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Earth Science

Bay Area City Orders Scientists To Stop Controversial Cloud Brightening Experiment (sfgate.com) 93

Posted by BeauHD from the hold-up dept.
Last month, researchers from the University of Washington started conducting an experiment on a decommissioned naval ship in Alameda to test if spraying salt water into the air could brighten clouds and cool the planet. However, their project was forced to stop this month after the city got word of what was going on. SFGate reports: According to a city press release, scientists were ordered to halt the experiment because it violated Alameda's lease with the USS Hornet, the aircraft carrier from which researchers were spraying saltwater into the air using "a machine resembling a snowmaker." The news was first reported by the Alameda Post. "City staff are working with a team of biological and hazardous materials consultants to independently evaluate the health and environmental safety of this particular experiment," the press release states. Specifically, chemicals present in the experiment's aerosol spray are being evaluated to study whether or not they pose any threats to humans, animals or the environment. So far, there isn't any evidence that they do, the city stated.

The prospect of a city-conducted review was not unexpected, the University of Washington said in a statement shared with SFGATE. "In fact, the CAARE (Coastal Aerosol Research and Engagement) facility is designed to help regulators, community members and others engage with the research closely, and we consider the current interactions with the city to be an integral part of that process," the statement reads. "We are happy to support their review and it has been a highly constructive process so far." The marine cloud brightening (MCB) technique involves spraying fine particles of sea salt into the atmosphere from ships or specialized machines. These sea salt particles are chosen because they are a natural source of cloud-forming aerosols and can increase the number of cloud droplets, making the clouds more reflective. The particles sprayed are extremely small, about 1/1000th the width of a human hair, ensuring they remain suspended in the air and interact with cloud droplets effectively.

By reflecting more sunlight, these brightened clouds can reduce the amount of solar energy reaching the Earth's surface, leading to localized cooling. If implemented on a large scale, this cooling effect could potentially offset some of the warming caused by greenhouse gases.

You can learn more about the experiment here.
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Bay Area City Orders Scientists To Stop Controversial Cloud Brightening Experiment More

Bay Area City Orders Scientists To Stop Controversial Cloud Brightening Experiment

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  • Salt = chemical? (Score:3)

    by GrahamJ ( 241784 ) on Wednesday May 15, 2024 @09:23PM (#64475775)

    "chemicals present in the experiment's aerosol spray are being evaluated to study whether or not they pose any threats to humans, animals or the environment."

    I wouldn't think salt would be classified as a chemical.

    • Re:Salt = chemical? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Baron_Yam ( 643147 ) on Wednesday May 15, 2024 @09:40PM (#64475797)

      Yep, salt's a chemical. A substance related to chemistry. I think the term is a bit too broad to be useful scientifically. And politically a chemical is whatever someone has a NIMBY fit over.

      Given that sea spray often blows well inland, somehow I doubt having a mist of it reach further is going to end the world, but sure, why not review it first.

      • Re:Salt = chemical? (Score:5, Funny)

        by PPH ( 736903 ) on Wednesday May 15, 2024 @10:01PM (#64475831)

        Nothing but the finest organic salt for our residents.

        And it had better be gluten free as well.

        • Re:Salt = chemical? (Score:4, Informative)

          by sg_oneill ( 159032 ) on Wednesday May 15, 2024 @10:23PM (#64475865)

          Hah. I remember going into a supermarket once and noticing the "organic salt" for sale, and commenting to the attendant that the organic salt was probably the only thing in the store that wasnt organic, at least if its in its natural state.

          She seemed very confused by that. NaCl contains no carbons.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by PPH ( 736903 )

            But it's in the same aisle as the organic water!

          • AFAIK, the word "organic" on food isn't particularly well regulated in the USA. When it says "organic", that doesn't necessarily mean that everything is actually free from artificial additives. It's same with Nestle's "Rain Forrest Alliance" nonsense. There's nothing fair trade about it. If anything, it's a warning of the kinds of hyper-exploitation that Nestle is famous for.

