New US Immigration Rules Spur More Visa Approvals For STEM Workers (science.org) 102
Following policy adjustments by the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) in January, more foreign-born workers in science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) fields are able to live and work permanently in the United States. "The jump comes after USCIS in January 2022 tweaked its guidance criteria relating to two visa categories available to STEM workers," reports Science Magazine. "One is the O-1A, a temporary visa for 'aliens of extraordinary ability' that often paves the way to a green card. The second, which bestows a green card on those with advanced STEM degrees, governs a subset of an EB-2 (employment-based) visa." From the report: The USCIS data, reported exclusively by ScienceInsider, show that the number of O-1A visas awarded in the first year of the revised guidance jumped by almost 30%, to 4570, and held steady in fiscal year 2023, which ended on 30 September. Similarly, the number of STEM EB-2 visas approved in 2022 after a "national interest" waiver shot up by 55% over 2021, to 70,240, and stayed at that level this year. "I'm seeing more aspiring and early-stage startup founders believe there's a way forward for them," says Silicon Valley immigration attorney Sophie Alcorn. She predicts the policy changes will result in "new technology startups that would not have otherwise been created."
President Joe Biden has long sought to make it easier for foreign-born STEM workers to remain in the country and use their talent to spur the U.S. economy. But under the terms of a 1990 law, only 140,000 employment-based green cards may be issued annually, and no more than 7% of those can go to citizens of any one country. The ceiling is well below the demand. And the country quotas have created decades-long queues for scientists and high-tech entrepreneurs born in India and China. The 2022 guidance doesn't alter those limits on employment-based green cards but clarifies the visa process for foreign-born scientists pending any significant changes to the 1990 law. The O-1A work visa, which can be renewed indefinitely, was designed to accelerate the path to a green card for foreign-born high-tech entrepreneurs.
Although there is no cap on the number of O-1A visas awarded, foreign-born scientists have largely ignored this option because it wasn't clear what metrics USCIS would use to assess their application. The 2022 guidance on O-1As removed that uncertainty by listing eight criteria -- including awards, peer-reviewed publications, and reviewing the work of other scientistsâ"and stipulating that applicants need to satisfy at least three of them. The second visa policy change affects those with advanced STEM degrees seeking the national interest waiver for an EB-2. Under the normal process of obtaining such a visa, the Department of Labor requires employers to first satisfy rules meant to protect U.S. workers from foreign competition, for example, by showing that the company has failed to find a qualified domestic worker and that the job will pay the prevailing wage. That time-consuming exercise can be waived if visa applicants can prove they are doing "exceptional" work of "substantial merit and national importance." But once again, the standard for determining whether the labor-force requirements can be waived was vague, so relatively few STEM workers chose that route. The 2022 USCIS guidance not only specifies criteria, which closely track those for the nonimmigrant, O-1A visa, but also allows scientists to sponsor themselves.
President Joe Biden has long sought to make it easier for foreign-born STEM workers to remain in the country and use their talent to spur the U.S. economy. But under the terms of a 1990 law, only 140,000 employment-based green cards may be issued annually, and no more than 7% of those can go to citizens of any one country. The ceiling is well below the demand. And the country quotas have created decades-long queues for scientists and high-tech entrepreneurs born in India and China. The 2022 guidance doesn't alter those limits on employment-based green cards but clarifies the visa process for foreign-born scientists pending any significant changes to the 1990 law. The O-1A work visa, which can be renewed indefinitely, was designed to accelerate the path to a green card for foreign-born high-tech entrepreneurs.
