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Education

New York Will Start Requiring Credentials for All CS Teachers (govtech.com) 48

Posted by EditorDavid from the teacher-leave-those-kids-alone dept.
Long-time Slashdot reader theodp writes: In 2012, Microsoft President Brad Smith unveiled Microsoft's National Talent Strategy, which called for K-12 Computer Science education for U.S. schoolchildren to address a "talent crisis [that] endangers long-term growth and prosperity". The following year, tech-backed nonprofit Code.org burst onto the scene to deliver that education to schoolchildren, with Smith and execs from tech giants Google and Amazon on its Board of Directors (and Code.org donors Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg as lead K-12 CS instructors).

Using a mix of paid individuals, universities and other organizations that it helped to fund, along with online self-paced courses, Code.org boasts it quickly "prepared more than 106,000 new teachers to teach CS across grades K-12" through its professional learning programs. "No computer science experience required," Code.org teases prospective K-12 teachers (as does Code.org partner Amazon Future Engineer). Code.org organized K-12 CS teacher workforce expansion workshops.

However, at least one state is taking steps to put an end to the practice of rebranding individuals as K-12 CS teachers in as little as a day, albeit with a generous 10-year loophole for currently uncertified K-12 CS teachers. "At the start of the 2024-2025 academic year," reports GovTech, "the New York State Education Department (NYSED) is honing its credential requirements for computer science teachers, though the state has yet to join the growing list of those mandating computer science instruction for high school graduation. According to the department's website, as of Sept. 1, 2024, educators who teach computer science will need either a Computer Science Certificate issued by the state Board of Regents or a Computer Science Statement of Continued Eligibility (SOCE), which may be given to instructors who don't have the specific certificate but have nonetheless taught computer science since Sept. 1, 2017....

"The NYSED website says the SOCE is a temporary measure that will be phased out after 10 years, at which point all computer science instructors will need a Computer Science Certificate."
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New York Will Start Requiring Credentials for All CS Teachers More

New York Will Start Requiring Credentials for All CS Teachers

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  • I'm not finding much in the way of details regarding these particular required "credentials". If it's something developed and offered by NY-based colleges, well and good. If it's yet another Microsoft-driven effort that pretends to be about education but is really all about forcing Microsoft products down people's throats through the back door... not so good.

  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] A long resume as a lawyer, much of it in technology, but it's not clear to me he learned to code.

  • We all know where this is going. People must know Microsoft Office 367, admin Windows 11, SQL Server and Azure ...

    What about the real world, sorry, Linux, Oracle, DB/2 and other methods of setting up Enterprise Cloud ? Microsoft says they have no value.

    Sorry NY, if you go for this free Money, you students will end up doing other things because once they get out to the "real world", they will need to be retrained. Or at worse, they will be trapped in a Microsoft Shop without the ability to work elsewhere.

    • Re:What are the Credentials ? (Score:4, Informative)

      by codebase7 ( 9682010 ) on Saturday February 24, 2024 @06:18PM (#64266114)
      All "Computer Science" credentials are bogus anyway.

      Most of them only certify you to be trained in a specific version of a product. That's not just a practice of Microsoft's, it's something the entire industry does. (Lock in, guaranteed annual profits for re-certification.)

      Most of them don't cover basic fundamentals of computer technology. No, I'm not just referring to what a UI design element (icon, menu, CLI prompt) is. I'm referring to how the actual software works from a general perspective. (I.e. What a pointer / register / opcode / privilege level / logical operation / arithmetic operation / instruction pointer / addressing mode / stack / heap / etc. is, what is their purpose, and how they interact with each other.) Note that all of those are applicable to any modern software design regardless of "language."

      This has absolutely nothing to do with actual teaching. It has everything to do with legally mandating a new profit stream for incumbent multinational corporations on the legislator's donor list.

      • All "Computer Science" credentials are bogus anyway.

        I'd have to agree with you, but for a different reason. Instead of Computer Science, let's say we wanted all students to have Automotive Repair education. What are the minimum requirements to show proficiency?

