Code.org Presses Washington To Make Computer Science a High School Graduation Requirement 95
theodp writes: In July, Seattle-based and tech-backed nonprofit Code.org announced its 10th policy recommendation for all states "to require all students to take computer science (CS) to earn a high school diploma." In August, Washington State Senator Lisa Wellman phoned-in her plans to introduce a bill to make computer science a Washington high school graduation requirement to the state's Board of Education, indicating that the ChatGPT-sparked AI craze and Code.org had helped convince her of the need. Wellman, a former teacher who worked as a Programmer/System Analyst in the 80's before becoming an Apple VP (Publishing) in the '90s, also indicated that exposure to CS given to students in fifth grade could be sufficient to satisfy a HS CS requirement. In 2019, Wellman sponsored Microsoft-supported SB 5088 (Bill details), which required all Washington state public high schools to offer a CS class. Wellman also sponsored SB 5299 in 2021, which allows high school students to take a computer science elective in place of a third year math or science course (that may be required for college admission) to count towards graduation requirements.
And in October, Code.org CEO Hadi Partovi appeared before the Washington State Board of Education, driving home points Senator Wellman made in August with a deck containing slides calling for Washington to "require that all students take computer science to earn a high school diploma" and to "require computer science within all teacher certifications." Like Wellman, Partovi suggested the CS high school requirement might be satisfied by middle school work (he alternatively suggested one year of foreign language could be dropped to accommodate a HS CS course). Partovi noted that Washington contained some of the biggest promoters of K-12 CS in Microsoft Philanthropies' TEALS (TEALS founder Kevin Wang is a member of the Washington State Board of Education) and Code.org, as well some of the biggest funders of K-12 CS in Amazon and Microsoft -- both which are $3,000,000+ Platinum Supporters of Code.org and have top execs on Code.org's Board of Directors.
And in October, Code.org CEO Hadi Partovi appeared before the Washington State Board of Education, driving home points Senator Wellman made in August with a deck containing slides calling for Washington to "require that all students take computer science to earn a high school diploma" and to "require computer science within all teacher certifications." Like Wellman, Partovi suggested the CS high school requirement might be satisfied by middle school work (he alternatively suggested one year of foreign language could be dropped to accommodate a HS CS course). Partovi noted that Washington contained some of the biggest promoters of K-12 CS in Microsoft Philanthropies' TEALS (TEALS founder Kevin Wang is a member of the Washington State Board of Education) and Code.org, as well some of the biggest funders of K-12 CS in Amazon and Microsoft -- both which are $3,000,000+ Platinum Supporters of Code.org and have top execs on Code.org's Board of Directors.
please no! (Score:5, Insightful)
Look, I'm a software engineer with over two decades experience.
NO. please no. "computer science" the way it is handled in education is absolutely pure total bullshit.
In the real world, we hardly ever touch algorithmic complexity. Why? Because that's mostly a solved problem. What sorting algorithm is best? Just call the damn sort() function. If there is a performance issue, THEN dive deeper, but 99.99% of the time, there isn't. That's why databases with ORDER BY doesn't even give you an option to select a sorting algorithm. Same goes for data structures. Deal with small scale? Use the language's built in array/hash capabilities. Dealing with large scale? Throw that shit into a database and let it figure it out.
Practical computing? Sure, teach that. Teach Information Technology, like how systems work and how to put together a PC and what the components are. But the BS taught in computer science I can honestly say has been less useful in my life AS A SOFTWARE ENGINEER, than being able to calculate an area of a triangle.
All you'll do is make a subset of otherwise highly skilled kids feel like shit, because they're disinterested or not as apt at this one particular skill. You're not helping anyone, as this isn't the type of programming used on the job either.
Re: please no! (Score:4, Insightful)
Not to mention nothing close to a majority of those kids will ever need those skills. Might as well make carpentry, electronical, plumbing, welding, music, theater, cooking all requirements to graduate. Just another out of touch, clueless politician.
