Greece Introduces Six-day Working Week (cnbc.com) 124
Greece has introduced a six-day working week for some businesses in a bid to boost productivity and employment in the southern European country. From a report: The regulation, which came into force on July 1, bucks a global trend of companies exploring a shorter working week. Under the new legislation, which was passed as part of a broader set of labor laws last year, employees of private businesses that provide round-the-clock services will reportedly have the option of working an additional two hours per day or an extra eight-hour shift. The change means a traditional 40-hour workweek could be extended to 48 hours per week for some businesses. Food service and tourism workers are not included in the six-day working week initiative.
Up next (Score:5, Funny)
Raising the retirement age!
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
retirement? who said you get to retire? Work until you die.
Hey...if working 6 days per week boosts the economy, let's try 7.
Up next: We've added reflectors in orbit so you can work 18 hours per day, get 6 hours of sleep, and repeat that until we put you in the grave.
Re: (Score:2)
>Hey...if working 6 days per week boosts the economy, let's try 7.
1963's âoeThe Subliminal Manâ by J.G. Ballard
also ad the subliminal ads everywhere, and not just panned but assisted obsolescence (such as changing the bumps on the roads to cause vibrations to cycle can faster.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: Up next (Score:3)
Don't most places have a set retirement age solely for the sake of taxes?
You're not being forced to stop working, but after a certain age you access tax sheltered savings accounts and government benefits. Where are you forced to stop working?
Re: (Score:2)
Don't most places have a set retirement age solely for the sake of taxes?
You're not being forced to stop working, but after a certain age you access tax sheltered savings accounts and government benefits. Where are you forced to stop working?
I'm well past what most people, including the Social Security Administration, would consider retirement age, and I'm still working full time, because (1) I truly enjoy the work I do and the people I work with; (2) it keeps my brain from decaying; (3) I have great health insurance; and (4) I'm well compensated, which allows me to do things I might not be able to do in the same style if I retired. As far as taxes go...unlike my IRA, which by law forces me to take a Minimum Required Distribution every year, my
Re: Up next (Score:2)
I fail to see how this answered my question.
Re: (Score:2)
I fail to see how this answered my question.
Well, you actually asked two questions.
Where are you forced to stop working?
Yeah, I didn't answer that one. There are a number of places I know of that force people to stop working when they reach the established retirement age. Police and Fire departments are two examples.
Don't most places have a set retirement age solely for the sake of taxes?
I gave an answer to this, but I guess it was more implied than explicit. I interpreted the "places" to mean "governments", since they're the institutions most interested in collecting tax revenue. In the case of the USA, Social Security benefits are taxable only if you have
Re: (Score:2)
>Where are you forced to stop working?
must . . . resist . . Biden joke . . .
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Indeed, however there's some problems with what you describe: most of those systems were setup when the life expectancy was shorter, and the population was growing.
You typically aren't pulling directly from your own "pot" of money (because typically it would have never been enough to fund your retirement). The larger working class payed in to fund the retirement of the smaller retired group.
As life expectancy goes up though, then the size of the retired group goes up. And as birth rates go down, the size
make it harder to fire older workers at the same t (Score:2)
make it harder to fire older workers at the same time as well.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't have an issue with that.
Personally I wouldn't care about working longer - my stress from work comes more from stress about the economy, layoffs, potentially getting fired if I make a mistake, etc. I don't look at future potential retirement as saving me from work, but rather as saving me from the STRESS of the logistics around work.
If it was just a matter of showing up and toiling away I wouldn't care about ever retiring.
Re: (Score:3)
Easy choice, #3, from the people who've taken all productivity gains since the '70s for themselves.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The rich aren't the solution.
For one, understand that when you hear crazy net worths for many people like Elon Musk or Bill Gates, a lot of that isn't liquid wealth, nor is it even income - its tied up in stocks. EG, ownership of one or more companies. While they could take it out (and be taxed on it), that would negatively affect the stock value (ie if they all tried to turn that into actual money it would literally crash the economy), and it could only be done once.