Although there is no cap on the number of O-1A visas awarded, foreign-born scientists have largely ignored this option because it wasn't clear what metrics USCIS would use to assess their application. The 2022 guidance on O-1As removed that uncertainty by listing eight criteria -- including awards, peer-reviewed publications, and reviewing the work of other scientistsâ"and stipulating that applicants need to satisfy at least three of them. The second visa policy change affects those with advanced STEM degrees seeking the national interest waiver for an EB-2. Under the normal process of obtaining such a visa, the Department of Labor requires employers to first satisfy rules meant to protect U.S. workers from foreign competition, for example, by showing that the company has failed to find a qualified domestic worker and that the job will pay the prevailing wage. That time-consuming exercise can be waived if visa applicants can prove they are doing "exceptional" work of "substantial merit and national importance." But once again, the standard for determining whether the labor-force requirements can be waived was vague, so relatively few STEM workers chose that route. The 2022 USCIS guidance not only specifies criteria, which closely track those for the nonimmigrant, O-1A visa, but also allows scientists to sponsor themselves.
Who in their right mind would want to move there? (Score:2)
The US is in a long-term, economic decline and may very well have a real civil war on its hands very soon. Not an attractive target for working abroad.
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Well, the more and more people that are forced to work for walmart in retirement because social security and their life savings are woefully inadequate for a basic life needs...the more likely that is.
The catch is, compared to many countries, even the lowered H1B and similar immigrant wages (i know, technically illegal but lol) are so much higher than other countries it's still worth it for people to come. It's the same logic that explains young teenagers in various asian countries marrying a middle-aged a
Re: Who in their right mind would want to move the (Score:2)
I'd say they'd stop coming here once the USA becomes a total sh*thole but then there's NYC and they keep coming.
Who?
https://www.osc.ny.gov/files/r... [ny.gov]
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I'd say they'd stop coming here once the USA becomes a total sh*thole but then there's NYC and they keep coming.
Who?
https://www.osc.ny.gov/files/r... [ny.gov]
One word and an 11-page PDF does not a point make.
Re: Who in their right mind would want to move th (Score:2)
I didn't make a point, I asked a question. Who are "they" that keep coming?
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I read somewhere that qualified IT people in India make almost US salaries, while having far lower living expenses. China, I don't know. They are currently hard at work ruining their economy because they elected themselves an emperor. That never works well.
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I have heard multiple times now there is a growing sentiment of educated younger Chinese citizens who want to get out of there and are trying to move to the US, even going around the system and just border crossing. My opinion is we should just be making it easier for them to do it.
A New Wave of Chinese Middle-Class Migrants Is Coming to the US [bloomberg.com]
free link: https://archive.is/RJXqs#selec... [archive.is]
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India has also elected themselves an emperor, it is just taking him longer to consolidate his corruption because he has to clear out the vestiges of Indian democracy first. Plus, he adding a bit of religious stupidity to the mix.
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I do not follow Indian politics. Assuming it is true (which I have no reason to doubt at this time), that does not bode well at all for them. I take it the people actually electected this cretin, not some "representatives" as in China?
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Are you sure that is the case for this class of workers? Usually people earn high salaries because positions are hard to fill...
You don't read much about modern economics do you? (Score:5, Insightful)
The US is in a long-term, economic decline and may very well have a real civil war on its hands very soon. Not an attractive target for working abroad.
I am guessing you are basing this on your "gut feel?"...or do you have some data to back it up? If you think the USA is in a long-term decline, either your're talking about some subtle and disputed trends or you really don't know what you're talking about. For the first time in a long time, the USA has a clearly bright future. For those without an axe to grind against the US, manufacturing is up, unemployment is down and the economy is doing well. For the first time, our economic booms will likely actually improve the lives of the working class.
However, more importantly, this is in contrast to who? Without a doubt, the USA is far from perfect and has a lot to learn from other countries...but not as much as most of them have to learn from us. Who are these great growth countries? Most of Western Europe is not doing well demographically. I love Germany, but a huge portion of their legendary workforce is entering retirement...same with most of Europe. They don't have enough young people to fund their pensions for much longer and will have to rely on heavy heavy immigration to keep the place running...which...is cool, I love immigrants too...but...I don't want my country's ability to fund retirees and general future dependent solely on them.
