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The Strange and Awful Path of Productivity in the US Construction Sector (uchicago.edu) 149

Despite aggregate productivity for the US economy having doubled over the past 50 years, the country's construction sector has diverged considerably, trending downward throughout that period. And this is no slight decrease. Raw BEA data suggest that the value added per worker in the construction sector was about 40 percent lower in 2020 than in 1970. From a report: How can a sector like construction, with average value-added of 4.3 percent of GDP between 1950 and 2020, experience such a precipitous decline in productivity relative to the rest of the economy? To answer this question, researchers have focused on issues relating to data measurement, hypothesizing that measurement errors largely explain this phenomenon. This new research updates some of those efforts and, importantly, extends them to investigate other hypotheses to find the following:

1. Using measures of physical productivity in housing construction (i.e., number of houses or total square footage built per employee), the authors confirm that productivity is indeed falling or, at best, stagnant over multiple decades. Importantly, these facts are not explained by the incidence of price measurement problems.
2. Instead of data error, the authors investigate two other possible explanations. First, they find that the construction sector's ability to transform intermediate goods into finished products has deteriorated.
3. And second, the authors describe the curious fact that producers located in more-productive areas do not grow at expected rates. Indeed, rather than construction inputs flowing to areas where they are more productive, the activity share of these areas either stagnates or even falls. The authors suggest that this problem with allocative efficiency may accentuate the aggregate productivity problem for the industry.

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The Strange and Awful Path of Productivity in the US Construction Sector

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  • > Raw BEA data suggest that the value added per worker in the construction sector was about 40 percent lower in 2020 than in 1970.

    Why would they need to be productive? It's a localized market and fools are willing to throw money at real estate. There is no incentive.
    Youtube creators and Uber drivers -- glut of workers. They can let go of anyone at any time.
    Construction workers -- can't find enough and they're begging the current ones to stay. Doesn't sound like they can let go of even unproductive wo

    • Why would they need to be productive? It's a localized market and fools are willing to throw money at real estate. There is no incentive.

      Being a home owner in the middle of a kitchen remodel, I don't believe you. I am in fact quite cost conscious. The contractors bidding work have a ton of incentive to cut costs because if they don't, the other company will.

      Every homeowner and buyer I know if is manically fixated on paying less if they can. Maybe Bill Gates wants his mansion to be expensive for bragging rights but that's a rare exception.

      • by sinij ( 911942 )

        Every homeowner and buyer I know if is manically fixated on paying less if they can.

        While true, this would only explain drop in quality, but not in productivity.

        • "Productivity" in the context in economic analisys is simply cost/sale divided by workhours.

          • "Productivity" in the context in economic analisys is simply cost/sale divided by workhours.

            Exactly. Lower cost for the same hours is by definition lower productivity. Lower quality at lower cost for same hours, gee, I don't know how you classify that. Lower quality, lower cost, fewer hours, might be a wash. It's complicated.

            There's also the difference between price and value. The value of my new kitchen cabinets is greater (to me) than the price I paid. Oddly enough, the value is lower to the carpenter than the income he gets. Ain't the economics of free exchange fun? Which value should one use t

        • Re:Seems obvious (Score:5, Informative)

          by snowshovelboy ( 242280 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @05:02PM (#63233642)

          Speaking from experience with my own remodels, the quality drop is so extreme for some of them that rework is required. Multiple reworks, sometimes.

        • As someone who is also in the middle of a kitchen remodel and is fairly familiar with the trades involved, the lack of productivity is largely due to the fact that there are just not enough workers to do the work - skilled or not. And when that happens, things get done out of order - for example, my cabinets got put in the other day and I commented that I thought the electricians and plumbers would need to come in first - my GC agreed but the carpenter could come and do the job now or in a month so the othe
          • Re:Seems obvious (Score:4, Interesting)

            by smoot123 ( 1027084 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @06:09PM (#63233838)

            As someone who is also in the middle of a kitchen remodel and is fairly familiar with the trades involved, the lack of productivity is largely due to the fact that there are just not enough workers to do the work - skilled or not. And when that happens, things get done out of order - for example, my cabinets got put in the other day and I commented that I thought the electricians and plumbers would need to come in first - my GC agreed but the carpenter could come and do the job now or in a month

            Sorry to hear that. TBH, sounds like you should fire the general. That's their job, coordinating the subs to minimize the critical path.

            We're our own general contractor. Coordinating schedules is a royal pain in the a$$. Just getting people to give us a bid is ridiculously hard. It's to the point where we wonder if we've been black balled at some double-secret contractor confab.

