UK Homes Install 'Record Number' of Solar Panels and Heat Pumps 98
British households are making more green energy upgrades than ever before after installing a record number of solar panels and heat pumps in the first half of the year, according to the industry's official standards body. From a report: The industry figures show there were more green energy installations in June than in previous years. On average, more than 17,000 households installed solar panels every month this year, while the number of homes installing heat pumps reached 3,000 a month for the first time, according to the data. Each month of 2023 was a record month for battery technologies, as installation figures consistently surpassed the month before, bringing the total number of batteries installed in homes and businesses across the UK to more than 1,000 in 2023 so far. The industry's accreditation body, MCS, said the green energy boom has put households on track to install more renewable energy than the last record set in 2012, when many raced to install solar panels before government subsidies were reduced.
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If only we could get Republicans here to do the same we would not have to face a future of certain death from climate change.
Perhaps you should set aside your preconceptions and do some fact-checking.
Red states are ahead of blue states on solar and wind installations.
Of course, they are doing it to save money rather than to save the environment. So if "purity of motive" is your top criterion, then I suppose those who do less still win.
Wind electricity generation by state [visualcapitalist.com]
Top ten solar states [seia.org]
Re:Saving the planet (Score:5, Insightful)
Interesting how California is a "red state" in your world. Or how it having more solar that #s 2-4 combined (and just slightly less than #s 2-5 combined) is somehow ignored.
I know for a fact that my red state is making it a spectacular pain in the ass for commercial wind and solar. Something about farmland being destroyed by farmers leasing their own land to renewable energy projects because, well, farming's all individual rights and liberty until you do something that the Trump-banner touters and their gerrymandered political districts don't like.
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The UK has a similar problem. It's difficult to stop people installing solar, although they did remove most of the incentives like a decent feed-in tariff. Commercial solar farms are very hard to get planning permission for.
Onshore wind is completely banned. Offshore is possible, but they are being very slow with the licences.
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Red state California is charging me LITERALLY $0.50/kWh for the wonderful free solar and wind energy I am receiving, with 6 hours worth of power outages last month during clear normal weather.
Re:Saving the planet (Score:5, Informative)
Red states are ahead of blue states on solar and wind installations. Of course, they are doing it to save money rather than to save the environment. So if "purity of motive" is your top criterion, then I suppose those who do less still win.
Wind electricity generation by state [visualcapitalist.com]
Top ten solar states [seia.org]
Looking at those lists of states, it seems to turn out that states with a lot of wind and high populations install a lot of wind power, and those with a lot of sunlight and high populations install a lot of solar power.
Who would have guessed?
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Hey, let's all invest in beachfront properties!
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Unlabelled map [Re:Saving the planet] (Score:2)
So this is a map of the world [oursolarenergy.com] showing the efficiency of solar power. The parts in red and orange solar makes more power than the PV panels require to construct.
Without a scale or any kind of legend on the map, it's not possible to determine that.
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It is a kind of average temperature map or something.
Has nothing to do with solar power.
Easy to spot if you know the "solar hot spots", and consider that e.g Antarcica and Siberia have superb sunny summers - and Alaska has the most sun hours in a year on the whole planet.
All of them are "blue" on the map. Makes no sense.
And basically everywhere where you can place a panel, the energy repay time is like 3years. On very good places, it is less.
He is just an brain washed idiot with no common sense
The lack of c
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Indeed. The GP also had to post the link just to an image, not any sort of article mentioning that.
For example, the first question I'd ask would be "over what sort of timeline?" Is red "energy payback in 1 year" and yellow "within 3 years", etc...? Why label the map as "solar power map heat"? Are the oceans actually universally deep "never pay back", as in the moment you take a solar panel over ocean it's no longer effective?
For example, while panels in Alaska won't do much for 3 months/year, and won't
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It's unfortunate that OP's chart is unlabeled but it's trivial to find a insolation maps:
https://solargis.com/maps-and-... [solargis.com]
https://solargis.com/maps-and-... [solargis.com]
No amount of "long hours" are going to help when the sun is at a very low angle and/or is under clouds the entire time. Check the scales, UK gets like half of solar energy compared to Spain.
There's no way any solar installation pays for itself in 1 year, or even 2, once real expenses and conditions are included. You can see a real installation is over 7-8
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Check your own map. Looking at the scales, the bottom production(north end) is 2.0, the top is 3.0.
