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Education Programming

Michigan Lawmakers Advance Bill Requiring All Public High Schools To At Least Offer CS (chalkbeat.org) 70

Posted by EditorDavid from the school-daze dept.
Michigan's House of Representatives passed a bill requiring all the state's public high schools to offer a computer science course by the start of the 2027-28 school year. (The bill now goes to the Senate, according to a report from Chalkbeat Detroit.)

Long-time Slashdot reader theodp writes: Michigan is also removing the requirement for CS teacher endorsements in 2026, paving the way for CS courses to be taught in 2027 by teachers who have "demonstrated strong computer science skills" but do not hold a CS endorsement. Michigan's easing of CS teaching requirements comes in the same year that New York State will begin requiring credentials for all CS teachers.

With lobbyist Julia Wynn from the tech giant-backed nonprofit Code.org sitting at her side, Michigan State Rep. Carol Glavnille introduced the CS bill (HB5649) to the House in May (hearing video, 16:20). "This is not a graduation requirement," Glavnille emphasized in her testimony. Code.org's Wynn called the Bill "an important first step" — after all, Code.org's goal is "to require all students to take CS to earn a HS diploma" — noting that Code.org has also been closely collaborating with Michigan's Education department "on the language and the Bill since inception." Wynn went on to inform lawmakers that "even just attending a high school that offers computer science delivers concrete employment and earnings benefits for students," citing a recent Brookings Institute article that also noted "30 states have adopted a key part of Code.org Advocacy Coalition's policy recommendations, which require all high schools to offer CS coursework, while eight states (and counting) have gone a step further in requiring all students to take CS as a high school graduation requirement."

Minutes from the hearing report other parties submitting cards in support of HB 5649 included Amazon (a $3+ million Code.org Platinum Supporter) and AWS (a Code.org In-Kind Supporter), as well as College Board (which offers the AP CS A and CSP exams) and TechNet (which notes its "teams at the federal and state levels advocate with policymakers on behalf of our member companies").

Michigan Lawmakers Advance Bill Requiring All Public High Schools To At Least Offer CS More | Reply

Michigan Lawmakers Advance Bill Requiring All Public High Schools To At Least Offer CS

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  • Why? (Score:3)

    by jrnvk ( 4197967 ) on Sunday June 23, 2024 @05:46PM (#64572103)
    These jobs are going to be outsourced to offshore companies and AI anyways.
    • In case anybody gets any ideas that they can't be replaced.

    • The same reason schools teach a broad number of subjects. But really computer science doesn't even need electronic computers. They just happens to be the most common tool. Take this text for example https://teachinglondoncomputin... [teachinglo...puting.org]

    • they're never low enough. At least not until you're waking your employees up at 4am for a 12 hour shift with nothing but a cup of tea and a biscuit [thedailybeast.com]

      • You know you're a lot like Hitler in this regard? In order to push his ideology, he had to convince the masses that not only was he supporting the working class, but also that they were all at dire risk of being unemployed, typically by pointing at shit that wasn't even relevant to Germans, scapegoating the opposition parties, Jews, etc. This is basically all you ever do here, though replace Jews with christians. Fortunately you aren't even remotely charismatic, and it took a global depression for him to co

        • So here on slashdot modpoints are limited. So the purpose of this nonsensical troll post is to draw a mod point away from my original post in order to make it less likely people would see my post and the ideas there in.

          Even on forums where everybody gets to mod troll posts can be effective for derailing a conversation.

          If you're going to engage in forums it's a good idea to start learning the tricks that are being used against you on those forums.

          • Nah, I had just watched a nazi docuseries on Netflix, and you posting that reminded me of the second episode when they were talking about how he was a crisis politician. Basically when things were going well, nobody was inclined to listen. Part of his strategy was to convince the "working people" that the sky was falling.

            • Posting stuff that you've just watched on TV onto social media. Wasn't there a stable orange genius who used to do that in the White House?

            • Nah, I had just watched a nazi docuseries on Netflix,

              If you do something like this in the future remember that you should refrain from comparing anything to hitler or nazis, or even stalin and the USSR for like a few weeks until you can fully integrate your edutainment consumption.

              • How about this: Is it a flawed comparison? If so, why?

                • 1. because you're trying to wave away the sky actually falling. For many it was and for many it is now.
                  2. it's a tale as old as time and it's funny that the single pattern you match is some shit you watched on netflix last week.

                  • 1. because you're trying to wave away the sky actually falling. For many it was and for many it is now.

