Americans Eye European Colleges To Save Money On Tuition (bloomberg.com) 168
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Bloomberg: Surging US tuition costs have more American parents sending their children to college in Europe as they look to save money on higher education. What once was a niche opportunity for wealthy families looking to add some flair to their kids' resumes is now becoming increasingly common as tuition and fees climb in the US, stretching budgets that are already getting hit by inflation and rising housing costs. In France, the number of American students surged 50% in the 2021-22 school year compared to the previous year; there was a 16% gain in the Netherlands, while the UK saw a 28% surge in applicants this year compared to 2020. Google searches for "College in Europe" hit a three-year high in August and have remained elevated as college application season ramps up.
Living abroad comes with its own expenses and hassles, but parents have many reasons for sending their kids to school overseas. Some mention the less stressful application process, access to different cultures and the ability to travel. But money is perhaps the biggest factor. The average cost for college tuition has more doubled in the past two decades, hitting $35,551 in 2022, according to the Education Data Initiative. Top schools, including in the Ivy League, charge far more. While President Joe Biden's loan forgiveness program will offer graduates some reprieve, crippling student debt is fueling a backlash against the prices of higher education. Tuition for international students in Europe, meanwhile, is free at most German universities, costs $2,778 a year in France and as much as 15,000 euros in the Netherlands. In the UK, an undergraduate will pay about $40,516 a year to study English at Oxford, while the University of St Andrews runs more than 26,000 pounds. But students in Europe typically get their degrees in three years, not four. "Besides the less stressful application process, Americans' chances abroad are also a lot better," adds Bloomberg. "While top US schools like Harvard and Stanford have acceptance rates in the low single digits, about 14% of students get into Oxford and 41% get into the University of Saint Andrews, two of the most popular options for Americans."
Living abroad comes with its own expenses and hassles, but parents have many reasons for sending their kids to school overseas. Some mention the less stressful application process, access to different cultures and the ability to travel. But money is perhaps the biggest factor. The average cost for college tuition has more doubled in the past two decades, hitting $35,551 in 2022, according to the Education Data Initiative. Top schools, including in the Ivy League, charge far more. While President Joe Biden's loan forgiveness program will offer graduates some reprieve, crippling student debt is fueling a backlash against the prices of higher education. Tuition for international students in Europe, meanwhile, is free at most German universities, costs $2,778 a year in France and as much as 15,000 euros in the Netherlands. In the UK, an undergraduate will pay about $40,516 a year to study English at Oxford, while the University of St Andrews runs more than 26,000 pounds. But students in Europe typically get their degrees in three years, not four. "Besides the less stressful application process, Americans' chances abroad are also a lot better," adds Bloomberg. "While top US schools like Harvard and Stanford have acceptance rates in the low single digits, about 14% of students get into Oxford and 41% get into the University of Saint Andrews, two of the most popular options for Americans."
inflation (Score:2)
In the same way that Chinese citizens came to the West and bought up properties, bidding up prices, this move by the Americans will bid up prices for the Europeans.
Expect the Europeans to start noticing that it gets more expensive / harder to get their education. In Germany the colleges are cheap to the students because taxes are paying for it. So obviously as always when there is a discount more people will be taking advantage in that deal, since they are not paying those taxes in Europe, they will only
Re:inflation (Score:5, Insightful)
Germany has a fertility rate of 1.5 and needs skilled immigrants. Many Americans educated in Germany will stay and add to the workforce. Win-win.
The tuition prices in the UK appear to have a hefty profit margin.
Re:inflation (Score:5, Interesting)
Bingo. This looks like the US is outsourcing its education spending, but in reality, it's brain drain in disguise. A bunch of people I studied with are foreigners. Now 90% of them work in the exact same city they studied. None of them went home.
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Re: inflation (Score:2)
Many Americans educated in Germany will stay and add to the workforce.
Not when they already have US citizenship and can apply for jobs in the US. Pay is far, far, better in the US than it is in Europe. You'd be crazy to take a lower paying job, away from family, in a foreign country, just because that's where you got your degree.