Re: please no! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: please no! (Score:4, Interesting)
Wood shop and metal shop were required for boys in 9th grade back in the early 70s. Yes, they let ninth graders use cutting torches and gas welding equipment. There was a basic electrical class too, circuits and switches and resistors.
Welding, machine shop, wood shop, drafting, and auto mechanics were electives in high-school, again only for boys.
The girls had cooking and sewing, and maybe something else, but I can't remember what.
There was also a general business class that was really about balancing a checkbook, budgeting, and even how the stock market worked, how to read the stock page in the paper. That class was open to everyone. That's when I got my SS card since it was not issued at birth back then.
Yes, it was sexist, but at something useful was taught back then.
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Yes, it was sexist,
Was? Rant incoming!
In England, the subject is generally under the name DT (design & technology) and basically covers a variety of making stuff. Generally starts with wood and plastic, maybe some electronics. You might get some microcontrollers and into programming if you're so inclined. Can generally pick up metalwork of some sort in many places. I learned how use a machine lathe. It's pretty wide open and flexible and varies between schools. Mine had a small CNC mill and injection mo
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I was closer to the mid-70's, it was similar excepting metal work was more sheet metal with soldier getting the hottest, no welding. Maybe due to small school. Other choices included drafting for the boys. I think accounting was for both sexes.
While it was expected that the sexes would use their electives as you describe, it wasn't an actual rule. I took cooking and typing, 25+ girls and 2 boys. The wife, late '70's, took mechanics, but her and the other girl got so much harassment they both quit pretty qui
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On a similar note, I can't count the number of philosophers I know because I don't think I know any. But EVERY DAY I see staggering numbers of people in real life and online who are incapable of forming coherent thought, folks who not only can't define epistemology but also don't seem to understand that coher
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What obvious reasons? I had at least two years of playing an instrument and those classes gave me some real appreciation for music. It broadens your collective knowledge. It's sad that it's not still required.
Staying on topic, I think information Systems should be taught, aka basic operation of a computer, office software and MAYBE how to put a computer together. Definitely the first two though.
Re:please no! (Score:5, Insightful)
We don't teach sorting algorithms and algorithmic complexity because we think you will ever need to implement a sorting algorithm from scratch. We teach it because sorting algorithms are simple enough for students to analyze the algorithmic complexity. I give an early assignment in "Data Structures & Algorithms" that invites students to use any data structure they want. Half the students choose Linked List because they are familiar with it. The Linked List solution will not finish before the heat death of the universe because it makes an O(n*n) algorithm into an O(n!) algorithm. The students learn an important lesson. One solution finishes in 30 seconds, and the other will not finish in their lifetime.
If you think understanding algorithmic complexity is unimportant, I invite you to accept the assignment from your clueless boss who wants you to solve some variation of the Traveling Salesman problem.
It is important to know what cannot be done efficiently (Assuming P != NP). Don't waste time and money on it. It is important to know how long something should take so you notice if it is slower than it should be or faster which probably means it produces wrong results.
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Sure, in computer SCIENCE. Part of the problem is that acedemia has yet to grapple with the difference between computer SCIENCE, computer hardware ENGINEERING, and computer software ENGINEERING, and a more generally applicable computer technology class. We don't expect an aspiring EE to study quantum chromodynamics unless they have a personal interest.
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Important enough to be a mandatory piece of knowledge to graduate from high school?
Probably not.
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I'd be interested to hear what sorting problem gets transformed from O(N^2) to O(N!) by use of linked lists?
I would think that in the worst case, a linked list should only give a factor of O(N) worse performance over an O(1) array or hash table lookup.
So, I could see a O(N^2) algorithm becoming O(N^3) but would be very interested to hear how it becomes O(N!) instead?
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Re:please no! (Score:5, Insightful)
One does not study sorting algorithms to be a master sorter. One studies them to be a master problem solver. The brain needs exercise to get more powerful, just as the muscles do.
