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Earth Transportation

After Hurricane-Caused Flooding, Some EVs Exposed To Saltwater Caught Fire (cbsnews.com) 193

CBS News reports: Floridians battered by Hurricane Idalia this week may not have expected another threat — that floodwaters could cause their cars to suddenly burst into flames. Yet that's exactly what happened when two electric vehicles caught fire after being submerged in saltwater churned up by the storm...

"If you own a hybrid or electric vehicle that has come into contact with saltwater due to recent flooding within the last 24 hours, it is crucial to relocate the vehicle from your garage without delay," the fire department said in a Facebook post. "Saltwater exposure can trigger combustion in lithium-ion batteries. If possible, transfer your vehicle to higher ground." The warning also applies to electric golf carts, scooters and bicycles, with lithium-ion batteries potentially sparking a fire when they get wet. More specifically, salt residue remains after the water dries out and can create "bridges" between the battery's cells, potentially creating electrical connections that can spark a fire.

Fire crews were actually towing one of the vehicles when it burst into flames, the article points out. And EV manufacturers want people to take the possibility seriously: Tesla warns car owners about the risks of vehicle submersion and advises against driving a car that has been flooded. "Treat your vehicle as if it has been in an accident and contact your insurance company," the company says in its guidance for handling a submerged vehicle.
Thanks to long-time Slashdot reader schwit1 for sharing the article.
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After Hurricane-Caused Flooding, Some EVs Exposed To Saltwater Caught Fire

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  • Question (Score:4, Interesting)

    by quonset ( 4839537 ) on Sunday September 03, 2023 @05:56PM (#63820520)

    If you live along one of the coasts salt is almost always in the air, even higher amounts during storms. Would exposure to salt air on a continual basis have the same effect?

    • Re:Question (Score:5, Informative)

      by dsgrntlxmply ( 610492 ) on Sunday September 03, 2023 @06:45PM (#63820636)
      Long ago, living in coastal California, I did not see evidence of salt corrosion in any electrical or mechanical parts of the car, but a combination of sand hits and salt spray put numerous tiny pits in aluminum and chrome plated trim. SCE regularly sent spray trucks to rinse coastal power line insulators, and one could hear sizzle and pop around coastal power poles during quiet times. During trips to Maui or Kauai, I noticed that coastal telephone repeater cases there were stainless steel things resembling cake covers, with gasket seals and clamps. GTE would not have spent on that unless it was proven necessary.
    • Short circuiting the battery causes the fire. Salt turns water into a better conductor, due to water ionizing the sodium and chlorine atoms. Salt alone isn't a conductor.
      • >"Salt alone isn't a conductor."

        Water, alone, also isn't a conductor. But water is so good at dissolving things, it almost always has ions present that make it a conductor.

      • I don't think this is what is happening. I think the battery cases dissolve. If they were just short-circuiting it would happen immediately upon getting immersed in water or immediately after.
    • Re:Question (Score:5, Interesting)

      by subreality ( 157447 ) on Sunday September 03, 2023 @06:54PM (#63820668)

      My experience living on the coast is the salt spray eats everything exposed on the outside. Wheel wells rust out. Any scratch in the paint will rust. But it doesn't get deep inside. Up above the frame is sheltered enough from the wind that it wasn't a problem. On an EV I would expect the bottom of the battery box to corrode, but as long as it doesn't rust through, the interior should be fine.

      • Re:Question (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Train0987 ( 1059246 ) on Sunday September 03, 2023 @06:56PM (#63820672)

        Northern snowy climates are much worse on vehicles because of the salt they put on the roads.

      • Having worked for Freightliner ( Class 8 truck manufacture ) on dashboard electronics back in the day, they encapsulated all of their circuit boards to prevent corrosion and intermittent problems ( even though a Class 8 dashboard is 8' up in the air ). OTOH my 2004 GMC Yukon had a flakey instrument cluster. Pulled it out and nothing but raw circuit boards everywhere. Ended up replacing the poor quality stepper motors that were used originally. Not having an encapsulated instrument cluster made de-solder
        • Re:Question (Score:5, Insightful)

          by ctilsie242 ( 4841247 ) on Monday September 04, 2023 @03:24AM (#63821360)

          Part of it is how some automakers have moved ECUs from inside the firewall (where it is climate controlled usually, and out of the elements) into the engine compartment, where they are exposed to salt, road grime, and whatever splashes up.

