California Bill Would Require Computer Science For High School Graduation 202
At a press conference last week, a California Assemblymember joined the State Superintendent of Public Instruction in announcing a bill that, if passed, would require every public high school to teach computer science. (And establish CS as a high school graduation requirement by the 2030-31 school year.)
Long-time Slashdot reader theodp says he noticed posters with CS-education advocacy charts and stats "copied verbatim" from the tech giant-backed nonprofit Code.org. (And "a California Dept. of Education news release also echoed Code.org K-12 CS advocacy factoids.") The announcement came less than two weeks after Code.org CEO Hadi Partovi — whose goal is to make CS a HS graduation requirement in all 50 states by 2030 — was a keynote speaker at the Association of California School Administrators Superintendents' Symposium. Even back in an October 20 Facebook post, [California state assemblyman] Berman noted he'd partnered with Code.org on legislation in the past and hinted that something big was in the works on the K-12 CS education front for California. "I had the chance to attend Code.org's 10th anniversary celebration and chat with their founder, Hadi Partovi, as well as CS advocate Aloe Blacc. They've done amazing work expanding access to computer science education... and I've been proud to partner with them on legislation to do that in CA. More to come!"
Long-time Slashdot reader theodp says he noticed posters with CS-education advocacy charts and stats "copied verbatim" from the tech giant-backed nonprofit Code.org. (And "a California Dept. of Education news release also echoed Code.org K-12 CS advocacy factoids.") The announcement came less than two weeks after Code.org CEO Hadi Partovi — whose goal is to make CS a HS graduation requirement in all 50 states by 2030 — was a keynote speaker at the Association of California School Administrators Superintendents' Symposium. Even back in an October 20 Facebook post, [California state assemblyman] Berman noted he'd partnered with Code.org on legislation in the past and hinted that something big was in the works on the K-12 CS education front for California. "I had the chance to attend Code.org's 10th anniversary celebration and chat with their founder, Hadi Partovi, as well as CS advocate Aloe Blacc. They've done amazing work expanding access to computer science education... and I've been proud to partner with them on legislation to do that in CA. More to come!"
Some states did that in the 1980s. (Score:4, Informative)
Was called "programming" back then. Eventually that went away. Way to be on the ball Cali.
Re: Some states did that in the 1980s. (Score:3, Informative)
It used to be that math was a requirement. States are doing away with that now. hahahahaha
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This country has been chewed up, digested, and is oozing through the sewers now.
Karmarkar Algorithm (Score:2)
Linear programming isn't covered in your child's HS, so you had to teach them linear programming.
Simplex, or did you home-school on the Karmarkar interior-point algorithm?
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Back when I was in HS there were a few class periods each semester that could be filled with "electives". I'm guessing the CS courses could be added to the student's senior year and let them select fewer elective courses. No dropped classes needed if electives are still an available option.
Re: Some states did that in the 1980s. (Score:4, Informative)
Some California high schools have dedicated engineering programs. It depends on how wealthy your community is. The average California high school sucks. They rank about the 40th state nationally quality. Adding a new subject won't help solved the problem. They don't generally teach the existing required subjects well.
I see - here is a ranking of high school quality by state. https://www.usnews.com/educati... [usnews.com]
They seem to have California's ranking a little off from yours - like by 37 places.
The top 5 are Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey, California and Florida. Can you explain why your figures are off by 37 places?
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Well, kids failed it and it made us look dumb.
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Back then, when you turned on a computer, it would prompt you with a programming language.
Nowadays it do everything in its power to stop you from writing your own programs, with many popular devices being impossible to do so without unlocking the hardware.
Re:Some states did that in the 1980s. (Score:5, Insightful)
Nowadays it do everything in its power to stop you from writing your own programs
Except for the dozens of programming languages able to run in a browser on hundreds of websites.
A $15 Raspberry Pi Zero-W comes with C++, Python, and JavaScript preinstalled, and dozens of other languages installable with a few clicks.