It IS true that many programming problems have simple solutions that are already worked-out by the tools we use to develop software. But more than your estimate of .01% of problems require one to be able to do the kind of thing that one must do when implementing sorting algorithms. Its a fundamentally more difficult class of problem to solve, and the people who can do it are far more effective and successful than the people who can't.
I am faced with a hiring pool full of candidates that can't solve basic problems. Gluing together third-part components is the only thing they can do, and that's only when what we need to do with those components is simple. They just don't have the mental chops to maintain a larger and more complicated system. Well, a tiny few do, and we pay them well for it, but it is getting harder and harder to find them....precisely because so many educators are taking the exact same attitude you are. I have asked candidates for details about what kinds of things they did in their "computer science" classes and it was all watered-down fluff that doesn't approach the kinds of problems we actually need solved on a regular basis.
So, my position is basically the opposite of yours, based on my real-world experience with complex technical solutioning. I am not convinced, however, that teaching computer science at an earlier age will help, precisely because it will be watered-down in order to keep grades and graduation rates high. That will make it a token gesture at best, and a colossal waste of tax money at worst.
well stop saying you must have an CS degree job (Score:2)
well stop saying you must have an CS degree to get the job.
You are getting people who are maybe theory loaded with big real work skill gaps.
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We don't require the CS degree. "or equivalent experience" is part of the posting. We have hired a few people who don't have any degree at all for the simple reason that they can actually solve novel problems when asked to during the interview.
Re:please no! (Score:5, Interesting)
When I was 19', took temp work sorting filing cabinets at a law firm. They hired me for teo weeks, I was done in 10 hours. I spent a few minutes identifying the safe height of a stack of files, then emptied the cabinets, sorting each pile as I went, split the piles in half merging two low piles and two high piles.... Well, you see where I went.
The people in the office were wrecks and wanted to fire me until I was done. Then they were amazed and confused that some teenage computer nerd just performed magic.
On computers, you're right. The work has been done. But a little data structures and algorithms can completely change someone's life.
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I didn't see where anything said they would be teaching "algorithmic complexity" in the high schools, so why did you rant about it?
Here are the current Middle School Standards (Score:2)
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I teach CS at a middle school and there is a framework that states where the kids are supposed to be at the end of each year. The reality is that they are nowhere near grade level. I am starting from zero. They have a basic knowledge of Google Docs and Google Slides. That is it.
There is simply no background. I can not expect them to have met 5th-grade competencies. The reality is that they are entering at the third-grade competencies level (they can log in, frequently
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That looks pretty rigorous, but I'm not sure what you are getting at. In my experience most kids will have just a very casual knowledge of computers and programming they have picked up at home, if even that. Some households don't even own a laptop. The parents of some students are technophobes. Their only hope of getting any education on this is at school.
Now, if you are complaining that the expectations are too high for what you are tasked to teach based on the level of experience of the typical student,
Re: please no! (Score:2)
Just an office tools course is probably what they would in real world go for. Though the alarming rate of illeteracy among american population should be addressed long before even that.
On the other hand they should have some coding in school. We had pascal on 7th grade and c++ as optional in HS and got an "it drivers license" which was a thing in 90s in our country to prove you could use computers in a way they're used in an office.
Oh and we also had typing still. And none of this really took away from math
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I don't care about CS education in high school, but if they want to increase the acumen of the little sprogs, they should demand more math. With that, they can do all the CS they want....after high school.
This computer teacher agrees (Score:3)
I teach at a middle school and the desire from the high school is that I teach apps. So, in the 5th grade, we have a dedicated teacher who goes to the intermediate schools and teaches Google apps. Then in the 6th grade, they take a class on keyboarding and Google apps. Then they get to m
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You are way overestimating what they could teach in a compulsory HS class. If everyone needs to pass CS to get a degree, they will tailor the class such that everyone can pass it. No child left behind.....