        Do they focus on the fundamentals of early internal combustion engines? Points, timing, dwell, cam profiles?
        Do they teach new troubleshooting fundamentals? Bear or Sun engine diagnostic machines? Can-Bus monitoring? Troublecode analysis?
        Do they teach newer technologies like Li-Ion charging practi

  • Certification is a bit of a racket.

    • That is a massive understatement. Certification is by *design* a racket. This is a pattern as old as medieval guilds, where certification kept prices artificially high by raising the barrier to entry.

      Now, not everyone can teach. And not everyone can code. And a vanishingly few can do both.

      But here's the dirty little secret - the best coders across the board are those that learned more by themselves than in any classroom. "Certified teachers" aren't going to build the next vanguard of l33t h4ck3rs, they

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by narcc ( 412956 )

        But here's the dirty little secret - the best coders across the board are those that learned more by themselves than in any classroom.

        If you just need someone to crank out forms for your LOB app, I don't see anything wrong with hiring someone self-taught. You'll be able to address any deficiencies that affect the work they're expected to do. For anything else, you'll want someone with a proper education.

        The trouble with autodidacts is that they don't know what it is that they don't know. There's also the tendency for people to place less emphasis or importance on topics they find difficult or uninteresting. Left on their own, they'll m

        • In my experience, self-taught "coders" near universally overestimate their own abilities, many even fancy themselves competent mathematicians and logicians just because they're familiar with a few relational and boolean operators!

          Interesting. I find that people who can learn on their own, and test their knowledge through the direct application of skill, learn what their ability level is much quicker than those people who are never actually testing their direct application of skill.

          No amount of skill is go

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by narcc ( 412956 )

            I can learn about every algorithm and data structure in the history of mankind without ever having a teacher stand up in front of a classroom and teach me.

            You have a pretty poor understanding of formal education if you think it's all about dusty old classroom lectures. That aside, there are other problems with your claim, and that is it's irrelevant if you can when it's obvious that you won't. Again, a major advantage of formal learning over informal learning is that it forces you to work through concepts you might find difficult or uninteresting. The autodidact will, more often than not, dismiss something they're not interested in or have trouble understa

            • You have a pretty poor understanding of formal education if you think it's all about dusty old classroom lectures.

              Or, formal education is pretty poor at being more than dusty old classroom lectures for the vast majority of computer engineering majors. Now, perhaps a double major at a high-end university isn't a good example of formal education, but victim blaming the student doesn't seem persuasive.

              Again, a major advantage of formal learning over informal learning is that it forces you to work through co

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by narcc ( 412956 )

                Let's try a different context. Another well-known breed of autodidact is the 'science fan'. They eagerly devour every popular book and article on their favorite topic and discuss it endlessly on internet forums with other like-minded fans of science. Do you know what they all have in common? Never once has anyone of them taken the time to understand or work though what is often just simple math. Consequently, they never develop more than a superficial understanding of the subject

                Autodidact "coders" are

                • The best autodidacts who learn coding on their own also manage to learn mathematics on their own too :).

                  While it's true that a proper education is no guarantee that you will become a competent developer, the lack of one will absolutely limit you in real and significant ways.

                  Oh sweet summer child.

                  I'll avoid citing all of the standard famous examples of people without a "proper education" according to the elite class, but I'm sure somewhere, a university has a course that highlights them and their amazing acc

                  • Re: (Score:2)

                    by narcc ( 412956 )

                    The best autodidacts who learn coding on their own also manage to learn mathematics on their own too :).

                    You're delusional. Just about every single one of them make that claim, but I've yet to meet one who could even handle high school algebra.

                    Despite what endless crackpots have claimed, a lack of education is not a strength.

                    send the autodidacts right out the door.

                    What makes you think they'd get an interview? There are tons of well-qualified people to pick from. Sorting though those is bad enough. No one has the time to wade through the shit looking for your imaginary unicorn

                    I'll avoid citing

                    Why am I not surprised?

                    As a competent developer, who [...]