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As I understand, US is one of the very few countries in the world which requires it's citizens to pay tax on income earned while working overseas. And due to various US specific regulations, there are banks outside the US which refuse to let Americans open bank accounts even if they are working there.
Even if salary is lower, if the cost of living is also lower for a similar lifestyle, I don't see why people may not be willing to stay and work.
Not surprised if a substantial number of those who study overseas
Germany has good trade schools & not college a (Score:2)
Germany has good trade schools & not college for all.
The USA needs that.
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Germany has good trade schools & not college for all. The USA needs that.
A fellow I work with married a german lady, and told me that they have early on placement testing, and you get more or less assigned to what path you are best suited for. I'm not certain if it is still done that way.
It sounds strange to American ears, but it also speaks to German efficiency.
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Sometimes it's rightfully ignored, because when I think back at my time in elementary school the teachers were awfully under-qualified to assess learning ability for neurodivergent people. Sometimes it's because parents think of their child as the smartest, send them off to "Gymnasium" where they then don't do well enough to keep up with the pace.
Though there's a
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Though there's a lot of other paths how to acquire a diploma that makes you eligible to attend a university. And there's other approaches where assessment happens a lot later (around grade 8, I think).
Speaking of other paths, I was in a situation where I was apparently supposed to be working in the mines like so many of my relatives. So I got very little guidance or encouragement for University. That was for my Sister, the presumed "smart one".
So I decided I wanted to get a degree. Turns out that you can go to college as a non-traditional or "adjunct" student as they call it in my case.
You take some tests to see where you are, and they have remedial courses if need be.
Then after you get something
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Through merit, you can still get there, and probably may have a more solid foundation than others that were fast-tracked into university.
I think the only way in Germany that blocks you from attending university is if you already did and failed a certain module too often, like failing higher mathematics 1 four times (you usually get 3 tries and perhaps a forth if you can come up with a reason why you need a fourth attempt). This then can you bar from compl
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Every country still needs tradespeople to keep their countries running.
For certain. In recent years u the USA, we've dismissed vocational learning as something for stupid people to do, and there is now a shortage. I saw an advertisement for finish carpenters for 50 dollars an hour. That's ~ 104K per year.
Meanwhile, with a Masters degree in Social work here, you are looking at around 68K. Those are just two things picked out of a hat, and of course there are variable numbers for variable fields, but there ya go.
Note - even back in the early 70's academics had a strange o
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I saw an advertisement for finish carpenters for 50 dollars an hour. That's ~ 104K per year.
Well, that's just dumb. Why import carpenters from Finland? ;-P
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We have this idea that education solves everything, but I'm pretty sure the pe
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Yes, very much so. High school is different according to 8th grade testing. If you want to go to University you do good on your tests. American heads would explode.
It's a pity we don't do that over here. I bust European chops regularly, but this is something that they really got right. Probably based on less scorn for people who don't have degrees like we have here.
I suppose mommy and daddy might be upset that their child isn't the next Nobel prize winner, but a person well placed in a career they can excel at is more likely to be happy.
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It's a simple principle: Allocate resources according to need instead of ability to pay, e.g. "academic" pupils will thrive in Higher-Ed whereas more practically minded pupils will more likely thrive in vocational training. There's a growing popularity in providing pathways from vocational professions into academic study too.
Is that in relation to the growing number of males who are opting out of college? At my institution, it is 60 heading toward 70 percent females to 30 percent males. For some reason or other, a lot of men are going the vocational route.
And it has become a problem, as when the women with college degrees hit their mid 30's and want to start looking at marriage and children, there aren't enough worthy males for them.
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American heads would explode.
But how would we know? They're all wearing football helmets.
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You're seriously overestimate the average American's level of activity. Most of them are wearing beer hats and do little more than cheer for a small minority who actually play a sport.
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In the same way that Chinese citizens came to the West and bought up properties, bidding up prices, this move by the Americans will bid up prices for the Europeans.
Expect the Europeans to start noticing that it gets more expensive / harder to get their education.
So much this. And they won't be all that happy to have their taxes increased to support the American students.