Programming is more accessible than ever.
Re:Some states did that in the 1980s. (Score:5, Insightful)
> Programming is more accessible than ever.
Yes and no. Back in the day, you booted up to a BASIC> prompt, and had to type something to make anything happen. In some sense, you were programming, even if you just wanted to play a game.
Now you've got to *want* to program something to be able to program anything. That is, you've got to specifically seek out some way to do some programming. As such, a kid who doesn't know it's going to be fun might never really try it (unless prodded into it via education/parenting etc).
I will of course concede that once you want to do some programming, there are so many more resources around to help you do it. And pretty much any error you get can be solved with a couple of web searches. Contrast to back in the day when if you wanted something to work, you had to really fix it because no one else was going to help you at all.
Re:Some states did that in the 1980s. (Score:5, Informative)
Apple computers come with Python, Perl, Ruby, JavaScript, and AppleScript preinstalled.
C, C++, and Swift can be installed with a single command.
If you install Homebrew, dozens more languages can be installed with a single command.
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People want to program their hardware, not some theoretical model.
Start in a browser to learn the basics in a safe environment.
Then buy a $5 Arduino and program real hardware.
Re:Some states did that in the 1980s. (Score:4, Informative)
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The future of government is paperless too, even if the transition goes at a very slow pace. Disclaimer: I work in a government job in EU.
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You know federal courts require everything to be e-filed now, right? Lots of state courts are the same.
The lawyers wheeling boxes of paper into court days are mostly over now.
Re: Some states did that in the 1980s. (Score:3)
Oh those classes were AMAZING I can tell you! They let the lowest of the low, the true bottom of the barrel, teach those classes.. the geography and physical education teachers. You know, the ones who had so much time on their hands they could easily squeeze in a whole third subject because they were so lazy and had so little to do in the first two. It was glorious, they would have to get clarifications every lesson, they had significantly less idea than half the class of self taught geeks, programmers, bor
This will be the death of node.js! (Score:4, Funny)
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How is your rust implementation of node.js coming along?
This will be low challenge CS (Score:4, Insightful)
CS is hard - and a substantial proportion of the population will not pass this. Therefore the quality of the CS offered will be rather low to ensure this doesn't lower graduation levels even further (or they'll hand out passes for nothing... a recent documentary about refugee kids reported than an illiterate kid was getting As and Bs at an Atlanta Middle School).
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We used to call that "social promotion".
Re:This will be low challenge CS (Score:4)
It depends on what level of CS they are going for. If teaching the basics of "a program does something in steps", "this is what a function does", and stuff along those lines, that sort of makes sense. Even if it is just teaching kids the basics of a PC, like what a filesystem is, what an OS is, how to install an OS, why backups are important, what types of backups... not CS per se, but basic computer literacy. There are people out there who have no ideas where their files are stored because they lived their lives using ChromeBooks or iPads, and the fact that there is so much abstracting hiding /var/mobile (on iOS/iPadOS) away.
Maybe even a tier of basic cyber-security, just so they are not easy prey for ransomware.
Helpful (Score:2)
Thank you
Why not require auto and hvac repair as well? (Score:5, Insightful)
But coding? Sorry, that’s a specialty under-the-hood type of skill. It’s the difference between being able to drive a car, and being able to disassemble and repair your transmission. One of these things is required, and one is a specialty profession.
This is being pushed by SV types and computer people who are probably brilliant programmers but unable to make buttered toast or navigate a room with more than 15 people in it.
In any case, the bottom 10 percent of students are near-functionally illiterate and always will be. Coding as a requirement for high school graduation? Ridiculous. And while we’re on the subject. Basic-level algebra/trig, physics, chemistry and biology would all rank higher in importance than coding.
Re:Why not require auto and hvac repair as well? (Score:5, Insightful)
t’s the difference between being able to drive a car, and being able to disassemble and repair your transmission. One of these things is required, and one is a specialty profession.
