Indonesia's New Criminal Code Bans Online Insults of the President (restofworld.org) 74
An anonymous reader shares a report: On December 6, Indonesia's parliament passed a criminal code that drew wide criticism for criminalizing premarital sex and cohabitation outside marriage, among other practices. But the code, known as KUHP, also heavily extends the government's reach over online speech -- not just in traditional media outlets, but on social media platforms.
The bill sets out new or strengthened controls on a wide array of actions, from spreading fake news and Marxist-Leninist ideology to insulting the president. These provisions come on the heels of new regulations on tech companies, aimed at enforcing "takedowns" of content targeted by the Indonesian government. Rest of World spoke to activists, online publishers, and social media users, who feared that by the time the bill goes into full effect in 2025, critical commentary would come with harsh consequences -- or that the threat of repercussion would prevent the expression of anything remotely critical at all.
The bill sets out new or strengthened controls on a wide array of actions, from spreading fake news and Marxist-Leninist ideology to insulting the president. These provisions come on the heels of new regulations on tech companies, aimed at enforcing "takedowns" of content targeted by the Indonesian government. Rest of World spoke to activists, online publishers, and social media users, who feared that by the time the bill goes into full effect in 2025, critical commentary would come with harsh consequences -- or that the threat of repercussion would prevent the expression of anything remotely critical at all.
Really? (Score:5, Funny)
So let me be first to lèse-majesté the idiot.
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People can just resort to implication, maybe using quotes -- like "smart", "wonderful", "greatest", "stable genius" ... :-)
[ No, really, it's a "compliment". ]
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People can just resort to implication, maybe using quotes -- like "smart", "wonderful", "greatest", "stable genius" ... :-)
[ No, really, it's a "compliment". ]
Yeah, go ahead and try that in a truly totalitarian country. It's quite easy being such a uhhh.... "clever" couch warrior while living safe in a western country.
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People can just resort to implication, maybe using quotes -- like "smart", "wonderful", "greatest", "stable genius" ... :-)
[ No, really, it's a "compliment". ]
Yeah, go ahead and try that in a truly totalitarian country. It's quite easy being such a uhhh.... "clever" couch warrior while living safe in a western country.
This.
The article is a warning for people who travel to Indonesia, or more for those who don't like it not to travel to Indonesia.
I'm in the latter, I've never really wanted to visit Indonesia even when I lived close to it. I think the problem Indonesia will have is that they're not solely a Muslim country, large parts of it are majority Hindu or Buddhist and will take exception to some of the laws coming out of Jakarta (another one passed recently criminalises sex before marriage). Something tells me
Re: Really? (Score:1)
Re: Really? (Score:2)
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You don't have to in many places. I believe that if it's legal, then it's your civic oblifation to insult your political leaders. This keeps them honest, or at least attempts to. When a leader objects to the insults and tries to make this illegal, it's a very good sign that the leader deserves the insults. Pre-emptive!
Streisand effect (Score:2)
Indonesia to go off line in ? (Score:2)
Indonesia to go off line in ?
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What if you make a speech or write a screed in meatspace, and someone else posts it online? What if the poster is outside Indonesian jurisdiction?
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Anything in there about Thoughtcrime?
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we have the jail for life with no trail part of it.
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Re:Indonesia to go off line in ? (Score:5, Informative)
People like the Balinese (for example) assumed they would get their independence back, but instead were absorbed into a Javanese empire.
As long as the rulers of Indonesia were reliably anti-communist they kept American support, but if they made eyes at the Soviet Union, they paid for it.
The result is a country held together by the threat of violence, and for the East Timorese or the Papuans actual violence. The East Timorese managed to get independence, but it took more than 20 years and a fairly brutal insurrection to manage it.
Long story short, they don't care about you reminding us about how brutal the government of Indonesia is, this is to keep their own population in line.
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Cowards (Score:2)
Most people are stupid and cowards. They rarely if ever revolt against a strong oppressive force. They revolt against people who give them the freedom to revolt. Why have there been no threats against the president of North Korea? Nobody has been able to organize opposition to him as far as I know. Not that he doesnt live in some paranoia of that.
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Revolt? At least one in three will join into any intractractable, easy to follow power that seems to be dominant in a society. It's a basic human survival instinct used most often by the least capable people that has held back human progress since the dawn of civilization.