            I'm also wondering where smoot123 is from because contractors in my area (midwest) can name their price because of how busy they are.

            San Francisco bay area. There's a lot of "take it or leave it" but there's also often a 2x difference between the low and high bids. With, I think, a corresponding difference in quality. Big differentiators also include whether someone has a licensed or not, is bonded or not, and would prefer to work for cash or not (and we all pretend to not realize that's a way to avoid reporting income).

            • Being your own GC in the Bay Area in the current market? I'm surprised you get any bids at all. Contractors have more work than they can handle. I'm surprised they'd even give you the time of day. Best to spend their efforts on real GCs, who they can count on for future work.

      • Could have fooled me there. I pay reputable contractors with years of experience to do the work which may cost more.

        You get what you pay for.

      • In my area, Metro Phoenix, the past two years have been heated in construction, be it renovation or new builds. For about a year you could hardly get a remodel started, the contractors were out building new and doing very high-priced jobs, leaving the middle unable to find anyone to do work. This has only recently loosened up in the past 6 months or so. This is all downstream of home sales, I think, and those are being muted by realistic interest rates and a perceived disconnect between valuations and offer

        • ...the plans seem to be 0. lots of prep, 1. Furious activity, 2. Long pauses as something unseen happens, 3. Furious activity, and finally 4. Longer periods of low intensity work.

          Thing is, that shouldn't affect a productivity computation. The idle times don't factor into it because productivity isn't measured by calendar time, it's by hours worked.

          What might affect a productivity measurement, if naively done, is you need to spend twice as long compacting the gravel under the road as you used to. If you don't account for the improved quality of the road, it will seem like your productivity went down. That's what I'd be concerned TFA is running afoul of.

          Did anyone read TFA to see if t

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by cayenne8 ( 626475 )
      Well, and another problem is...illegal migrant workers have caused wages to drop in the market, so far that skilling citizen workers are dropping out of the industry and not willing to go back.
      • We have a winner!

      • Re:Seems obvious (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Berkyjay ( 1225604 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @04:26PM (#63233486)

        Yup! Had some roofing work done in California and the workers were migrants. They did a terrible job because they didn't seem to know what they were doing. Then one day they just stopped showing up. The GC also ghosted me but fortunately payment wasn't delivered yet. But I was left with an unfinished roof. So then I decided to be a lot more discerning in who I hired. But I found it impossible to find a GC with an english speaking crew with experience. Fortunately the next GC had a decent crew but they still were all migrants.

        From what I can tell there are no formal processes anymore for the education of construction workers. There used to be a tradesman process of apprentice, journeyman, master. But as it stands now, it's whoever can swing a hammer gets thrown out there to do jobs.

        • Re:Seems obvious (Score:4, Insightful)

          by bferrell ( 253291 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @04:30PM (#63233498) Homepage Journal

          That's because "everyone MUST go to college" because getting dirty is beneath us all... Besides such jobs are "soul sucking" and "non-impactful"!

          • I can see the truth of that in California. But I did convince a nephew of mine back in Pennsylvania to go into the trades. He's an apprentice welder now and making very good money doing it.

            • My son in law is a welder (non-union too) and he makes more than I do

              • Re:Seems obvious (Score:4, Insightful)

                by Berkyjay ( 1225604 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @04:53PM (#63233604)

                Yup. As a nation we should really be pushing trades as an alternative to college. Even incentivizing it.

                • Re: (Score:2, Offtopic)

                  by pz ( 113803 )

                  That's exactly what Mike Rowe has been trying to do with his shows Dirty Jobs, and Somebody's Gotta Do It, and then his foundation.

                  And mad props to him to suggest that we should each be trained according to our individual talents.

          • by jbengt ( 874751 )

            From what I can tell there are no formal processes anymore for the education of construction workers. There used to be a tradesman process of apprentice, journeyman, master.

            That's because "everyone MUST go to college" because getting dirty is beneath us all...

            More likely because anti-union sentiment has led to fewer union contractors and so fewer union apprenticeships, etc.
            Which doesn't stop me from complaining about some of the union workers and union work rules that may also be contributing to stagnant

          • Re:Seems obvious (Score:5, Insightful)

            by rea1l1 ( 903073 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @04:46PM (#63233570) Journal

            Young people have grown up watching their disabled parents struggle with back injuries and various job site exposure diseases while being financially left to rot. They want a white collared job, or anything that won't lead to certain poor health, especially since our medical and insurance industry is a complete joke.