So who has a brighter future? China?...well, if you think that, you must know something that nearly the entire international economics community doesn't know. India?...eh...well, again, they have some decent demographic trends, but I am skeptical India will ever rise to China's heights...I could be wrong on that, but I know India relatively well and know a lot of people who know it extremely well and few are bullish on its future. They have too many fundamental cultural issues keeping them back as well as a huge problem with their best and brightest leaving for greener pastures. How many Indian doctors and tech workers are really going to return to India after their children have entered school in the USA, Australia, and Europe...going from well-developed societies and economies just to participate in a developing economy?...some...sure...most?...I'd wager not, certainly not those who have great careers overseas. Many Indian Entrepreneurs have WANTED to start a business in India and take advantage of their labor pool, only to have their startup dreams scuttled by the corruption over there as well as the lack of financing. I've met multiple people who found it easier to create a startup in Silicon Valley or any expensive USA tech city than overseas....just from a financing and support perspective.
Japan or Korea?...they have the same issues Germany and Europe have. I love both places, but they're going to have to make a LOT of changes if they want to avoid economic disaster as their workforce ages.
There's Latin America...I am pretty bullish on Mexico and love the place...but...it's future is only so bright because it's past is so bleak...same with Costa Rica, Colombia, etc.
Shit on America all you like, we've got some fucking problems...we've got a lot to learn....but....economically, we're doing much better than most of the rest of the world. I hope the USA gets their shit together and starts correcting their past mistakes because I hope to live and retire here. However, we're looking to have a great job market and short-term as well as economic long-term prospects based on the data I've seen and analysis from impartial analysts I trust the most.
So you may not like the USA, but it's a great place to work and a great place to start a career, even if it's not your final destination. So as a target for working abroad?...pretty appealing...even if you just get your start here and take your skills someplace you prefer to live long-term. Work at Google, Apple, or Morgan Stanley for 10 years and it gets much easier to find the job of your dreams anywhere in the world.
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people out here both saying we have a border crisis but also that nobody wants to move here
You have a border crisis because the "wrong people" are trying to move there.
You have an immigration crisis because Americans are too lazy to do the jobs foreigner will do for cheap.
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For the first time in a long time, the USA has a clearly bright future.
The last time being 1928.
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Re:We don't need these leeches (Score:4, Insightful)
Totally agree - the problem is corporations KNOW they can get cheap labor this way and literally don't care. They can hire two or three mediocre visa based workers who they can force to work 80-hour weeks for the price of one strong developer.
The original rules on stuff like H1B that required not only equal wages but a *premium* over prevailing wage have been so completely overlooked and ignored it's just comical - and incredibly obvious who's running the show. Until we fix this (and maybe seal our border) we're just going to slowly sell ourselves into oblivion.
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So you're crying that Mexicans flowing across the border who can barely speak English. Are outcompeting the "highly trained & skilled" IT workers?
It's no wonder your country is falling apart.
Trump will fix it though. He'll close the border and then the unemployed IT workers can do the fruit picking and whatever other jobs the Mexicans used to do.
Re:We don't need these leeches (Score:4, Insightful)
That's not all the former alleged president want to do. He says he wants a 10% levy on all foreign goods allowed into the country. That should increase prices nicely. Other countries will do similarly in retaliation, so there's jobs lost in companies that export. It is all part of the plan of his minder in Moscow to destroy the global order the U.S. had worked hard to build.
And the fun does not stop there. He intends stop the Ukraine-Russia war by helping Putin take Ukraine leaving Putin free to re-arm and start looking at countries in Eastern Europe to snuff out.
Re:We don't need these leeches (Score:4, Interesting)
Don't forget the other bonus people don't mention: if Putin takes Ukraine, he gets his hands on a big chunk of the worlds grain output.
Wouldn't it be great if he could manipulate the supply of food similarly to that of gas and oil?
“Ukraine is one of the world's major grain producers. According to the European Commission, Ukraine accounts for 10% of the world wheat market, 15% of the corn market, and 13% of the barley market.”
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At least have the balls to not AC-post if you're going to intentionally combine two separate immigration problems and pretend that somehow makes a contradiction.