          Potting or a conformal coating is a double-edged sword. On one hand, it makes resoldering components difficult to impossible, but on the other hand, it can prevent issues in the first place by keeping stuff from being able to get to the board in the first place, as well as help with heat issues.

          On one hand, automotive design is a solved problem. There are ways to make vibration resistant harnesses, pot boards to ensure that even direct contact with salt spray won't cause issues, keep all the critical stuff on the other side of the engine firewall, and in some cases, even using fiber optics for communication to ensure voltage issues fry fewer parts. However, in the pressure to make things cheaper, these basic things tend to get thrown out the window, just because it is a good way to sell more cars. "The car's computer is fried, sorry, nothing we can do except offer $250 for the trade-in value, and we have some new models you only have to wait four months for, selling for just $5,000 over sticker."

    • Re:Question (Score:4, Informative)

      by mysidia ( 191772 ) on Sunday September 03, 2023 @07:24PM (#63820724)

      Would exposure to salt air on a continual basis have the same effect?

      Not sufficiently to cause a hazard. You would need to have Salt and Water collecting on the unit at the same time. Also material from the air such as humidity is so low in amount, that if the air actually deposited enough water to form a weak electrical contact - the extra heat would allow that humidity to evaporate right back out, so that a sufficient amount of water never collects to cause a higher current.

      In a humid environment with salt in the air will likely give you energy loss and extra discharge of the batteries (Plus extra corrosion) over a longer period of time due to conductivity between poles and corrosion, But not big enough acutely to actually short cells.

    • I don't think so. My operating theory is that a battery constructed of cylindrical cells and inundated with saltwater will experience rapid corrosion of the cell cases (which are made of metal and connected to the negative battery terminal) because of electrolytic action. Coastal seasalt aerosols probably can't get in to the battery pack the way saltwater can when immersed. And in any event it takes more than just a salty film. You need water to make sure that the cells can rapidly disintegrate into the sol
    • Re:Question (Score:4, Informative)

      by mjwx ( 966435 ) on Monday September 04, 2023 @07:44AM (#63821700)

      If you live along one of the coasts salt is almost always in the air, even higher amounts during storms. Would exposure to salt air on a continual basis have the same effect?

      This is why you've got to really check for rust on a car that's been living by the coast.

      However I highly doubt exposure to salty air is going to cause any issues with lithium based batteries, otherwise we'd have regular reports of laptops and phones catching fire in seaside towns. The issue is that the cells were submerged in salt water, not just the corrosivity of it, but it's also a conductor so can easy create the kind of shorts and voltage issues that cause lithium based batteries to conflagrate.

  • Is there a surprise? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by lsllll ( 830002 ) on Sunday September 03, 2023 @06:02PM (#63820532)
    With salt water to lower resistance on the terminals, corrode things, and lithium's reactivity with water, something like that is inevitable. A vehicle that has been submerged in water usually gets either a salvage title or a water-damage title. The real question is how to properly dismantle the batteries and connectors to stop the fires from happening.
  • I wouldn't want to be in an electric vehicle if it is submerged or awash
    • I would not want to be any vehicle under those conditions. Still immersing a high-capacity battery in a conductive solution sounds like a really bad idea. It is a formula for a short circuit. I would think that any EV or hybrid that was been subjected to saltwater immersion should be totaled and the battery decommissioned.
      • Re:submerged (Score:5, Interesting)

        by stooo ( 2202012 ) on Monday September 04, 2023 @02:30AM (#63821274) Homepage

        >> I would think that any EV or hybrid that was been subjected to saltwater immersion should be totaled and the battery decommissioned.

        Any immersed car is totaled.
        EV or not, saltwater or not.
        The water just enters and corrodes everything.
        People reselling those cars to unsuspecting people put those people in danger.

  • "Some"? Two! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by whoever57 ( 658626 ) on Sunday September 03, 2023 @06:11PM (#63820556) Journal

    The article cites only two actual cars bursting into flames.

    This is just a FUD article.

