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Canada Businesses

Canada Plans Brain Drain of H-1B Visa Holders, With No-Job, No-Worries Work Permits (theregister.com) 293

Canada has launched a bid to attract techies working in the USA on the notorious H-1B visa, by offering them the chance to move north. From a report: The offer, announced on Wednesday as part of the nation's first ever tech talent strategy, means H-1B visa holders can move to Canada without having a job waiting for them. The H-1B visa is contentious in the USA. Its purpose is to attract skilled people whose talents are in short supply stateside, thus adding flexibility to the economy, but the visa is believed to be widely abused -- by employers who use it to find employees willing to work for less than their American peers.

But the visa is very popular in India -- one of the main sources of H-1B applicants. Indeed it's so popular that the Biden Administration last week announced moderate reforms to the program during the state visit by Indian prime minster Narendra Modi. The H-1B also made news early in 2023 amid mass layoffs in the tech sector, because visa holders who don't have jobs have just 90 days to leave the Land of the Free. Canada has clearly spotted an opportunity to nab some talent that needs a bolt-hole -- and can get that talent safe in the knowledge that its southern neighbor has vetted H-1B holders, and they already have some experience of working in North America.

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Canada Plans Brain Drain of H-1B Visa Holders, With No-Job, No-Worries Work Permits

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  • Fantastic idea (Score:3, Insightful)

    by goomba000 ( 10192551 ) on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:07AM (#63640310)
    Let's lower our already uncompetitive (compared to our neighbors south) salaries further, while generating ill will with our closest allies and trading partners in this time of economic unrest.
    • Re:Fantastic idea (Score:5, Insightful)

      by quantaman ( 517394 ) on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:34AM (#63640442)

      Let's lower our already uncompetitive (compared to our neighbors south) salaries further

      Uncompetitive because all the big tech employers are in the US. If this brings in enough talent the employers start opening more offices here and we might even start building more of our own companies.

      while generating ill will with our closest allies and trading partners in this time of economic unrest.

      Yeah, I don't really give a damn about hurting the US's delicate feelings [wikipedia.org].

      Besides, among things that generate ill will in the US "you're trying to lure away our brown skinned immigrants" isn't one of them.

  • by magzteel ( 5013587 ) on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:10AM (#63640316)

    The H1-B program is "believed to be widely abused" because it is

  • by lsllll ( 830002 ) on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:12AM (#63640334)
    Canada has been desperately trying to up its headcount for decades. That's why it offers many ways [canada.ca] to become a permanent resident. But for some reason many foreigners who immigrate to Canada do so as a stepping stone to come to the U.S. My sister immigrated from Iran to Canada and she keeps telling me she'd leave CA in a heartbeat to move to Los Angeles (which I believe is the real armpit of America). I don't understand the rationale. I guess is you don't like colder weather, but I suspect many of the Indians whom are targets of H-1B visas won't like the cold, either.
    • by LazarusQLong ( 5486838 ) on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:25AM (#63640396)
      Once, when I was working in the UK, I met a Romanian lady who was waitressing at a restaurant there. She had been trying to get into the USA via the UK -> Canada -> USA route, but once she got to the UK, she decided to stay there because.... economic/healthcare/other things, that just made the UK, a place she had never thought of immigrating into, a better location that either Canada or the USA. And she had several college degrees but could only get a job as a waitress at that time... and still preferred the UK (she lived outside London)
    • the US Dollar is worth a lot more overseas (petro dollar and all that) so most folks want to earn in USD. There's also juts plain more raw cash to be made here. You can take really shitty healthcare in exchange for extra pay and if you're young and healthy (probably) get away with it. As a contractor you can probably just not sign up for it at all. The ACA requirements were repealed some time ago.
  • by sinij ( 911942 ) on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:20AM (#63640360)
    The key reason why H-1B program was bad is that these visas were used to suppress wages because visa holders were tied to a specific employer. This move will give more options to negotiate fair wage to these visa holders. As such, this is Good Thing for tech sector wages.
    • the problem flooding the market with cheap labor that gets trained for free overseas.