To be more explicit, coding is a shop class. Its for those who have a curiosity, to learn if they have aptitude. So you offer an intro class for the curious, and more advanced classes for those with aptitude.
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Basic-level algebra/trig, physics, chemistry and biology would all rank higher in importance than coding.
Why? As skills go, being able to do some basic coding seems like it would have far more practical use in adult life.
Remember that this is school level. These kids are not going to go straight into a dev job. They might take that skill to university, or they might use it to automate some task in their non-coding job, or it might just teach them to think logically about problems and break them down into algorithms.
Coding is a very useful skill to have.
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It's possible to teach that without a language: Logo was developed to teach procedure and thinking spatially (2D) to young children, maths and data were not a priority.
This requirement won't be CS (maths about doing calculations) and won't be teaching them to use actual tools (telnet, desktop publisher, vector/clip-art editor, spreadsheet, word processor, slide presenter) competently: It'll be a dog-fight between corporations to base the curriculum on their preferred coding language. Similar to everyon
Demystefy (Score:2)
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Because auto and hvac [sic] repair can be learned on the job in a few minutes.
LOL. Right, and someone who learns java script in a few minutes is ready to write the payroll software for your employer.
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He was sarcastic, seems you missed that. So I took the liberty to point that out :P
I was laughing with him not at him. Apologies for not making that obvious enough for you. :-)
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Because auto and hvac [sic] repair can be learned on the job in a few minutes.
You have an interesting take on what 'a few minutes' means. I think you mean 'a few years'.
Is that you Mayor Bloomberg? (Score:3)
Because auto and hvac [sic] repair can be learned on the job in a few minutes.
Is that you Mister Bloomberg?
“I could teach anybody, even people in this room, no offense intended, to be a farmer. It’s a process. You dig a hole, you put a seed in, you put dirt on top, you add water, up comes the corn. You could learn that.”
2020 Democratic Presidential nomination contender Michael Bloomberg
Former mayor of New York City.
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Um wow. The ignorance Bloomberg demonstrates is "excessive".
Note: I went to high school in Nebraska. The capital, actually. Still "Corn Country" meant that I was taught about corn. Anyways, back on ignorance, almost willful ignorance. Many of the first colleges started in the USA were specifically farmer's colleges, for teaching agricultural skills. Sure, you can start very easily, but that will just end up with a dead crop. Like my growing attempts.
For farming, planting the seed is the "easy" part.
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Many of the first colleges started in the USA were specifically farmer's colleges
I studied computer science in the 1980s in California. I made a friend in the agriculture department, one day we had to stop by the ag computer lab. It was better than what we had in cs. I was blown away by all the specialty software for planning and managing crops. Determining fertilizer and water needs, etc. It was impressive to a young computer nerd. And it was all considering profitability not just efficiency, so a young business nerd would probably have been impressed too. And this was 40 years ago.
No wonder you have trouble with HVAC (Score:4, Funny)
You sig as much as admits you "don't read AC."
If you don't read about one, how do you expect to make repairs on an AC?
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One of these days I need to change my sig.
AC in this case is Anonymous Cowards, not Air Conditioning, Alternating Current, Access Control, Actinium, Absorbtion Chiller, etc...
I actually have a pretty good grasp of how air conditioning works theory wise. It's the practice that gets messy.
I have a tree named "Bloomberg" (Score:2)
The white-tail deer girdled the bark on an apple tree I had just planted.
Following the former NYC Mayor's instructions, I cut off the top, dug a hole, dropped in the cutting, filled it with dirt and watered it.
I thought it withered and died, but the next spring it started sprouting leaves. Michael Bloomberg really knows how to hack agriculture.
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The white-tail deer girdled the bark on an apple tree I had just planted. Following the former NYC Mayor's instructions, I cut off the top, dug a hole, dropped in the cutting, filled it with dirt and watered it. I thought it withered and died, but the next spring it started sprouting leaves. Michael Bloomberg really knows how to hack agriculture.
