US Proposes 56% Vehicle Emissions Cut By 2032, Requiring Big EV Jump (reuters.com) 251
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) on Wednesday proposed sweeping emissions cuts for new cars and trucks through 2032, a move it says could mean two out of every three new vehicles automakers sell will be electric within a decade. From a report: The proposal, if finalized, represents the most aggressive U.S. vehicle emissions reduction plan to date, requiring 13% annual average pollution cuts and a 56% reduction in projected fleet average emissions over 2026 requirements. The EPA is also proposing new stricter emissions standards for medium-duty and heavy-duty trucks through 2032.
The EPA projects the 2027-2032 model year rules would cut more than 9 billion tons of CO2 emissions through 2055 - equivalent to more than twice total U.S. CO2 emissions last year. Automakers and environmentalists say the administration is moving quickly in order to finalize new rules by early 2024 to make it much harder for a future Congress or president to reverse them. Then President Donald Trump rolled back tough emissions limits through 2025 set under Barack Obama but the Biden administration reversed the rollback. The agency estimates net benefits through 2055 from the proposal range from $850 billion to $1.6 trillion. By 2032 the proposal would cost about $1,200 per vehicle per manufacturer, but save an owner more than $9,000 on average on fuel, maintenance, and repair costs over an eight-year period.
The EPA projects the 2027-2032 model year rules would cut more than 9 billion tons of CO2 emissions through 2055 - equivalent to more than twice total U.S. CO2 emissions last year. Automakers and environmentalists say the administration is moving quickly in order to finalize new rules by early 2024 to make it much harder for a future Congress or president to reverse them. Then President Donald Trump rolled back tough emissions limits through 2025 set under Barack Obama but the Biden administration reversed the rollback. The agency estimates net benefits through 2055 from the proposal range from $850 billion to $1.6 trillion. By 2032 the proposal would cost about $1,200 per vehicle per manufacturer, but save an owner more than $9,000 on average on fuel, maintenance, and repair costs over an eight-year period.
Trucks (Score:5, Interesting)
Trucks are still getting preferential treatment though at least they seem to be trying to narrow the gap
The proposed rules do also acknowledge that OEMs have taken advantage of similar leniency in the past to reclassify light-duty vehicles as light trucks in order to pollute more. One way the EPA hopes to prevent that is by increasing the minimum allowed footprint for a car from 41 square feet to 45 square feet by model year 2032 and by reducing the maximum footprint of trucks to 70 square feet (from 73 square feet) by model year 2030.
Re:Trucks (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yep, that's a problem.
The big polluting SUVs got relabelled "trucks" and get lenient pollution standards.
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That isn't true anymore. Half-ton pickups are under CAFE standards. This is why Ford/GM/etc. have gone to aluminum bodies, when initially Ford was mocked at doing, but those ads stopped when other pickup truck makers did the same. This is also why the V8 engines are being phased out for turbocharged V6 engines or hybrids.
Heavier trucks are a different thing, but you are not going to shoehorn a F-350 in an urban parking spot.
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Heavier trucks are a different thing, but you are not going to shoehorn a F-350 in an urban parking spot.
I see giant trucks shoehorned into parking spots all the time. My favorite are the giant extended cab/bed trucks that park on the street and stick out into the road so far that you to have to drive into the other lane to get around them.
Not just Trucks, SUVs (Score:2)
Not a good idea—yet (Score:3)
I'm not sure about the rest of the country as I live in California and only know the situation here, but this seems to me to be a very short-sighted decision. It's all well and good to make rules that will eventually lead to more electric cars, and sooner rather than later, but it ignores the big problem: the electrical grid does not have the capacity for all those new electric cars. Given how hot it gets in California in the summer, the very real threat of brownouts and planned rotating blackouts to keep the grid from crashing, the desperate calls from the state regulator last summer to conserve power using the emergency notification system on the mobile phone network, and the simple fact that there is still not enough investment in the development of new sources of power generation, this new regulation will likely create a disaster in California during a hot summer. It's unfortunate but true: car owners need to be able to charge their cars during the day when the battery runs down. It's not realistic to ask them all to defer charging until after 9 pm when the load on the grid decreases.
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...but it ignores the big problem: the electrical grid does not have the capacity for all those new electric cars....
The electric grid desperately needs to implement time-dependent pricing, giving people an incentive to charge their cars during the midnight-to-7am time period when the grid is oversupplied.
