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Australia Earth

Australia Criticized For Ramping Up Gas Extraction Through '2050 and Beyond' (bbc.com) 132

Slashdot reader sonlas shared this report from the BBC: Australia has announced it will ramp up its extraction and use of gas until "2050 and beyond", despite global calls to phase out fossil fuels. Prime Minister Anthony Albanese's government says the move is needed to shore up domestic energy supply while supporting a transition to net zero... Australia — one of the world's largest exporters of liquefied natural gas — has also said the policy is based on "its commitment to being a reliable trading partner". Released on Thursday, the strategy outlines the government's plans to work with industry and state leaders to increase both the production and exploration of the fossil fuel. The government will also continue to support the expansion of the country's existing gas projects, the largest of which are run by Chevron and Woodside Energy Group in Western Australia...

The policy has sparked fierce backlash from environmental groups and critics — who say it puts the interest of powerful fossil fuel companies before people. "Fossil gas is not a transition fuel. It's one of the main contributors to global warming and has been the largest source of increases of CO2 [emissions] over the last decade," Prof Bill Hare, chief executive of Climate Analytics and author of numerous UN climate change reports told the BBC... Successive Australian governments have touted gas as a key "bridging fuel", arguing that turning it off too soon could have "significant adverse impacts" on Australia's economy and energy needs. But Prof Hare and other scientists have warned that building a net zero policy around gas will "contribute to locking in 2.7-3C global warming, which will have catastrophic consequences".

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Australia Criticized For Ramping Up Gas Extraction Through '2050 and Beyond'

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  • gas = renewables (Score:4, Informative)

    by dicobalt ( 1536225 ) on Sunday May 12, 2024 @08:42PM (#64467711)
    Intermittent renewables like wind and solar depend on it for base load power. Whenever you hear wind or solar you should also be hearing the word gas.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday May 12, 2024 @08:46PM (#64467723)

      none of us have ever heard of batteries and there definitely aren't examples of them working in Australia, so your argument is very persuasive.

      please, explain how because capacity doesn't exist right now it never can. Go on. We've never heard this argument before.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by nonBORG ( 5254161 )
        batteries are currently for short term such as frequency management etc. However for situations of hours or days that does not work.
        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          Batteries are used over periods of hours already, to smooth output of solar and wind. Obviously if you are looking for a whole-country UPS then that's a different matter, but fortunately there is no need for such things.

      • I'm certain everyone has heard of batteries. I just don't think anyone has found a renewable energy producer willing to pay for one. Just like the Little Red Hen [wikipedia.org], everyone is willing to wait for someone else to do the work. But they want first dibs on the benefits once they are available.

        If wind and solar had to install storage capacity to meet contractual delivery obligations just like every other producer, we'd see a lot less claims of their economic viability.

  • Just because much of the EU has planned to become an energy-short third world nation, does not mean the rest of the nations have to. Most will engage in common sense and make sure citizens have enough power... and in Australia power literally means life because of the need for reliable AC.

    And since Australia only emits around 1% of global CO2 emissions [ourworldindata.org], does it really matter if they go up a little? What Australia does is literally nothing compared to choice China and India make.

    • by khchung ( 462899 ) on Sunday May 12, 2024 @09:10PM (#64467761) Journal

      And since Australia only emits around 1% of global CO2 emissions [ourworldindata.org], does it really matter if they go up a little? What Australia does is literally nothing compared to choice China and India make.

      Ok, now apply the same logic to every third world country, except China and India. Now what do you get? About half of the world's population is ok continue to spew out as much CO2 as up to what Australians are happily doing, then the world is doomed and it no longer matters what China or India do anymore (which, of course, then China and India will use to say to justify their CO2 emissions).

      When rich first world nations, emitting 3-10x more CO2 per person above average, refused to suffer any pain to cut their emission, why the fxxk should poor third world nations do anything, suffer any pain, to do so?