          • Hah. I remember going into a supermarket once and noticing the "organic salt" for sale, and commenting to the attendant that the organic salt was probably the only thing in the store that wasnt organic, at least if its in its natural state.

            She seemed very confused by that. NaCl contains no carbons.

            You bring up an interesting thing. People who have no concept of chemistry are coming up with so called solutions that involve altering the atmospheric chemistry of earth for thousands of years without having any understanding of what they are proposing.

            They are worried about only using "organic" salt without one iota of understanding that salt is a chemical.

            The "Let's inject aerosols" people aren't a whole lot brighter. When you point out the worldwide destruction this would entail, and the thousand o

            • People who have no concept of chemistry are coming up with so called solutions

              If they're not a part of the solution then they must be a part of the precipitate.

              • People who have no concept of chemistry are coming up with so called solutions

                If they're not a part of the solution then they must be a part of the precipitate.

                Cymbal crash! 8^)

          • I'd avoid the organic salt, unless it is also free-range.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by quenda ( 644621 )

          Salt my well be harmless, but I read that the solvent/propellant they are using is the notorious Dihydrogen Monoxide! [dhmo.org]

          • Salt my well be harmless, but I read that the solvent/propellant they are using is the notorious Dihydrogen Monoxide! [dhmo.org]

            But atmospheric salt and it's products aren't harmless.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by quenda ( 644621 )

              Products? Like rust?

              • Products? Like rust?

                Exactly.

                And the delivery system - dihydrogen monoxide will bring it all to us. 8^) And what in the actual hell were all of these people doing during chemistry class in high school?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by kiviQr ( 3443687 )
          Question is was it Vegan?
      • Apparently we can only pump organic chemicals into the atmosphere. Like the safe, natural goodness of coal ash.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by dhaen ( 892570 )
          Well that is TRUELY organic.

        • Apparently we can only pump organic chemicals into the atmosphere. Like the safe, natural goodness of coal ash.

          The cool part is if we decide that all of the problems of acidifying the atmosphere are a good thing, the future of no emission control, burn the poorest quality coal and petroleum products will start. Pumping too much CO2 into the atmosphere? Fea rnot, we'll just Use more high sulfur coal, and let 'er rip. Eliminate those baghouses and scrubbers and make burning high sulfur oil and coal mandatory. We're savin' the earth!

      • Yep, salt's a chemical. A substance related to chemistry. I think the term is a bit too broad to be useful scientifically. And politically a chemical is whatever someone has a NIMBY fit over.

        Given that sea spray often blows well inland, somehow I doubt having a mist of it reach further is going to end the world, but sure, why not review it first.

        Sodium Chloride is definitely a salt. Now, as for the nimby thing, there is a chemical reaction going on at places where this aerosol injection takes place. Like the seashore. The hydrochloric acid aerosol production can and does destroy objects it lands on.

        So let's decide that we really really want to inject sodium chloride into the atmosphere on a global scale in order to combat AGW.

        First off, it will work after a fashion. Aerosol injection does indeed serve as a sort of anti-greenhouse gas.

        One o

        • > the aerosol injection does not remove Carbon Dioxide or methane, it masks it.

          Yep. Normally I bang on about that for a while when the topic comes up. I actually do not support albedo modification for that reason... The only thing that we can currently have confidence in is green energy instead of hydrocarbons, and making sure we have excess power for sequestration once we've stopped burning oil and gas.

          • > the aerosol injection does not remove Carbon Dioxide or methane, it masks it.

            Yep. Normally I bang on about that for a while when the topic comes up. I actually do not support albedo modification for that reason... The only thing that we can currently have confidence in is green energy instead of hydrocarbons, and making sure we have excess power for sequestration once we've stopped burning oil and gas.