                    Rather, unlike you two, I have no interest in seeing it fall. The sky is always falling for some people. Always is, always will be. But you know why it's falling for you two in particular? Basically this:

                    https://knowyourmeme.com/memes... [knowyourmeme.com]

                    2. it's a tale as old as time and it's funny that the single pattern you match is some shit you watched on netflix last week.

                    Hitler is as old as time? Interesting.

              • The person to first break Godwin's law has a link on their tagline that is labelled "F@ck Palestine [youtu.be]" -- without irony.

                Just replace one targeted group with another -- no longer fascism?

                Also, I agree "living wage" is about dignity.

                • You know what's the most interesting thing about that? Palestinians overwhelmingly support Hamas, who make nazis look like saints. By the way, do you have any idea who was a major influence on their ideology? Do you know who offered Hitler exile, partly because they looked up to him?

                  • Have you had your time under the boot? Cause you'd be surprised how you might behave.

                    • That's the mistaken assumption you're making because you buy into Hamas propaganda. First, more on what I alluded to earlier:

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

                      Think about this for a bit: Hitler painted Gerrmany to be the victim of some Jewish conspiracy. Palestine has strikingly similar origins. Until the 80s, there never was an actual state called Palestine at any point in history. After the original diaspora, it was always a province of some other country. The Romans called it Palestine because, in a nutsh

                    • TL;DR
                      I did see this:

                      >If somebody were always throwing rocks at you literally every day, wouldn't you want to do something to stop them

                      Oh the irony. I hope you get to enjoys some time with a boot in your remaining years so you can look in the mirror and marvel at becoming some sort of impotent old man terrorist.

        • Re: Because no matter how low wages get (Score:4, Insightful)

          by VeryFluffyBunny ( 5037285 ) on Monday June 24, 2024 @03:07AM (#64572733)
          I wanna be the first to call "Godwin's law" ...& it only took 1 turn!

          People like ArmouredDragon are the reason the rest of us can't have nice things, you know, something along the lines of antisocial personality disorder. But we live in a civilised society so we must tolerate them. I don't think ArmouredDragon understands that part of the social contract. He may actually believe he's right & making valid arguments & that being kind to each other, helping the unfortunate, & employers paying employees dignified salaries in respectful working conditions is "socialism."

          I can't remember but I think ArmouredDragon also conflates socialism with social democracy. You know, like he doesn't know what fascism is. Probably doesn't know what dignity is either.

          • I can't remember but I think ArmouredDragon also conflates socialism with social democracy. You know, like he doesn't know what fascism is. Probably doesn't know what dignity is either

            Naw man didn't you hear him. He watches documentaries and shit. Super smart.

          • You know what's ironic about all of this? I'm always the one explaining to idiots like you what these terms mean. Go ahead, point to even just one post where I used the word "socialism" that way.

            Spoiler: I never have.

            • I didn't say you used the word socialism or socialist. Just that you don't understand what many political terms actually mean.

              BTW, you did just call someone a socialist: The NAZI party = National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei).

              • I didn't say you used the word socialism or socialist. Just that you don't understand what many political terms actually mean.

                Which word, and where?

                BTW, you did just call someone a socialist: The NAZI party = National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei).

                Who, specifically? And which post?

        • In order to push his ideology, he had to convince the masses that not only was he supporting the working class, but also that they were all at dire risk of being unemployed, typically by pointing at shit that wasn't even relevant

          This Class VII projection is so strong my calculations predict it might bounce back as soon as this Thursday, June 27, 9 PM eastern and cause severe mental gymnastic disturbances.

      • We've been in the middle of a fertility crisis for years now. Arguably there aren't enough people entering CS, at least not proper CS anyway (as opposed to whatever gets you a career as a perpetual low-end help desk employee).

        Granted we're talking public schools here so who knows what would be in their CS curriculum.

        In any case, don't be in such a hurry to scare people out of a career in CS or IT, even if it does give you an opportunity to push some narrative that's only scarcely-related to the linked arti

        • We've been in the middle of a fertility crisis for years now. Arguably there aren't enough people entering CS, at least not proper CS anyway.

          Speaking of proper, define CS. Do you honestly think your definition is the same as everyone else? How about after they force-feed it into every HS cirruculum?

          Like many concepts that have become victimized with nonsensical re-definitions, CS is going to continue to suffer from an identity crisis. I KNOW what a mechanical engineer is taught and can do. So do 99% of employers needing that person. I still have no firm idea of what I’m getting when I hire a CS degree holder.

          Fix the identity problem.

          • Speaking of proper, define CS. Do you honestly think your definition is the same as everyone else?