      • Australia desires to be a "reliable trading partner" so they will export more LNG to China, India, and others. Those countries will use the gas and create emissions. Instead of gas, what should China and India use to help their people rise toward Western affluence? It might be colonialist to hold back their economic development.
      • by geekmux ( 1040042 ) on Sunday May 12, 2024 @10:15PM (#64467841)

        This isn’t about choosing pain and suffering. Or even choosing pollution.

        It’s about choosing a viable fucking solution that meets the need. All needs. And so far, not even first world countries have an answer. Just sales pitches running into reality.

        • by khchung ( 462899 )

          This isn’t about choosing pain and suffering. Or even choosing pollution.

          It’s about choosing a viable fucking solution that meets the need. All needs. And so far, not even first world countries have an answer. Just sales pitches running into reality.

          The answer is assloads of renewables on power supplying side, which means more wind turbines, more solar panels, and more nuclear power plants, and then less fossil fuels on the consumer side, which means literally thousands of EVs.

          And what do first world countries do? Raise tariffs on EVs and solar panels, and sometimes outright banning their imports.

          No, the first world countries knew the answer all along, they just don't like the answer because it is not one that let them live in more luxury.

          • by Pieroxy ( 222434 )

            This isn’t about choosing pain and suffering. Or even choosing pollution.

            It’s about choosing a viable fucking solution that meets the need. All needs. And so far, not even first world countries have an answer. Just sales pitches running into reality.

            The answer is assloads of renewables on power supplying side, ...

            I think All Needs include the earth. Climate change is but one of the problems the earth is facing due to our number and way of life. The sixth mass extinction is well underway and assloads of renewables will worsen it.

            • by khchung ( 462899 )

              I think All Needs include the earth. Climate change is but one of the problems the earth is facing due to our number and way of life. The sixth mass extinction is well underway and assloads of renewables will worsen it.

              "The Earth" has no need, the Earth will be eventually swallowed by the Sun, and along with it all species that did not fly off the planet. Right now, the only beings that have a chance to leave Earth before that is homo sapiens, while it is nice for humans to preserve as many other species as possible along the way, it is not a must.

              Claiming that Earth have some "needs" that is different from human needs is just a fake target to detract from what we, humans, as a whole needs to do. We need to survive and

              • I think All Needs include the earth. Climate change is but one of the problems the earth is facing due to our number and way of life. The sixth mass extinction is well underway and assloads of renewables will worsen it.

                "The Earth" has no need, the Earth will be eventually swallowed by the Sun, and along with it all species that did not fly off the planet. Right now, the only beings that have a chance to leave Earth before that is homo sapiens, while it is nice for humans to preserve as many other species as possible along the way, it is not a must.

                Claiming that Earth have some "needs" that is different from human needs is just a fake target to detract from what we, humans, as a whole needs to do. We need to survive and develop and build colonies off-planet so we will not get swallowed by the Sun. If some species cannot survive the process, that's too bad. Don't forget that if humans fail, all surviving species will very likely just die when the Sun goes nova anyway.

                Well said! These folks who claim everyone is short sighted are in fact the short sighted ones. We should be using our resources to find a way to colonize other planets/systems otherwise we are domed to extinction no matter how many EVs we build. I guess their parents never told them the one about having all your eggs in one basket.

          • This isn’t about choosing pain and suffering. Or even choosing pollution.

            It’s about choosing a viable fucking solution that meets the need. All needs. And so far, not even first world countries have an answer. Just sales pitches running into reality.

            The answer is assloads of renewables on power supplying side, which means more wind turbines, more solar panels, and more nuclear power plants, and then less fossil fuels on the consumer side, which means literally thousands of EVs.

            If anyone were questioning the sales tactics of Green marketing, you would be the last one they question, cheerleader.

        • by MrNaz ( 730548 )

          What about the need for a planet capable of sustaining human life?

      • except Australia isn't spewing out ever increasing amounts, it has one of the highest adoption rates of solar in the world as well as Hydro. However the reality is you still need something for the baseload as renewables can't currently cope on their own. Australia IS however phasing out coal generation.
        • "baseload" is not a separate kind of electricity, it is just a concept which made sense in the context of the generation technology of the time. Total load is typically highly variable. In the past we had generators (typically coal fired steam turbine) which were expensive to build but cheap to run, slow to ramp up and slow to ramp down, We also had generators (typically gas turbine) which were expensive to run but quick to ramp up and quick to ramp down. It made sense to use maximize the use of the cheap t

      • And since Australia only emits around 1% of global CO2 emissions [ourworldindata.org], does it really matter if they go up a little? What Australia does is literally nothing compared to choice China and India make.