            Correct. It isn't an exciting prospect, but our best bet now is to go to wind and solar, battery technology, and use the last bit of petrochemicals for not easily replaceable energy sources like what airplanes need.

            Maybe - just maybe, a few nuc plants during the switchover, if we can eliminate the human problem in design or operation. Just don't tell anyone I wrote that. 8^)

      • Yep, salt's a chemical. A substance related to chemistry. I think the term is a bit too broad to be useful scientifically. And politically a chemical is whatever someone has a NIMBY fit over.

        Given that sea spray often blows well inland, somehow I doubt having a mist of it reach further is going to end the world, but sure, why not review it first.

        I was originally thinking about how silly the authorities were about "investigating" salty mist, but then you remind me about natural sea spray blowing inland.

        Natural sea spray is taken into account in areas near the beaches for gardening, agriculture and construction. Sudden increases in salt mist can cause damages to plants and animals.So I guess that might be a reason why authorities stepped in.

        The reported story seems to blow it out of proportions, though.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by GrahamJ ( 241784 )

        hehe well yes but notice I said "classified as" a chemical, as in by the regulatory body in question. While any molecule can be called a chemical surely only a subset of those would fall into that category in the context of regulation.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by jonadab ( 583620 )
        I don't think this is so much "Don't do that, bad things will happen" as "Don't use our facilities to do that, it makes our insurance company's lawyer nervous." It doesn't take very much to make an insurance company's lawyer nervous. Pretty much using any facility for any purpose that the facility wasn't specifically *intended* to be used for, is going to be a problem in this kind of context. If you have a gym, you can play basketball in it, and your insurance company will probably be cool with that; but

    • I've got some news [youtu.be] for you...

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by khchung ( 462899 )

      Since we learned in Chemistry class that everything is made up of elements in the Periodic Table, yes, practically everything on Earth is a "chemical", including all "natural" or "organic" stuff, the air you breathe and the water you drink.

      The few exceptions would be free electrons the old CRT TVs or from beta decay, and various sub-atomic particles from solar winds found in aurora (Muons, etc). Even alpha particles or a free proton is arguably just Helium or Hydrogen without electron (i.e. He++ / H+) and

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by quenda ( 644621 )

        "chemical" normally is shorthand for "chemical compound", which is composed of many identical molecules etc.
        So water, oxygen, iron, sugar and salt are chemicals, but milk, flour, bronze or air are made of multiple chemicals.

      • But of course, for Americans which many never attended any Chemistry class, "chemicals" is anything your politicians wanted you to be afraid of or angry at, so they can manipulate you to be against it.

        I know, those stupid fucking 'Murricans, who the world would be much better off if we didn't exist. I mean, every subject in here has you or some or another anti-Americans blaming them for it.

        The rest of the world should step up and show us how in your countries, you have solved the problems of manipulative politicians.

        Let's start with your country. tovaritch.

    • What happens when that salt comes down in the rain in areas that donâ(TM)t normally get much salt? Sounds ecologically bad.

      • What happens when that salt comes down in the rain in areas that donâ(TM)t normally get much salt? Sounds ecologically bad.

        Yes, it will be very bad. Part of this whole thing is generating the aerosols that would keep the average temperatures down.

        The aerosols drop out of the atmosphere with the water cycle, the rain becoming acidic. Rain is normally a bit acidic with carbonic acid. But the new acids will be hydrochloric acid (with NACL) or Sulfuric acid (with petrochemical or coal sulfur containing fuels)

        So we're looking at altering the atmosphere globally for a long time, killing water lifeforms, both on land and the ocea

    • Re:Salt = chemical? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Thursday May 16, 2024 @02:59AM (#64476101)

      I wouldn't think salt would be classified as a chemical.

      What if we call it Sodium Chloride, would that be classified as a chemical?

      Also no one has given the final chemical composition. The only thing we know is it's an aerosol made from sea salt. There could be additives, who knows. We don't have the same information as the people investigating this.