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Wut? Fees from foreign students cross-subsidise fees for domestic students in the UK. There's an issue about place availability. Also, it's hilarious you think this is a problem only now that Americans are involved. The UK has tons of Chinese and Indian students too. Plus European countries all have lots of students crossing borders for study too, always have done.
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Wut? Fees from foreign students cross-subsidise fees for domestic students in the UK. There's an issue about place availability. Also, it's hilarious you think this is a problem only now that Americans are involved. The UK has tons of Chinese and Indian students too. Plus European countries all have lots of students crossing borders for study too, always have done.
Did you have some short of argument with me in your head or something? I can't find where I said it was only a problem now that Americans are involved.
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You ignored the part where your argument is utter Bollocks. Universities can charge foreign students more than domestic students.
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You ignored the part where your argument is utter Bollocks. Universities can charge foreign students more than domestic students.
Way back in this discussion, before It turned into whatever it did, I noted that taxes would go up if a lot more students would attend who were not citizens.
You have the numbers that show that is not going to happen? Sounds like they could eliminate those taxes by eliminating domestic students, because the American students would cover all of the costs of running the University.
I do know that we charge more for our of state Students, and even more for non-American citizens. But the numbers aren't enough
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Prices? Nah, I'm not worried. I've seen the education system in the US, and I know how our universities work. That fad will fizzle out pretty fucking quickly.
Universities here already deal with way more students than they have room for. The first 2 semesters are generally known as the "knockout rounds". Dropouts are around 70% for the less popular subjects to over 90% for the more popular ones.
I've seen kids with high school diploma in the US who have trouble with basic math. You think they will stand a cha
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You think they will stand a chance getting into a computer science class in Europe where they pretty much expect you to be able to write complex programs when starting with the curriculum and be firm with differential equations because you will need them for the EE classes?
Hahahaha, no. I went through that. No differential equation requirement in CS and no EE requirement either and no expectation that you can already code. But the Calculus and Linear Algebra professors both told us not to worry about what we learned in school, they would repeat anything non-basic in the first 3 weeks and then everybody would be on equal footing because after that nothing would have been taught in any school. Oh, and those calculus and linear algebra courses were shared with the students of Ma
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I like how you think that US Tier 1 & Tier 2 universities are different in this regard. Podunk Metro State U or U Phoenix might not expect a lot of their students, but students attending those poor institutions shouldn't expect to
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At that point they stop accepting foreign students. That's already happening.
And it will not raise cost on education since in most European countries that's actually a constant. The thing that will get more expensive is stuff like housing, but that's getting more expensive without any help from foreign students anyway.
And since all European countries have things like VAT, and foreign students don't stay in the country tax free to begin with, your 'taxes' argument doesn't hold an awful lot of water.
If you ad
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One would assume that foreigners pay a higher tuition.
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Don't most countries charge more tuition fees for their international students? For example, undergraduate tuition fees are a maximum of £9,250/year in England, for UK students. International students pay significantly more:
Oxford £28,950 - £44,240/year
https://www.ox.ac.uk/admission... [ox.ac.uk]
Cambridge £24,507 - £63,990/year
https://www.undergraduate.stud... [cam.ac.uk]
International students help to subsidize domestic students.
The Real reason (Score:3, Insightful)
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Total nonsense. In the USA school used to be cheaper but then we eliminated the subsidies, THAT is why school in the USA is so expensive. We moved from subsidies to student loans. Now the Boomers love to tell us about how they had to pay for college and we should do the same despite the fact that they didn't have to pay the majority of their costs.
Re: The Real reason (Score:2)
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Taxpayers cannot keep paying for tuition increases that are higher than their pay increases
Right, the school administrator's union is evil and must be destroyed. It's driving these cost increases.
Re:The real reason (Score:3)
That's sort of the popular narrative, but it's not really a great explanation. The underlying costs of college have increased far faster than the inflation rate. There are a few reasons for this: (1) college is labor-intensive, and the cost of labor has increased faster than the inflation rate, (2) colleges have had a large run-up in the number of administrators, further increasing costs, (3) colleges have gone on an amenity-building spree, so the experience that today's students get is far nicer than w
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The leap in administrative salaries is the biggest problem here. All that other stuff is just caused by expensive administrators trying to justify their salaries and/or distract you from them. No one at an educational institution should ever get paid more than the median of the educators' salaries.