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Might be far better (Score:5, Insightful)
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Don't conflate a discussion about what needs taught in school with the issue of accountability in grading.
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Literacy rate in the US (Score:2)
Um. Hell no.
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This is clearly some special interest inspired grab for attention and resources. Whoever came up with this doesn't give a damn about education, they only want a bigger slice of pie for themselves.
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That stat has to be heavily weighted by people with learning disabilities. My own kids figured out how to read before entering kindergarten (no preschool or daycare) and we sure as heck didn't teach them. The most we did was read bedtime stories to them. Neither of them were/are geniuses. I don't see how you can fail to learn to read if someone is actively attempting to teach you unless there are other factors.
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I have a pretty hard time buying that statistic, unless they're including young children and/or people who can't see well enough to read any more (which is fairly common in the over-70 crowd), and/or people who stopped *bothering* to ever read after they graduated (which is disturbingly common in the lower economic brackets).
Although if you look specifically at people who were supposed to be learning how to read (kindergarten, first grade) in 2020 o
No, just no. (Score:2)
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"Computer languages are just like any other language"
I strongly disagree with this. The fact that you said this makes me suspect you are not a programmer.
CS? (Score:3)
Do they really mean "Computer Science" or do they mean "programming" or do they mean "computer usage"?
I've seen elementary schools calling a section "computer science" when it's just teaching how to use Word. That's not "computer science" or even "software engineering" or even "programming". It's rather like typing classes offered (and sometimes required) in high school 50 years ago - even though they used English text to type from, they were not called "English Class".
I'm in favor of offering programming classes as electives in high school (and perhaps before) - along with other now too often deprecated or obsolete shop classes such as auto shop - but there is little reason to require everyone to take such classes.
Personal finance (for personal financial success) and rudimentary probability and statistics (for informed political participation) are far more important to the broad spectrum of students than "Computer Science" or "programming" yet are rarely if ever required.
Perhaps computer usage of common utilities such as word processing and spreadsheets should appear in required courses though - but it's doubtful a full quarter, let alone a full semester, should be required.
and don't let MS write the class with vendor lock (Score:2)
and don't let MS write the class with vendor lock in
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From 2022: North Carolina Teams With Microsoft To Bring Minecraft CS Curriculum To All Middle Schoolers [slashdot.org]
Different classes are needed... (Score:3)
Computer literacy (how to use a computer, how to use the Internet, how to stay safe online, proper safe use of social media, how to use Word/Excel/etc and the other stuff about how to use a computer or other computing device and how to stay safe when doing so) should be compulsory.
Then you could have computer courses as electives.
You could have a class about multimedia (how to make and edit photos and videos, some web design or desktop publishing, stuff like that).
And one for coding (when I was in high school in the early-mid 90s, the languages of choice for the coding class were Turbo Pascal and then later Visual Basic although in 2023, something like C# would be a better pick, no not that Python rubbish).
Anyone going through school now in 2023 should absolutely have good strong computer literacy skills. But unless you want to write code for fun or intend to pursue a career in computing, learning to write actual code isn't a necessary skill.
Gee, who knew? (Score:1)
Computer training materials publisher lobbies to require computer training.
NO! (Score:2)
A class in computer technology, perhaps with hello world level programming (in a real language please, not a fake 'educational' language), sure. That would be useful. Everyone soon to be a hopefully productive member of society should have "the COMPUTER " de-mystified, if for no other reason so they don't get scammed. Knowing basic things like how to put in a hard drive might be good. Teach them that caller ID can be spoofed while we're at it.
But nobody who isn't going to be in IT needs computer SCIENCE as
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Caller ID can only be spoofed in countries that allow it and where the networks allow it.
Good luck spoofing your phone number e,g, in Germany or Thailand, lolz.
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It is at least harder in Germany since December of 2022. I do wish that would be done in the U.S. as well, but unless/until then, people should know that "The Apple Store" may not be the Apple Store.