      • I wouldn't think salt would be classified as a chemical.

        What if we call it Sodium Chloride, would that be classified as a chemical?

        Also no one has given the final chemical composition. The only thing we know is it's an aerosol made from sea salt. There could be additives, who knows. We don't have the same information as the people investigating this.

        Even just the aerosols created are a little scary. Salt is pretty tough on things. And it isn't the Sodium Chloride itself. It is what it turns into that is quite harmful.

        The shore environment often has Sodium and potassium chloride sprayed into the local environment - the amount depending on the wave action. Maintenance in these areas is ongoing. Skip a year, and you could get in trouble. Ships are constantly being repainted. They look derelict in a few years if you don't.

        When I return from vacation,

        • When I return from vacation, I get my car detailed and get the undercarriage really cleaned up.

          Because the ocean already generates aerosols, this isn't an issue since they are doing it out in the ocean already. Now if they were pumping seawater into the city centre and spraying it into the air you'd have an outright disaster on your hands.

          And people are proposing this on a worldwide scale. What could go wrong.

          Worldwide scale for geoengineering does not mean anywhere people live. Quite the opposite. 71% of the world is not only uninhabited but actively salty already. We have plenty of evidence that stuff that happens out in the oceans has a global impact on climate (see s

          • When I return from vacation, I get my car detailed and get the undercarriage really cleaned up.

            Because the ocean already generates aerosols, this isn't an issue since they are doing it out in the ocean already. Now if they were pumping seawater into the city centre and spraying it into the air you'd have an outright disaster on your hands.

            The issue isn't where you pump and spray the saltwater. It is where the now acidified water comes back to earth, when the water cycle does its work. We can make estimates based on the prevailing winds, but the wind changes direction at times.

            Worldwide scale for geoengineering does not mean anywhere people live. Quite the opposite. 71% of the world is not only uninhabited but actively salty already.

            Once again, while salting the earth isn't a good thing - the big problem is not from salt. No doubt there will be sodium and potassium chloride that didn't get aerosolized landing locally, but that isn't the big problem.

            We have plenty of evidence that stuff that happens out in the oceans has a global impact on climate (see stories run about the changes in environment due to changes in particulates from the shipping industry for example).

            Of course, that evidence is what has the scientifically illiterate looking at aerosol injection as the silver bullet to immediately fix global warming, and ecologically perfect - I mean the oceans are full of salt, so what could go wrong. The problem is easily fixed. Or maybe not.

            That humans aren't living in certain areas doesn't mean that they are lifeless. And as I noted before, the problem isn't where the salt and water is aerosolized, it is where it gets dumped as acidic rain. Dump it over the ocean, and it will start by killing shellfish and work it's way up the food chain. If it lands on land, well, DDG acid rain and just look at the pictures.

            So what is your uninhabited area power source. Pumping seawater to heights where the sodium chloride is aerosolized is going to take significant power. And while we are at it - tell us where the water is perfectly safe to be pumped, and perfectly safe to land when the water cycle brings it back to earth. Should be simple - an uninhabited area where the prevailing winds take the savior salt to an equally perfect area. Seems a person could easily find the place where the harmless salt injection will do its work without any problems.

            Funny how some years ago, Acid rain was seen as a terrible thing, destroying buildings and forests, killing fish, and harming animals and people's pulmonary systems. And now, it is rehabilitated, and will save the earth.

            Maybe we could try nucing volcanoes while we are at it.

    • It was the chemical known as sodium chloride they were spraying. It is known to be caustic and cause health issues such as hypervolemia, electrolyte disturbances, circulatory failure, pulmonary embolism, and augmented hypertension.

    • You've gotten a lot of snarky responses, but let me add: the ocean is where all of our garbage goes. It's not just salt.
    • They used to salt the earth of defeated enemies. I can't possibly see what would go wrong with more salt.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by jonadab ( 583620 )
      > I wouldn't think salt would be classified as a chemical.