        Ok, now apply the same logic to every third world country, except China and India. Now what do you get? About half of the world's population is ok continue to spew out as much CO2 as up to what Australians are happily doing, then the world is doomed and it no longer matters what China or India do anymore (which, of course, then China and India will use to say to justify their CO2 emissions).

        When rich first world nations, emitting 3-10x more CO2 per person above average, refused to suffer any pain to cut th

    • by JBMcB ( 73720 ) on Sunday May 12, 2024 @09:21PM (#64467779)

      And since Australia only emits around 1% of global CO2 emissions [ourworldindata.org], does it really matter if they go up a little?

      If they are increasing natural gas usage to replace coal fired power plants, their CO2 emissions will go down.

      • by Admiral Krunch ( 6177530 ) on Sunday May 12, 2024 @09:49PM (#64467799)

        If they are increasing natural gas usage to replace coal fired power plants, their CO2 emissions will go down.

        There's always one killjoy stepping in with facts to try and stop everyone's perfectly good hysterical ranting.

        • There's always one killjoy stepping in with facts to try and stop everyone's perfectly good hysterical ranting.

          I think the GP used the word "If" facetiousl. If not, they maybe should have given that this is Australia we're talking about, and their announcements to approve new gas extraction comes in the same year as announcements to approve new coal mines too.

          Australia has shown one thing very clearly in the past 2 decades: Having lots of gas does not mean you build gas power plants, especially when you sell a significant portion of capacity to China in one of the largest trade deals on the planet.

      • As a Canadian (1.67% of global emissions) I've tried to make this point before. People just can't get past "per capita", even though the climate does not give a flying fuck how many people it took to emit the quantity. Which makes it an emotional argument... not a logical one.

        • As a Canadian (1.67% of global emissions) I've tried to make this point before. People just can't get past "per capita", even though the climate does not give a flying fuck how many people it took to emit the quantity. Which makes it an emotional argument... not a logical one.

          Canada's carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuel combustion and industrial processes totaled 548 million metric tons (MtCO) in 2022 @ 14.2tons for each Canadian.

          What happens when everyone has your attitude?

          So as long as me and a few mates only emit say 400 million metric tons between the 4 of us it's ok? There's only 4 of us and we're cleaner than Canada.

          I mean sure "per capita" pfft we're extremely dirty and over 7 million times worse than you. But there's only 4 of us. Why should we cut back when Ca

          • by dwywit ( 1109409 )

            The planet doesn't care about "per capita". The planet cares about totals.

            "Per capita" is a generally useful metric used to bring complex statistics and circumstances down to the level where the average consumer can at least try to wrap their heads around the issues at hand.

            It's not useful at all when actually dealing with emissions.

            • by PPH ( 736903 )

              The planet doesn't care about "per capita". The planet cares about totals.

              So we'll just push emmissions responsibilities out to each of the 50 states. And drop our totals way down in the charts.

              Except for California. Who will just stick out like the pariah that they are.

          • You're making the emotional argument again.. "What if everybody thought that way?" Well, what iif? Near as I can tell, most everybody does, Regardless, Canada's total CO2 output is small. Output by unit of land mass is absolutely tiny. You have to reach for per capita to find outrage, even though it's not the thing that matters. At all. Except... as an appeal to emotion.

            Your four man 400 million ton emitter is a form of reduction ad absurdum. Stop that.

            Canada cannot move the needle globally. If they could

            • You're making the emotional argument again..

              I'm just showing you the absurdity of your position.

              Canada cannot move the needle globally.

              No individual can. No collection of people the size of Canada can. Did you have a point?
              39 million Canadians will have more impact than 39 million of any other countries people though. No other country with people as polluting as Canadians even have that many people.