And then it died as it was constantly in the shade of the older and larger apple trees. :-)
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Why? (Score:4, Interesting)
AI will be doing this all in 10 years time. Why train kids for obsolete professions?
I truly don't know whether or not to add a /s tag.
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It's not "why", it's "why bother".
CA is doing horrible producing students who have a good understanding of English and math. With even our poor graduation rates (lower than 85%), it's even worse than that because we've lowered our standards to achieve even that.
I like it but not for computing (Score:2)
Programming teaches logical thinking and how to break problems down in to solvable pieces. Hell, just BASIC is fine.
How bout some personal finance? (Score:3)
And maybe guide them through the process of forming a business entity to minimize taxes on their gig work income?
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And maybe guide them through the process of forming a business entity to minimize taxes on their gig work income?
I wonder if this proposal stated what would be dropped to make room for this. Personally, as a programmer, I can think of a ton of other things I'd add first: American history, English, economics, civics, European history, psychology, non-western history, music (either performance or appreciation), languages, home economics, shop, business, how to detect bulls**t on social media. Or how about we make sure California students are competent at the curriculum we already have?
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CS, really programming, is a shop class (Score:5, Insightful)
A computer literacy class, where they learn about word processors, spreadsheet, how the internet usually lies and email and texts with links are usually malware. Yeah, that could be a required class for all, unlike programming.
A real Computer Science class is an advanced placement level class for kids taking the advanced math classes. Its not for everyone.
Computer science? Or computer literacy? (Score:2)
Computer Science is not a high school topic, at best it will be an introduction to computer programming.
I took computer classes in high school. The first semester "Computer I" class was mostly about what I'd call "computer literacy", how to perform basic operations on a computer and an introduction to various applications like a word processor, spreadsheet, database, drawing/graphics, and so on. The second semester "Computer II" class did have some programming and basics of the science like different sorting algorithms and how to build our own database.
With computers being introduced to children at much you
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Depending on the school and/or how old the pr
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nailed it!
Yes, it's really just going to be a basic computer class and it should be. They had typing class in most schools since the 80s I believe but it was not required when I was in school. That should be part of a computer class. ALL people deal with computers today so a basic foundation should be required. A tiny taste of what more there is to hook the interested in doing more on their own. A laptop rental program or something for the ones without a real computer is a good idea. Online self-learning
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1991 Grade VI - Pascal+QubeCalc+Wordpress
1992 Grade VII - Pascal+ Access+Foxpro
1993 Grade VIII - Pascal +some DTP software+some photoshop
1994-95 Grade IX-X - C and Datastructures and Boolean Algebra with a National level Board exam
1996-97 Grade XI-XII - C++. advanced data structures upto creating an accounting system for a car dealership as a class project and a national level Board Exam
Than College for BE Computers
1997 Intro to programming. Repeating stuff done in Middle Sc
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But US is a lot richer than India which is why I was surprised my children did not get a programming class till high school and this i
First things first (Score:3)
meanwhile in Alabama (Score:2)
I hear they're taking reading off the SATs down there lately.
I went to college in Alabama (Score:2)
you ignorant clod!
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This is stupid (Score:2)
You can't force kids to learn how to program. No one would hire a kid that was forced to do it. You have to want to learn it and most schools already have some computer course as an elective already. Besides, the barrier to entry and self-education is almost non-existent these days.
I'd rather they invest some time into developing life skills like personal finance and trade skills like auto shop. My mechanic says there is a dearth of mechanics, especially young mechanics with basic skills that would like
Auto mechanics are not well paid (Score:2)
especially if they are employees of a dealership or large auto-repair shop.
But, hey, so are people who code!
Re: Auto mechanics are not well paid (Score:2)
Auto mechanics is a dead end job (Score:2)
STOP THIS (Score:3)
CA's public school is decaying fast. There are undeveloped nations with SUPERIOR school systems to CA's public schools.