NO! (Score:2)
How to use basic stuff with computers like Internet, typing, privacy, security, software, etc. Sure. But computer science like coding, history, etc.? No!
Ironic (Score:2)
I don't see a single comment here from someone who thinks this is a good idea. This is presumably a site full of people who actually know how to code. Pretty ironic.
Hmmm...maybe it's a conspiracy, to keep the poor downtrodden schoolkids repressed and codeless. /sarcasm
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There's a lot of wannabe gatekeepers who want to keep out the dirty masses and only have the in crowd who pass through a sufficiently pointless gauntlet.
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I like to say, "All the best developers are self-taught. Even the ones who went to school."
Computer Science or coding or whatever, should be treated like art and music. Exposing children to these things in school is a good thing, it just might open their eyes to possibilities they didn't know existed. Just don't expect a generation of developers as a result.
It's a basic skill (Score:2)
Being able to write a little software is definitely a useful life skill and high school students in this era should get that exposure. Some of them might decide they like it and be able to earn a good living somewhere down the road. Others may simply have a better understanding of how things work.
I don't see how this is a controversial proposal in any way.
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Everything that is forced on you should be controversial.
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It wouldn't be 'forced on you'. It would merely be a requirement to graduate, just like many other subjects.
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It wouldn't be 'forced on you'. It would merely be a requirement to graduate, just like many other subjects.
If it's a requirement to graduate, doesn't that mean yeah it's pretty much forced on you?
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When you attend a school you are going to have to undertake the required curriculum or you won't graduate. Is it being 'forced' on you? You can always opt to not attend.
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And what exactly does differentiate "force on you" from "merely be a requirement to graduate"?
If you are not good at it, it ruins your grade. At least that is what is happening in Europe. Which means certain Universities where the grade is important: would not take you.
You want to study art? But your grade is worse than A, the university would not take you, because you where bad in a completely useless class for yourself. Does not matter if it is CS or religion. Forcing people to take it "merely be a requi
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You are shifting the goalposts. Now you want students to be able to take only those courses where they will excel.
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No.
I want them to take courses that are kind of elemental.
And courses they are interested in. Regardless if they excell in them or not.
And most certainly I do not want to push coursed down their throat, which they hate: for what ever reason. To bad if they hate an "elemental course"
Computer science, religion, music, painting are nothing a kid wants to do: unless it likes it. And it should not ruin the grade of the year or be relevant for passing the year or not.
If you want something in the curriculum you th
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It is, but it's one that not everyone is capable of acquiring. Also, things like drawing and budgeting and talking people into things are at least as useful.
> high school students in this era should get that exposure
I can see that, but the phrase "requirement to graduate" makes it sound like they're going to be penalized if they can't perform adequately, and some of them won't be able to no matter how hard they try, even if high
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You can make the same argument about any number of required high school courses. Some people will not do well in them no matter how hard they try.
And you can also make the argument that none of the required courses are essential life skills. You can get by in life without english, algebra, geometry, biology, chemistry, and a foreign language. But you typically will have to pass those courses anyways in order to graduate.
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Math is somewhere in between, and almost all school districts route students with a low math aptitude, (which becomes obvious by middle school at the very latest) into substitute courses that are theoretically classified as "math" but involve no actual mathematics beyond what the chintzy "calculator" app that ships with your preferred operating system can do.
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I agree, and I've got no problem with routing students to classes that are appropriate for them. But I do think a solid exposure to interacting with computers and learning how to do useful things with them is essential education for the times we live in.
I think they missed the goal pole (Score:1)
Well,
first they force us to learn computer science, then even Forth.
Then ancient greeek, no no no, not the one that is spoken today, the ancient one.
Then they think Hebrew is not funny enough and we need to learn Aramaic.
Then they start to force us to use a mixed 60/20/5 system to learn Geometry.
Then they think we need to be able to play ancient music instruments, in pentatonic harmonics or even wierder.