Plus, well, what do you think I did when I looked up how much isolation there is between Fairbanks and Miami? Well, I grabbed a chart for them - note how your maps don't even cover Alaska(or the northern part of Canada).
I didn't say that the long hours help - I said that the long hours makes production more even. What helps is when the area is cold, which actually makes standard PV panels a few percent more
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Check your own map. Looking at the scales, the bottom production(north end) is 2.0, the top is 3.0.
I did look at my maps of course, for Spain the high end is 1900kWh/m2 and for UK 1100, and that's almost entirely on the south coast. That's much more than 50% higher, and by some estimates Spain is more than double:
UK: 0.7-1.1kWh/m2: https://www.engoplanet.com/sin... [engoplanet.com]
Spain: 1.5-3.6kWh/m2: https://www.researchgate.net/f... [researchgate.net]
Alaska is only partially in the World chart but the southern part looks pretty bad and similar to the UK.
I didn't say that the long hours help - I said that the long hours makes production more even. What helps is when the area is cold, which actually makes standard PV panels a few percent more efficient. While you get lots and lots and lots of solar isolation in, say, Death Valley, power production is actually a bit less there because the panels are so hot that they lose efficiency.
Fair enough, more even production is better but I don't think that and slightly high
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Fair enough, more even production is better but I don't think that and slightly higher efficiency offsets only making 1/2 to 1/3rd the net energy that you would in more appropriate climate.
When I looked - comparing fairbanks, AK with Miami, FL, the difference would be 66%, not 50 or 33%.
Now, yes, there is the legit argument that installing the solar panels in, say, Africa and using an undersea cable to bring the power to the UK would be cheaper for the power produced, but well, as you said, you were looking at economic payback, while I was in the headspace of the original poster, who was clearly talking about construction energy. Which even UK panels make back in a reasonable period of time.
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The angle does not matter, when you point the panels at that direction/angle - facepalm.
There's no way any solar installation pays for itself in 1 year, or even 2,
We talked about energy. Not price.
Energy wise it pays in less than 3 years.
Price wise it depends on your cost for energy in your grid. In Germany it pays out roughly after 7 years, without batteries and close to 10 years with batteries.
So my suggestion always is: build the panels now, add batteries in 5 or 7 years.
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For insolation maps you usually use "sun hours per year". ... completely useless to plan a solar installation.
The maps you pick are Watt per square meter
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Summers, yes, but during the winter it’s dark, so your panels are producing a few months per year and then they stop working. This is the same problem during day and night cycles, but can be solved by natural gas and oil burning power plants.
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The question if it is dark in winter depends on the place.
UK, Netherlands, north Germany: yes, it is cloudy.
Spain: nope.
Tunesia or Algeria or Thailand: nope.
Sibiria: depends how far below or above the arctic circle you are.
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Oh,
now as I look closer at it.
Surprisingly, you are right!
Re:Saving the planet (Score:4, Informative)
It takes on average 250kWh to produce 1m of crystalline silicon which when used produces about 100kWh/year so the payback period in electricity is 2.5 - 3 years. The same manufacturing process produces about 1.5 - 1.6 tons of CO2 (it's a bit dependent on the energy mix used during manufacturing) and the PV's will save about 0.9 tons/year which yields a CO2 payback within 2 years.
These numbers were relevant in 2008, increased yields and efficiencies since then means the payback period is now shorter almost regardless where the PV's are placed geographically within reason.
Source: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/1... [acs.org]
Re: Saving the planet (Score:1)
The big win is all the heat pumps, which are much more efficient than burning gas, oil, coal, whale blubber, or whatever it is they use over there.
Insulating would really help as well.
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It's true that solar panels aren't going to perform optimally anywhere in the UK, but every little bit helps when you need it.
Depends on what your goals are. If you believe in climate change and see it as an urgent issue then advocating, supporting or investing in rooftop solar represents a significant misallocation of limited resources which could otherwise have been used to effectively address the problem.
Re: Saving the planet (Score:1)
Are those panels enough to keep that heat pump running all on their own? Probably not, but any heat is better than no heat, and less stress on the electric grid is better than more stress.
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The parts in green and blue mean that the PV panels on average make less power than they take to construct.
That is most certainly not what the map says.
So all those solar panels installed in the UK actually make AGW worse
You are an idiot.