CA, in fact America, needs to focus on getting our core right esp. in the primary schools. In secondary, for first 2 years, expand on that, and then allow for last 2 to move ppl into arenas that make sense. It makes no sense for someone that is not going to go to higher education to take up C. Sci. Instead, make sure that they have REAL LIFE SKILLS.
Not such a bad thing (Score:2)
Sure, if more people knew what a linked list was, we'd live in a better world.
At the very least this will give young people the opportunity to discover if they might have an unexpected aptitude for the subject.
Re: Not such a bad thing (Score:2)
Why even bother? It's literally built into the language already.
https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/... [rust-lang.org]
My god you guys are so fucking bad at this. There's actually a rust book about this that's pure satire disguised as educational material.
https://rust-unofficial.github... [github.io]
Ok (Score:2)
Some people will not have an aptitude (Score:2)
Another day, another dose of CA lawmaker stupidity (Score:2, Insightful)
This is my state, and it never ceases to amaze me that the limits are off on the stupid here in our government.
California schools are currently turning out highschool graduates who are dumber than ever before. They lack math skills, English skills, knowledge of history, geography, government, basic science etc, but they know how to deploy condoms and dental dams, are pretty sure there are 50+ human genders, and think the state was once racially segregated (it never was) and hosted slavery (never did). Into
Need a 2nd place in the Valley We Can Buy Resistor (Score:2)
What's meant by "Computer Science"? (Score:2)
I did some tutoring in a fairly low achieving school where fifth graders were taking a (I think required) "computer science" class. I was surprised - until it turned out it was mostly learning how to use Word and should have been called something else (perhaps "computer applications").
Students certainly should be able to use and build a basic spreadsheet and use a basic word processing application before graduating from high school. This might be done thorough a "computer literacy" class -- but certainly sh
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By calling the class "Computer Science" the school can check off a required box on government mandates.
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What I've seen ranges from basic computer understanding which is sorely needed as the college students I see are pathetic and a step back from previous generations. A few almost never used a computer because they had a smart phone instead... and they thought the charger *was* the USB cable! (not the "butt" that they plugged into the wall...their term not mine.)
I've seen AP inspired too; it was embarrassing and even wrong at points but looked like it had a lot of discrete math... now Discrete Math wouldn't h
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California Bill... (Score:2)
California Bill...is he in any way related to Florida Man? I think we should be told.
Bigger Question (Score:5, Insightful)
Where are you going to get the teachers for this? I was a high school computer science teacher for 18 years. I have a background in programming. During my two year course I taught students computer repair (CompTIA A+), networking (Network+ and the first two semesters of CCNA), and programming. Programming was a 9 week introduction using Python. To keep the students engaged and interested I used game programming techniques. The students I had were already interested in technology and had to apply for the 50 seats available per year. Even then only about 20% of the students actually could make sense of programming, and of those maybe one to three each year actually had true potential. To my point, where are you going to find enough programming teachers with a programming background? Simple answer, you are not. Schools will end up retasking math teachers to teach something like Scratch. You know, with great programming theory like, "think of a variable as a bucket you can put things into." That scenario alienates those that actually have potential, or at least get it, because it's being dumbed down so much. You need teachers that have actually programmed to teach a programming class.
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"They cheat" - not only the students but the teachers as well. One of the reasons I left the profession was due to my state mandating that all students leave programs like mine with two industry certifications. Sounds great right? Well, thanks to No Child Left Behind and it's later iterations my classroom was no longer allowed to select students. I was increasingly getting students that applied for auto repair, CAD/CAM, Robotics (basically industrial PLC and light machining), and other programs. "Sorry kid,
There seem to be two streams of corruption. (Score:2)
for what? (Score:2)
Most people won't be designing software or computer internals.
How about focusing on math, reading, speaking and writing? For bonus basic business and finances? Many graduates seem to have a problem with all those things, and a good job and good personal life can use those fundamental things.
I had not one computer class and I'm making a living in devops. A high schooler needs computer science like a fish needs a bicycle.