    • Yes, so by all means, we should ignore a fairly obvious failure mode until more people get killed.

  • Jeremy hates electrics anyway.

  • by couchslug ( 175151 ) on Sunday September 03, 2023 @06:34PM (#63820616)

    Salt water is amazingly destructive to automobiles and immersion merits scrapping. Unscrupulous resellers will always try to profit from flood cars but many parts like electronics are ruined when immersed.

    • by jezwel ( 2451108 )
      There's a Youtuber that's rebuilding a flood immersed McLaren, and the primary reason is the rarity of the car. For anything run of the mill it should be scrapped.
  • Why isn't "when water reaches X level, initiate battery disconnect and seal off connectors" the captain obvious solution?

    • by CAIMLAS ( 41445 )

      What do you think it is, a Starfleet shuttle?

      The best technology we have for that is what's called a breaker (or a fuse).

      The problem is that EVs are effectively made of lithium: a metal which reacts explosively to water.

      Add electrical current (ie a battery) and you'll get rapid corrosion and exposure to the elements. Instant fire.

      • by sxpert ( 139117 )

        there is, at most, a kg of lithium in an electric car...

      • This is really not true at all. There is no metallic lithium inside the cell. It is dissolved in an electrolyte. If metallic lithium plates out in the cell, the cell is doomed and dangerous but that should not normally happen. I think what is happening is that the cell cases are getting dissolved, exposing the interior of the cell to mechanical damage and short circuiting. Something along those lines.
  • Look up the YouTuber Adam Something. He's got several good videos explaining why cars will never solve the problems with transportation that a modern civilization has. Because we all grew up with the things we don't really consider what we've had to give up in order to have them. Things like the enormous amount of real estate devoted to parking or the heat Islands in our cities that can't be eliminated let alone the hours and hours spent in traffic. And that's all before we consider that the majority of smo
    • by magzteel ( 5013587 ) on Sunday September 03, 2023 @08:24PM (#63820844)

      The Way Forward is walkable cities

      There is the theoretical utopian walkable city where everyone is super nice and everything is clean and the weather is always pleasant.
      Then there is the reality of city congestion, predators, and crap weather to contend with.

      You can have it, but I'm never moving there.

      • That's it. I'm moving to Lake Wobegon tomorrow!

      • So if you're talking about people being nice when I'm guessing you're worried about is crime and I'm guessing that's because you're thinking like the sort of person who did a classic white flight. That's only a problem when you abandoned the cities to poverty because you consider some citizens to not deserve a decent quality of life. It's a problem that is completely solved by guaranteeing all citizens and acceptable quality of life.

        As for poor weather we live in the year of our Lord 2023 and there's th
        • by rossdee ( 243626 )

          I'd rather walk when it was snowing than when it was raining.
          And I do - its only a mile to where I work.

          Oh and umbrellas don't work when its windy.

        • So if you're talking about people being nice when I'm guessing you're worried about is crime and I'm guessing that's because you're thinking like the sort of person who did a classic white flight. That's only a problem when you abandoned the cities to poverty because you consider some citizens to not deserve a decent quality of life. It's a problem that is completely solved by guaranteeing all citizens and acceptable quality of life.

          As for poor weather we live in the year of our Lord 2023 and there's this glorious invention called the umbrella. When you're talking about a walkable City you're talking about a city that you really can just walk anywhere you need to be. Sure there will be places you want to be that are further away but need to be will be in walking distance. So the short of being snowed in there's no problems and if you're snowed in you aren't getting in your car, electric or otherwise.

          Here's a nice walkable city for you that I'm never living in: https://www.fox29.com/news/for... [fox29.com] , "I did a year in a war zone in Iraq, did 2 years in Ukraine, and would not have expected this to happen in my own neighborhood,"

          I grew up in a very walkable city. It was crowded and dirty and dangerous decades ago, and it's a lot worse in every way now. You can have it, it's my gift to you. I'm done with subway trains and city busses and knowing which streets have the most dangerous alleys and everything bein

      • by bidule ( 173941 )

        That's weird, the office is a 20min drive and almost everything else is a 10min walk.
        I guess I should wake up and join your dystopian nightmare.

        • by sxpert ( 139117 )

          why would you need to go to the office, apart to satisfy the real estate fantasies of thos multinational corporations that possess those office buildings ?