Home insulation is what is needed (Score:5, Insightful)
This would save a lot of energy and money — especially loft insulation [energysavers.org.uk]. It would also have avoided a panic last Winter when Putin switched off the gas supply. The government talks about this but does not invest what it should; yes middle class people like me can afford to do it but many poorer people cannot and they are the ones who suffer most from fuel poverty.
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I think the British public is sick of your stunts, they’ve been beating your kind up in the streets, how long before one of them mows you down with their gas-drive car.
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Only problem you can get is that apparently they can't install insulation properly, causing damp and mold:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-sc... [bbc.com]
Another would be that for attic insulation, is that insurers are paranoid about foam roofs. They've required a number of homes that installed sprayed foam, professionally, to remove it in order to get insurance(during a sale), because they "can't verify the integrity of the roof", because the installers didn't do enough documentation. Sorry, not finding that article ri
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But I've seen plenty of editorials saying that you are required BY LAW to grid-tie. You can't go independent. Which is utterly false. Just a lot more expensive.
Actually, as with most legal issues, it depends. I’ve heard some homeowners mention that their local jurisdictions require that they interconnect with the grid because a working grid connection is still required by regulatory code in their area (as an outdated means to ensure that all homes have electricity). Some said that they were allowed to immediately shut it off and never use it, but I believe I’ve seen some folks say that they were forced to be grid-tied in every sense.
You’re correc
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Well, this can also be like "waterless" urinals - in a lot of areas they still require there to be a pipe and stub in case you ever decide to take out the waterless urinal(they do take maintenance and are touchier than water using units).
But also as you mention - in a lot of areas while you need the connection up to the meter from the power company, past that you have zero obligation to actually use it. It's only if you want to take out the meter and line completely that you'll get yelled at.
But replacing
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> This means that yes, if you lose grid power, your solar won't be able to keep your house running even when the sun is up
In the UK that is the only offered option. You can have batteries but in a power cut the panel WONT charge them either.
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We could do with a one-off decision to level a huge area of countryside and build an entirely new city. Everything fully insulated, infrastructure planned from the start to make walking, cycling, public transport feasible. Compulsory purchase the worst parts of old cities that can't be brought up to modern standards and move people into the new city. Level the now empty parts of cities and build a mix of modern, well-constructed high-density housing, and parks and green-spaces. Fixing the problems with Brit
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UK housing stock is old and poorly designed/built, and not suitable for the climate changes we are experiencing. For example, many don't have windows on more than one side, especially flats (apartments in US English).
Insulation is the cheapest way to improve them for both cold and warm weather, but the government cancelled the programme that was helping upgrade homes over a decade ago.
Another issue is that we have a lot of terrace housing without any dedicated parking, and when parking is available it's oft
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> loft insulation
As a nipper in the 80's/90's I grew up in a house that used storage heaters.
I remember it being a little chilly at times in the evening once the heaters had cooled.
But I wasnt cold.
Why do I now feel like 21 deg C in my centrally heated house is bloody freezing in winder and comfortable in summer?
It's very interesting. I realised that I no longer wear a vest and frequently wear thinner clothing in winter. I used to as a kid wear thicker jumpers and socks but since getting used to the co
Heatpumps (Score:1)
Oh noes don't buy the heatpump because I live in the arctic and it will never work for you either and it's not just a air-conditioner in reverse and all that extra wear and tear kills babies n stuuufff. You should totally do this non-realistic thing that involves drilling into the ground. Oh noes I'll need supplemental heating because it's not a cure-all oh woes is us and it can only be the most polluting electric possible and not supplemental gas or oil all programmable by computers. Yeah we get it. You ha
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Too many early heatpump installers poisoned the well with their incompetence, installing hydronic systems with completely unsuited radiators. Everyone knows someone who knows someone who "had" to back out from the heatpump (they could have added some FCUs too, but they we're probably done with it). Causing a lot of the current myths dragging heatpumps down, like that you need floor heating or very high grade insulation (which beyond some low hanging fruit is very expensive for retrofits).
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Give me the 15k needed to install a heat pump and I'll bite.
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Ignoring for a moment the fact that not a single UK citizen lives in the Arctic... there's also the fact that there are hybrid heat pumps now. You can use gas or resistance heating to raise the incoming air temperature just enough for the heat pump to be effective. For example the Mitsubishi Hyperheat model is designed to be 100% effective down to -17 C and 85% effective down to -25 C. That would be sufficient for Anchorage Alaska.