          • Not really. A roofer doesn't get paid much. It's not because it's "non-impactful" or dirty. It's because the pay is low.

      • Don't blame the immigrants. Wages in my area have been going up for construction workers, and even with "illegal immigrants taking people's jobs (jobs that those people didn't want in the first place, cause everyone wants to be an influencer now) they can't keep up with the demand. If anything, blame all the big companies hoarding real estate. Reducing availability makes them more money. This is just a fabricated crisis
    • by hey! ( 33014 )

      In some areas there is money laundering to be considered. Cocaine was a big factor in South Florida real estate development in the 80s and 90s and Russian oligarch money in New York in the 90s and 00s. You don't have to be efficient in building the house, because it's almost beside the point. The point is to take your dirty money and pass it through to a number of legitimate businesses.

    • If that were true, why wouldnâ(TM)t contractors want people to work faster and be more productive, so they can pay less hours and still collect massive fees.

      Something doesnâ(TM)t add up in your collectivist feverdreams.

      The primary reason people are less productive in construction is because massive rules and regulations. Some for the better, most make no sense. Iâ(TM)ve been involved in construction projects and it always gets bottlenecked when the building inspectors and OSHA and the fire ma

  • by hdyoung ( 5182939 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @02:32PM (#63233096)
    lift so many 2x4s in a single day, before the materials in their joints start to fail. No "mind over matter" or "tough it out". Cartilege and tendons can only take so much. Once you exceed the limit, no amount of prayer is gonna keep that joint working.

    Those physical limits haven't changed much since we evolved from apes, and manual labor people have been working at the limits of their bodies since before the development of agriculture.

    So, no surprise that productivity is flat in the construction sector. Until we innovate/automate construction, it'll stay that way.
    • by JoshuaZ ( 1134087 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @02:35PM (#63233110) Homepage
      This doesn't explain anything. First, productivity has gone down in the sector by many metrics. Second, this is even as productivity has stayed constant or gone up in much of Europe.
      • We have been relentlessly pursuing illegal immigrants since Obama took office. We've also been making them feel extremely unwelcome. Furthermore Mexico and Canada have both legalized weed and many US states have too. That's taking a big bite out of the drug war and cartels and led to increased stability in Mexico and South America. Also they've kind of gotten wise to the American cia's tricks and we haven't had much luck destabilizing and overthrowing their governments and installing our preferred dictators
        • by jbengt ( 874751 )

          We have been relentlessly pursuing illegal immigrants since Obama took office.

          I'm not sure who you mean by "we", but many employers, especially in the construction industry and in agriculture, have been relentlessly pursuing illegal immigrants since well before Obama. Also, under Obama, more illegals were deported than under previous administrations.

      • by MeNeXT ( 200840 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @04:02PM (#63233390)

        Look at the metrics listed. Number of houses or total square footage built per employee. Going back a few years the building codes were simpler. Electrical, plumbing, insulation, HVAC, etc... have all gotten more complex. If you look at housing from the 30's and 40's, the electrical was connected together in one junction box and you had 2 to 4 fuses in your fuse box and you were lucky if it was grounded. Current housing has a panel of 48 fuses and GFI breakers and color coded wire for voltage/amperage/usage and it's all grounded. In the 30/40's the 2x4's were not evenly spaced and the floors were build with 2x10 or 2x12. Today the 2x4's are evenly spaced and the floors use less expensive raw material made of 2by2 with cross 2by2. Older houses with 2 to 3 bedrooms had only one washroom. Older housing had no air exchangers. What we gained in productivity we lost due to complexity.

        Today's houses are considerably more comfortable than in the past. A lot more goes into building a home today than in the past. If you use energy as a metric today's homes consume 1/10 of homes built in the 60/70's and probably 1/30 of those built in the 30/40's. My current home is twice the size of my first home and I spend less on energy than I did 30 years ago in my first home. And I haven't adjusted the cost to inflation yet.

        • by Strauss ( 123071 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @04:41PM (#63233540)

          The metric indeed.... number of houses or total quare footage built per employee.

          One of the other changes over the last ~50 years? Death of the generalist construction worker. It takes several people to build a house, sure; but a great deal more people when each one employee has only one role - Framer, Roofer, electrician, drywaller, taper, mudder (yup, 3 people/roles for the drywall alone!), plumber, finish carpenter, window installer, painter, masonry, soffit/faschia installer... the list undoubtedly goes on.