              If you're not going to get a Canadian in the top 2% of emitters in the world to do anything. Why would you expect one of the 98% of people who are already less polluting do anything?

              If they could cut their output by half, which they can't, it wouldn't change much of anything.

              If you h

              • "the absurdity of your position" - that's exactly what reductio ad absurdum is. Extend the argument until it's absurd and then pretend you're refuting the original, and not the absurdity. It's a fallacy for a reason.

                But I'll reverse the discussion. If you're all that concerned about Canada's per capita emissions as "heavy polluters", then I have the perfect answer. Let's swell the Canadian population by enough people to bring down our per capita emissions to a more acceptable level, while not affecting actu

                • Except yours is the absurd position and I just refuted your original position in my previous post.
                  You've nothing to say about the facts mentioned there, but just distract with more silly games and absurdities.
                  What makes you think the extra Canadians will be producing zero CO2? It's just as absurd as everything else you've been saying.

                  As an average, Canadians are in the top 2% of polluters. It's just a fact. Adding more average Canadians won't change that.

                  This is the bit where you foolishly claim The ec

              • "You're the one pleading to emotions claiming it's too hard for Canadians to do anything because they're a small country"

                Sigh... I'm so very, very tired of illiteracy on the internet. Sadly it's not going anywhere.

                I did not claim Canadians can't do anything, and I challenge you to say I did. I said Canadian's can't do enough for it to matter on the global level. And I claimed that Canada can't halve it's CO2 output.

                • You're technically right you didn't claim that. Here's the correction then.
                  "You're the one pleading to emotions claiming it's too hard for Canadians to do anything meaningful because they're a small country"

                  You claimed Canadians can't do enough to matter. And I showed that they can do more than the same number of people in any other country on average.
                  Which you had no counterargument for.
                  Even though you've replied to it twice now.

                  A Canadian emits 3x the worlds average ~15 vs 5. So they're 3x as capa

                  • You know, you declaring I have no counterargument doesn't make it so. You're tripling down on the per capita argument and demand I follow you into the muck. My point is that the per capita argument doesn't hold water, and makes no sense to focus on if you want to actually solve the problem rather than point at individuals and bitch about them.

                    The fact that you think triple the per capita emissions means 3 times more capable" of cutting tells me everything I need to know to eject. Besides mixing math with in

                    • So your "counter argument" to per capita being relevant is to just claim it isn't?

                      You can't just wish away the fact that A Canadian person is more polluting than most people. You've given some reason why that may be the case (distance) but done nothing to explain why other people should cut but not you.

                      Your initial argument was the there are only 40 million, not enough to make a difference. When 40 million of anybody else would make even less of a difference.

                      You keep claiming it's some kind of emotional

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by nonBORG ( 5254161 )
      100% agreed, if they knock themselves out and reduce their emissions it makes basically no difference. Another important factor is the price of power. Cheap gas is cheap electricity, and it supplies industry. If the price goes up the industry shuts down and moves to China along with the jobs. Power prices are on the rise and a significant contributor is the push to green electricity. However when it comes to the way that electricity is priced on the wholesale market in places I have worked with (not Austral
    • Germany made itself highly dependent on Russia because those two were engaging in Nazi fetish play. Then Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin felt it would be even more kinky, which gave Germany the hots really bad until their neighbors shamed them for doing that. Now they're trying to pretend that they knew that building those pipelines was a bad idea all along, but they still have the hots for Russia.

      • by sd4f ( 1891894 )
        I think the most annoying thing is, the EU and especially Germany now behave like as if they always knew Putin was a bad egg, and never did they ever try to make deals with him and bring him into the European fold (coughs in wandel durch handel. But with that said, historical revisionism is a bit of a necessity in a lot of Europe.
    • by noodler ( 724788 )

      And since Australia only emits around 1% of global CO2 emissions ...

      If true then that's still 3x more than an average person on earth...

    • by chefren ( 17219 )

      And since Australia only emits around 1% of global CO2 emissions [ourworldindata.org], does it really matter if they go up a little? What Australia does is literally nothing compared to choice China and India make.