The actual churning of the economy tha
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Also it doesn't matter how much you save because if the production capacity falls substantially your savings are worthless. Imagine something similar to the Great Depression where numerous people who were previously wealthy found out how little that was worth when there was nothing to buy with it. Such upheavals are rare, but what good are all your savings, as much as they may be, if there's only a s
Re: (Score:2)
I totally agree and have thought this for many years now. One day it just struck me that all the "we must save for our retirement" messaging from the government was nonsense. Sure it may work on an individual level, you may out save others, but not on a macro scale. That is why we need to focus on real efficiency, not the efficiency economist tout measured in how many dollars each person produces per hour, but actually useful stuff people produce. We should be able to do it, we have much better technology n
Re: (Score:2)
Has every person worked enough to live off of that program for the remainder of their life past a set age?
The answer to that depends on what you mean by "living". The maximum Social Security benefit ($3,822 per month if you retire at "full retirement age"; currently that's 67 years) is enough for a person to get by on if your rent or mortgage and car payments are modest and you don't go on any fancy vacations or eat out too often. But here's the catch: you must have paid the maximum withholding for the past 35 years to qualify for the maximum benefit. In 2024, you have to earn $168,600 to pay the maximum withho
Re: (Score:3)
In 2024, you have to earn $168,600 to pay the maximum withholding. My guess is, if you've been making that much money for that long, you're not going to be very happy on $3,822 per month.
So maybe they should have saved some of that money instead of pissing it all away ...
Re: (Score:2)
In 2024, you have to earn $168,600 to pay the maximum withholding. My guess is, if you've been making that much money for that long, you're not going to be very happy on $3,822 per month.
So maybe they should have saved some of that money instead of pissing it all away ...
I can't disagree with that; it's exactly what I did and continue to do. But that wasn't the question I was answering.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Up next (Score:5, Interesting)
But see, the point of society is that we stick together, each giving a small sacrifice in exchange of receiving greater benefits. Most people don't work out of love for their jobs, they work towards their retirement. The carrot at the end of the stick for most people is that, after a while, you will get to "start enjoying your life" after you're done grinding.
Removing that carrot is yet another reason for the younger generation to refuse the stick. They already feel that they got shafted enough as is, with their parents having achieved far more while working far less. If your parents could own a home and two cars with a highschool education AND retire at the age of 55, while you're barely stating to pay off your college debt in your early 30s AND there will be no promise of retirement for you...
Why even work?
As you said, there is no free lunch, and that works both ways. Younger people don't feel the urge to work, as is. They're entering the workforce later with even less of a promise, while they could just smoke weed and play video games all day to forget about the rest of the world. Sounds to me like a Roman collapse waiting to happen.
Re: (Score:2)
Waiting to happen is one perspective.
In progress may be more correct.
Jesus fucking Christ (Score:2)
So you kill yourself for the best years of your life so you can lay down in pain for a few miserable years at the very end.
But nobody refuses the stick. The stick if violence. You're beaten to death with it. There's always that light undercurrent of violence, that if you don't keep grinding you'll be homeless, and the good squad will come, arrest you and toss you in a work camp.
For a brief period of time we made that illegal, but the Supreme Court just overturned i
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Younger people don't feel the urge to work, as is.
The "bargain" that was offered when I was a child was barely worth it to participate in this mess. That "bargain" has only become worse over time. Of course none of the younger people want to work. Offer them some amount of consideration and they might be willing to work and fuck for you some more. Until then, expect barren fields.
Re: (Score:3)
Without an increasing population (or gains in productivity not immediately offset by an increase in expected standards/costs of living)
Expected standards/costs of living aren't what has kept people from benefiting from gains in productivity, it's ownership dividends and upper management pay that does that.
Re: (Score:2)
You've probably seen the basic "productivity/pay" graph. It's good for getting a gauge of total productivity improvement:
https://economicsfromthetopdow... [wordpress.com]
Once you realize that "productivity" is just a total of all wages, we can see that pay-productivity graphs are really just inequality graphs. So here we can see a breakdown of where the pay is going:
https://files.epi.org/charts/i... [epi.org]
Those values are inflation-adjusted (and inflation tracks closely with cost of living) so we can see how much money people in
Re: (Score:2)
An ability/inability to retire is coupled to wealth (agreed), and unfortunately is relatively uncoupled from productivity where the value of the productivity doesn't accrue to you as wealth.
Translation: You can work your ass off, but if someone else is getting most of the benefit, you'll still lose.