"mexicans flowing across the border who can barely speak english" is absolutely a problem.
STEM visa's allowing companies to import low-cost tech workers and basically hold them hostage pushing down overall wages for most STEM jobs is also absolutely a problem.
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Totally agree - the problem is corporations KNOW they can get cheap labor this way and literally don't care. They can hire two or three mediocre visa based workers who they can force to work 80-hour weeks for the price of one strong developer.
The original rules on stuff like H1B that required not only equal wages but a *premium* over prevailing wage have been so completely overlooked and ignored it's just comical - and incredibly obvious who's running the show. Until we fix this (and maybe seal our border) we're just going to slowly sell ourselves into oblivion.
I blame the evil Republican conservatives of ... er, oops, California?
Re: We don't need these leeches (Score:2)
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I learned today federal law is made by California.
(gently) And one day, you'll learn where those evil tech corporations are ... you know, the ones that "KNOW they can get cheap labor this way and literally don't care".
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If they're already working, what difference does it make. They immigrants aren't taking your job.
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The problem is Americans are not even being given the opportunity to accept a market wage, because they're not getting interviews when they apply to jobs that. have the range posted in the job description - because they're from states that require that the rate be posted in the job description - And so they're okay with the rate and they've applied to the role expecting to get the market rate, but they're not getting the interviews.
Huh? Where are they? (Score:5, Insightful)
We have hundreds of thousands of software development engineers that are American born who can't find work right now.
Where are these folks?...I need some for my team. I can't find nearly anyone for my team and we pay well. Most that make it to an interview SUUUUUCK...and I don't mean..."they can't hit the ground running on our 30 platforms"...I mean they claim 5 years of Java experience, but can't write Hello World or design a simple 1 table DB schema...not they can't do it to my satisfaction or they got some minor detail wrong...I mean they can't convince me they've EVER done the work they say they can do.
So of the 5% or so that pass a review that is a lot more remedial than I'd like...most of those don't take the offer. Why? It's a fucking competition and if we want them, so does everyone else...and we usually lose out to another company not because of pay or the position, but because the winning employer is closer to their home or some buddy of their works there...or we gave an offer in 48h instead of 8h.
For the past 20 years, there has been a massive shortage of tech workers in the software field. I don't know a single American-born programmer that is talented and unemployed or underemployed. I never have known one.
Even the shittiest people I've ever worked with manage to find consistent work...and I have worked with some real pieces of shit. I have worked with people whose personal hygiene is so bad that you can figure out which rooms they were in an HOUR LATER because their odor is so strong...and they find consistent work. I have ex-coworkers who have been convicted of crimes, including sexual assault, on the job, and have found steady work. I have known many folks who are completely useless with technology and find steady work. I have known many who are lazy, entitled pieces of shit and suck at their job and find steady work. I know many who are the biggest assholes the world has ever known and they find steady work...and I don't mean I thought they were assholes...I mean EVERYONE thought they were assholes and they were openly hostile, racist, sexist, homophobic and generally offensive and confrontational...like severe asperger's + a chip on their shoulder....and they're all employed. Even the greybeards who refuse to learn modern technology and waste time telling you about all the great technology battles of the 70s and 80s, like long-winded speeches about VMS and how UNIX is just a fad...for some reason, even those insufferable pricks find work. For as horrible as these people are, what is the penalty?...they don't get a top-tier job, but get a lower-tier job like a bank or non-profit instead of a tech company.
There are legit complaints against Visa abuse, but unemployed American tech workers is not one of them. If anything, our hiring of foreigners have ensure that most of the great tech companies of this century were started in the USA instead of the country of birth of the founders.
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This right here.