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Indonesia just attracted attention unnecessarily. Instread they could have made it socially acceptable to call supporters of their president's opponent "fascists" and "racists" at no risk to those throwing such labels.
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If MAGA hats don't like being called fascists and racists, they should stop doing such a convincing impression of fascists and racists.
Re: Cowards (Score:1, Troll)
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There were a couple MAGAs caught burning stuff down, but in general there wasn't an organized group responsible, it was more discontented people taking advantage of the moment.
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"Show me one major democrats who urged an armed mob to go to the capitol to stop the validation of an election without any evidence of the supposedly massive vote fraud."
You just had to make that comically specfic.
As I allued to in a comment below, you are dealing with actual fascists if fighting them gets you in trouble in one way or another. If you are doing it from the perfect safety of the mob, the "fascist" -- the intolerant one -- is you.
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Whether someone is fascist or racist is determined by near consensus, not by a minority -- or one man's -- opinion.
The counter is true: the person who puts other people at risk by accusing them of being rascists and fascist at NO RISK to himself shows what he is made of. It is the skin in the game principle: if you don't take risk for your opinion, you are nothing.
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> Most people are stupid and cowards. They rarely if ever revolt against a strong oppressive force.
Poor people barely surviving have to focus on immediate needs. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Protesting can get them AND their families jailed or killed or banned from working and buying food. They generally only do it if enough others are doing it to provide group protection by sheer force.
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When government and politicians can claim to represent God, you get in trouble twice
Don't like a policy? You're a heathen rebelling against God! The Morality Police will come after you!
And don't even think about thinking freely... or being an *GASP* ATHEIST *GASP*
You do know Indonesia is a deeply Muslim-majority society, right? This stuff passed with overwhelming support because Indonesians want it to. I don't know about the criticizing the President part, but the morality laws are all very much in line with Indonesian culture. There is no difference between religious and government authority in Islam, because Muslims say both come from God. In other words, they want theocracy, thanks. As for atheism, it's considered an apostasy punishable by death in Islam. So, don
Re: Theocracy Incoming (Score:2)
So thatâ(TM)s the same as Christianity, right, all powers of the government flow from God.
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1. Muslims do some stupid shit
2. "See? Religion is teh EVIL"
3. Goes on shitposting hate against Christianity
Re: Theocracy Incoming (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, brainwashed "Christians" will claim this, but the Founding Fathers said otherwise and that is how we live.
It's always amusing to hear "originalists" talk about the Constiution when it's clear they never read a single word of the debate creating the Constitution or its ratification. I'm waiting for the day Thomas goes full moron and makes some statement in a case about the government funding churches. I would hope someone brings up Madison's own words when he vehemently vetoed several bills trying to accomplish this same point stating he vetoed the bills because they violate the First Amendment's separation of church and State.
I would love to hear his excuse for why Madison didn't mean what he said.
Re: Theocracy Incoming (Score:4, Insightful)
So thatÃ(TM)s the same as Christianity, right, all powers of the government flow from God.
Yes, brainwashed "Christians" will claim this, but the Founding Fathers said otherwise and that is how we live.
It's always amusing to hear "originalists" talk about the Constiution when it's clear they never read a single word of the debate creating the Constitution or its ratification. I'm waiting for the day Thomas goes full moron and makes some statement in a case about the government funding churches. I would hope someone brings up Madison's own words when he vehemently vetoed several bills trying to accomplish this same point stating he vetoed the bills because they violate the First Amendment's separation of church and State.
I would love to hear his excuse for why Madison didn't mean what he said.
Well, he'd probably point out that Madison himself would tell you how wrong you are.
Apparently, you don't know the intent of the Founders half as well as you think you do, because their own actions and practices dispute your interpretations of their ideals.
Madison... and Jefferson, for that matter... supported and attended tax-funded church services in the Capitol Building itself [loc.gov]:
It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a "crowded audience." Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers.
Jefferson's actions may seem surprising because his attitude toward the relation between religion and government is usually thought to have been embodied in his recommendation that there exist "a wall of separation between church and state." In that statement, Jefferson was apparently declaring his opposition, as Madison had done in introducing the Bill of Rights, to a "national" religion. In attending church services on public property, Jefferson and Madison consciously and deliberately were offering symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government.