      This logic allows everyone to avoid cutting any emissions. Just change this argument to state/province level for China, the US and India and everyone can argue that their emissions are so small it doesn't matter anyway. China used to argue for ages that since have so much less emissions per capita than then west, they are not obligated to do anything until the west does. It's all just a variation of wanting someone else to fix the problem for you, when it's clearly everybody's problem.

    • Your moderation of your comment is ridiculous.

      Just cleaning up the awful air and water pollution of India and China would _significantly_ cut the world's pollution, period. I mean, look at how much air pollution India and China now emit and the polluted rivers of both countries, especially plastics.

  • The real reason the Labor party opposes nuclear is because they are pro gas. That's the real motivation in keeping the nuclear ban active in Australia. They want gas to be a large part of their grid.
    • by Macfox ( 50100 )

      I'm not so sure.... LNP pushing nuclear largely at the bequest of fossil fuel industry, knowing it will take decades and delay any transition away from FF.
      ALP support is due to captured by the Western Australia fossil fuel industry. Like the state government they've realised they can only retain government with support from the powerful FF industry. ALP have learnt their lesson with the MRRT, where the PM was rolled by a well resourced campaign by the miners.

      The industry contributes little to WA or Australi

  • Start with yourselves. The suggestion that we should stop the use of fossil fuels and natural gas would lead to Mass death and starvation. These silly fools are no different than the Aztecs sacrificing children on top of pyramids thinking they can change the weather in the future.
  • The English majors-turned-climate-activists talk as if replacement sources and stores of energy are readily available.

    They are not.

    Get back to me when they are. I might want to buy one.

  • by MtViewGuy ( 197597 ) on Sunday May 12, 2024 @10:46PM (#64467877)

    For a couple of reasons:

    1. We now know that natural gas is a lot more common than people think. Thanks to new gas field discoveries and vastly improved extraction techniques in the last 40 years, the available natural gas supply has literally gone through the roof. No wonder why coal-fired power plants are being phased out in favor of CNG-fueled power plants.

    2. Unlike coal, cleaning up natural gas emissions is vastly cheaper. We don't need to deal with particulates, heavy metals and (for the most part) oxides of sulfur and nitrogen, and pollution controls for natural gas don't need expensive means to remove particulates, heavy metals and sulfur compounds from the exhaust.

  • https://www.theguardian.com/bu... [theguardian.com]

    While Australia is looking to expand their natural gas supplies by 2050 we see the UK looking to expand their nuclear power capacity by 2050. To be fair, I have suspicions that UK is also looking to drill for more natural gas, no need to put all the eggs in one basket.

    Australia is not lacking in uranium reserves so it's not like they'd be dependent on other nations for energy if they turn to nuclear fission for energy. With tensions rising in the region because of Chinese

    • by Macfox ( 50100 )

      You are conflating a lot of issues. The vast majority of the this new gas development is for export. It has nothing to do with Australia power needs. ALP are just running scared of the FF industry.

      Nuclear boat sailed years ago. By the time we established a nuclear industry, renewables will reach +90% with dispatchable gas filling the rest.

      Bringing in the subs is just ridiculous. The nuclear submarine program is simply the acquisition of three to five Virginia class submarines in the 2030s. The promised AUKU

  • The Aussie screed claiming that small modular reactors shouldn't be tried because be assured they wouldn't work anyway. I believe that as much as I believe any other political stand from coal producers.

    Fortunately China is not only plowing ahead with modular reactor research with all possible speed, but with use of molten salt as a coolant as well.

    • by Tailhook ( 98486 )

      but with use of molten salt as a coolant as well

      But why? They already have a 200 MW gas cooled design in commercial operation [world-nuclear-news.org] now. What great advantage does molten salt deliver over this?

      Molten salt requires a complex chemical processing system for continuous processing of high temperature, highly radioactive fluid. This HTR-PM that China has built involves handling high temperature, highly radioactive solid "pebbles." I don't know which is worse. And neither do you. So I fail to see any great advantage for either.