At 85% heating capacity you might need a sweater indoors and could always
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Green intentions vs green results (Score:2)
Heat pumps in the UK are excellent ideas given mild winter climate.
Rooftop solar and batteries are poor investments that carry significant cost and carbon disadvantage vs investing in other renewable technologies such as wind or hell even utility PV.
I disapprove of over simplifications expressed in TFA "Small-scale renewable energy installations at homes and businesses across the UK now have a total capacity of 4 gigawatts (GW), greater than the nuclear power plant under construction at Hinkley Point ". Th
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Heat pumps in the UK are excellent ideas given mild winter climate.
They are an excellen tidea also for northern, colder climates. IMHO, labelling it "green energy upgrate" makes it sound expensive - it should be labeled "Cheap energy upgrade".
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Per home heatpumps are more of a hassle than tankless gas heating and hot water, suddenly you need a hot water tank, suddenly you have a significant noise source.
It would make far more sense to have per street ground source heatpumps providing hot, warm and chilled fluid loops. The drilling costs are far less per home, making it competetive, no noise, no tank, works with old radiators (though using heat from the hot loop would need to cost more than the warm loop). District ground source heating and cooling
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> Heat pumps in the UK are excellent ideas given mild winter climate.
Yet everyone rich enough for them says they dont work...
> Rooftop solar and batteries are poor investments
Yet they are actually affordable and dont require you to move out of the house while it is installed (unlike a heat pump).
Also, unlike a heat pump I'm legally permitted to actually install a solar panel. Unlike a heat pump which would be illegal for me to install on my house as its too THIN and thus I cant get the legal clearanc
They work as they are supposed to (Score:2)
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Are they not god awful ugly though?
I could probably install one legally in the UK on my THIN house (yes you read that correctly, too thin to be legal for most HP installs) but working in IT the last thing I want is a beige server room-esk blower stuck to the wall with conduits snaking all about the room.
US-centric much? It's market forces silly (Score:3)
Okay this is quite the USA centric rant, and frankly quite a bit of what you're saying is tosh because of that. The UK market is quite different and there's a few reasons why. People aren't doing this out of reasons of altruism they're doing it because it makes financial sense for them personally. Since the UK's own gas fields are drying up and because unlike Germany we have very little storage we're much more vulnerable to price swings. Gas boilers were a good fit for the past 50 odd years but as the pric
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Okay this is quite the USA centric rant, and frankly quite a bit of what you're saying is tosh because of that.
This is not USA centric, this is universal. A heat pump is an air conditioner and an air conditioner is a heat pump. We've all seen on Slashdot before on how "air conditioners" are evil because they contribute to global warming but for some reason nearly everyone on Slashdot is cheering that people in UK are buying "heat pumps" to fight global warming. This is bullshit and I'd expect the largely STEM centric audience of Slashdot to not be so easily duped.
Since the UK's own gas fields are drying up and because unlike Germany we have very little storage we're much more vulnerable to price swings. Gas boilers were a good fit for the past 50 odd years but as the price of gas has risen they have become less attractive. Fortunately they have to be replaced every ~10-15 years and folks are usually dumping them at that point.
UK still gets a large portion of their electricity
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I have a heat pump that is over 30 years old running right now. Heat pumps are neither new nor special, all my smarthome thermostats from X10 to Insteon to even the earliest Google and Ecobee offerings know how to run it.
People have been having them for decades, now people are more rich and more people can afford them, even Europeans that once couldn’t afford airconditioning can now get subsidies for a heat pump and run it through the winter and the summer, but in the winter, especially in colder clim
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I have a heat pump that is over 30 years old running right now. Heat pumps are neither new nor special, all my smarthome thermostats from X10 to Insteon to even the earliest Google and Ecobee offerings know how to run it.
Because I have an air source heat pump in a climate that gets well below freezing in winter I need a thermostat with an external temperature sensor and the ability to automatically switchover to backup heat when the temperature hits a switchover point. That feature is difficult to find in any thermostat sold to the general public. Professional installers obviously have no trouble obtaining these thermostats because the people that make the heat pumps are going to build their units to the capabilities of a
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That sensor is usually built into the outdoor unit, not part of the thermostat. It does have to be wired to the indoor unit to control the backup heat, but there's no real reason
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That sensor is usually built into the outdoor unit, not part of the thermostat.