          A house might only have 2-5 people on site at a given time... but roll through over 40 different employees to finish the work.all the way from digging the foundation hole through final touchups.

          A different metric would be to look at the person-hours involved per sqft, as compared over the timeline. Is the work "more" efficient (less person-hours)? Or has the multiplication of required job roles increased the total person-hour count required? In the first case, we might have situations where individual tradespeople are underutilized. In the second, we could be dealing with true productivity stagnation or loss (the workers in question, on average, can't do as much) or we could be looking at impacts of complexity or regulation increasing the total workload, as others have pointed out in these threads.

          "Efficiency" is a funny number to work with, mathematically. Choosing what to measure efficiency against is almost more of an art than a science...

        • by jbengt ( 874751 )
          If I hadn't replied to a couple of posts above, I would mod you up.
    • by Zak3056 ( 69287 )

      Those physical limits haven't changed much since we evolved from apes

      Really? Something that you point out has been a constant pretty much since there have been people at all is your explanation as to why productivity in construction has fallen in the last half century?

    • 3D-printed homes level up with a 2-story house in Houston [npr.org]

      3D printing is taking home construction to new heights. In Houston, a giant printer is building what designers say is the first 3D-printed two-story house in the U.S.

      The machine has been pouring a concrete mix from a nozzle, one layer at a time, in hot weather and cold, alongside a sparse on-site workforce, to create a 4,000-square-foot home.

      ...

      "We are not trying to beat the clock," Zerbe said. "It's a case study. We're learning the capabilities of th

  • by JoshuaZ ( 1134087 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @02:32PM (#63233100) Homepage
    We have massively increased the amount of paperwork and regulatory burden to make new construction. Zoning and building codes are stricter, and getting to build things takes often massive amounts of bureaucracy. This piece is primarily about why the US has so much trouble building trains, but a lot of the issues apply to other forms of construction as well https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/why-cant-america-build-trains [substack.com]. And one similarly has things like a train stations unable to be fully used as train stations due to historic preservation issues, https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2022/11/13/union-station-dc-rail-renovation/ [washingtonpost.com]. And all of this combines badly with NIMBYism where they delay and prevent almost any new construction. That is most seriously an issue in California but it is a problem almost everywhere. The bottom line is that if we want to handle the lack of productive construction work we need less regulation. This doesn't mean that all regulation is bad, but the US has a massive set of construction regulations where simply put the vast majority of Europe (with the exception of the UK which has a similarly bad situation) dont.
    • I as thinking OHSA requirements, but that's part of regulatory burden too.
      • US OSHA requirements largely match those in Europe. For many OSHA requirements, the US is less restrictive than the equivalent regulations in much of Europe.
        • US OSHA requirements largely match those in Europe.

          Which leads to the question: Does Europe see the same pattern in productivity?

    • by Jarik C-Bol ( 894741 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @02:55PM (#63233190)
      Your point, combined with the commenter above, pointing out physical limitations that cannot be bypassed (the human body can only move so fast, and can only do so much physical labor in a given period) In my opinion, combine with two more factors:
      1: Much larger houses. The summary mentions two metrics for measuring productivity; houses built per worker, and square footage built per worker. Larger houses take more time, so they will skew the first metric. I’ve helped build houses that a single family home from the 70’s would fit in the living room.
      The second metric is related, these new much larger homes are *much* more complex, so in the time a crew could have built three 4000 square foot homes, they build one 10,000 square foot home. Less square footage, in fewer structures, over a longer period, due to the complex designs, complex regulations, and physical limitations. Many of these houses are difficult to build *with heavy equipment*. The way they are situated on lots limits access, requiring more complex rigging and setup to perform tasks, restrictions on when equipment can be used due to noise regulations, all slow down the process.
      2: just in time supply chain and custom ordered *everything* slow the process as well. With most ‘custom’ homes, there are no ‘home depot’ windows and doors that can be bought and taken to the job site that day; nothing is ‘in stock’ rather, it must be ordered, manufactured, delivered to the retailer, and delivered again to the job site. Delays and mistakes abound, there is an entire industry around re-selling ‘mistake’ cabinetry, windows, and doors that were either damaged in transit, or did not meet the customers specifications.. Contrast this to the 60’s and before where a great deal of windows, doors, and cabinetry was built onsite, by the builders, with raw materials.
      All these combine to produce fewer homes, more slowly.
      • by laird ( 2705 ) <lairdp@gm a i l.com> on Monday January 23, 2023 @03:15PM (#63233266) Journal