(yes, even in summer).
Consumer advocacy groups have mostly succeeded in killing such proposals (on the argument "it's just a pretext to allow electric companies to raise prices"), but they are needed.
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Problem is all the pricing power is still going to be in the power distributor's and probably large consumer's hands, not the retail consumer. Just look at gasoline, where prices change daily based on geopolitics and industry issues, not on retail demand.
The only thing a retail consumer can do is choose not to use power - you can't easily shift consumption without significant capital investment (like a home battery storage, which you probably can't even do if you are a renter). Given the number one retail
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How big is your house, and what do you have the temperature set to? The average American household consumes ~30kWh/day. Even the little Nissan Leaf has a capacity of 40+ kWh, and Teslas go up to 100 kWh.
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Most people have adjusted to these price fluctuations and most newer appliances like washing machines can be started via an app or timer.
I don't need to charge my Ariya every day so I too look at the prices (available for the next 24 hrs) and set the charger accordingly.
Re: Not a good idea—yet (Score:3)
Yeah, but fuck California.
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If this electric vehicle thing was truly a great idea and/or way cheaper you wouldn't need to pass legislation to force people to adopt it.
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The legislation is to force manufacturers to build them. You can't buy something if nobody makes it.
No private individual will be penalized for not buying an EV. That's a fantasy for people who have knee-jerk reactions to things they don't understand.
=Smidge=
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The legislation is to force manufacturers to build them. You can't buy something if nobody makes it.
Everyone already builds them to the extent the supplychain allows them and/or to the extent that they're able to sell them.
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Re: Not a good idea—yet (Score:2)
Imagine we wanted to pollute less and every ICE had to pay for cleaning up its emissions. If today's vehicles are so much better you got nothing to worry about for old cars and big trucks...
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Imagine we wanted to pollute less and every ICE had to pay for cleaning up its emissions. If today's vehicles are so much better you got nothing to worry about for old cars and big trucks...
You're going to spend much more time cleaining up after that EV battery than anyone will spend cleaning up after a Ram 1500.
Re: Not a good idea—yet (Score:2)
Of course an ICE will win out if you didn't drive it at all. Then you wouldn't have pollution from driving. None of the continuous pollution from processing all that crude oil. None of that pollution from distribution of gasoline.
That's before we consider the distributed nature of ICE pollution vs a heavily centralized electric. Before we consider the low efficiency of ICE vehicles vs the more efficient central power plants + distribution network + batteries.
But if you did drive it, let's not leave out the
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Because most EU countries significantly tax CO2 causing fuels they have less problems to make people move to EV.
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and the simple fact that there is still not enough investment in the development of new sources of power generation.
Wind/Solar has grown from 7, TWH in 2009 to 48 TWH in 2021 (out of about 200 TWH total). California is investing TONS in new sources of power.
the desperate calls from the state regulator last summer to conserve power using the emergency notification system on the mobile phone network
The biggest reason for the power crunch (which was only a few days), was due primarily to an unusual late-summer heat wave (still hot at the end of the day, but sun going down earlier) coupled with our reservoirs being empty from drought (can't release water to generate electricity).
California does screw things up in the planning department a lot, but to act like we
Where do they get the $1200 number from? (Score:2)
Where does this number come from: "By 2032 the proposal would cost about $1,200 per vehicle per manufacturer"?
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need ban dealer only battery swaps / repairs (Score:2)
need ban dealer only battery swaps / repairs
or pay Tesla’s $16,000 Quote for a $700 Fix and Have them try to take the old one (not allowed in some states) so you can't try to sell the old one to make up some of the cost.
I won't get one (Score:3)
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Until the range improves, I need to be able to go 500 miles on a charge. Why? because of cold weather and summers which cut back on range. Either that or fast charging vehicles, you wouldn't catch me dead waiting 20mins to charge my car, 7-10mins maybe.
You are going to be waiting a long time to see ranges of 500 miles, because it isn't a target there is much of a market for. High range vehicles are usually closer to 350 miles. Very few people need to drive more than 350 miles in a day. That would be at least a 3 hour one way commute. And if you are doing long range driving, 300 miles gives you about 4-5 hours of interstate driving in between charges. Most people are looking for a break to driving at least every 4-5 hours.