Really? Prove it. Show me an installation manual, specification sheet, or other similar document for an air source heat pump that has the outdoor temperature sensor as part of the outdoor unit. Maybe you can find one as a fluke, because there's going to be one oddball unit somewhere so can you find three? I have a very popular brand of heat pump, Goodman, and it had no temperature sensor in the outdoor unit. The thermostat is from Honeywell. I did a quick check of the new units on the market from the
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Really? Prove it. Show me an installation manual, specification sheet, or other similar document for an air source heat pump that has the outdoor temperature sensor as part of the outdoor unit. Maybe you can find one as a fluke, because there's going to be one oddball unit somewhere so can you find three? I have a very popular brand of heat pump, Goodman, and it had no temperature sensor in the outdoor unit. The thermostat is from Honeywell. I did a quick check of the new units on the market from the same manufacturers just to see if in the years since things changed and there's no change.
I just randomly did an Internet search for the installer manual for Goodman units. You can do the same for the condenser of your specific model.
It's on page 6. This particular one uses a dumb timer set with dip switches for defrost cycle instead of sensors.
https://hvacdirect.com/media/h... [hvacdirect.com]
For the traditional noncommunicating interfaces all of the stats work this way. There is no signaling or logic in the stat to manage defrost cycle. If you still have doubts check the manual for your stat. You will see
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I am aware of the defrost timer on my heat pump. First, that is not relevant to protecting the unit from being powered up in temperatures cold enough to freeze the refrigerant in the coils. It is vital to prevent damage that the unit not be run in such low temperatures. Second, running a defrost cycle on a timer is far from optimal in maintaining efficiency. The margins on saving money by running a heat pump instead of natural gas heat is so thin that it is simply cheaper to run a natural gas furnace th
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I am aware of the defrost timer on my heat pump. First, that is not relevant to protecting the unit from being powered up in temperatures cold enough to freeze the refrigerant in the coils.
Refrigerant does not "freeze". Your condenser manual provides details on relevant operating conditions.
Second, running a defrost cycle on a timer is far from optimal in maintaining efficiency.
This is best considered prior to purchasing a system. Normally too late after the fact.
The margins on saving money by running a heat pump instead of natural gas heat is so thin that it is simply cheaper to run a natural gas furnace than invest in a professional installation of a thermostat with an external temperature sensor. If I can't get the right kind of thermostat for less than $200 or so and put it in myself then the payback period is so long that fuel and/or electricity rates could shift enough to destroy any cost savings.
You're inventing both a problem and solution that doesn't exist. Refrigerant does not "freeze" and there are no stats capable of triggering a defrost cycle.
There's all kinds of "hacks" to get heat pumps to work marginally well but none will likely save money for the homeowner long term. Natural gas is still too cheap. Does this mean heat pumps "work"? Yes, they work in that they produce heat. What they won't do is save money long term or save on CO2 emissions.
Typically for mild climates heat pump will always be a clear unambiguous winner. Things get murky below COP 3.0 in terms of energy costs and carbon calculations i
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The backup heat kicks in when the outdoor temperature gets too cold, mine does it, there is a simple relay for that on the heater unit that sends the signal to either the heater or the heat pump based on a simple thermocouple to the outside. The heat pump also has a safety so the same thermocouple makes sure the relay doesn’t engage when it’s too cold outside.
Again, my unit is 30 years old, the thermostat when I purchased the house was powered by mercury bulbs which regulated both heat and cold
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The backup heat kicks in when the outdoor temperature gets too cold, mine does it, there is a simple relay for that on the heater unit that sends the signal to either the heater or the heat pump based on a simple thermocouple to the outside.
Yep, and none of that says if this equipment came as standard with the heat pump, if the installer had to put it in afterwards, where to get it, who can get it, how easily this equipment can be found by DIY installers, or any other issue I raised.
The heat pump also has a safety so the same thermocouple makes sure the relay doesnâ(TM)t engage when itâ(TM)s too cold outside.
Just because it is there doesn't mean it came with the heat pump, the installer almost certainly put it there.