Re:The real reason (Score:4)
Young people have enjoyed the "undergraduate university experience" including a safe way to strike out for themselves away from home, meeting new and wierd people, getting exposed to new ideas, getting high quality tuition, enjoying sports, autonomy, sex etc. for centuries
I don't see where the fancy facilities factor into that greatly. They seem to be more to impress the parents than for the students
Re:The Real reason (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The Real reason (Score:5, Informative)
Total nonsense. In the USA school used to be cheaper but then we eliminated the subsidies, THAT is why school in the USA is so expensive. We moved from subsidies to student loans. Now the Boomers love to tell us about how they had to pay for college and we should do the same despite the fact that they didn't have to pay the majority of their costs.
This is patently false. The vast majority of US universities are state-based, and thus heavily subsidized by their state legislatures. These amounts are easily found with a simple search engine glance.
The reason why US universities, public and private, charge so much is that that can. They're having the best of both worlds; either state subsidies or large private donations (the Ivies have larger endowments than some nations have total net worth), AND high tuition costs because in the US, kids are told they have no future without a college degree. Worse, they're not only encouraged to go into huge debt, they're encouraged to "follow their dreams" and get degrees in things that will never, ever result in a job that can pay those loans off. The kid with the Math or Chemical Engineering degree from Georgia Tech or MIT will do just fine. The kid that got into Penn State or Brown and got a degree in Social Work or English? Not so much.
The truth is that more kids than not really have no desire to go to college for an education. They're basically scared into college, when they could make a good living, sans debt, learning a trade. Coders get outsourced to India. Your local plumber doesn't. And he makes damned good money after a few years.
Bottom line, as long as we keep telling our kids that they're failures without a Bachelors Degree, then colleges will continue have their cake and eat it too. And things like debt forgiveness? Colleges love that. They can continue to hike tuition, and they know Uncle Sugar will cover them regardless.
Re:The Real reason (Score:4, Interesting)
Sounds good, but we have the same requirements for degrees in Europe without the insane debt, tuition fees, or a concept of requiring debt forgiveness, so the real reason is likely something else.
They're basically scared into college, when they could make a good living, sans debt, learning a trade. Coders get outsourced to India. Your local plumber doesn't. And he makes damned good money after a few years.
You are a very short-term thinker. No tradesman gets rich being on the tools. The successful ones are those who run business and/or seek further education. Yeah coming out of university you'll likely be out earned by a plumber. A few years later, if that's still the case then you did something wrong. And while you point to a single degree (out of the many that are offered at a typical university), the overwhelming majority of university grads cannot be outsourced to India. And even for the specific case you cherry picked unemployment in the software / tech sector is well below national average rate.
Re:The Real reason (Score:5, Insightful)
Taking inflation into account, states reduced subsidies over the last 40 years. This coupled with the push for more kids to attend college means the amount of state money per student has gone done significantly. This alone explains much of the rising cost at state universities. This can be confirmed by using a search engine and actually reading the articles.
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Total nonsense. In the USA school used to be cheaper but then we eliminated the subsidies, THAT is why school in the USA is so expensive. We moved from subsidies to student loans. Now the Boomers love to tell us about how they had to pay for college and we should do the same despite the fact that they didn't have to pay the majority of their costs.
While that is part of the issue, as a person who has been in the environment for decades, there is more than just subsidies and boomers.
Yeah - back in the day, a lot of us had part time jobs we used to pay for our education. I got mine while working full time. Cannot do that now that the costs would suck up a minimum wage jobs yearly take home.
What does this? A few things.
Social pressure:
Here in the USA, social pressures have for quite a while been that if you do not have a degree, you are a failur
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Total nonsense. In the USA school used to be cheaper but then we eliminated the subsidies,
You also made every dorm room into a five star hotel and added sports facilites better than most pro teams have.