As for hot and cold weather, it is
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Until the range improves, I need to be able to go 500 miles on a charge. Why? because of cold weather and summers which cut back on range. Either that or fast charging vehicles, you wouldn't catch me dead waiting 20mins to charge my car, 7-10mins maybe.
You are going to be waiting a long time to see ranges of 500 miles, because it isn't a target there is much of a market for. High range vehicles are usually closer to 350 miles. Very few people need to drive more than 350 miles in a day. That would be at least a 3 hour one way commute. And if you are doing long range driving, 300 miles gives you about 4-5 hours of interstate driving in between charges. Most people are looking for a break to driving at least every 4-5 hours.
As for hot and cold weather, it is only cold weather which has a significant effect on range. You can expect about 70% of the normal range in very cold climates. So in a cold climate, if you have over a 2 hour commute to work then current EVs probably aren't for you. Otherwise complaining about range is really just blowing hot air for the vast majority of people.
Do you live in the NE of the US where everything is close together or something? I can't think of a single road trip I've ever taken that's under 5 hours, and most are between 8 and 21!
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Re:I won't get one (Score:5, Insightful)
When EVs are discussed, there's always a group of people who say they're just not ready yet, and they always point out some scenario where they need higher specs than are generally available. The funny part is how the specs keep getting higher and higher and the scenarios keep getting more outlandish.
For people who can charge at home (a legitimate issue for those who can't), you very rarely need to think about charging times at all. But people will look for excuses as to why it's not for them instead of looking for ways to make it work.
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> Why? because of cold weather and summers which cut back on range.
This is a real thing.
It's about 15-20% reduction in the most nightmarish cases. We're talking soaked in subzero temperatures all night without being plugged in followed by blasting the non-heatpump heat at max the entire trip.
So basically you're saying you need 400+ miles, which is still eyebrow-raising...
=Smidge=
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It's about 15-20% reduction in the most nightmarish cases
That's not even close to correct. It completely depends on how cold you are talking or which vehicle, but even just at freezing (hardly a 'nightmarish case'), some models already see a 30% reduction.
I hate the anti-EV side spreading misinformation trying to make EVs sound worse than they really are. Don't be like them and spread misinformation trying to minimize the real issues of EVs.
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/evs-lose-range-in-the-cold/
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300 miles in their brake shoes (Score:2)
The only two off the top of my head are A) heavily congested urban areas
I have been driving electric for ten years (Score:5, Interesting)
There is a lot of misinformation being passed around, and a lot of false assumptions about EVs in general from people who just don't have the experience of owning one or who are getting information from political sources that are backed by over $100M a year in oil industry donations (opensecrets.org). Let me see if I can break some of these down.
"I need 500+ miles of range" - No you don't. You don't have a 400+ mile commute. You are thinking in terms of a gas car where you fill up once a week and drive until you are empty. Or you are suddenly becoming a long haul trucker. Either way - keep reading.
"The infrastructure can't handle the load" - Yes it can. As we build up more EVs, they are not being built in isolation. Many states are also encouraging things like alternative energy, rooftop solar, deep well geothermal, and more - which both adds to our raw production and reduces grid demand by using local production like rooftop solar. Not to mention things like PowerWalls and bidirectional charging of EVs which will let you generate energy by day, store it, and release it as needed and have the ability to tap into it when usage spikes. California tested this out last Summer with PowerWalls pumping energy back into the grid as needed. Bidirectional EVs can do the same - even power your home if there is a power outage.
"EV's are too expensive" - Only if you don't do the math and include the lack of maintenance and gas purchase over the life of the car. My daily commute in my V8 is $15 a day, $10 a day in my v6 car, and $3 by EV. I saved so much by switching that I was able to pay my car off early. Plus the manufacture of an EV is far less costly than a gas car, so more room to reduce margins once more hit the street and the competition ramps up.
"The battery wears out and costs $20K" - yes, batteries wear out. The only place I saw a battery PACK that expensive was at full dealer cost. But you will likely get well over 200 - 300K miles out of your EV before getting that close. I had a battery issue at 250K miles and was able to find a shop that found the 3 underperforming cells (out of 11) and just replaced those cells with refurbs/used cells and gave me a year warranty on the whole pack for about $750. Far less than the price of oil changes during that same milage. And battery tech is getting better all the time,
"They catch fire too often" - No - they catch fire far less often than ICE vehicles. Somewhere around 60+ gas car fires to 1 EV fire the last time I checked. Gas car fires are so common they don't make the news. EV fires are so rare they are national news.