Re: Up next (Score:2)
medicare age needs to go down or single player! (Score:3)
medicare age needs to go down or single player!
Re: (Score:2)
Just like the USA has been doing. The age to start receiving Social Security benefits went from 65 to 67, and there are talks about moving it all the way up to 70, or eliminating it altogether. Also, stupid managers calling you on your days off, or even during vacation time.
American Social Security tax-contribution has an upper limit.
Quoting Investopedia: "The maximum amount of Social Security tax an employee will have withheld from their paycheck in 2024 is $10,453.20 ($168,600 x 6.2%)."
Why not make the tax-contribution "unlimited" where you keep earning in a CY so you keep paying into Social Security? Is that "limit" a sop by Congress to the wealthy in Amerika?
https://www.investopedia.com/2... [investopedia.com]
Re: (Score:2)
>Is that "limit" a sop by Congress to the wealthy in Amerika?
No, it's the nature of the program, and how it was sold to the public.
In theory, you statistically get your own contributions back, with some interest.
This is roughly true for the "middle" of the three tiers of benefits.
There is also the lower tier, in which you get that amount, but also a "kicker" as a wealth transfer/anti-poverty program (it is this kicker, not the base benefit, that gets reduced if you have another pension). To pay for the
Elect the (R)soles in November (Score:2)
and we'll get to work 29 hours a day and pay the mill owner for permission to come to work...
Greece's labor market historically dysfunctional (Score:3)
It wasn't too long ago that Greece went through a massive default on debt. In years past, their labor market had been underutilized and experienced low productivity. Much of their economy had become reliant on revenue from a few business sectors, such as shipping.
To an extent, it makes sense to give Greek businesses overtime options, though it's not clear if Greeks culturally will accept or take advantage of the opportunity, even if the extra work hours come with a higher rate of pay (do they?). It's also curious that Greece is pushing this policy against a backdrop of rampant "undocumented" immigration to their region.
Re: (Score:2)
In another post it was claimed that the overtime hours were to be worked at a 40% increase in wages.
Re: (Score:2)
40% isn't great, but it's something. At least it won't be straight time.
Re:Greece's labor market historically dysfunctiona (Score:4, Interesting)
though it's not clear if Greeks culturally will accept or take advantage of the opportunity
The Greek area already overworking. This is much like a lot of other attempts of the government to reign in undocumented behaviour. By making something legal it becomes reportable, which means little Yiorgos can stop working 5 days a week + 1 day for cash only as an undocumented worker, and switch to working 6 days a week while his employer looses the chance to fuck him over.
Re: (Score:2)
Is this measure ending overtime pay? From other responses, it seemed that it was completely against the law for workers to work more than 40 hours per week at a single employer, with a few small exceptions.
Re: (Score:2)
Devalued Labour (Score:2)
Until Productivity Improves... (Score:2)
... the beatings will continue
Re: (Score:2)
Non-racist slavery -- the only way forward (Score:2)
I am not talking about racial slavery but a slavery based on merit -- race-based slavery seemed like a good idea at first until it turned out that idiots exist in every race. However the idea of having slaves was never proven to reduce productivity -- if anything it increases it .. look at Dubai. For the good of civilization and advancing the progress of mankind towards a utopia, 90% of humans must be enslaved. 8% can have bureaucratic positions of authority to manage the slaves -- people chosen for their w
Re: (Score:2)
How about moving faster towards the mostly slave based economy we are worried about transitioning to already:
robotnick = slave; a century ago before the word "robot" was adopted to English the best description was "mechanical slave."
Re: (Score:2)
Switching from employment to slavery would be too expensive, can you imagine the costs of having to not only feed slaves, but house them and provide them healthcare to keep them working and prevent them from dropping dead? Corporations haven't borne those costs in decades! It's far cheaper to let people voluntarily choose to work (at a price the market decides, under threat of homelessness and starvation). Then companies don't necessarily need to pay them more than it takes for them to continue to go to wor
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Let's assume it was sarcasm (or satire), what would my explicit statement of that have achieved?
Re: (Score:2)
Why, it's not as absurd as you seem to think. In fact, many nations, which are currently outcompeting the West economically, are moving closer to this model (or have never steered far from it). It has only one fatal flaw (if we abstain from ethical arguments) - for it to thrive, it needs somebody to buy its products. Remove the West from the equation, and the whole model crumbles. A nation comprised mostly by slaves has a miserably small market.