When you invite someone for an interview who claims to have 5 years of experience with IDA but can't tell you what 10 lines of assembly are supposed to do, and we're not talking about something esoteric or obfuscated, hand-crafted assembly code that relies heavily on opcode side effects in flags, but 10 standard lines any VC or gcc would spit out, you know that the claim is far beyond what really goes on. Usually this is then followed by "uh, well, I only had to use it once or so...", while
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I'm one of the many that are publicly posting code on Github and still not getting interview requests when they applly, despite having over 25 years of experience, which is actually more experienced than what that AC was talking about in his post. And the 600k number looks like it might be from https://layoffs.fyi/ [layoffs.fyi] so its legit
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What can you do, and can you work in the EU?
I am almost certain I can get you an interview.
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In my experience, web programmers in PHP, Python, and other shit like AS
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Yes, of course they were different interviews. The assembly question was for the position of senior security consultant and pentester, the JSON one for a Java programmer for web backends.
And quite frankly, I don't need a security engineer to read Nessus output. That's something I can get a CS undergraduate to grasp in a week.
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Over 600k devs were laid off this year according to https://layoffs.fyi/ [layoffs.fyi] and I'm one of the many with OVER the experience the AC described who are not getting callbacks.
Anybody who says that American tech workers who want to work can easily find jobs is trolling because the metrics and the numbers that are easily available and easily found say otherwise... as do my own experiences.
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Yeah, because your anecdote of knowing seven people that fit that scenario within the six miles around your home is indicative of the state of the entire country.
YOU are clearly trolling.
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https://layoffs.fyi/ [layoffs.fyi] shows more than 600k developers laid off this past year
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We have hundreds of thousands of software development engineers that are American born who can't find work right now.
We don't need these leeches from other countries taking American jobs from Americans that can do the work at better quality just because these companies don't want to pay a market wage;
You're contradicting yourself.
Just because you want more pay, doesn't mean that's what the market wage is.
It takes both sides to make a market.
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They never said they wanted more pay, they said they wanted a job. If they're not getting interviews, then they're not even getting to the point where they can ask for more pay. So your argument is invalid.
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Do you have hundreds of thousands of software development engineers that can't find a job? Or do you have hundreds of thousands of StackExchange copy/pasters who can't find a job?
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I'm one of these American developers looking for work; and my github shows I know what I'm doing.
For the people questioning, the OP is correct in that there were 600k+ American developers laid off last year, per https://layoffs.fyi/ [layoffs.fyi]
All the people working in staffing now seem to be out of India, and all the jobs seem to be fake. But I spend all day applying to work that seems to fit my skills and experience, and I'm not getting a single interview request. I have no idea why. I legitimately have skills, and I
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I'm seeing something similar, part of it is AI is allowing for the instant spamming of generated Resumes. I've seen Jobs advertised on LinkedIn with thousands of applicants within a day or two. Most Tech is now remote so you're also competing with anyone anywhere in the world. If your resume isn't perfect in every way it won't even get all the way through the ATS systems. On top of that there's a glut of talent on the market from all those layoffs, and tech spending CAPEX is still down.
Maybe just stop selling out our country? (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe - just maybe - we should focus on educating US Citizens in relevant STEM fields. This would include ending the "no failing grades" in STEM (and other) classes and forcing them to learn while ALSO making college (or vocational school) actually something a teenager can afford without crippling loans.
Instead we get the worst of all worlds - foreign students and immigrants who are well documented to work for much lower wages AND export a significant portion of their income to other countries...while the actual children of this country fall by the wayside.
I'm not aiming to assign blame or fault. Instead, looking forward, the US could and should implement programs (like many other countries) to act in the best interest of their citizens before foreign interests and corporate billionaires/multi-trillion-dollar companies. Do we need immigrants? Yes. Do we need to import labor on visas that and well documented to actively and *intentionally* displace american citizens (and for lower wages) from jobs? I'm saying no.
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Naa. That would mean less profits for US companies! Obviously profits trump worker welfare every time. I would go so far to say your comment is decidedly un-American!
(Yes, you are right. But think about how this abysmal state of affairs came to pass and you find a fundamental defect on US society: Praying to the God of Mammon.)