"The cold/heat/hills/towing affect range" - yes they do - just like a gas car. Plan for it. Mostly the are in the singe digits due to temperatures because most EV batteries include a temperature monitoring and regulation system (BTMS) that warms and cools the battery as needed to minimize this effect. Trailers are starting to be built with battery packs and drive wheels included to extend range. And at least in an EV, you will recover some of that energy through regenerative braking - unlike a gas car/truck.
"I can gas up in 5 minutes" - I can plug in my EV in 11 seconds, then walk away and be productive (multitask) rater than sit at the pump for 5 minutes (single task). I usually charge overnight at home when rates are low and start every day with a 'full tank'. Get out of the gas car mentality that you have to drive someplace special to charge. You really don't unless you are doing a 200 mile commute each day - in that case, charge up at work. Next - look at recharge lanes and push to get them set up on highways so you can charge as you drive.
There are more, but these hit the highlights of comments from non-EV owners who "WILL NEVER BUY AN EV" and are super proud of that fact that they are going to keep spending more money in gas and maintenance because the gas company paid their politician to scare them back to the gas pump as long as possible.
Re: I have been driving electric for ten years (Score:2)
Mod parent up.
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I agree with your points about range, expense, battery packs (IF serviceable), and fire hazard.
On infrastructure: I work in the utility industry, in a progressive region, and there are some huge question marks on the Powerpoint slides around how to deal with increased demand from EVs. There are all sorts of contingency plans involving getting people to change behavior to reduce demand peaks to hopefully fill in for missing capacity, and there is much concern about the political feasibility of those plans.
O
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The point is that a $30K+ vehicle, the most expensive thing most people will buy besides their house, should not make that trip more difficult if you ever need to do it.
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1st world bitches... Suck it up snowflakes! Your world needs to change; you are going to discover people are getting fed up with you spoiled paris hiltons of the world. The younger generation is not on your side and they will soon grab power away from the selfish boomers screwing them and their children's future.
Culture needs to shift. You used to need a place for people's horse and a guest room and food given that mode of transportation often required staying over night.
Now instead of spending $10 to visit
- so charge at home overnight - (Score:2, Informative)
"Let them eat cake" is the most famous quote attributed to Marie-Antoinette, the queen of France during the French Revolution. As the story goes, it was the queen's response upon being told that her starving peasant subjects had no bread. Because cake is more expensive than bread, the anecdote has been cited as an example of Marie-Antoinette's obliviousness to the conditions and daily lives of ordinary people. [Britannica]
Perhaps you are all rich nerds who own suburban ranch style homes with solar roof pane
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Forgot to mention: parking is not free. In my building, people pay $50/month to park out of the weather in the basement. That's typical. A secure garage will cost far more than $100/month.
If the owner installs a charging unit, do you think it will be free?
Here's a few educated ones (Score:2, Insightful)
* Insufficient charger network.
* The grid is not ready in most states for a massive increase in demand.
* We are in the middle of a recession, and wages are very unlikely to keep up with EV prices.
* By about 2026, almost the entire federal debt will be refinanced at current rates, making EV credits politically toxic.
Re: Here's a few educated ones (Score:3)
You will own nothing and be happy.
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I would definitely NOT want to live there.
That set up would necessitate apartment living...s
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* Insufficient charger network.
Charge at home.
* The grid is not ready in most states for a massive increase in demand.
Charge at night, when other loads are low.
* We are in the middle of a recession, and wages are very unlikely to keep up with EV prices.
The approach to rectify a recession is to spend money on infrastructure.
* By about 2026, almost the entire federal debt will be refinanced at current rates, making EV credits politically toxic.
The federal debt is a completely different problem not related to EV credits.
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* Insufficient charger network.
Charge at home.
* The grid is not ready in most states for a massive increase in demand.
Charge at night, when other loads are low.
Stop assuming that everyone has a consistent place to park & charge their vehicle every night
Re:Here's a few educated ones (Score:5, Insightful)
Stop assuming that a solution needs to work for 100% of people to be useful. Today, approximately 0% of people can refuel at home. With EVs, perhaps 70% of people will be able to. That's a huge amount of home charging that replaces the need to use public chargers. And that's not counting the many people who will be able to charge at work.