      Dude, NaCl is one of the top five most famous and widely known chemical formulae among laypersons. *Gradeschool* children memorize it.

    • I wouldn't think salt would be classified as a chemical.

      Technically, salts are a "chemical compound formed by ionic bonds between cations and anions" (see: https://sciencenotes.org/what-... [sciencenotes.org]).
      NaCl is the most well-known salt (commonly known as table salt), but there are tons of salts, many of which you would not want to eat.

  • There are indeed people spraying substances into the sky.

  • This is why (Score:3)

    by fjo3 ( 1399739 ) on Wednesday May 15, 2024 @09:49PM (#64475809)
    we can't have nice things.

  • Humanity is going to kill itself (Score:3)

    by locater16 ( 2326718 ) on Wednesday May 15, 2024 @10:00PM (#64475825)
    And we will deserve it.

  • Next time just spray the salt from the air using airplanes and then deny it no need to ask morons for their opinions. Why seek approval from evil dummies? Fuck 'em. Do you ask a plumber whether you should get brain surgery? We need to stop global warming, and also do science.

    • Next time just spray the salt from the air using airplanes and then deny it no need to ask morons for their opinions. Why seek approval from evil dummies? Fuck 'em. Do you ask a plumber whether you should get brain surgery? We need to stop global warming, and also do science.

      You might have strong opinions, but tell us - how much salt and how many airplanes are needed? Hint - the amount of aerosol injection needed will take thousands of years - and will be the largest project ever undertaken by humanity, and will need to take place globally, by most countries with ocean access.

      The concept of loading up the largest cargo airplanes and dumping salt out of them? well, that's kind of a non starter anyway. That salt will simply fall, not aerosolize into the hydrochloric acid carri

  • City Inspectors (Score:5, Funny)

    by cstacy ( 534252 ) on Wednesday May 15, 2024 @10:05PM (#64475835)

    These are the same jerks that demanded that the ecto-containment sysem in the basement of that firehouse be shut off, and we know how that went!
    Meanwhile, back in the UK where the criminal elements are scooting away on e-bikes.....

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by mjwx ( 966435 )

      These are the same jerks that demanded that the ecto-containment sysem in the basement of that firehouse be shut off, and we know how that went!
      Meanwhile, back in the UK where the criminal elements are scooting away on e-bikes.....

      Are you saying the C-level execs of the water companies and most of the Tory party are getting away on e-bikes?

  • Yeah spraying salt into the atmosphere above populated cities. What could possibly go wrong?

    • Modifying the environment is fine but only if you do it with no thought or analysis whatsoever and are purely motivated by turning a buck. Then people will do anything to convince themselves that mankind could not possibly modify the environment.

      • Modifying the environment is fine but only if you do it with no thought or analysis whatsoever and are purely motivated by turning a buck. Then people will do anything to convince themselves that mankind could not possibly modify the environment.

        Not sure who's side you are on, but we have been quite successfully modifying the world's environment for around 300 years now.

        That was perhaps not a good thing. Trying to acid rain ourselves out of that problem is non only not a good thing, it is a remarkably stupid thing.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by irving47 ( 73147 )

      chemtrails. they've pretty much admitted it's already been happening for years.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Tablizer ( 95088 )

      I would hope they only do it when the wind is blowing out to sea.

      But why don't they rent a small remote island(s) to test? I realize hauling equipment around the globe ain't cheap, but fewer can and will complain, since there's no people around.

  • Maybe the concern is that it's JUST sea-salt. While spraying that mist is approximately natural, what assurances do we have that the chemical mixture is diverse enough? Are other chemicals being included, and if so, is it an equitable mix?

    • Ding Ding. Mod UP. A recent study proved beach and surf locations had seriously higher PFE levels - that's that nasty forever fire chemical, and that the ocean waves were to blame. Lets slap an injunction on the Pacific ocean for containing H20,NaCl and other chemicals. And we will need to retest all seafood,as it was swimming in these chemicals. There is another theory that when we had all these coal fired stations, all that smoke protected us from climate change disasters, which keep on increasing as more

  • Can't we have ordinary and useful length units, please?