        I this is it - the US massively overbuilds high end housing, which cost a lot more to build, and underbuilds affordable housing, because the market is optimized for ROI not for producing houses efficiently, and they'd rather spend more time making a house that's 4x larger and sells for 4x as much, because it gets more money out of the single lot, which means that there's far more labor per house built and thus fewer houses produced for unit of labor, which is less output as measured by this productivity metric, but making the builder far more money per lot, which is what the builder cares about. A huge factor on top of that is that private equity firms have been distorting the market to buy up all the lower cost housing and taking it off the market as rentals, leaving only much more expensive housing, which they buy and flip at inflated prices. So, basically, the US massively underbuilds housing, making far too few houses that are far too large, because that's most profitable to the builders. In other countries they have more rational housing policies, and crank out many affordable houses instead of forcing people to either rent or buy far more house than they want, which yes, is wildly unproductive by any rational standards, but which makes investors and builders much more money. And what's more important - people being able to buy starter homes, or making investors richer?

        • I this is it - the US massively overbuilds high end housing, which cost a lot more to build, and underbuilds affordable housing, because the market is optimized for ROI not for producing houses efficiently, and they'd rather spend more time making a house that's 4x larger and sells for 4x as much, because it gets more money out of the single lot...

          They'd rather build a house that's 4x larger and sells for 8x as much or more. And what differentiates the high end house from the affordable house? Labor-intensive details. Crown molding, fancy textured wall paints, granite countertops, ceramic tiled walls in kitchens and bathrooms, ceramic tiled floors (not vinyl sheet), extra laundry rooms and accompanying plumbing, and the houses are so big they require multiple independent air conditioning and heating units and hot water heaters, which can double an

          • by djinn6 ( 1868030 )

            Textured walls are standard. Crown molding adds maybe a few hours total to the entire build. Countertops are the same labor regardless of material. Tiled walls and floors are more common in older buildings, especially the really tiny tiles.

            extra laundry rooms

            I don't know any SFH that has more than 1 laundry room. If you know an example of one, can you link to their Zillow page?

            the houses are so big they require multiple independent air conditioning and heating units and hot water heaters

            Now you're talking about mansions with detached units. Those are not being built in significant numbers.

      • by jhecht ( 143058 )
        House size and just-in-time production are excellent points. I'll add another two to the list: wasteful industry practices and sloppy construction: I watched workers tear down a small house across the street and pack the debris (including foundation) into three or four dumpsters. Then while building two new townhouses they filled seven dumpsters with construction waste, including new doors, packaging materials, scraps of wood. I was amazed by the amount of packaging. I have no idea how much of the rest was
    • This! For instance construction in the US picked up a new inspection following the "Chinese toxic drywall" debacle of 2004-2007: a sheet rock inspection. These rules were put in place by cities after the importers had already started self-monitoring. The inspection also occurs after the sheet rock is installed rather than before, so it is not just about the sheet rock but the installation methods too. Do we really need this "yet another" inspection that can pause construction for months?
    • Absolutely this. When you travel abroad you see how people open quirky and interesting little cafes and bars in all sorts of nooks and crannies. In the US the regulatory overhead of opening a spot to cook some burgers is immense. I was told once the all-in cost for installing commercial kitchen venting is like $10k a yard. It's why US cities are becoming dominated by chains.
    • Outside of public transportation. And it's hardly a stretch to figure out why there's a large increase in the regulatory burden for any public transportation projects. The price of automobiles is skyrocketing to the point where run of the mill workers can't really afford them anymore. This is creating a voting block that wants to see public transportation because cars are just out of reach for them.

      But there's a substantial and extremely powerful lobby that very much wants to make sure public transporta
    • I initially thought of this as a probable source of the issue. But think about automotive manufacturing. Over the same timeframe the regulations involving both the employees building the vehicles and the safety and performance rules on the product itself (air bags, crumple zones, ABS, head lights, emissions, the list goes on) are at least equal to that of housing construction.

      The paper really does a good job of covering the various issues. It's not just an easy out on 'mismeasurement' or 'NIMBY/OSHA' . I

  • by fortfive ( 1582005 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @02:36PM (#63233120)

    . . .quality and variability of housing have gone down, and there are so many more labor saving devices today. Both the uniformity (standardization) of materials, and tools like air and gunpowder powered nail guns, should mean a grand increase in worker productivity. I replumbed half a house in less than two days, including demo of all the old galvanized. The job was made super easy thanks to PEX and schedule 40. I can't speak to commercial construction. But residential, even with all the new code section, seems easier than ever.