Re:Maybe just stop selling out our country? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is why I firmly believe the SCOTUS ruling allowing "corporate personhood" the right to make unlimited political expenditures was likely the singular worst ruling from in modern times, if not ever. Citizens United vs. Federal Election Committee for those who want to read up. It literally handed our country to billion and trillion dollar corporations to write laws and buy^^^ finance the campaigns of politicians.
For example, this is the basis that allowed several rideshare/delivery companies to collectively spend almost $200mm in CA to "campaign against" (i.e. promote an essentially false narrative) Prop 22 that would have made uber drivers employees and given them the (very generous) protections of cali employment law. This was not a comprehensive bill or set of laws (with the required least-evil voting approach) but a single-item proposition that ONLY decided the employment status of rideshare drivers.
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Well, that is what corruption looks like, starting with SCOTUS. Corruption kills societies. The SCOTUS embers that made this decision may not care, but they must have been aware. Evil can sometimes (not so rarely) be found in the highest places.
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The concept of corporate personhood well predates the Citizen's United ruling. All that ruling effective did was say "we have all this precedent and case law saying that corporations are effectively people, and a whole bunch of other case law saying people can spend their own money to create advertisements and otherwise campaign for political issues (i.e., free speech), so we really have to admit that these corporate persons that already exist can do the same things." You might not like the final outcome
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This seems to be a non-issue in Europe, with all these questions answered an no silly idea of a corporation being a "person". Maybe take that as a starting point?
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Are you a complete asshole or just too stupid to read?
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Brain Drain is in our best interests (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not aiming to assign blame or fault. Instead, looking forward, the US could and should implement programs (like many other countries) to act in the best interest of their citizens before foreign interests and corporate billionaires/multi-trillion-dollar companies. Do we need immigrants? Yes. Do we need to import labor on visas that and well documented to actively and *intentionally* displace american citizens (and for lower wages) from jobs? I'm saying no.
We're hiring the best and brightest from overseas and creating a nurturing environment to create startups here. What percentage of major tech companies started since 2000 didn't have at least 1 immigrant founder? We're also ensuring that foreign companies can't have the resources so that Intel, nVidia, and AMD dominate instead of ARM or some Chinese or Indian startup. We're ensuring Apple dominates instead of Nokia, RIM, Samsung, etc.
If you're talking the tech sector, I don't know a single American
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Ahh those rose colored glasses ... must get me some.
You must know very, very few american software engineers if above is true. In reality there certainly are unemployed engineers and LOTS of tech-sector staff have lost jobs over decades to imported tech workers. There's countless examples of companies "outsourcing" their IT to consulting firms who "hire people on visa's because they can't find american workers" and those workers (by intent and design) displace the american citizen IT workers who literally
I've worked for those companies (Score:2)
There's countless examples of companies "outsourcing" their IT to consulting firms who "hire people on visa's because they can't find american workers" and those workers (by intent and design) displace the american citizen IT workers who literally are forced to train their immigrant replacement or else forfeit any severance pay.
Yeah, I was there. They kept me because I was a top performer. First of all, every place I worked said they did, but the offshore outsourcing company was years behind schedule and the date kept getting moved back by a few years. Secondly, once the axe fell, everyone found another job...quickly....better than the MBA-infested shithole that laid them off. I actually followed one laid-off guy to a new, higher-paying job.
Yeah, it was shitty and sucked, but the simple fact is there was a shortage of pr
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What is this “no failing grades” you mentioned? Is that a Federal thing?
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What is this “no failing grades” you mentioned? Is that a Federal thing?
The fed has nothing to do with school grading, but if you google it there's several examples of major cities that have basically eliminated failing grades.
Standardized testing has/is being phased out in many places.
Schools (teachers in particular) also are being regularly pushed to lower standards and grade higher.
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Maybe - just maybe - we should focus on educating US Citizens in relevant STEM fields.
That ship has sailed. The only technology kids in the US are interested in is the latest XBox and Playstation and how to get-rich-quick as influenza.
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'we should focus on educating US Citizens in relevant STEM fields'
Do you actually think the US lacks in engineering schools?