This is not a serious proposal (Score:3)
The three primary sponsors ar all in the Bay Area Caucus, i.e. Silicon Valley. One represents Menlo Park. They are doing this so that when they knock on the doors on the doors of moneybags types in their districts they have a talking point. It's low hanging fruit. If they were in agricultural areas it would be about farming/agribusiness, say in rural California. If it was the South it would be about putting Jesus in the classroom. (BTW, this is one of the next targets of Republicans, the end of church/state separation.)
It's all about how legislation is for sale to the highest bidder. When push comes shove, your vote can be negated by special interests who write big checks.
In the current budget crunch in California this is going nowhere, but it shows how things really work.
Great comment (Score:2)
I thought I was cynical. I'm clearly not cynical enough
Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
All I see here is "cargo cult teaching". CS and even coding is not something people generally need or want or are good at.
Is this still about some way-too-large IT enterprises wanting cheaper coders? That will not work.
They've done this with English... (Score:2)
& BTW, where I am & elsewhere that I've seen, there's no "graduation" from high school; everyone takes a bunch of exams & selective post-secondary institutions set their own pref
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What computer science? (Score:2)
Re:They just want lower wages (Score:5, Insightful)
You think all these kids are going to learn enough computer anything to be employable from the same high schools that aren't teaching large numbers of them how to read or perform basic math?
Don't worry, you're not going to lose your high end tech job to a high school trained student.
Amazon will hire anything with a pulse (Score:3)
Like their warehouses Amazon tech burns through employees. Unlike their warehouses they don't have enough disposable people to get away with that indefinitely.
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Amazon has warehouse blue collar employees who are pure manual labor and technical white collar staff like everyone else. Their technical staff are not high school level dip shits.
I would never take a job there but not because the other staff are dumb. They are not. I wouldn't do it because they have zero concept of work life balance and burn people out very fast. But they are not technically poor.
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Yeah, really, that's a great question I had in the back of my mind when I wrote the above but really didn't know where to go with it so I kept it short.
I have no idea what the goal of this program is. It makes no sense to me. If it's coding then it's dumb because coding requires logic and these kids aren't learning to think clearly in school. If it's basic IT then I guess knowing how to manage their own home computer is useful but not worth being a degree requirement.
If it's supposed to be a job skill th
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Relax. We're still talking about the same dimwits that fail basic math. Just because you add more baggage to the carriage they already can't pull now doesn't make them any more useful.
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Is absolutely no point the flooding the market with that many people when we're already bringing in tons of cheap labor from overseas
There is the point that you failed to elucidate clearly by misusing the subject line. Again. And that point is that every single human will have to deal with computers in some aspect of their lives. Knowing how they work and the theories behind them may actually be useful in getting rid of some of the 'mystic' thinking I have to battle with daily.
Almost none of them will actually become programmers.
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I remember in the late 90's being a computer science major. I did a lot of programing for fun and thought that it would be a good career (it may have been).
I was shocked, though, at how much math was actually involved in computer programing once you got past the basic stuff I was doing. (I didn't even realize how basic the stuf I was doing was until I actually took CS classes post high school.)
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If you put it like this then everything in life is math
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"Try as you may, you just can't get away from mathematics!"
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Math is how we measure the world and compare.
Obligatory XKCD: Fields by purity [xkcd.com]
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their grade level now. What will a CS education do for them?
Teach them that computer science is based upon white supremacy, the patriarchy and colonialism.
You think the above is a joke? Look what University of Michigan School of Education and George Washington University Graduate School of Education and Human Development Deans have to say:
"Math proficiency is white supremacy, proclaims Deborah Lowenberg Ball, a mathematics professor and former dean of the University of Michigan School of Education. In the latest episode of the EdFix Podcast, Ball complains tha
Re: 90% of graduates can't read, write or do Math (Score:2)
The quotes are pretty damn out of context and manipulated.
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The quotes are pretty damn out of context and manipulated.
No, they are what Deans of Education departments at some mainstream universities have said. Apologies for the inconvenient truths.