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Walkable doesn't mean you can't get on public transport, it just means that public transport doesn't have to go right to your door or the door of the place you are visiting.

        Japan is a great example of that. It has an excellent rail network, which is joined to an excellent bus network. Together they mean you can go most places easily without a car, and a little bit of walking. In fact, it's often faster than trying to get through traffic in the big cities.

    • The Way Forward is walkable cities

      While it is a way forward, it is unlikely to be the way forward for one simple reason: time. The first walkable city required a concerted effort over 20 years before it was walkable. That of course only happened because the people in it wanted it to be walkable.

      What is currently happening is science and engineering are pushing the development of solid state batteries forward. They are considerably lighter and don't have the thermal runaway problem which also makes them easier to manufacture.

      Never mind the fact that we are rapidly getting to the point where cars are too expensive for rank and file citizens to own without sacrificing every other aspect of their quality of life.

      I bought a used

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by rsilvergun ( 571051 )
        My point I guess is that electric vehicles don't actually solve any problems whatsoever. They don't reduce pollution or smog to any noticeable degree unless you could deploy them in semi trucks which currently you cannot (they can't haul enough load for the range). For smaller vehicles they already have little or no emissions. And the pollution vehicles create is coming from tires not from the emissions.

        You might find that an EV makes economic sense for you personally but that's only because of a massiv
        • unless you could deploy them in semi trucks which currently you cannot (they can't haul enough load for the range).

          Yes, trains are preferable to trucks. Long haul trucking needs to be done away with.

          You might find that an EV makes economic sense for you personally but that's only because of a massive amount of subsidies and externalized costs that aren't sustainable.

          You act as if the cost of batteries hasn't been plummeting.

          The whole system isn't sustainable. It's either going to collapse when...

          "Men and nations do the right thing when they have exhausted all other options," which means the deal shall be altered. Also, if you hadn't noticed, work-from-home was just proven to be a viable option and has taken root.

          or it's going to become a rather horrible dystopia...

          What do you mean become? The dystopian present is upon us. The current economic system is a powder keg and it's going to explode in an uncontrollabl

          • So it's not that the cost barriers have been plummeting it's that the cost of automobiles and shooting up so fast that EVs look affordable by comparison. Back in the mid '80s up through the 90s you can find a functional four-door sedan new. For around 10 to 15,000. It wasn't great and it was a pain in the ass to merge on the highway because it didn't have a lot of power but it would get you to and from work. Now you'd be lucky to get a hatchback for 18K. And the used market is terrible. Cars hold their valu
            • by dgatwood ( 11270 )

              And the used market is terrible. Cars hold their value entirely too long now because people are holding on the cars longer because of the higher costs. It's fine to say that they last longer but that's not a help if you're just starting out in life and you're facing the lower pay that the kids get versus their parents and grandparents.

              What's "entirely too long"? People hold on to their cars longer because they last longer. So if the cars last twice as long and hold their value twice as long, then that just means that people with limited income have to buy used cars that are twice as old to get them at the equivalent price, but they'll still last twice as long once they buy them on the used market, so they're still probably better off, assuming you don't run into something idiotic, such as a state refusing to license a car older than a

    • Electric cars are not meant to solve transportation problems. They're meant to solve oil dependence and carbon emissions problems, which they do. I'd much rather have great public transit to where you don't even need a car for intra-city travel; but failing that, I'll take an electric car.

      And yes, I've watched Adam Something's videos.

      • You might have a point but the problem is that we have other much bigger problems that need to be solved that EVs don't fix. And it's not a good short-term fix for the problems that you're discussing since it's going to be a massive undertaking to replace our gas based fleets with electric cars.

        And of course unless we can find a good source for the materials needed for the batteries we're just trading one dependency for another.
        • You might have a point but the problem is that we have other much bigger problems that need to be solved that EVs don't fix.

          Again, EVs only solve -- and are only intended to solve -- the two problems I listed previously. Alleging that EVs are proffered by some to solve more that those two problems only so you can retort they don't solve those problems is disingenuous.

    • The Way Forward is walkable cities.