    Perhaps the problem is permitting and inspection? Crews idle due to waiting?

  • All kidding aside, regulation of the construction industry has continued to get worse and worse over the years. This includes the aforementioned health and safety but also means other sources of red tape like permits, funding, government inspections, etc. All of this adds overhead and generates a log of drag on productivity and it has only gotten worse in recent years.

  • by BytePusher ( 209961 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @02:46PM (#63233160) Homepage

    In the construction industry workers are treated as expendable. There's a reason you see an increasing number of migratory workers(likely without work visas) doing construction work; It's dangerous and the pay doesn't match the risks. This highlights an interesting contradiction in US labor markets: Those who work the most, take the most actual(physical) risk, and work the longest hours, are oftentimes compensated the least.

    Anyone doing construction work with a Green Card or better will quickly seek to transition out of the industry towards work with better conditions. This leads to a situation where the workers who remain are the ones that can't find better work elsewhere.

    Want faster, more skilled, construction workers? Make the working conditions better. Treat the workers with respect. Wages will go up, but so will their productivity. Instead of 15 workers that need extremely high supervision and often times need to re-do the work several times anyway, you'll have 5 that get the job done correctly the first time and on time.

  • by cuda13579 ( 1060440 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @02:53PM (#63233182)

    I guess now I'm a "researcher" too...

  • by Walking The Walk ( 1003312 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @02:54PM (#63233188)

    I've seen a few factors contributing to a slower pace on new builds and renovations in the past few decades. Others have already posted about job satisfaction so I won't get into that, but I will point out that workplace safety regulation has progressed significantly in the past 50 years. No longer can you hang your buddy over the edge by his belt to finish that trim. Crews on higher roofs wear harnesses and safety lines. You won't see them swanning around like the old days [wikipedia.org].

    Workplace safety regulations like those coming out of OSHA and CCOHS keep people safer and I think they're good and required, but it's a very obvious fact that taking the time to be safe while building is slower than just winging it.

    • Fewer dead and maimed buddies, too. OSHA doesn't add that much to how long work takes. There is, however, a ton of idling while waiting for permits. Sometimes it's months. Efficiency partly comes from efficient scheduling, and permitting makes efficient scheduling almost impossible.

      • by Bahbus ( 1180627 )

        Permitting is NOT the problem. Construction work has plenty of time to get all the permits and the regularly fail/forget to do so. Construction starts without permits all the time, and only stops when they get found out that they don't have the permits. I am a planner. It's what I did in the military, and it's not much different. They could schedule efficiently, but they don't, because the people doing the scheduling are stupid.

    • by laird ( 2705 )

      That all sounds good, but why has productivity gone up in Europe, where they're far more regulated, and not in the US?

      • by sjames ( 1099 )

        I heard about a program in (IIRC) The Netherlands to take care of where to charge an electric car when so many people live in apartments.

        If you buy a car, you also fill out a request to have a charging station installed for a space on the street in front of your apartment. The charger will be installed and operational in 2 days. And they actually meet the promise.

        In the U.S., I can't even imagine it taking less than a week to get an acknowledgement that the form was received and probably another week to be

    • That photo is 91 years old and it's now owned by a Chinese company. Man what a world we live in.

      It's been awhile since I worked on construction. And I only did a brief stint between careers. But I can tell you right now nobody pays any attention whatsoever to those safety regulations until somebody gets killed and even then only if they're killed in a particularly gruesome fashion. The fines are pretty minimal and the companies can just close their shop on paper and open up a new one.

      That said, I th
      • by jbengt ( 874751 )

        It's been awhile since I worked on construction. And I only did a brief stint between careers. But I can tell you right now nobody pays any attention whatsoever to those safety regulations until somebody gets killed and even then only if they're killed in a particularly gruesome fashion.

        Your view on that may have been colored by your brief stint. I've been in a lot of construction sites (I do the mechanical design), some of which were very loose with safety regulations, but more that were very strict abou

  • I call BS.

    Think about how construction worked in 1973: hand hammering nails, corded drills and power tools, no laser levels or laser saw guides, fewer portable tools such as table and miter saws, fewer time savers like Shark Bite plumbing fittings, black iron pipes instead of PVC or ABS, scissor lifts and cranes instead of ladders, sawsalls instead of crow bars, pre-fabricated trusses instead of hand-framing roofs, the list of productivity innovations is virtually endless. Oh, and quality is better too.