It still won't work (Score:3)
The issue with the charger network is not local charging, it's being able to just get up and go 4-36 hours from your home on a trip without worrying about finding a usable charger. This is where a substantial amount of investment needs to be done, and probably more on the order of a trillion dollars than a few billion. It will also require a substa
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Yes it takes a bit of planning before you take off for a new destination but it is very much doable.
Many manufacturers of EV's have a good price deal with the Inonity charging stations and you'll find them around every 150 to 250 km (for the handicapped that's every ~90 to 155 mi), in other words around two hours apart.
The potential problem I see is the Ger
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Yes it takes a bit of planning before you take off for a new destination
And that's exactly what people don't want, because for some people having to plan to that degree WILL give them anxiety.
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In this day and age, who doesn't already plug in their destination to Google Maps before setting off on a road trip to get a sense of the route, ETA, etc.? The "extra planning" is that instead of Google Maps, you need to use a route planner that factors in charging stations and your vehicle's range.
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This is an edge case. It's also nowhere near as difficult as you think it is
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Stop assuming that a solution needs to work for 100% of people to be useful. Today, approximately 0% of people can refuel at home. With EVs, perhaps 70% of people will be able to. That's a huge amount of home charging that replaces the need to use public chargers. And that's not counting the many people who will be able to charge at work.
If you're going to judge folks for making offhand comments that aren't accurate, you may want to think about not making offhand comments that aren't accurate. The number of people that can refuel at home is definitely not zero percent. Probably somewhere around 1% if you talk only of farmers with their own fuel supplies on their land. Another few numbers behind the decimal for preppers and stockpilers.
I know it's not a large number, just my internal autist jumping at a number I knew was wrong.
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The number of people that can refuel at home is definitely not zero percent. Probably somewhere around 1% if you talk only of farmers with their own fuel supplies on their land.
Well, technically ANYBODY can 'fuel from home' by taking a container of fuel to their house. You still need to go get the fuel or have it delivered to you from a... wait for it... gas station.
On a side note, do we count farmers fueling from the farms as fueling at home or fueling at work? :-)
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Are you aware of what the word "approximately" means? You have no more idea than I do about whether the actual number is closer to 0%, 1% or 2% or some other slightly higher number. 0% is a perfectly reasonable approximation.
Re: Here's a few educated ones (Score:2)
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It does have to if they're going to be legally mandating it, explicitly or effectively.
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By solution, I meant home charging. Not use of EVs. Home charging does not need to work for everyone in order for EVs to work for everyone.
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Nice try... (Score:2)
Doesn't work for many significant issues around commuting, non-local travel, etc.
The price of electricity at night will go up accordingly.
Keynes said that deficit spending in recessions must be matched by budget surpluses during booms to keep debt levels manageable. That has not been done for about 25 years since the last surplus. The debt is now growing at a level that mandates a
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Doesn't work for many significant issues around commuting, non-local travel, etc.
I have no idea what those "significant issues" are.
The price of electricity at night will go up accordingly.
Good. Marginal cost of production of electricity is essentally zero at night right now.
If use of electric cars becomes so huge that charging them is the single largest part of the electrical demand ... then change the price structure.
Re:Here's a few educated ones (Score:5, Informative)
You said educated, yet you talked about a "massive increase in demand". That's not an educated statement. Run the numbers. It's not a massive increase. The 2 most common mistakes people make that leads them to say it's massive are:
1, assuming each EV needs a 0 to 100% charge every day. Obviously, what's really needed is about 30 miles-worth of electric power per car per day, which is about 8kWh. US households use about 29kWh per day at present.
2, assuming a 100% overnight transition to EVs. In practice, cars at 12 years old when scrapped on average, meaning the fleet replacement is about 8% per annum if we assume roughly constant fleet size. And only about half of those new sales are envisaged to be EVs even by 2032, apparently.
You also ignore economies of scale when talking about EV pricing.
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Tired old tropes of the anti-EV crowd...
* Insufficient charger network. - No. Plenty of chargers now and thousands of new ones being installed.
* The grid is not ready in most states for a massive increase in demand. - No. Most charging takes place at night when there is lots of excess capacity in the grid.
* We are in the middle of a recession, and wages are very unlikely to keep up with EV prices. - No. EV prices are dropping rapidly.