'ending the "no failing grades" in STEM (and other) classes'
Do you actually think engineering has "no failing grade" classes? You're more likely to find "no passing grade" classes.
'Do we need immigrants? Yes. Do we need to import labor on visas that and well documented to actively and *intentionally* displace american citizens (and for lower wages) from jobs? I'm saying no.'
These are c
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I don't think the US lacks engineering schools but that's tangential to what I said.
Yes, there are STEM classes that students can no longer be given failing grades in. It's predominantly, but not exclusively, in lower education and in Cali.
Needing reasonable immigration policy that does not create visa-slaves or directly take jobs/depress wages from existing citizens is not contradictory in the slightest. Feel free to make an actual argument backing up your declaratory statement if you disagree.
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Explanation For The Slower People (Score:2)
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Plenty of tent cities in cali - unless a foreign politician is visiting of course.
Funny how our country has (and spends!) enough money to feed, house, educate, and provide medical care to literally all our citizens yet we seem unable to achieve that goal.
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Funny how our country has (and spends!) enough money to feed, house, educate, and provide medical care to literally all our citizens yet we seem unable to achieve that goal.
A large segment of the country explicitly does not share that goal and votes accordingly.
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Funny how our country has (and spends!) enough money to feed, house, educate, and provide medical care to literally all our citizens yet we seem unable to achieve that goal.
A large segment of the country explicitly does not share that goal and votes accordingly.
Of course not. They'd rather concentrate that money (in their own pockets) then use it effectively to provide for the non-wealthy.
Why the Two Narratives? (Score:2)
On the one hand, AI is going to replace all the tech workers.
On the other hand, we need new immigration rules and visa approvals.
Funny how the obvious question is never asked.
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Computers and robots were going to replace most jobs from manufacturing to bookkeeping ... and yet here we are. :)
Good (Score:4, Informative)
More immigration means more Americans, more Americans means more labor, more labor means more productivity and so on and so on.
Really despite the narratives it's been pretty clear cut through almost all indicators that more immigration creates jobs and creates wealth for everyone. Especially for legal immigration like this but even illegal immigration has an upward force. Even Borjas who is the most prominent anti-immigration researcher found that the worst knock-on effect from immigration was to non-highschool graduates at a loss of somewhere in 3-5%, easily made up by social safety nets and education reforms.
Really the problem with immigration isn't the immigrants, a large majority of which integrate into the USA within a single generation usually (that is America's real superpower after all) it's what we do with that increased productivity and wealth. It's the same as most economic issues in the US, what's to be done when 80% of every dollar ends up in the hands of a smaller and smaller group of people. Those people will tell you the immigrants are taking your jobs, they're leeches and interlopers but those same people will exploit that new labor just the same.
There's no evidence that immigrants hurt any American workers [vox.com]
Debunking the Myth of the Job-Stealing Immigrant [nytimes.com]
THE EFFECTS OF IMMIGRATION ON THE UNITED STATES’ ECONOMY [upenn.edu]
Re:Good (Score:4, Informative)
Of the three links, the NYT one is paywalled, but the others did not address STEM specifically but did mention the lower educated low skill workers tend to be a drain on the economy. I work in STEM. My experience is that skilled foreign STEM workers are exploited with lower pay and harsher working conditions. The companies that hire them are not hiring skilled US citizens because they don't need to, or the US workers turn them down, but they often don't get an offer. E.g. when I interviewed with Goldman-Sachs, I never talked to anyone that wasn't from India. At one job I was let go because they outsourced it to India.
Don't get me wrong. I work with two excellent software engineers that are foreign. One is offshore and the other is an immigrant. The problem I have is when my job is taken or I can't get an interview or an offer because I'm competing with an immigrant worker who is in the US only because of that job. I seen this multiple times.
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Yeah for sure the system need a lot of reforms, foreign workers with the work visas are pretty easy to exploit by companies, the whole system is convoluted and expensive on top of that and that's only the legal side of the equation.