    Just

    • To reply to my own post, just reading the summary begs some questions.

      For example, they talk about houses built per worker and square footage built per worker. That doesn't account for things like houses being more complicated than they used to be. Houses have more electrical than in the past. They have more complicated HVAC systems. Kitchens are more elaborate. Houses are wrapped to make them air tight and better insulated. All that's going to show up in quality but not in speed.

      I can't get to the actual p

    • Yeah it seems like it can't possibly be true. I've finished two basements with what amounts to hobbyist level time and expense investment, and city inspectors are available next day for doing code checks. Watching construction near me it is clear that team availability is the biggest limiting factor, houses go up very fast and seem to linger briefly for the more specialized skilled trades.
      • Watching construction near me it is clear that team availability is the biggest limiting factor, houses go up very fast and seem to linger briefly for the more specialized skilled trades.

        Even for relatively unskilled labor (e.g. landscaping), contractors easily are twice as productive as I am. For skilled trades like plumbing, easily four times.

        Of course, I hope I'm at least four times as productive making PowerPoints explaining in mind-numbing detail why customer X hit bug Y and how we're going to change development processes to ensure that never, ever happens again. Oh, wait, that's value over time and it's...carry the three...still zero.

        • Yeah my hobbies mostly involve making things with my hands since otherwise my day to day stuff is such that as my career has progressed I do less and less of whatever ethereal work I started out doing.
    • by jsailor ( 255868 )

      Here's a few reasons:

      - OSHA and similar: procedures that slow the process to improve safety. They also add head count to the simplest of operations. Not saying it's bad to be safe, but it add humans and cost which reduces productivity
      - BIM and similar: Despite promises, BIM adds 30+% to the drafting process and have not yielded reduction in field coordination issues. You can blame lack of training and experience, but the problems continue.
      - Increased complexity of materials, designs, and methods: newer mate

    • by sjames ( 1099 )

      They seemed to be talking about the value add of the workers. The new pre-fab windows are more expensive (justifiable for the time savings and consistent quality) and the time to install is way down, so not as much value add by the construction workers.

      • They seemed to be talking about the value add of the workers. The new pre-fab windows are more expensive (justifiable for the time savings and consistent quality) and the time to install is way down, so not as much value add by the construction workers.

        I'd have to read TFA to be sure. The summary only talked about number of houses or square feet produced. That's why I wonder if they considered the quality of that square foot or even better, value per worker per hour worked. In general, I'd much rather have a house built today versus one in '73, even if they were the same size (and they're generally not, houses tend larger today).

        The window example is an interesting one. I don't know the vinyl frame is more expensive than framing it from bits of wood. It m

        • by sjames ( 1099 )

          I suspect the pre-fab is a better value for the homeowner in spite of costing more for the MATERIALS (the pre-fab window, or the wood and glass). Consider:

          Old school windows: relatively cheap materials, significant labor. Overall higher cost for homeowner, big value add from the laborer.

          Pre-fab: relatively expensive materials, not much labor. Overall cheaper for the homeowner, not much value add from the laborer.

          Value add of labor = the value of the installed window - the value of the materials sitting on t

  • The cost of the input materials including the land itself have gone up while the portion going to workers is stagnant. That makes the value-add vs. materials lower.

  • by dark.nebulae ( 3950923 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @02:58PM (#63233204)

    Materials have changed, expertise has changed, inspections/permits/regulations have changed, waste disposal has changed, site preparation (from leveling, debris removal, drainage and sewage handling, etc.) etc have all changed from 1970.

    While many can clearly point out that there have been improvements in many of these things over what we were doing in 1970, the end result is that they take longer and negatively affect productivity.

    So they're comparing apples and oranges and trying to claim ridiculous things were the basis for the differences.

    • by Bahbus ( 1180627 )

      None of that is the actual issue though. Sure, those things happened. But construction companies have done zero evolution to stay up with technology and the new practices. They continue to do all the same shit the same way with more downtime while they "wait" for whatever. Despite whatever work they do, in general, construction companies are lazy, especially anyone higher than lowest level workers. Owner, foreman, site sup? All lazy as fuck.

  • by crt ( 44106 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @03:03PM (#63233226)

    My own observation from multiple projects over the last 20 years is that there is a serious shortage of highly-skilled, highly-experienced construction labor in residential construction. This shortage got even worse after the housing crisis, when many experienced workers left the industry for sectors they considered more stable (such as commercial construction).
    The result is that you have projects being done by understaffed crews, with less experienced workers, suffering from high turnover. Problems at one sub can hold up other subs since everyone has to be coordinated together.