* By about 2026, almost the entire federal debt will be refinanced at current rates, making EV credits politically toxic. - EV/Solar/Charger credits are in place now and only contribute a miniscule percent of national debt. Try cutting defense budget and oil subsidies for real savings.
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OK, you're other points were just the usual anti-EV argumnets that can be disputed, but this one is just wrong. We are not in the middle of a recession. GDP growth is low, but has been positive for the last few quarters. Unemployment is low and employment is high. I suppose a recession could start at any time, but it hasn't started and is not being predicted. Also wage growth was pretty high the last few years
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coming in 3.. 2.. 1..
"Coal powered cars..."
How about "We can't afford it this fast".
People want electric cars. It's coming.
My children ask me why I don't have a Tesla, and I tell them I can't afford one.
They understand. Politicians do not.
Re: Uneducated comments about EVs... (Score:2)
No kidding. Until they get 500 miles on a charge and sell for under $25K, I can't afford one.
In the meantime, I'll keep driving my 2007 gas burner.
Re: Uneducated comments about EVs... (Score:3)
Oh please. I rented one for 8 days recently. Seemed like I spent way more of my time worrying about and finding a place to charge it than anything else.
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Re: Uneducated comments about EVs... (Score:3)
No, it was because my hotel didn't have a charger, and because my hotel was 2 hours from the airport to which I needed to return the car - charged to 75% or more to avoid a $35 charge.
Even with a full charge, I couldn't get from my hotel back to the airport whilst using 25% or less of a full charge.
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Family members will never be happy with waiting around to charge. Toronto to Montreal is really a very short trip. It's something like 1/5 of Canada.
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coming in 3.. 2.. 1..
"Coal powered cars..." "Liberal hoax..." "Range anxiety..."
blah blah blah
"I'm using EV and it works for me, so they must be good enough for everyone"
Or the same, in different words:
"I got mine (usecase covered), fuck you!"
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"I'm using EV and it works for me, so they must be good enough for everyone"
And you have the opposite. "EVs won't (currently) work for me, therefore they are all stupid."
Why don't we face the reality that 1) We all know they won't work for 100% of use-cases. 2) We're talking timelines of 15 years for "full electric". Look where we got in the last 10 years, what do you think it'll look like in another 10? (I say "full electric" in quotes because I don't believe for a nanosecond that gas-burners are going away in that timeframe. There are still cars from the 50s on the road ever
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Re:Uneducated comments about EVs... (Score:5, Insightful)
And I was reading the other day, that China and other countries are already putting restrictions on exports, often by way of high taxes to get around the WTO....
If we can start to mine all the EV battery materials domestically, or at least show we can do this without being dependent upon (hostile) foreign nations, then ok....
Currently, if we HAD to ....we could turn the domestic oil pumps back on and be self sufficient, but I'm a bit concerned about going so fast for EV's and not being able to be independent domestically to put them together and keep them running.
Asia already has the US by the balls for the computer chips in them....and, adding batteries on top of it all, makes for a real nice way to cripple the US and the US economy if they want to.
I won't even go into the govt actively crippling the oil industry we are currently dependent upon before we are fully ready with supply lines and infra structure for going full blown commitment to EVs.
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Your ICE cars are already dependent on China for raw materials. Unless you want to remove any piece of electronic in recent cars.
That's what people get by voting with their wallet, and choosing to buy new shiny things every few years, at the smallest possible cost.
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You didn't actually read the comment to which you replied, did you. They said exactly that.
Re:Uneducated comments about EVs... (Score:5, Insightful)
That is so ironic. Haven't you noticed that we have a gas crisis every decade, like clockwork, for the last 50 years? Clinging to fossil fuel to avoid foreign entanglements is like fearmongering about the medical risks of the polio vaccine.
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Well, until recently we were drilling and producing more than enough oil for the US and to export....the current administration put a serious kibosh on that with regulations and limitations....
They artificially have strangled US production and then had Biden going on hands and knees to the Saudis and I believe Venenzuala asking them to please produce more since the Russia events.
We could b
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Here [bloomberglaw.com] is US oil production.
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the current administration put a serious kibosh on that with regulations and limitations
This is a common lie. The Biden administration has taken actions that will likely reduce oil production in a decade or so, but nothing that affects production now, or even in the next five years.