                    That is highly unlikely.

                    rather than what they've been "certified" for

                    Oh, I see. You're one o

                    • You're delusional. Just about every single one of them make that claim, but I've yet to meet one who could even handle high school algebra.

                      Okay. Start your count now. You've met one :)

                      What makes you think they'd get an interview? There are tons of well-qualified people to pick from.

                      Have you ever experienced a difference between "well-qualified" and "an effective and valuable employee"?

                      Oh, I see. You're one of those who think industry certifications count as a proper education. That explains quite a bit.

                    • Re: (Score:2)

                      by narcc ( 412956 )

                      Okay. Start your count now. You've met one :)

                      Sure, Jan. Whatever you say.

                      Have you ever experienced a difference between "well-qualified" and "an effective and valuable employee"?

                      While not all well-qualified employees are also effective and valuable, all effective and valuable employees are also well-qualified.

                      Please, change my mind.

                      You already agree with me, you're just trying to "win" an argument you lost long ago. Would you trust a self-taught surgeon for a major procedure or would you demand one with appropriate qualifications?

                    • While not all well-qualified employees are also effective and valuable, all effective and valuable employees are also well-qualified.

                      Yes, of course. Nobody effective or valuable ever dropped out of college. Or high school. Or did anything useful without proper credentials.

                      I get it, you're speaking hyperbolically, not literally. Nobody can possibly posit such an absolutist statement in good faith :)

                      Would you trust a self-taught surgeon for a major procedure or would you demand one with appropriate qualif

                    • Re: (Score:2)

                      by narcc ( 412956 )

                      Would you trust a surgeon who

                      Oh, look at that. When it comes to something that matters, suddenly it's not enough to be self-taught.

                      Like I said. You already agree with me. You lost the argument long ago. You're just struggling to accept reality.

                    • When it comes to something that matters, suddenly it's not enough to be self-taught.

                      I seem to be moving too fast for you to keep up. Let me slow down and be more clear.

                      1) two people go through formal education for surgery, one is "well-qualified" with high scores and academic accolades from Harvard, and the other one barely passes from a sketchy mexican med school.

                      2) the one who barely passes works as a surgeon for twenty years, proving themselves through thousands of successful surgeries, learning, throug

                    • Re: (Score:2)

                      by narcc ( 412956 )

                      You can change your claims all you want, I'll take it as an admission of defeat.

                      you've made some baseless assertions and then walked them back

                      LOL! That's what you're doing! My claims haven't changed. Name one "baseless" assertion that I've walked back. Who do you think you're fooling with that bullshit?

                      Pathetic.

                    • Claim: "While not all well-qualified employees are also effective and valuable, all effective and valuable employees are also well-qualified."

                      You accepted my observation that this was clearly hyperbolic.

                      Would you like to double down and insist that there has never been an effective and valuable employee who was not "well-qualified"? Or perhaps you mean to walk back and define "well-qualified" as "not necessarily formally educated"?

                      Have I given you too much benefit of the doubt here?

      • until the BJJ guy shuffles across the floor on his ass and then gets kicked in the head. though it is a good exanple of the same blindess of CS education ie. business saying we want people trained in this instead of a genral education because we dont want to pay for the training.

        • I'll leave the gracie challenge videos as an exercise for the reader to compare martial arts efficacy :)

          I have never met a CS grad who was useful because of their degree. The "training" you get in a college course isn't anywhere near the things you need to learn, on the job, or in your own passionate home lab.

          What's even more craptastic is the 5-day trainings your business will send you to, run by IBM, that leaves you no more useful a tech than you were before. The people who become good at being a tech a

          • you mean the fights where they set the rules to suit themselves, not doubting they are skilled fighters but as they say one punch can floor a grappler and all the striking skills in the world dont help if that grappler hits you with the planet.

            • Completely agreed. I think the difference between shotokan and bjj is like the difference between tai chi and muay thai - if you have actual, fully resisting partners, you're doing something useful. If you're learning forms and dances, you might be improving your flexibility and balance and strength, but you're not developing fighting skill.

              Fighting skill (grappling or striking) is built through fighting, not through academic study. This is the same with teaching skill or coding skill.