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and having an pulse get's an student loan in cases (Score:2)
and having an pulse get's you an student loan in some cases
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"I could have taken the opportunity to read a book on my own, I could have explored a subject using the whole of human knowledge available to me? Betrayed! My parents didn't give a shit either! They were just foisting me off instead of teaching me the very important lesson of doing s
Oh, you're in for a rude awakening (Score:5, Interesting)
The price for the cheap colleges over here is that they don't give a shit about you. There's space for 200 in the course and 2000 apply? Take a wild guess what happens next. Merciless testing. 90% dropout. If you're one of the top 10%, welcome, else, fuck off.
Nobody gives a fuck about you in our colleges. Nobody. Nobody needs your money, nobody needs to hand you a degree. In essence, you're a nuisance and if you drop out, the only thing that changes for them is that they have less work.
Of course, on the other hand that means if you hold a degree of my university, it really means something. In my case, it means I'm one of the top 5% who started. Yes, 95% dropout.
Good luck. You need it.
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What a horrid waste of so many people's time, energy and money.
One of the features of the top colleges is that they can actually teach the people they admit. If a college has such a poor track record it should be reformed or closed, a 95% dropout rate is no badge of honor
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It has more to do with everyone and their dog trying their hand at something they have no business trying.
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What advantage is there for them? Their money comes from the governement and it's not tied to student number, so what's the "advantage" they supposedly take?
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Just to play devil's advocate, let's turn that around a little.
I attended a German university in the 70s. Admittedly, I was only there one year, before returning to the States to finish my degree.
But you learn quickly that you need to bring your A game. Yes, lots of people applied to universities and only a fraction made it in. But part of the goal of a higher education is to challenge you to work harder and improve yourself. To do that, and make the professors' time worth spending on the students, you need
Education loans should be like a business loan (Score:3)
You plan to get a degree in X? Show me your future earnings to pay it off.
If colleges were on the hook for unpaid college loans costs would drop like a rock. With government on the hook colleges have little incentive to be cost conscious.
This also doesn't look good [cbssports.com] for an educational institution.
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It would also help if colleges in the US wouldn't charge an arm and a leg for no other reason than "Because people will get a loan anyway", and stop spending money on absolute nonsense like football teams that have nothing whatsoever to do with education.
Add to that the extremely weird fetish the US has developed that "Everyone should have a college education!", and you get what you have now.
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You can save money in the US on tuition (Score:2)
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Most of our trade schools are craptacular.
Going to a 2-year college first is good advice, though, for lots of reasons. Maybe you find out you don't like going to school enough to do well there. Maybe you get a job you like. Maybe you find out you didn't like your major. All of that is cheaper there. Also, in some states you get guaranteed matriculation.
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The other ones are crap too, lots of reports of people coming out of them with no clue whatsoever. There's no accountability in education in America.
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I have three data points on this.
1. My parents tried their damndest to get me into an ITT tech program in the 90s and I refused because I could see the technology was grossly out of date even then.
2. My nephew just graduated as a machinist from a two year program in a Tennessee vocational school. In those two years he never once operated a CNC machine, a basic task for 95%+ of factory machine work.
3. In 2010 I had the pleasure of working in the same building as an
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as for 1? really or that they where more up to date then some non trade schools?
Not to mention: quality (Score:5, Informative)
Last I read, some "colleges" were changing their freshman math courses to cover high-school level math. Basically offering remedial education at insane prices. I'm in Europe, and have pretty extensive experience in three countries. Here's my take:
US high schoolers need to be pretty good, to make it in college here. Not only because of the awful state of US education, but because European college-track high school generally includes what the US would consider to be AP courses. That means that the colleges here skip most of the freshman-level general ed courses, because that knowledge is assumed.
There is the barrier of moving to a foreign country, figuring out how things work, finding a place to live (we generally don't have dorms), etc.. However, the colleges here have people to help. That's less of an obstacle than it seems.
Many countries have at least some English-speaking degree programs, even if English is not the local language. So even language need not be a huge barrier. Do plan to learn the local language, though, in order to really enjoy living there.
