl... [thinkingsustainably.com] Yes it is plastic. Biodegradable as well.
Re:Get ready (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh please. Italy banned single-use plastic bags several years ago, and the world didn't end.
You have rolls of biodegradable bags for fresh veggies, and then you either bring your own reusable bags, that last for years, or buy bigger, sturdier biodegradable bags at the cash register.
The biodegradable bags then can be reused for organic trash.
Re: (Score:2)
Similar in the UK. Been taking our own bags with us for years.
It's actually more convenient. You can pick up a hand scanner to zap the bar code on things you want to buy, and then place them directly into your shopping bag. When finished you just go to the express checkout and pay.
Re: (Score:2)
It's much easier to pack the reusable bags in the trolley. They have folds to maintain their shape, and a flat bottom.
I don't mind doing the work as it saves time overall, and results in better packing due to not being rushed.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Also, usually the same people: "You better not expect to earn enough money to do anything besides drive to and from work."
Re: (Score:3)
People: "You lazy shits need to get to work scanning and packing my groceries for me."
Also, usually the same people: "You better not expect to earn enough money to do anything besides drive to and from work."
Another viewpoint:
My wife will not use the self checkout lines. She's a real extrovert, and loves talking to all manner of people. She knows all the cashiers and managers at our local Wally World, Trader Joes, and restaurants she goes to.
Me? I use the self checkout to avoid talking to people.
Re: (Score:2)
She's a real extrovert, and loves talking to all manner of people. She knows all the cashiers and managers at our local Wally World, Trader Joes, and restaurants she goes to
By all means, use the check-out people. To each their own. Your wife's attitude isn't the same as the comment I was replying to. They expect a minimum wage drone to scan and pack their items for them, and can't understand why noone is willing to do it for $7.25/hour.
I'm with you, I'd rather not talk to anyone, and I'm usually out the door faster if I do it.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
boots are even charging 30p for a paper bag where I live.
You do realize you were paying for them before too, right?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Same in Brazil. Biodegradable bags are just a little more expensive than old non-biodegradable ones, but we're OK with this, since environment is a very sensitive matter here.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Depending on the store, you should be able to drop off your old bags when you pick up your order. It should be all of them soon.
Re:Get ready (Score:4, Informative)
For some reason they can't just make the same bags out of better stuff.
7th(ish) sentence: "The article notes that Trader Joe's is already using compostable produce bags" and if you don't want to read the actual article. "The bags, called 'pre-checkout bags' in grocery store lingo, must be replaced no later than Jan. 1, 2025, with recycled paper bags, or bags made of compostable plastic." or does that not meet your definition of "better stuff"?
Re: (Score:2)
For some reason they can't just make the same bags out of better stuff.
7th(ish) sentence: "The article notes that Trader Joe's is already using compostable produce bags" and if you don't want to read the actual article. "The bags, called 'pre-checkout bags' in grocery store lingo, must be replaced no later than Jan. 1, 2025, with recycled paper bags, or bags made of compostable plastic." or does that not meet your definition of "better stuff"?
I loves me my Trader Joes, but their paper bags are about the worst thing at the store. You can only recycle paper so many times before it is useless except for blown in insulation. The little strands of cellulose need to lock together, or it will fall apart.
Corn plastic is pretty interesting stuff.
I just had a weird thought - how about a plastic made from foodstuff like corn that we can cook and eat?
Fun fact. there are packing peanuts made of the same stuff that Cheetos are made of, sans the flavor
Re: (Score:2)
Corn plastic is pretty interesting stuff.
Yeah, not only can we use arable land to grow ethanol for our cars, we can use it to grow plastic bags as well. Hard to say whether farming plastic or pumping it out of the ground is more environmentally friendly, but I'm sure farmers will receive undeserved tax dollars in any case.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Paper bags are fundamentally incapable of being used for carrying anything hearvier than a few apples. Also, paper bags don't stop any leaks. If anything, they make leaks worse because now you have to deal with a leak and gooey paper pulp.
Last time I looked they put heavy stuff like cement in paper bags.
Maybe the problem is you.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Also, in related news: If the fruit you just bought is leaking on the way home you are doing something way wrong-er than making an sub-optimal paper/plastic decision.
I'll go along with that. But the problem usually isn't leaking fruit (though if a bag of plums gets crushed by an incompetent bagger at checkout...); the problem is usually that lots of leafy produce items and things like celery and radishes are wet because the produce bins have automated sprayers that periodically mist the produce to keep it from wilting. At least, that's a very common practice in Southern California.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes you make a very think very strong bag out of paper; guess what those are expensive.
It probably would not be very green to use sackcrete like bags in the quantities grocery bags are used either; also not very practical as you could not keep very many of them at the end of the checkout lane.