But still even these issues are systemic issues around immigration and not the immigrants themselves. In your example the immigrant worker should be able to be let go if you are are a better candidate for the position, they shouldn't get a baked in advantage but on the flip side
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"My experience is that skilled foreign STEM workers are exploited with lower pay and harsher working conditions."
These are not H-1B visas. They do not have the same employer sponsorship requirements and they are fast-tracked to permanent residence. If they are receiving bad working conditions they can walk as easily as any citizen or permanent resident..
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By "harsher working conditions" I mean that benefits may be less appealing, agile/scrum is misused, workers are all in one big room with small desks right next to each other with no partitions, performance reviews are brutal with unrealistic goals, long hours are required often, and/or job descriptions keep changing so no one fits their job description anymore (giving them a reason to fire anyone), etc., and everyone feels like they are on the edge of getting fired because there appears to be random firings
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Reverse brain drain (Score:1)
What this means is that the US will open the doors for the smartest, best educated, and best performing people from other countries. Many of them apparently do want to come here, and it is at the expense of their home countries. Their loss, our gain.
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What you fail to tell me is why they should come to the US, of all places.
Why should I go to the US when I can also go to Europe and get less crime, less jingoism but better healthcare?
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What you fail to tell me is why they should come to the US, of all places.
Why should I go to the US when I can also go to Europe and get less crime, less jingoism but better healthcare?
Because they have a dream of making it rich.
They don't have a sensible plan of leading a happy fulfilling life with slightly less money in a nice safe country.
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That dream died ages ago.
I know, the old American dream was "work hard, climb the ladder and if you're industrious and a hard worker, you'll be rich one day". But let's face it, everyone knows that this is no longer possible. To get rich in the US, you either need to be rich to begin with or have SO much luck that the more sensible option is to play the lottery in the first place. Less work, about the same chance of succeeding as a poor fuck.
So that's the new American dream. Play the lottery, hope for the b
Re: (Score:2)
That dream died ages ago.
Weren't we talking about non-Americans?
They don't know that.
Nice stable decent they can go to many European countries or Canada, Australia. If you dream of making it big though, you go to America.
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They know that. C'mon. You do know that we have the internet abroad, too, yes?
The only people who still come are the ones that don't want it to be true, because they are all-in on it and can't afford to lose. They cling to that hopeless dream with all their might because it's all they have left.
And don't you already have enough of these poor saps?
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The only people who still come are the ones that don't want it to be true, because they are all-in on it and can't afford to lose. They cling to that hopeless dream with all their might because it's all they have left.
That's the point I was trying to get across. (not very successfully it seems)
America still attracts the dreamers who want to make it big. Contrasted to the more realistic people who are more likely to consider other western countries instead.
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But that's the problem, you don't need people who have pipedreams. There's plenty of those already available.
Eventually they will notice that they've been conned and then you have yet another conspiracy loony at your hand who is desperately looking for someone to blame for being kept down, because it's entirely impossible that it's their own fault, and of course The Dream must not be over. So pick your favorite group of people to blame and hate, and eventually kill.
Yeah, we sure need more of these goofballs
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Don't come to the US, who cares? But obviously a considerable number of people do want in.
"the number of STEM EB-2 visas approved in 2022 after a "national interest" waiver shot up by 55% over 2021"
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But you know what it will be abused for (Score:3)
"STEM? Yes, me do STEM good. Me also do roots good, and petals, and leaves..."
"Great, please come in!"
Let's face it, any kind of immigration rule will be abused until it serves whatever the highest bidder throws at it.
Great, that won't be abused. (Score:3)
Why does my wallet suddenly hurt?
The problem (Score:3)
The problem isn't a lack of stem workers, it is a lack of CHEAP stem workers.
which stem workers? (Score:2)
The problem is that India has an available pool of infinity tech workers, and China has aleph_1. What the US needs is the highest-skilled tech workers, not the lowest-skilled, so there is no way to know if this is good or bad for the US.
quisling gub'mnt (Score:2)