            Uhh CS is a fairly well defined domain except in the mind of the general public and various schools meant to prey on them.
            I did look into some CS endorsement programs and the ones I saw seemed like an actual 1 year condensed CS degree which might be why it's hard to find teachers that have one.

            Unless your university was highly selective most people drop out of CS, now imagine being a teacher trying to juggle work on top of shit like that.

    • At least it's better than mandating a copy of the ten commandments in every classroom.
      • Apparently, the law stipulates 11 commandments rather than 10: https://legis.la.gov/legis/Vie... [la.gov] Perhaps they're Spinal Tap fans... their commandments go up to eleven.
        • It also requires an abridged version. You can read the two versions of the complete text in Exodus [sefaria.org] and Deuteronomy [sefaria.org].

          To your point, lines 2 and 3 in the law's list are generally considered to be part of the same "commandment". On the other hand, if you go by a full list of the 613 commandments in the Torah, there are a total of 14 commandments in the Ten Commandments. 13 come from the text in Exodus, and one more comes from the text in Deuteronomy.
          • Yeah but Charlton Heston said 10 in a Hollywood movie so it's 10.
            • "Ten Commandments" wasn't just invented by Christians, though it is an incorrect translation. The Torah refers to them as "Aseret Ha-d'varim", which is probably best translated as "Ten Statements". The Hebrew root D-V-R means "word" or "thing". "Commandment" is definitely wrong, since the Hebrew would be "mitzvah".

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by zlives ( 2009072 )

              to be fair he did drop the other 10 and broke the tablets

    • Part of my concern is not the offshore companies, I expect teacher's unions to _scream_ about that. They've been screaming about various aspects of remote teaching, this is merely another. I expect cheating, especially amateurish AI cheating, explode in popularity.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dohzer ( 867770 )

      I wonder if there's any kind of CS work that can't be offshored for security reasons. I'll keep thinking and see if I can figure it out.

    • The Michigan Education Association is a pretty powerful lobby. That's unlikely to happen. Teachers will still keep the job of "educator" which outside of parroting AI cirriculum is classroom babysitter, discipline enforcer and internet/chatbot monitor.

    • You can say that about most disciplines.

      But people should have the choice and you still need people to build the AIs, and it's dangerous to do away with that. You can't do maths these days without some CS so it makes sense to at least teach everyone one a bit so that they can understand what it's about. Trying to force everyone to learn programming would be counter-productive and make a lot of people hate CS, like they do Maths.

      • If you want school children to understand how the brain works & how to get machines to mimic it, shouldn't they be preparing to study cognitive linguistics, psycholinguistics, neuroscience, etc.? For those, you need a pretty good grounding in the natural sciences, social sciences, & mathematics (especially statistics).

  • Not sure this is going in the right direction (Score:4, Insightful)

    by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Sunday June 23, 2024 @06:56PM (#64572187)

    "Michigan is also removing the requirement for CS teacher endorsements in 2026, paving the way for CS courses to be taught in 2027 by teachers who have "demonstrated strong computer science skills" but do not hold a CS endorsement."

    A lot of us oldsters here were at least partially self-taught - so I want to be careful to qualify this. But I'd like to know who is determining whether a person's "strong computer science skills" are "demonstrated". Because, in my experience, many non-technical types of people far too readily assume that any random person who knows the right buzzwords is a bonafide computer genius. A non-trivial amount of the end user support my group has to do involves cleaning up messes created due to errant sage advice given by these sorts of "geniuses".

    • I'm 100% against this industry / gates funded hype pushing CS education in our falling public education system that simply needs to be left alone like it was -- when it peaked in the 60s before it became a political football. You can't do anything politically for it today that is positive with our dysfunctional political system other than FUND it better.

      High school wasn't required and it wasn't free for everybody; now it is. Times became more complex. Now we should be extending education 2 more years and a

    • I looked at CS endorsements at universities in other states. Here's a randomly picked one:


      Computer Programming and the CS Classroom
      Introduction to Computer Science for CS Teachers
      Data Structures for CS Teachers
      Computer Systems for CS Teachers
      Discrete Mathematics for CS Teachers
      Capstone Project for CS Teachers

      My guess is that most people who manage to pass these classes end up doing some work that pays better than teaching and teachers are dropping these programs. It's normal, in any fairly accessible CS

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      The ability to get an A on the CS exam would probably be a good indicator.

    • "Michigan is also removing the requirement for CS teacher endorsements in 2026, paving the way for CS courses to be taught in 2027 by teachers who have "demonstrated strong computer science skills" but do not hold a CS endorsement."