Well, if the idiots who think it makes sense to force someone to learn something he does not want to lear
With the right content... (Score:2)
It all depends on the content. I don't think hard-core programming is appropriate for all kids (though it definitely should be an elective. However, a course where kids learn about computing in general - yes.
I teach first-year college courses in a semi-technical major. Student come in with their laptops, and have zero idea what the things do. What is a file? What is a directory? Is their stuff stored on the local machine, or in the cloud? The explorer/finder will happily look inside a zip-archive - what di
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You jest but my boomer parents are pretty good at their computers. They are not programmers or engineers or anything but they are pretty good at following directions, know how to do a backup, understand files and folders, installing applications, know not to download stupid shit, and generally do just fine online.
When they do run into problems, half the time it's Windows doing Windows things.
CS is no guarantee (Score:2)
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How can you do programming if you can't understand simple math with variables.
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This! My high school programming classes were gated behind Algebra I and Geometry. I actually did Algebra II while also doing the first semester of C++. I decided after getting a "B" and never solving the darn Knight's Tour program that I likely wasn't going to be a good programmer. Took Cisco networking I/II next semester and loved that significantly more.
Of course, I was always better at reading and comprehension then math. I'd rather be digging around in a script or config file setting up servers/service
Schools should focus on fundamentals (Score:2)
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that most in university degrees in the US, the first year or so is more of general education where you study a variety of subjects to complete your general education, and then only in later years do you start to specialise, and for some areas, like law and medicine, the specialisation is at post graduate level.
In other countries, such as in Europe and Australia, most degrees start off with entry requirements and specialisation begins in the first year of
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English Lit AP, Calculus BC, Physics BC, CHEM AP, Macroeconomics AP, Microeconomics AP , Comp Science AP gets you out of year of college while satisfying your breadth requirements (Comp Sc AP satisfies the foreign language requirement).
The difference is not all schools offer
Followed by pressue to mandate Code.org curriculum (Score:2)
Code monkeying, not computer science (Score:3)
CS in the classroom (Score:2)
What I'd like to see rather than a programming class is a digital literacy class. Things like introducing file systems, basics of security and privacy, running applications, etc. Heck, go into useful things like excel formulas, basic macros, etc. That is stuff that students should know leaving HS (and I can tell you, few students know those going into college in the last 5 years).
BUT I think that real CS should be made available. It's been a long time, but my HS did have a programming class (pascal), and
Computer Literacy first (Score:2)
I'm generally in favor of students getting a basic (hopefully not literally) programming class at each level of school — elementary, junior, senior. But we need to work on basic computer literacy first. There are people graduating high school without really even knowing how to use a computer. Stuff like file management, or how to change settings! In the modern world that's nearly as much of an impediment to getting things done as not knowing how to read... oh yeah, students are graduating as functiona
No, requiring CS in high school is stupid (Score:2)
I'm a software engineer with a MS in CS and over 20 years of experience in industry, mostly in research and design.
Computer science and programming are not needed by the general population and will go to waste for the vast majority of people.
Deductive and inductive logic and proofs should already be covered in math courses. Applying proofs to algorithms would make for a nice subtopic in math.
Math courses should be buttressed and CS topics can be used to help do that, but requiring a course of study in CS or
course materials (Score:2)
I wonder who will provide the course materials for this? Wait, I know, Code.org! There's a pretty penny to be made, just like every other education grift for the past 50 years.
No (Score:2)
I have a B.Sc in CIS, and decades as a programmer and sysadmin.
Half the people coding *now* really need to find some other job, like chatting with chatbots.
What I want is every school in the country have a federally-mandated unit on the US Constitution, and to graduate high school, you have to take the same test that every immigrant has to take to become a citizen.
While we're at it, let's require everyone to reregister to vote, and have to take that test first. Of course, that mostly ends the Trump Crime Fa
Access to Technology (Score:2)
Requiring computer science is an excellent idea, if for no other reason than it will go a long way toward ensuring a minimum level of access to technology for all K-12 students.