  • Aerosolized whale poop (Score:3)

    by slacktide ( 796664 ) on Wednesday May 15, 2024 @11:30PM (#64475937)
    There's a lot of stuff in seawater besides just salt and water. There's the subject whale poop of course. But seriously, what about all the various algae and plankton that are going to be aerosolized, will anyone potentially be affected by that? A lot of marine algae are toxic, including some with paralytic neurotoxins. What about bacterial load from wastewater runoff in the bay? Chemical fertilizer residues? Has the Fukushima plume reached the bay area yet? Even uncontaminated seawater is far more radioactive than rainwater due to the naturally occurring dissolved minerals.

    • Sure beats sulfates.

      • Sure beats sulfates.

        I never really considered that Hydrochloric acid and Sulfuric acid's place on the wholesome goodness charts.

        Rain BTW, has acids in it, naturally. Carbonic Acid, and a bit of Nitric acid. They rain out quickly, in the atmospheric water cycle - an excellent natural cleaning process.

        Aerosolizing the global atmosphere means that the aerosols get removed in some short amount of time. So that acidic rainfall gets continually refreshed.

        A little investigation should show the scientifically literate why th

        • There's no shortage of bad climate ideas.

          • There's no shortage of bad climate ideas.

            True, Dat.

            The whole idea of how to reverse almost 300 years of de-sequestering CO2 in a short time should be an interest point for people. Make mistakes at haste, repent at leisure. This is terraforming 101, and can't be taken lightly.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] A thousand years of this is what they are proposing.

  • Salt particles are a hazard (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Required Snark ( 1702878 ) on Thursday May 16, 2024 @05:05AM (#64476215)
    In beach climate zones, salt particles in the air corrode metal and degrade other materials, and this is enhanced if the climate has lots of sunshine.

    Small particles are also a significant human health hazard. Individuals with respiratory issues can have severe reactions, including asthma attacks which can be life threatening. These salt particles are specifically intended to be very small so they can stay in the air and travel long distances, making the geographic footprint even greater.

    This is a horrible experiment to perform in an urban area. It is dangerous and possibly illegal. The agencies that fund this kind of work have well defined protocols addressing the human impact of experiments, and there is no way this would have been approved if the work had been correctly evaluated. Someone was negligent, cut corners or deliberately ignored the rules. Whoever is responsible will be in big trouble, like having the project canceled, being excluded from getting grants, or being fired trouble.

    Before HD camera were in cellphones and doorbells I worked on a project with a 720p camera. It was big, cost well over a hundred thousand dollars, and was very rare. When testing the camera it was decided we would not take pictures out of the windows since we could capture images of people walking outside. The protocol for the funding agency had very strict guidelines about human experimentation and we didn't want to have any problems. For motion image tests we bought some lava lamps and other electric motion toys so it was manifest that people were not experimental subjects.

    • They will cool the local environment by 0.0001K and also cause vehicles to rust and building anchor bolts to corrode while the energy to spray emits pollution elsewhere.

      Sounds like Climate Science!

  • "This ocean contains... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Crash Gordon ( 233006 ) on Thursday May 16, 2024 @10:18AM (#64476815)

    ... chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer, or birth defects or other reproductive harm."

  • FWIW, the USS Hornet is the aircraft carrier that picked up the Apollo 11, and 12 astronauts. It's a living museum and has the Apollo Test Capsule CM-011 and the Airstream mobile quarantine facility (aka trailer) onboard, along with many other great exhibits.

    Well worth your time if you're in the Bay Area, or the next time you visit.

    They have multiple tours, if you're an engineer, the engine room tour is a favorite.

    https://uss-hornet.org/history/splashdown

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