      I didn't just walk out of the city, I drove out of it as fast as possible without breaking any speed laws. The only appeal of city living is that it might have good Internet. I live in the suburbs, and have gigabit fiber. If I could have that out on a couple hundred acres, I would be in heaven.

    • what nonsense. public transportation means no one has to walk, and cars can be self-driving and form trains with either ICE or electric vehicles in a city to make a similar thing.

      walking everywhere is for savages. being penned in to a few miles is for medieval peasants.

    • by lsllll ( 830002 )

      Look up the YouTuber Adam Something. He's got several good videos explaining why cars will never solve the problems with transportation that a modern civilization has. Because we all grew up with the things we don't really consider what we've had to give up in order to have them. Things like the enormous amount of real estate devoted to parking or the heat Islands in our cities that can't be eliminated let alone the hours and hours spent in traffic. And that's all before we consider that the majority of smog in your city is little particulates of tires. Seriously Google it.

      If that isn't a load of horseshit, I don't know what is. I looked up some of his videos. How suburbs destroyed America [youtube.com] is one. I think you're looking at the problem as just a city dweller. Yes. Cars in the city are a PITA. But there's a whole style of living outside of cities and Adam Something's video which I linked to above is full of lies regarding the suburbs. I don't have the energy to dissect that video, but even if I did it's not worth my time. FYI: most people live outside of cities, at leas

    • The Way Forward is walkable cities.

      A walkable city doesn't solve my 50km commute to the middle of bumfuck nowhere where it doesn't make sense to run train or bus services.

      Even people who promote walkable cities recognise there's a place for cars in their utopian world.

    • by sinij ( 911942 )

      The Way Forward is ...

      Another true believer proselytizing to us, the unwashed masses, the secret to salvation after a lot of penance.

    • That's just his individual, highly biased opinion. Remember, opinions are like a$$holes - everyone has one, and most stink.
    • by dgatwood ( 11270 ) on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:14AM (#63821120) Homepage Journal

      Look up the YouTuber Adam Something. He's got several good videos explaining why cars will never solve the problems with transportation that a modern civilization has. Because we all grew up with the things we don't really consider what we've had to give up in order to have them. Things like the enormous amount of real estate devoted to parking

      ...which is kind of unavoidable at a lot of stores. Ever try to carry lumber or a new oven on a New York subway? Bus? Uber? The fact of the matter is that most stores that have a lot of parking also have people buying a lot of stuff at once, and it isn't really practical to remove that parking no matter what you do.

      And the folks who say, "Shop at your small local grocer" are really saying "Pay 50% more (at least) for everything you buy." Big box stores are able to provide low markup precisely because they're able to sell in volume, but that means they have to sell to a lot of people, which means they're geographically distributed, and are almost certainly not walking distance from your apartment. And you can't bring a grocery cart on public transit. So the reality is that those big parking lots (or at the very least parking garages) really aren't avoidable in the real world.

      or the heat Islands in our cities that can't be eliminated

      ... and won't go away no matter what you replace the roads with, because the heat islands are principally caused by having buildings so close together that they prevent airflow to cool down everything, including the buildings themselves. They're a fundamental property of high-density living, and any alternative to individual vehicles inherently requires high-density living, so complaining about cars as if eliminating cars and roads would somehow fix the heat island problem is downright backwards. The heat island effect is caused by people not spreading out enough for cars to be required.

      let alone the hours and hours spent in traffic. And that's all before we consider that the majority of smog in your city is little particulates of tires. Seriously Google it.

      Meh. Traffic and smog are both caused by having too many people in too small a space. And no, tires are not a majority of smog. Depending on which study you believe, the total percentage of particulates from cars could be anywhere from 15% [washingtonpost.com] to 52% [greencarreports.com], but most of that comes from brakes, not tires. And thanks to regenerative braking, that portion is on its way down.

      The critical component for smog, of course, is ozone. And again, as EVs replace ICE cars, that's on its way down, too.

      So basically, your reasoning is a decade out of date at this point.

      And of course, given that half the particulates come from something other than cars, arguing that eliminating cars solves the problem seems prima facie absurd. Smog is an urban problem caused by having too many people living too close together. The way to solve that is to spread out more.