Finally, there is a lot less grade inflation. The equivalent of an "A" is reserved for really good students. B's and C's are common, and teachers will happily fail people who deserve it. Don't be shocked (and don't let your parents be shocked), when you don't get straight A's.
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Getting straight A's (or 100%, or 10/10, or whatever the local equivalent is) at most European universities, is pretty much impossible.
If 50% of people get straight A's then that means your education is too easy, and you failed at actually increasing the education of whoever you're teaching.
It's almost funny when someone from the US and someone from the EU try to compare grades, because the US people invariably think the EU people are dummies :D
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Last I read, some "colleges" were changing their freshman math courses to cover high-school level math. Basically offering remedial education at insane prices.
These courses exist and have always existed. I personally had to take a remedial math and remedial physics course at university which crammed 2 years of high-school in to 6 months as I didn't meet the minimum requirements (in terms of specific classes taken in school) to start an engineering degree, a from which I graduated with Honours.
Canada May Be A Better Option (Score:2)
US high schoolers need to be pretty good, to make it in college here.
Exactly - the US education system starts 1-2 years later than European ones and, particularly for the UK where there is specialization in the last couple of years at school, US students will be well below where they need to be for university. From that point of view Canada would be a much better fit. School starts only ~1 year earlier than the US but Canadians leave school at 17, not 18, so they are more-or-less equivalent at the university intake level.
UK university (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a kid in college in the UK. A few things I liked about the process
He's having a great time, the course is good and the activities are good. All around the "university experience" I'd hoped for for him
It can be only 3 years to get a bachelors and that seems to be accepted as a 4-year degree in the US (at least for the purpose of entering law school here). UK students have a tough time toward the end of high school and seem to get some of the 101 level work out of the way at that time, this will make it harder for some US students, they won't be able to catch up on AP classes in college
The price was affordable, accommodation in particular was good value.
Even without haggling the price was fixed for the duration of the course
The pound has tanked, this saved thousands
As a student he qualifies for government healthcare
Easy access to Europe for sightseeing trips, cheap flights to odd destinations
This will work out great. (Score:5, Interesting)
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American students will go to the EU, learn how much better life could be, and stay there.
FTFY. It's called a brain drain.
Try Aalborg University, Denmark for engineering (Score:3)
If anyone out there is considering a degree abroad and it's engineering, let me suggest Aalborg University [en.aau.dk].
You do one project per semester in a small team (max 7 people). Those people are also your team mates when going to lectures and doing lecture work. Lectures are only a minor part though, most of the time is set aside for the project, which is one your team decides do to. Basically it's like doing 10 half-year Master's theses, with the two last projects being the actual Master's thesis. It's rewarding work, you learn to cooperate (the first two semesters have courses covering this) and you have people that look out for you.
I think in 2019 the engineering department at Aalborg University was ranked 4th place, just below Stanford and MIT and above Cambridge - whatever those rankings are worth.
It looks like tuition is around 7000 USD/semester for people outside EU.
Check out Canadian colleges, too (Score:3)
Those contemplating college tuitions in the near future should also look at Canadian colleges. No language problem (aside from adding "eh" to every sentence ;^), no greater distance than you can get within the USA.
Some years ago a neighbor's child went to the private McGill University in Montreal at lower tuition than in-state tuition at U Illinois. Haven't checked this year's tuition, but I surely would if my kids weren't already done with higher education.
Insider Perspective (Score:2)
I've been at a major state university for 22 years and I'm constantly annoyed by the ongoing misunderstanding of the various numbers and statistics perpetuated in the media. There is some nuance.
While top US schools like Harvard and Stanford have acceptance rates in the low single digits, about 14% of students get into Oxford and 41% get into the University of Saint Andrews
Acceptance rate is a function of applications, the total number of student seats, and the expected "melt" of those who are offered admis
5 years (Score:3)
A degree in the EU is typically 5 years. Degrees in 3 years are vocational only. It is true in many European countries you get a "bachelor degree" after the first three years of your 5 years degree but it is generally unusable on the job market. You mileage may vary a lot.