The Founders never, ever wanted to ban Christianity from being practiced on public grounds or institutions. This is a fairly modern piece of revisionist dishonesty, dating to the 1960's. Jefferson simply didn't want an official state church, such as had existed in Europe and in some of the American colonies. Madison's position was the same. While Jefferson himself was a skeptic of Christianity, he repeatedly said that he thought, on balance, that Christianity was good for the health of the American body politic, and that society will ill-function without strong religious sentiment amongst the populace. Both he, Madison, and Franklin are on record as saying that they didn't believe society could function or be governed without a sense of religious morality and practice amongst the populace. And to cap it off, here are the words of the biggest founding father of all:
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of
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1) That was because there was no church in the area to go to.
2) They were acting as private citizens, not govenrment officials
3) Taxpayer money was not used for this purpose.
Now go back to what I said and read it again. Madison explicitly cited the First Amendment separation of Church and State as the reason he vetoed several bills which wanted to use taxpayer money to
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It wasn't always this deeply muslim. But yes, islam is well on its way taking over.
The fun thing is that this law updates, well, replaces, laws that have been in force "since colonial times". As in, this is a regression from what the ebil ebil white man legislated. The westerners protesting this tend to be the same people who, nowadays, like to "examine colonial history" and make the ebil ebil white man apologize and shit.
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You do know Indonesia is a deeply Muslim-majority society,
An there is a majority of the problem. Islam is a truly disgusting religion. Anyone that reads their "holy" books from the outside of the religion will realize how evil this religion is.
An if you are rolling your eyes thinking Christianity is no better. Well you are wrong, but not by much. The big three abrahamic religions, islam, christanigy, and judaism are responsible for most of the problems of the world. But Islam takes the cake. The other two have had some reform and modernized. But islam is
Re: Theocracy Incoming (Score:2)
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An if you are rolling your eyes thinking Christianity is no better. Well you are wrong, but not by much. The big three abrahamic religions, islam, christanigy, and judaism are responsible for most of the problems of the world. But Islam takes the cake. The other two have had some reform and modernized. But islam is still stuck in the dark ages. It is a barbaric, backwards, superstition and the sooner it becomes irrelevant the better.
The real problem with Islam is praying five times a day. People become far too emotionally invested in their fairy tales.
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Well, if you don't count the Christians in Indonesia. Periodically in the past, the gov. there has gone on pogroms to kill them. Yep, they are deeply religious my ass.
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There's a difference between the majority of people willing to go along with what the party in power wants versus the majority of the people electing a government and demanding that they do certain things. In this case, the Indonesian government is doing what it wants here, partly to keep some of the crowd happy, rather than doing what the people have asked them to do. For all the "overwhelming" support, there is also overwhelming objections to many of the provisions even from within the muslim community.
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... or being an *GASP* ATHEIST *GASP*
There is something worse than being an Atheist. You could become an Apostate!!
That includes Christians who renounce their religion, so better check if your parents had you baptized.
Here we go... (Score:5, Insightful)
Joko Widodo is an ugly son of a bitch. He loves the cockmeat sandwich, although he has a super tiny penis himself.
There's your insult, Indonesia, come and get me!
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How does one pronounce the president of Indonesia's name? Best I've come up with is: Joke-o Wee Doodoo.
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Yay!! Full daylight banning!! (Score:2, Flamebait)
The bill sets out new or strengthened controls on a wide array of actions, from spreading fake news and Marxist-Leninist ideology to insulting the president. These provisions come on the heels of new regulations on tech companies, aimed at enforcing "takedowns" of content targeted by the Indonesian government. Rest of World spoke to activists, online publishers, and social media users, who feared that by the time the bill goes into full effect in 2025, critical commentary would come with harsh consequences -- or that the threat of repercussion would prevent the expression of anything remotely critical at all.
Sounds like every Trumpkins' wet dream.
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I don't think we need to bring believing in the former alleged president (TDS) into this. Now go back your altar to the moron and light another candle for him.
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Sounds like every Trumpkins' wet dream.