      Take away the lock in and Americans still can't compete because even with all things being equal a) increasing labor supply reduces prices, i.e. wages, and that's always going to be desirable to anyone who buys a lot of labor (supply and demand goes both ways) and b) you don't need a training budget when you use H1-Bs.

      That last one is huge. Companies used to have to train workers and then treat them well because the
    • have a negative impact on demand and therefore pricing? e.g. in the absence of Unions how do you keep wage high? And even with Unions of there's an oversupply of labor, wouldn't wages still go down?

      I'll admit tech wages are better than say drywallers, but they're still not keeping pace with inflation. I'm skeptical that just letting Visa holders stay indefinately until they find work is going to fix the problem.

      We're also assuming the shortage isn't artificial. Companies used to train people to do t
  • You can have them (Score:5, Interesting)

    by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:33AM (#63640438)
    I know tons of underemployed Americans who could be working programming or higher end tech jobs but nobody'll hire them. Every company wants H1-Bs because they can abuse them.

    This is especially horrible because it makes a pipeline for cheap workers to replace Americans.

    And yes, I'm aware that in a properly run society I wouldn't be competing for survival with other workers in India, but I am. I don't get to make the rules. I'm trying, I vote, I vote in primaries, I donate to candidates who will make things better, but my vote is overwhelmed by older voters who frankly don't care.

    If we had a national tech union and voting blocks we could actually do something. The rail road guys got their time off. We could have that and more, but we need to bring *votes*. And for that we need organization.

    But we're all tech worker geniuses so we really, really hate working together. It makes it easy for the CEOs and C-suites to pick us off one by one.
    • Re:You can have them (Score:5, Interesting)

      by alvinrod ( 889928 ) on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:50AM (#63640528)
      I find it rather amusing that you support all manner of far-left policies, but that you're anti-immigration (or at least against the part of it that affects you personally) even though increasing skilled laborers is probably the best way to increase the tax base to pay for all of the other policies you want. Do your views also extend to other types of immigration?
      • I can't speak for rsilvergun. But I'm very liberal and very pro-immigration and I absolutely abhor the H1-B. For starters, it's exploitive to tie a person's right to stay in the country to one specific job. That makes the employer/employee power imbalance even more lopsided and is very often used to abuse and underpay people or to deny them the same benefit that locals get.

        But really... we DO need more STEM workers. What I'd prefer to see, instead of the "bring them, use them, send them away" H1-B visas, i

        • Fund Universities first restore the funding the right wing slashed in the early 2000s, use the extra money hitting our GDP to make college tuition free. Also do the same for healthcare. Do a housing guarantee too so Americans aren't afraid of homelessness after losing their jobs. Again, with the GDP shooting up that should be easy.

          Basically, if you want the pudding (immigration) you have to have the meat (stable living conditions for Americans). You can't just dump a huge amount of cheap labor into a do
          • Fund Universities first restore the funding the right wing slashed in the early 2000s, use the extra money hitting our GDP to make college tuition free. Also do the same for healthcare. Do a housing guarantee too so Americans aren't afraid of homelessness after losing their jobs. Again, with the GDP shooting up that should be easy.

            Why not just import a load of H1-B visas or any other skilled labor that will do the same without us having to pay the expenses? You never did actually answer my question either. Afraid of being labeled a racist or something like that? Why should Americans have to work hard jobs when immigrants can come here to do them and support our healthcare, housing, etc. costs?

            I'll freely admit that I'm trolling you because I'm quite sure you can't answer my question. Well not so much that you can't, but that you d

        • Re:You can have them (Score:5, Informative)

          by whoever57 ( 658626 ) on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:49PM (#63640910) Journal

          it's exploitive to tie a person's right to stay in the country to one specific job. That makes the employer/employee power imbalance even more lopsided and is very often used to abuse and underpay people or to deny them the same benefit that locals get.

          As a former H1B holder, I believe that the real problem is with the Green Card process. H1B holders can change jobs (I did), but applying for a Green Card can lock you into a specific employer for some time. When I changed jobs while in the country on an H1B, I had to abandon my Green Card application and start a new one.