Re:Uneducated comments about EVs... (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, one thing I'm very concerned about is how dependent we are upon foreign nations, especially CHINA for the raw materials to make the batteries for the EVs.
And I was reading the other day, that China and other countries are already putting restrictions on exports, often by way of high taxes to get around the WTO....
If we can start to mine all the EV battery materials domestically, or at least show we can do this without being dependent upon (hostile) foreign nations, then ok....
This whole thing is a gamble. If it works, then the US will be on the fast-track to self-sufficiency for EVs. China blocking exports helps in this regard. The question, as you raise, is whether there is a path to achieving that self-sufficiency. China current produces a lot of needed raw materials, but other countries, including the US, have under-developed resources that could be ramped up. Things like processors can be produced quickly, if there is the economic will. That's what this initiative is trying to do, to create the economic will.
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So...let's ramp up and have that level of production BEFORE we clamp down and cut the legs out from under ourselves with regard to fossil fuels and vehicles that we depend on so much.
Let's not jump off the cliff before we strap on the parachute.
Re:Uneducated comments about oil (Score:5, Informative)
I won't even go into the govt actively crippling the oil industry we are currently dependent upon before we are fully ready with supply lines and infra structure for going full blown commitment to EVs.
What government activity, exactly, is it that you are referring to which has "crippled" the oil industry?
The oil industry in the US is producing more oil than ever in history, and is harvesting trillions of dollars in revenue.
Doesn't seem crippled to me.
When he was elected, people had speculated that the Biden administration would slow this down, but it turns out no; the Biden administration has actually been outpacing Trump's records [biologicaldiversity.org] in granting new drilling approvals. And just approved [nytimes.com] a new drilling operation in Alaska.
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I won't even go into the govt actively crippling the oil industry
Hehehe, the US oil industry is doing quite well, I just read: "US oilfield services employment highest since March 2020 – Energy Workforce & Technology Council".
Plus Biden just opened up large areas for licencing.
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Well, you will be buying an EV as your next vehicle....
maybe, maybe not. I will likely be dead by the time the square wheels of government get to rolling. Also, don't forget that now politicians seem to think reversing everything their predecessors did is better than moving forward.
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$1,200 per vehicle per manufacturer, but save an owner more than $9,000 on average on fuel, maintenance, and repair costs over an eight-year period
Eight years - after which point there is probably no fixing it. That is about the amount of time modern materials allow us to put together an engine to not need major work for (gaskets, front seals, value guides...) etc.
To hit these goals you probably have to have crazy complexity. variable time, variable lift, variable duration on both the intake an exhaust side, mixed injection throttle body and direct, and so fourth. You probably need 9 speed or CVT transmissions on everything too.
Vehicles built this way will probably hit the eight year mark and then the parts and labor cost to put even a basic econbox back into good mechanical order will ensure its scrapped.
This should been seen as what it is an attack on middle class mobility physical and social!
Lets Go Brandon.
Ohhhh, look at the Luddite pro-Troll it...
I have 10 year old Audi diesel, has only needed two seals in the V, and still works like a champ. Over 140K. Pulls trailers. General bad-ass.
Even so, I look forward to getting a plug in hybrid, and charging at home, saving some serious fuel cash, as well as general maintenance, oil, filters, DEF, etc..
Keep in mind, when cars were new, gasoline has delivered by horse drawn cart. Change is iterative, not an attack.
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I have 10 year old Audi diesel, has only needed two seals in the V, and still works like a champ.
Right - because it does not have stupid complex head 5x more moving parts - and diesels are largely simpler than gasoline engines in the first place.
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I have 10 year old Audi diesel, has only needed two seals in the V, and still works like a champ.
Right - because it does not have stupid complex head 5x more moving parts - and diesels are largely simpler than gasoline engines in the first place.
Diesel, simpler than gas. Sure, the ignition system is a bit simpler, no plug wires or coil(s), and, that, is, it. One still has multiple valves per cylinder, cams, lifters, oiling, fuel delivery, power train components, scads of engine management, variable turbo, high compression cylinder sealing, inter-cooler(s) as well as DEF and particulate filter systems.
But, yeah, simpler. Sure.
Maybe you are thinking two-stroke...
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You used to have to park your horse; and it "exhausted" itself, drank water, maybe ate something. You had to wait for it to "recharge" and "fuel up." The place you visited accommodated all of this.
EV is more like the horse situation as far as fueling it.