Grading depends a lot on the country culture. I recall an Italian student from a reputed engineering school complaining about getting mediocre grades during his exchange year in Belgium. From Cum Laude to just passing.
Also some specific EU institutions have very demanding entrance exams or contests. For example French top engineering schools. They are free but very hard to get into. Some taking a bit less than the top one percent of applicants to their entrance contest. And of course the courses are in French. But i doubt it is the kind of schools Americans want to get into.
Re:Fair trade (Score:5, Insightful)
We de facto subsidize their lack of military spending, they educate our youth.
The liberal media informs me that the French of all people don't have a wokeness problem in their universities anywhere as bad as we have it here.
Maybe our youth will actually learn something.
Maybe you do have a wokeness problem in the US, or .... maybe .... when you are to the right of Mussolini everybody to the left of you looks communist, socialist, muslim, environmental terrorist, Antifa, and woke.
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These fascist crybabies always go on about liberals corrupting our youth with immorality, invasion of immigrants, unfair elections, and secret plans to overthrow the nation by their weak yet strong liberal opponents. It's always the same playbook, for 100's of years. These guys don't learn and are barely able to adapt, evolution would have flushed them down the toilet if we weren't propping things up.
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The US Federal Government guarantees student loans which means a 18 year old kid can take on hundreds of thousands of debt without any regard for whether they can pay it back.
But wait, it gets better.
You can not discharge student loan debt in the US in bankruptcy as you can with every other type of debt. You're only let off the hook if you become severely disabled.
The end result is a grossly distorted market
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They're not post-fascists, they're just fascists. You could call them neofascists just to differentiate between them and the originals, though. It's kind of like the joke about what do you call someone these days who claims to be a Nazi, hangs out with Nazis, etc, which is funnier in the original, but the answer is just Nazi.
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Fascists, please. Not Nazis. The difference is subtle but important. Because I don't want these bastards to get off the hook by crying "but look, we never burned the Jews, so we're not bad!"
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I don't know what you mean by "most socialist" but the EU is a market economy. It is not what a socialist would call a socialist state. Of course many EU countries have high levels of taxation, public spending and welfare but that doesn't make them socialist !
Re: Fair trade (Score:3)
The core of socialism is workers owning the means of production, hence if you are unable to see the difference then you are not capable of having an informed opinion on this topic.
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In that case, you might want to try going to Italy, the post-fascists just won the election there.
I think you'll find that a garden variety Fascist just won the Italian elections. There is nothing post-fascist about that woman.
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The think you're missing is that gravity would, in fact, be racist if it exclusively pulled down black people. That's the literal definition of racism.
Your best example of why people who see racism are wrong is something that is a clear example of racism.
Re: Fair trade (Score:3)
Hmm... That's what affirmative action does to Asian people, so why isn't that racist?
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Conversely, if you're of the opinion that gravity is racist because it pulls the black man down ...
That is an asinine analogy, gravity pulls everybody down equally ... [snipped a bunch of other asinine crap that Gonwin'ed the thread].
Re: Fair trade (Score:2)
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Gravity pulls everything down. So it's not racist.
The cops shoot just about anyone who tries to steal their guns and charges at them. But they are racist.
Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's rain.
US cops will happily empty a couple of magazines into you for walking in your own back yard carrying a cellphone. That is orders of magnitude more likely to happen to you if you are black.
Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's rain.
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It got modded Funny, though :) So that's alright.
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We de facto subsidize their lack of military spending, they educate our youth.
But what happens when our ornate hexagonal crystals of dihydrogen monoxide discover that the Sorbonne doesn't have a crisis center?
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Your weapons subsidize your cheap gas.
American gas and oil are produced domestically.
The biggest outside supplier is Canada.
Weapons have little to do with it.
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Sure do wish we'd produce more of it!
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And it's Canada by a large margin, he's some 2021 numbers I dug up:
Canada: US$80 billion (57.8% of total US imported crude oil)
Mexico: $13.2 billion (9.6%)
Saudi Arabia: $9 billion (6.5%)
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I'm sincerely not clear on your point, but I've probably made clear which interpretation I'd consider valid.