      • But why? They already have a 200 MW gas cooled design in commercial operation [world-nuclear-news.org] now. What great advantage does molten salt deliver over this?

        You're confusing two different technologies. The biggest advantage of molten as an internal reactor coolant instead of water is that it allows a much higher operating temperature. This opens up a greater variety of heat sinks, the environmental feature into which waste heat from the reactor is dumped. The existing water-cooled designs are limited to about 600F output temperature, and to achieve that teh water has to be put under high pressure. The second advantage of molten salt is that its high melting poi

  • and not slaves of Klaus Schwab
  • Looking like they take it in the ass from the Chinese commies, no offense.
    • by Tailhook ( 98486 )

      But I thought the Chinese are the world bestest at green everything way ahead of the US and everything!

      How dare you accuse China of not being the greenest ever!

  • ...don't write their own hymns anymore; the sing from the corporations' hymn sheets. So now Australians know they have to do more than vote & pressure politicians, they also have to pressure corporations & their shareholders. What a great way to run a democracy!
  • They are prioritising their own interest, their own energy security. This is what a sensible, realistic and responsible governments do. I'd do exactly the same.

    • by Macfox ( 50100 )

      Except this expansion is for export. We already have more than enough. We export 80% of our gas. This expansion does nothing to enhance the security of our energy.

      The main issue is Australia has no domestic gas reservation policy. Thus we pay global prices. https://www.accc.gov.au/media-... [accc.gov.au] When domestic supplies get tight, we have been known to re-import our own gas from Korea at a premium. The one good thing is, it has priced out gas as a major power supply option in favour of renewables. It's will now be

      • The main issue is Australia has no domestic gas reservation policy. Thus we pay global prices.

        Not doing that constitutes the bulk of what articles talk about as "subsidies to the oil and gas industry." To me that term is a bit misleading, but I do think selling gas below market value crosses line into promoting and extending the use of fossil fuel.

        Natural gas if done right (avoiding leaks in the extraction and distribution) is a lot better than coal, so the key question is whether this natural gas is

        • by Macfox ( 50100 )

          The bottom line there is no benefit for this increase. Australia practically gives it's resources away for nothing and much of the tax they pay is offset against developments costs and the bulk of the profits go offshore.

          If Australia cease gas exportation, if would have little material impact to the local economy, which begs the question why this government has back flipped, adding to the global warming problem.

          • That's odd. I live in an oil-producing state in the US and it's a huge source of revenue for the state. (So much that I wonder how the state will provide services when production declines - although I consider it environmentally necessary).
  • > despite global calls to phase out fossil fuels

    TFA conveniently fails to report who are making these calls. The entire world isn't going to drop their standards of life to please a very loud and small elitist crowd. The media are trying to replace democracy (the majority of the public decides) with something else (the loudest and most obnoxious get to decide)

  • Um, gas extraction leads to increased levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. I'll grant you that. But, I'd like to remind you that methane is a stronger GW gas. And decomposing human corpses launch just a bloody lot of methane into the atmosphere. Perhaps it would be wiser to keep the humans alive as well as keep energy research alive. And for the bloody damn hell of it how about figuring out how to cope with the consequences you fear?

    {o.o}

  • ranting about AGW, (it's real - deal with it), and fossil fuels - I love to enumerate the number of kids they have.

    Because it's almost ALWAYS a case of "No, see, I'm excluded because I'm special".

    No. Fossil fuels are *not* the underlying problem. The sheer excess of humanity is the problem and, here's the kicker, we will do NOTHING about our breeding habits. Even if it kills us

    • Having food shortages solves the problem eventually. I don't get why people are so hyper focused on population being the cause AND the solution to climate change.

      It's probably a good idea to stop taking captured carbon from the ground and adding it to the system. If we stop adding more carbon to the system, we will eventually reach an equilibrium of biomass versus atmospheric carbon dioxide. While we may no like what that equilibrium is, we can manage it (up to a point), and make long-term plans based on wh

  • Looking for American to Australian translation for:

    Smooth move, Ex-Lax!

C makes it easy for you to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes that harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg. -- Bjarne Stroustrup

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