      Never mind the fact that we are rapidly getting to the point where cars are too expensive for rank and file citizens to own without sacrificing every other aspect of their quality of life.

      In pretty much any medium-sized city, you can find literally hundreds of used cars for under $2,000, which is likely less than you'd pay for a year worth of public transit fares. To be fair, that's not the total cost, because you also have fuel and insurance and maintenance, but that's also probably only 20% of the real cost of that public transit fare, were it not being massively subsidized by taxpayer dollars. In fact, in some cities, it would actually be chea

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Ever try to carry lumber or a new oven on a New York subway? Bus? Uber? The fact of the matter is that most stores that have a lot of parking also have people buying a lot of stuff at once, and it isn't really practical to remove that parking no matter what you do.

        Such stores in Japan often partner with local delivery companies, or will even lend you a van for free for an hour. Any cost is typically more than offset by not having to own a huge truck all the time.

        And the folks who say, "Shop at your small local grocer" are really saying "Pay 50% more (at least) for everything you buy."

        In the UK we have local branches of big supermarkets, who have the same prices.

        heat islands are principally caused by having buildings so close together that they prevent airflow to cool down everything

        That's a contributing factor, but dark tarmac and lack of shade are the big ones.

  • After Hurricane Ian https://fortune.com/2022/10/15... [fortune.com] there clearly needs to be a recall after a sufficient method of of waterproofing is found
  • by EreIamJH ( 180023 ) on Sunday September 03, 2023 @09:58PM (#63820980)

    We were told that when the battery starts to fizz there's 20 seconds to get 20m clear. Clearance is needed because the lithium smoke is extremely toxic (skin, lung and eye melting) and our standard gear and breathing apparatus won't protect the wearer from lithium fumes. Plus each battery cell burns like a flame thrower with a 2m flame. The trainer said that if people are still trapped in the EV once the fizzing begins, its better for onlooker optics if the fire crew keeps spraying water in the general direction even though the hose is out of range of the vehicle.

    Water does fuck all - something like 20 tons of water (my notes say 50 but memory says 20??) is needed to extinguish a standard EV battery fire. That volume can only be delivered with multiple engines connected to a reticulated water supply - something that won't be feasible outside of a few very well equipped urban areas.

    Looking to the future, we were told that building codes haven't kept up with EVs (new codes are being blocked because EVs are sexy and green). He said that as the national EV fleet ages there'll be a significant increase in non-accident EV battery fires. The problem is that old EV batteries are most likely to catastrophically fail while they're being charged, and because building codes haven't kept up with EV chargers, car fires will inevitably burn down houses/offices/parking garages etc because everyone wants convenient access to charging points right next to their exits.

    Apparently China is moving to prevent lithium-based batteries being used in EV models that are primarily designed for city commutes (ie they don't need the range) and are instead requiring safer but shorter range batteries that use sodium (I think). But doing that here requires regulatory willpower that is entirely missing when it comes to EVs which are marketed almost entirely on long travel range.

    • We should ban NMC, at least, and only permit LFP or less flammable chemistries.

      The NMC cells emit oxygen from the electrolyte when heated, the LFPs don't.

  • People should definitely know where their HV battery cut-off is located. Model 3 had is under the back passenger side seat. Completely disconnects the battery from connections outside the battery pack. I suspect what happens is that it's occasionally engaged to charge up the 12V system. If the car is or has been submerged and when it engages the HV circuits that happen to be shorted from the salt corrosion you get a run-away thermal event. Throwing that switch prevents the contactor from engaging the HV.

    • While it may be a good idea to know where the cutoff switch is, whatever is happening in these cases has nothing to do with the cutoff switch. The battery packs are being damaged by saltwater intrusion into the interior of the pack. The cutoff switch, being outside the pack, can't really help.
  • considering it's now almost impossible to get insurance there, just move out of this crazy state...

  • Since a lot of people live & drive on coasts & areas where it gets wet, rains, &/or floods fairly regularly, perhaps EV manufacturers should review the designs off the vehicles in the light of this. Are they fit for purpose?

    "Sorry, I can't come in to work today; My EV battery might get wet."
    • I think the problem is only if the EV drives through a flooded section and immerses the entire battery pack. But yes, looking at the battery pack design in light of this would not be a bad idea.

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