This is not common equipment held on the shelf at Home Depot. Why would that be? Likely because heat pumps are not popular for heating in cold climates,
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As far as the equipment, they are indeed just air conditioners with a few extra relays. I’ve taken my system completely apart and repaired, the parts are easy to find, the airco units have the same boards but with less parts on it. For a layman, I guess it can be difficult to find if you believe the bullshit from the repair people, the guy that inspected the unit during the sale said the same thing, I have a degree in electronics, I can replicate the entire thing with a common Arduino, literally NOTHI
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For a layman, I guess it can be difficult to find if you believe the bullshit from the repair people
I have a common-as-dirt air source heat pump, and I researched what I needed to protect this heat pump from running in cold weather. Argue if you like on if this is to protect the heat pump from damage or to merely save money on heating costs but the result is the same, I needed a device that was capable of selecting between the heat pump and furnace based on outside temperature. Again, it is not all that relevant on if this ability to switch over automatically was to protect the heat pump or save money,
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I got my repair parts from RepairClinic.com - fast, cheap and they have virtually everything available. Even if it’s not the exact model, I found out that with appliances, manufacturers use the same parts for sometimes decades, all the modern IoT crap is literally bolted on top of a 20 year old control panel. So when the circuit panel for the outdoor unit was shorted and traces eaten by a (decomposing) snake, looked for a panel that was very similar to mine (same connectors), which was from the same b
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Because I have an air source heat pump in a climate that gets well below freezing in winter I need a thermostat with an external temperature sensor and the ability to automatically switchover to backup heat when the temperature hits a switchover point. That feature is difficult to find in any thermostat sold to the general public.
I can find thermostats built for "heat pumps" all day but all that means is they can control two separate heat sources, it does not mean they have built in functions to protect air source heat pumps from freezing up.
Do not tell me there are numerous examples of compatible thermostats available. At a minimum they must have an exterior temperature sensor to get an accurate reading on if it is safe to run the heat pump. Getting the temperature over the internet doesn't cut it because that can still fail in any of a number of ways.
Defrost cycle is handled internally by the equipment with coil mounted sensors or internal timers NOT the stat. The equipment is supposed to protect itself from frosting up. Outdoor temp doesn't really mean anything with regards to defrost.. Coils can easily frost up well above freezing and other factors such as outdoor RH play a key role in determining how often defrost cycles occur.
The point at which secondary heating source is required because the heat pump can't keep up doesn't require an outdoor sens
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Defrost cycle is handled internally by the equipment with coil mounted sensors or internal timers NOT the stat.
Water freezing outside the coils has nothing to do with the refrigerant freezing inside the coils. It just happens that the refrigerant freezing happens to occur after the water outside the coils is frozen.
The outdoor sensor is used neither for protecting the equipment or determining when heat pump is required.
If the goal is keeping the heat pump operating at anything close to optimal efficiency then knowing the outdoor temperature is very important. Getting the temperature "wrong enough" means the heat pump gets destroyed.
This is a condition detected as part of the control loop in the stat.
That's fine but can anyone find such a thermostat available to the DIY homeowner? Ther
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If the goal is keeping the heat pump operating at anything close to optimal efficiency then knowing the outdoor temperature is very important. Getting the temperature "wrong enough" means the heat pump gets destroyed.
I don't know jack about internal control loops for heat pumps. What I do know is all the stat actually does is command the pump to go on and off and select between heat and cool with 1-3 levels of staging if you are lucky. The internal control logic of the heat pump is separate from the stat. The internal logic of the heat pump exclusively manages defrost. The stat has NO ROLE in commanding a defrost cycle.
When using an air source heat pump the outdoor temperature is very important in knowing if there is a risk of the refrigerant being frozen inside the coils.
Yea no it doesn't work like that. Refrigerant doesn't freeze. You might get moisture in the line
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Yea no it doesn't work like that. Refrigerant doesn't freeze.
Really? Open a chemistry book sometime, I assure you it will tell you the conditions in which refrigerants will freeze.
Reading about this some more the refrigerants don't need to freeze to damage the heat pump, only be liquid where it is not supposed to be. Run a compressor with a liquid inside, an incompressible fluid, and it could sustain damage. It is the responsibility of the installer to put in the required protections on the heat pump for the refrigerant getting too cold. A big reason for that is
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Really? Open a chemistry book sometime, I assure you it will tell you the conditions in which refrigerants will freeze.
You open it and tell me what temperature the specific refrigerant in your unit freezes. It's well below any temperature your condenser will ever experience that's for fucking sure.
Reading about this some more the refrigerants don't need to freeze to damage the heat pump, only be liquid where it is not supposed to be. Run a compressor with a liquid inside, an incompressible fluid, and it could sustain damage.