      A lot of us oldsters here were at least partially self-taught - so I want to be careful to qualify this. But I'd like to know who is determining whether a person's "strong computer science skills" are "demonstrated". Because, in my experience, many non-technical types of people far too readily assume that any random person who knows the right buzzwords is a bonafide computer genius. A non-trivial amount of the end user support my group has to do involves cleaning up messes created due to errant sage advice given by these sorts of "geniuses".

      I asked this of someone else, but define CS for me.

      Really think your definition today, matches everyone else’s?

      CS suffers from an identity crisis, wrapped and sold with “the future is computers” tag lines. It’s no surprise they’re validating the barely-qualified to teach. You don’t need much training to teach a religion. And if it’s not a religion, then it would have a CLEAR definition that is consistent, right?

      Employers in damn near every country know what a mec

  • and media literacy. Yeah, you'll get a ton of flak from parents upset when little Johnny comes home and points those skills at the family's sacred cows, but it'll make for vastly capable and useful adults.

    What we don't need is a job teaching program for jobs that went to India years ago.
  • Why only offer CS when CS2 has been out for months? Come on Michigan. Do Better
  • They want physics and calculus and sometimes chemistry. They couldn't care less about CS in K12

  • Call it Computer Applications or Engineering. (Score:3)

    by BlueCoder ( 223005 ) on Sunday June 23, 2024 @09:35PM (#64572433)

    Stop calling it CS. People don't need archaic theory. They didn't need it 40 years ago either. They need to
    know BASIC design and application. Basic programming. Databases. And data exchange over
    a network. They don't need to know calculus, just basic algebra.

    You have basics and then get to complicated programming IF they prove an aptitude. The important thing
    is taking the magic out of computers and micro-controllers. Understand what and how they basically do what
    they do and what is hard to do, and what they can't do. Computer application.

    Give every student a Raspberry Pi and ESP32. Just grasp the concepts.

    • People are still using BASIC?

    • This is the way. I have a CS degree but k12 kids basically need a shop class where they prop up a bunch of shit and write programs for it.
      They shouldn't call it CS either, I dunno what to call it but it wouldn't be CS and 9 out of 10 kids will hate CS anyhow.
      Even xkcd had that stick guy learning BigO thinking "I just want to make a video game"

      Before anyone argues, kids with this exposure to programming before CS almost always did much better than those who didn't so yes it will help us make more actual CS

  • For both highschool students and lawmakers?

  • I took a HS class that was supposed to be accredited, but apparently the board dragged their feet on getting the accreditation. The teacher found out we weren't getting anything besides math credit for the class, and he promptly quit the position. Then it was just programming book-work that nobody did but everyone still magically passed :\ As for this story, they have kind of already been doing it. Most of my grade school (and some HS, iirc) computer class experience was a room of computers operated by a
  • They do not mean computer science, which is a branch of mathematics consisting of sophisticated stuff which requires a lot of learning maturity. They mean learning to use some basic tools (word processor, spreadsheet, maybe a browser) plus some elementary code monkeying. A better name would be computer literacy.

    • They do not mean computer science, which is a branch of mathematics consisting of sophisticated stuff which requires a lot of learning maturity. They mean learning to use some basic tools (word processor, spreadsheet, maybe a browser) plus some elementary code monkeying. A better name would be computer literacy.

      Hell, just add in typing class so that they can actually touch type, not hunt and peck, which would decrease the time needed to write something for class.

  • As others have pointed out, anyone really competent enough to effectively teach such a class likely will wind up leaving for a different job pretty quickly; where I live math and science teachers, unless they are close to retirement, regularly bail after a few years. They simply get tired of the crap they get from the administration, students, and parents for what they get paid.

    Such a class is likely to be some prepackaged syllabus that really doesn't teach strong fundamental understanding; and the teacher

    • My algebra teacher was the gym teacher and he was extremely insistent on following the book methodology because "we build on it later".
      Wasn't sure what to make of this at the time but I now know he was a lair and probably used the teachers guide.
      Pretty fucking stupid on his part because he also assigned like 30 problems a night which is freaking crazy, like dude how about you assign some actual gradable quantity of homework so you can do a good job?

  • This is so stupid. It will not lead to a better informed or educated population, nor will it prepare students for life in general. Most anything that could be learned of value could be done thru existing classes like math. Instead what should be mandatory for all US students is one year of home econ/basic finance. Knowing the basics of how to live (clean, cook, shop, etc) and budget and financially plan for the future is very important. Much more important than some coding class. I believe most school dist

  • What is the "CS" that they will be teaching? I suspect it is actually just computer "literacy" and maybe how to program simple programs. That's not computer science.

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