However that said the traditional paper grocery bag design is basically adequate, and generally speaking if you have no secondary use for the plastic bags (pets, diaper pail liners, etc) probably the way to go because
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Thick paper bags, grocery bags are much thinner.
Cement has to be kept dry, if you get it wet the paper bag will rip and the cement will harden. Plastic bags unless they're sealed could actually encourage condensation to form inside which would render the cement unusable.
Also sacks are carried differently than bags - bags have thin handles which require a lot more strength than the walls of the bag, or they will just rip off.
Thick paper bags would be a lot more expensive, or you'd end up effectively with car
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, the problem is him, because paper grocery bags are just as sturdy as the bags cement comes in. You're a genius.
Re: (Score:2)
Of course no one said grocery bags were as sturdy as cement bags so there's that.
Re: (Score:2)
Paper bags are fundamentally incapable of being used for carrying anything hearvier than a few apples. Also, paper bags don't stop any leaks. If anything, they make leaks worse because now you have to deal with a leak and gooey paper pulp.
Last time I looked they put heavy stuff like cement in paper bags.
Maybe the problem is you.
Sure, although the bagged concrete section at our local Lowe's is covered with concrete dust.
But yeah, first use paper can be pretty strong. I think we get into problems when it gets recycled too many times. The fibers that interlock with each other and provide strength get shorter every time it is recycled, eventually becoming paper that is best for blown in insulation.
The local Trader Joes uses Paper bags that have been recycled one too many times.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Why are your fresh fruits and vegetables leaking on the way home from the grocery store?
They had to pee.
Re: (Score:2)
Try not buying fragile balloons filled with meat juice.
Seriously WTF are you doing. I've been doin shopping with cloth bags ever since the bag charge in the UK and this has never happened to me. Come to think of it for child safety, the old style shopping bags haven't been waterproof since forever and I've never had meat fluid go everywhere.
Re: (Score:2)
Predicating laws on the lack of mishaps is like assuming the average case is representative of all cases. It's stupid.
As is continuing to produce a product that is difficult to deal with after use when a nearly perfect viable alternative exists. I
Re:Good to see Lawmakers tackling difficult issues (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm so frustrated to see that our lawmakers are worried about tackling the real issues facing CA.
Yes, I understand there are other problems in the state/country/world, most of them are very difficult/complex problems to solve. Some of them will likely never be solved to your satisfaction. That doesn't mean we should sit on our thumbs and do nothing about small things that are easy to fix.
This will be my last week before heading off to Texas.
I'm sure you will be missed.
Re: (Score:2)
Meanwhile crime is rampant
Is it?
Re: (Score:2)
Meanwhile crime is rampant
Is it?
I suppose it depends on your definition of "rampant". Property crime, vandalism, and gang-related violence is up substantially in some parts of the country. Perhaps you haven't noticed the rise in smash-and-grab theft, street "takeovers", and catalytic converter theft.
Re: (Score:2)
Meanwhile crime is rampant
Is it?
I suppose it depends on your definition of "rampant". Property crime, vandalism, and gang-related violence is up substantially in some parts of the country. Perhaps you haven't noticed the rise in smash-and-grab theft, street "takeovers", and catalytic converter theft.
In a country the size of America there will always be areas where crime is going up, and areas where it's going down. What's the overall picture and how does it compare over the last 100 years?
My perception of crime in the US is that it's still a safer place to visit than it was in the 70's when I first went, but that's an ant's-eye-view of one massive anthill.
Re: (Score:2)
My perception of crime in the US is that it's still a safer place to visit than it was in the 70's when I first went, but that's an ant's-eye-view of one massive anthill.
The types of crimes I listed don't generally affect tourist safety, though I'd imagine that being in a jewelry store during a smash-and-grab could be pretty traumatizing. Tourists don't usually frequent areas where a lot of vandalism and gang shootings take place, and hotel parking garages aren't popular targets for the catalytic converter thieves that cruise suburban neighborhoods.
Re: (Score:2)
My perception of crime in the US is that it's still a safer place to visit than it was in the 70's when I first went, but that's an ant's-eye-view of one massive anthill.
The types of crimes I listed don't generally affect tourist safety, though I'd imagine that being in a jewelry store during a smash-and-grab could be pretty traumatizing. Tourists don't usually frequent areas where a lot of vandalism and gang shootings take place, and hotel parking garages aren't popular targets for the catalytic converter thieves that cruise suburban neighborhoods.
Well, all these things are false if you're talking about modern Mexico, and they were false in 1976 New York (aside from the catalytic converters, of course). Signs of vandalism and gangs were everywhere you looked.
Re: (Score:2)
It's really not terribly hard to bring your own sturdy bags/backpacks/whatever.
It really isn't..
Re: (Score:2)
I don't even use bags. I put everything back in the cart, then into the car, then from the car to away at home. No bags needed. I do have a couple of cardboard boxes in the car that help, but I don't use grocery bags.