    Wages have increased and job opportunity is high right now, but like many skilled blue-collar jobs there are still challenges finding eager, willing workers and retaining them long enough to obtain a high level of competence.

    • I dunno, pretty much every construction site I go by in California is staffed by illegals and other assorted day laborers who just arrived with dubious legality from Central America.

      Pretty much no one speaks a word of English with the exception of the foreman who's English is barely passable. Wages (if they are even declared to tax authorities) are commensurate.

      It is no wonder highly experienced Americans no longer want to go into this field..

      • by Bahbus ( 1180627 )

        It's a field that has seen absolutely zero innovation in like 100 years. All the technology we've advanced, and we still build buildings the same basic way. Sure, we have fancier tools and machines, but the actual construction of the buildings is the same. Zero innovation. We still use shitty wood, shitty nails, shitty insulation, shitty drywall, etc, etc.

        • by jbengt ( 874751 )

          It's a field that has seen absolutely zero innovation in like 100 years. All the technology we've advanced, and we still build buildings the same basic way. Sure, we have fancier tools and machines, but the actual construction of the buildings is the same.

          I've been on the design end of construction for 40+ years. The way buildings are built, especially the systems inside them, have advanced significantly in that 40 years.

  • I am convinced that productivity in a white collar space is purely MBA bullshit metric that doesn't measure anything.

    It is rather obvious when framing, roofing, plumbing or electrical is not completed on time. There is no agile, there is very little in a way of accumulating tech debt (you have building inspector), and there is no ability to push for a crazy overtime as work is physical in nature and would lead to site safety violations.
  • by hazem ( 472289 ) on Monday January 23, 2023 @03:18PM (#63233278) Journal

    I wonder if making it harder for undocumented workers to enter the country is part of this.

    Building was "more efficient" when there were more "unofficial/off-the-books workers". Now there's fewer of them so more on-the-books workers need to be hired or less work gets done.

    • by Bahbus ( 1180627 )

      No, it wasn't. It was cheaper and deadlier. The quality of construction was still garbage. You have to go back even earlier to find decent American construction.

      • by hazem ( 472289 )

        But efficiency isn't about quality or safety. Efficiency is strictly the amount of output for a given input.

        I you have a building team with 5 actual employees and 5 undocumented workers (off the books, paid in cash), they can build more than a team of just 5 actual employees. In both cases, the denominator is 5 employees, but in the undocumented case, there is more output, so it's "more efficient" in a strictly capitalist sense.

        That said, better enforcement of workplace safety rules will likely cause a de

  • In many regions buildings need to be stronger, making them more expensive.
  • There is not a single American construction company in existence today that knows what they're doing, knows the best practices for it, and can do it in a timely manner. At best, you can get maybe one of those three qualities, but never more than one. America's construction sector is a joke - crappy materials, crappy skills.

  • The quality of workmanship (and productivity) in the trades has dropped through the fucking floor. I'm in Canada. The only thing in the last 15 years that I had done that was done correctly was an HVAC installation in my "new" home. I had HVAC done in my last home and it cost me a total of $20,000 in mold damage over time. I had a toilet installed incorrectly that cost me $3000 in water damage. The painting in my condo (bought new) was abysmal. I have friends with absolute horror stories of kitchen renovat

  • I own a few rental homes. Finding good, competent workers is extremely hard. Most workers need to be watched constantly. But worse there is no relationship between pay and quality. My best worker gets 30/hr. This guy is so good I'm willing to pay him 90/hr but when I raised his pay he worked less for me! Between the stigmatism of manual labour, the perceived lower pay I can see why many of the smarter kids don't want to go into the trades. Maybe more transparency in wages in the trades or something l
  • TFS says "number of houses or total square footage built per employee" which, if true, is perhaps only a little better than measuring SLOC for software dev productivity. Number of houses is particularly useless. What is the complexity of the average house? I will tell you that here, it makes a significant difference. HVAC is getting significantly more complex with multiple zones in even a medium size house instead of just one, and external air exchange requirements. Bathrooms are one of the most effort inte
  • Anyone who has worked in this field knows what the problem is. There is absolutely no need to be more productive or try to cut costs at all. The housing market is completely locked down, so you are mostly competing with existing houses, which are selling for a million dollars apeace. That's a lot more than a house would really cost to build if you were worried about the cost. So you can afford to keep a bunch of dead weight around, waste materials and hours, take a long lunch and bill it to the customer. It

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