          • So as an American the problem is that the wealth you generate doesn't make it to me. It all goes to the top. [time.com]

            So it's a lose lose for me. I live and breath by selling my labor. An increased supply of labor decreases the value of the only commodity I have to sell and directly hurts me.

            Also statistically you're liable to continue that process, because you're likely to be very conservative and prone to voting for pro-corporate policies. Again, maybe not you personally, but statistically. So that doesn't
  • by Murdoch5 ( 1563847 ) on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:35AM (#63640448) Homepage
    When we're living on a farm, that has world-class farmers, butchers and cooks available, why are we rushing to eat food scrap from the world's communal plate? The "tech" sector is overrun with low quality workers who plug up the system, waste resource, bog down teams, and make everyone miserable, all in the name of diversity and supplementing the talent pool.

    I live in Ontario, Canada, if I have to read another 200+ resumes that aren't worth the paper they're printed on, and engage with workers who can barely wipe their own butts, then what does it say about our pathetic workforce?

    The "tech" sector doesn't need more workers, it needs better quality workers. I don't care that I can find 200 people who apply to a job, when all 200 aren't worth an interview. It's gotten to the point that interviewing is basically a process to filter out trolls, because 99% of the people who we interview aren't quality, aren't able in mind or body, and certainly don't meet the most basic and generic concept of a skilled worker.
    • Two reasons, white demographic collapse and the fear Enoch Powell was right. A major western nation giving in to anti-immigrant sentiment while whites still hold so much power is dangerous ... so the only way forward is to double down.

  • H1b (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Impy the Impiuos Imp ( 442658 ) on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:36AM (#63640460) Journal

    How about normal Americans?

  • by ugen ( 93902 ) on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:48AM (#63640518)

    Is this limited specifically to H1B holders? Can I go as a US citizen?

  • by SvnLyrBrto ( 62138 ) on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @11:51AM (#63640530)

    That's the elephant in the room. I absolutely adore Vancouver and have had a couple of times already I've thought that things have gotten so bad here I should consider moving north. But, especially with Vancouver's real estate prices rivaling San Francisco's, the pay cut I'd have to take to move to Canada makes it prohibitive. So I've toughed it out every time so far. But the way things are going now (Specifically and particularly with the massive rash of hate, discrimination, and outright attacks against the LGBT community in the US.) the grass looks greener and greener every day. And if things go wrong in the 2024 election...

    I'd love for my escape to be: "Drive east to I-5. Turn left." But with the pay cut I'd take to goto Vancouver, the EU just makes a lot more sense. I have friends who've already relocated to Amsterdam. And, while lower, their pay is at least comparable to what they were making before they left.

    • Move to the Okanagan and get a remote job with a company that doesn't care what country you're in! (That's what I'm doing. To be fair, I've lived in Canada my whole life. But I did get to move away from Quebec to live a much more comfortable life here in wine country.)

  • Canada has its own employment issues where people fight to get tech jobs, I am sure this wonâ(TM)t backfire at all
  • H-1B job lock leads to the abuse!

  • Opinion (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ElizabethGreene ( 1185405 ) on Wednesday June 28, 2023 @01:02PM (#63640794)

    We could fix this and make life better for American and H1-B workers, but we won't.

    The problem with H1-B visas is they are tied to a specific employer. That means the visa holder is, effectively, an indentured servant to that employer. The most effective way to increase your wages in IT is to change companies. Denying this option to H1-B holders suppresses their wages and, by proxy suppresses the wages of American workers.

    If our esteemed representatives had a cephalanalectomy, they'd make a trivial change to the rules to allow guest workers to change jobs and/or live in the US for some double-digit number of days while looking for new work before shipping home. Within a week of that happening you'd see the big consultancy firms handing out raises to stop the ensuing mass exodus.

    I also think there should be a clear path to citizenship or permanent residency for guest workers, but that one is a much harder sell. Go Canada; Please force us to fix this.

  • H1-B workers must get paid at least double whatever the average American salary is in a given year. If they're that important, then they're worth it. ...Versus destroying American jobs in a malfunctioning system.

Truly simple systems... require infinite testing. -- Norman Augustine

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