      • My concern is that this will start down the path of CompTIA. I am sure, well, I hope, that they originally had good intentions. However, it immediately became a feedback loop. CompTIA certification became required for certain positions. Everyone became CompTIA certified. Now that everyone had that certification, creating another level of certification was necessary to keep the CompTIA monster alive. You might ask, who lobbied to require CompTIA certification in the first place? You probably shouldn't ask th
  • ...to see the USA's patriotic tech giants working together, hand in hand, to further degrade the US public education system.

  • They can teach CS, but can they teach children in a classroom ?
    Teaching is a complex profession, hack coding isn't.

    • Teaching degrees are useless. What matters is flight time.

      Every first year teacher struggles mightily. By about year 5 they've reached their peak performance. Some make take significantly more, or slightly less time than that, but teaching is not mysterious, nor is it truly learned outside of *actually* doing it.

      This is also true of computer certifications - they're useless. What matters is flight time.

    • >can they teach children in a classroom

      I had this conversation with one of my favourite teachers over 30 years ago. I was marvelling at his ability to teach people with a variety of backgrounds and thought processes and remarked that Teacher's College must have a pretty good program for teaching teachers how to teach. ...He said that was something they pretty much didn't cover at all, teachers have to figure it out on their own. I'm not sure what else a Teacher's College should cover, since presumably

      • >can they teach children in a classroom

        I had this conversation with one of my favourite teachers over 30 years ago. I was marvelling at his ability to teach people with a variety of backgrounds and thought processes and remarked that Teacher's College must have a pretty good program for teaching teachers how to teach. ...He said that was something they pretty much didn't cover at all, teachers have to figure it out on their own. I'm not sure what else a Teacher's College should cover, since presumably you've already learned the subjects you want to teach by the time you get there. I was kind of young and did not ask the obvious follow up question of "well what the hell DO they teach, then?"

        Teacher's colleges generally do a bad job of teaching how to teach. Some teachers are naturals. Most are not. There is a boatload of academic research on effective teaching methods and it is entirely ignored by schools and most teacher training programs. Anything good that comes on down is corrupted, monetized and ruined by publishers turning it into another means to move moeny from school boards to their pockets.

  • I'd bet a paycheck that 99% or more "CS classes" in NY public schools are actually just programming classes.

  • When there is no state approved CS program. No CS track leading to and accepted by NY universities. All there is is the two AP, and that is hardly worth credentialing for.

  • In 10 years, teachers will long be obsolete and replaced by AI, so this is really not relevant.

    • You are absolutely incorrect.
      Back before your were born there existed TVs and VHS machines.
      The thinking was, all we have to do is get the best teaches in the world to create engaging courses, record them, and fill large rooms with little TVs with VHS players and PROFIT.

      Guess what they found?

      A teacher is more than a content delivery device. A teacher encourages, is positive and enthusiastic, believes in their students, offers specific and sometimes hard to swallow feedback, celebrates success, builds relati

  • Right now in states like Michigan, they had a Computer Science endorsement and then dropped it.
    https://computinged.wordpress.... [wordpress.com]

    And replaced it with this:
    Teachers who currently hold the endorsements will continue to see them displayed on their certificates and may continue to teach in those areas. However, starting in 2017-18, administrators will have discretion in assigning a teacher in those endorsement areas. For example, a teacher with a computer science endorsement may be assigned to teach computer sci

  • ... has credentialed teachers. So we see how well that works.
  • Back when I was a CS Department chair, an undergrad major wanted to teach CS at the secondary level---good for him, we thought. We contacted the Education Department to try to fashion a degree for him that made him employable by high schools and also qualified in CS as a minor (you have to know more than you teach to be successful). We thought this could be YA degree option, and the people could also learn about managing LANs by apprenticing with our staff. But there was no interest or flexibility in trying
  • This is great news! This will ensure a high level of education in this area. The teachers taught me little and I had to look for a personal statement writing service, I used https://ca.edubirdie.com/personal-statement-writing-service [edubirdie.com] for this. Believe me, I didn't really like it. But I had to do it.

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