Yea no I'm not going to accept you moving the goal posts at this point.
Issues with liquid in the compressor have shit to do with the outside air temps which is what you've been claiming is the problem all along. It only happens when something is fucked up in the system (airflow, component failure, Iow charge...etc)
An easy way to prevent the heat pump from freezing the refrigerant is to never run it to provide heat
Genius.
You believe I didn't? How do you think I found out about the dangers of the refrigerants freezing?
Prove i
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Cite a source supporting any of what you are saying.
Have you cited any sources yet? No, so why should I? Also, trust me, I've been looking but a lot of noise has been added to the signal since.
Searching for how cold temperatures could damage heat pumps keeps turning up results on how heat pumps lose efficiency rather than face any actual damage. This tells me that it is highly likely that owners and installers got a lot more conservative on the safety margins for heat pumps. Falling natural gas prices will do that. Also a likely cause is recent problems
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Have you cited any sources yet? No, so why should I?
The fuck yes I have. You asked for a source and I provided links to manuals that shows how the defrost feature operates in the condenser unit. You appear to have ignored it outright and instead elected to fight with me over other irrelevant aspects you subsequently found in the manual and promptly took out of context.
Now I ask you for a source and you shit all over me.
You are the one making outrageous claims that refrigerant freezing is a problem that requires temperature sensors to manage. Of course you
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We dont have aircon in the UK because it dont make sense most of the year.
When it is hot, sometimes in summer, yes it will get turned on. The rest of the year it will be off, so maybe it will get used a couple of weeks every year?
We have aircon in our cars, if you bother to fix them all the time because they always are braking. My cars aircon hasnt worked in about 7 years, I simply cant be arsed to fix it AGAIN. One stone is all it takes and bang, your evapourator is gone and all the refigerant is too.
S
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Aircon rarely makes sense in the UK, heat pumps have the same issues only worse in that it will cost you £15k to install one.
That's clearly not true because we all just read an article about how people in the UK are buying heat pumps in record numbers. This means people are finding them practical, affordable, not some noise or space violation, and just generally useful.
My point is that there's many people on this planet, and certainly on Slashdot, which will claim air conditioners will be the end of us all (perhaps I exaggerate some) while celebrating the installation of more people buying what are air conditioners by a differen
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Well, it's a little more than that. It needs a reversing valve and the piping and the refrigerant charge and coils have to be designed for handling different temperatures/pressures and a wider range of them.
That complex (program
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You can get heat pumps now that work down to -13F (-25C) or colder outdoors., but properly sized a heat pump can heat your house almost all of the year in the midwest, using the backup only on the coldest days. (more standard old-style heat pumps that only work down to about 23F (-5C) before defrost cycles are worse than straight electric heat are cheaper, though)
This is mostly marketing bullshit. Yes it will work at full or slightly derated capacity but the COP will be so low it becomes quite a bit cheaper to run gas even though the heat pump still "works". Remember at least one well known vendor even had harebrained scheme of driving the compressor to intentionally generate resistive heat and then turned around and marketed it as a feature. Turboheat or some such bullshit. Look ma no heat strips.
Advanced technology cannot bypass underlying physical reality. It
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Well, it's a little more than that.
Sure, very very little.
That complex (programmable) thermostat is not complicated much by it being for a heat pump, but more just a selling point to wow you with the things it can do. Just about any combination heating/cooling thermostat could do if wired properly.
Really? Prove it. Give a link to a web page, PDF, or whatever showing how I can wire up common-as-dirt $30 Home Depot thermostat to operate any heat pump. I know it can be done, I just need a $300 control board in the circuit. The entire point of a thermostat built for heat pumps is so installers aren't putting some additional control unit in the system to make things more expensive, more work, and more complicated than it must be. The reason a control board would be $300 is beca
As I thought (Score:1)
> while the number of homes installing heat pumps reached 3,000 a month for the first time
Oooooh 3000 p/m. A slight increase from nothing turns out to be, nothing. How long will it take to install a practically useless and terribly expensive bit of kit into every household: 25 million homes / 3000 p/m = just shy of 700 years.
However, we are including all houses and there is a large portion of those 25 million that cant have a HP at all. Considering that even though I have a garden, I cant have a HP ins
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How big do you think a heat pump for a small house is? It could easily be brought through doorways on a hand cart or dolly.
I have a weather-related question... (Score:1)
Why am I asking? Oh, no reason. Just wondered.