Hello. My name is freischutz and i'm a fucking moron. You want to know why I'm a fucking moron? Because after 2 years I still have trump derangement syndrome. Yes i do. Here is how I know i have trump derangment syndrome? because after 2 years of trump no longer being my president I still dream about him. I talk about trump and i blame all my problems on trump. trump lives rent free in my head. instead of getting on with my life i must make comments in posts that have nothing to do with trump to remind people how much of a moron i am. don't be like me. don't let tds ruin your life. just remember trump is no longer a problem if you don't let him be a problem.
Hmm... I only see one case of TDS here, and it ain't the GP...
Re:Yay!! Full daylight banning!! (Score:4, Insightful)
Just remember trump is no longer a problem if you don't let him be a problem.
Hello, I'm an anonymous coward and I'm a fucking moron. You want to know why I'm a fucking moron? Because I'm clueless about what has been happening in the US. I spend time berating freischutz and accusing him of "Trump Derangement Syndrome", but my whole foundation of this accusation is that I believe that, after the 2020 election, the former president accepted his defeat, walked off the stage silently and hasn't been heard from again except maybe to show us how he turned into a painter or something like a previous Bush did.
I'm ignorant of the fact that not only did Trump incite an insurrection after losing the election and there are still ongoing investigations, ongoing criminal trials, guilty folks sitting in jail and a House committee that is about to indict his former associates (and they have Trump in their cross-hairs).
I'm also ignorant of the role Trump tried to play in the midterms, how he still is trying to control the messaging and, oh yeah, he recently announced that he is running for President again.
So, because I'm ignorant of all of this current Trump hoopla, I'm a fucking moron trying to claim that Trump is no longer a problem, that he's only a problem if we let him be a problem.
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Trump's also running - again
Well we know exactly where you stopped reading the parent's post.
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Sounds like every Trumpkins' wet dream.
Hello. My name is freischutz and i'm a fucking moron. You want to know why I'm a fucking moron? Because after 2 years I still have trump derangement syndrome. Yes i do. Here is how I know i have trump derangment syndrome? because after 2 years of trump no longer being my president I still dream about him. I talk about trump and i blame all my problems on trump. trump lives rent free in my head. instead of getting on with my life i must make comments in posts that have nothing to do with trump to remind people how much of a moron i am. don't be like me. don't let tds ruin your life. just remember trump is no longer a problem if you don't let him be a problem.
Judging by that hysterical tantrum you just threw I'm apparently living rent free in your head which I find hilariously funny. Furthermore, why would you be throwing that hysterical tantrum if my criticism of Trump isn't touching a nerve? Maybe because you'd love to have a law like the one Indonesians just passed to rob me of my freedom of speech and silence my mockery of your dear beloved leader? ... and we both know that Trump will seek inspiration in this Indonesian law if he succeeds in winning the pres
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Nothing new here. (Score:2)
Re:Nothing new here. (Score:4, Insightful)
The reason for the proliferating cancer is because religious nutjobs have been gaining political power. Erdogan, the Whore of Turkey, is right up there along with the Eastern Orthodox Church in Russia, the nucklehead Jewish right wingnuts in Israel, the Christian Church of White Power in the U.S., etc. Never let religions near your government, they destroy everything they touch.
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What we need is more people reading the Bible. Nothing will make you an atheist faster than reading the Bible. An if the world needs anything, it's more atheists.
My apologies to Penn and Teller.
Same in Italy, not just online. (Score:1)
Nothing new for my fellow Italians. As per Art. 248 of the Italian Penal Code you can be jailed from 1 to 5 years if you offend our president. And to be honest there would be a lot to say about some of our presidents...
Posting tn the public interest (Score:2)
Joko Widodo is an undignified poopy-head.
On the Internet? (Score:2)
Lessee, we've got Julian Assange, for publishing classified information, even tho that is protected by the 1st Amendment, and using the internet to do it from a position entirely outside of US jurisdiction.
So, is that how internet law works?
It should then, with Indonesia's crackdown on Marxist / Leninist advocacy, be possible to arrest / extradite / prosecute a good percentage of the Democrats in this country. Is there a gofundme for that? I want in...
Freedom of speech (Score:2)
Seriously, in some countries it is illegal to insult a _foreign_ head of state. Because your own citizens in a foreign country could get into trouble because someone safely at home insults the foreign country's head of state or king or whatever, and you don't want that.
Oh, so... (Score:2)
Oh, so like what the FBI was working to implement at Twitter?