Re: (Score:2)
Why do you need a market .. get the slaves to build you stuff you need.
counterproductive? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
One of the mantras of late stage capitalism is that supply creates its own demand. [corporatef...titute.com] Increase the labor supply, and demand will surely go up!
"Global trend" (Score:2)
Outside progressive circles, global trend is toward longer work weeks. Pretty much all nations that want to stay industrial or become industrial are doing this. China is 996. 12 hours a day, six days a week. Koreans and Japanese are even more hardcore in many fields. Longer hours are also common in places like Turkey and Eastern European nations that are taking on a lot of industry that is offshoring from more progressive nations across North and West Europe.
So I'm not sure what "global trend" is being refe
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, the "official numbers" (TM).
Meanwhile, this is what reality looks like, from school age onwards:
https://twitter.com/HumansNoCo... [twitter.com]
Re: (Score:2)
I literally just ran into this hilarious video, telling you how they allow more efficient rest right at the desks because of just how long of hours everyone is pulling in China from childhood:
https://twitter.com/HumansNoCo... [twitter.com]
But let's pretend that "official numbers" are true because farmers officially don't work that much.
Not surprised (Score:2)
Somebody has to repay all that debt.
Re: (Score:2)
all that made up debt, you mean
Re: (Score:2)
Doesn't matter, someone still has to repay it.
Re: (Score:2)
I think Greece has a maximum working week of 40 hours and no day may exceed 8. Something like that. I believe this is an attempt to expand that, and is being sold to the slaves as a way to earn more. They have a brain drain problem with people leaving to higher wage areas.
I'm definitely not sure this is a solution to any problem except how the wealthy can squeeze more blood from a stone.
Re: (Score:2)
Making people work an extra day per week will surely improve morale and keep people from fleeing. Take a wild guess on who will start filling these empty positions?
Oh come on guess.
Immigrants!
Re: There's some context missing. (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Greece should overhaul their tax system to greatly simplify and reduce the rates. They'd earn far more money if everyone would pay a smaller amount that no one could dodge as easily.
Re: (Score:2)
How many immigrants would want to stay in Greece when they can go to far nicer European Union countries
Probably quite a few. Greece has nice weather, definitely not at cold as other parts of the EU, and with a culture of laziness, you might work 6 days a week, but you don't work hard.
Re: (Score:2)
Are they getting any overtime pay past 40 hours?
Re: (Score:2)
I think they're getting paid for the extra day, but I haven't seen that spelled out anywhere.
Re: (Score:2)
Are they getting any overtime pay past 40 hours?
Of course not.
The official work week is moving from 5 x 8 to 6 x 8 and because oligarchs are parasites with an insatiable desire to extract never ending amounts of wealth from the economy for themselves, you better believe they're already planning on ways to take that additional day's pay from you through increased prices on goods and services.
The best part though? With only a single day off per week, and you being tired as hell because of it, you won't have any energy left to organize and fight back.
Re: There's some context missing. (Score:2)
They have a brain drain problem with people leaving to higher wage areas.
That's basically all of Europe.
Re: (Score:3)
In the US maybe. In Greece 40 hours plus a very small amount of overtime is allowed. (150 hours a year of overtime (+2.6 hours a week on average)) is the absolute max allowed by law.
https://www.rivermate.com/guid... [rivermate.com]
Re:There's some context missing. (Score:5, Informative)
It depends where. France has a 35 hour maximum. The US has a 40 hour / week max before you have to pay 1.5x overtime for many hourly workers (yes subject to a LOT of often abused exceptions with "exempt employees").
The MSNBC article is terrible because it doesn't actually describe what they're even trying to do in Greece, but it links this Guardian article that has at least a bit more:
staff in select industries and manufacturing facilities will have the option of working an additional two hours a day or an extra eight-hour shift, rewarded with a top-up fee of 40% added to the daily wage.
(from https://www.theguardian.com/wo... [theguardian.com] )
So it sounds like it allows something like the US system (but with only 1.4x above 40 hrs)
(which is confirmed by https://www.replicon.com/regul... [replicon.com] ... (not sure though what changed "today" vs the 2021 law ... idk if it was dormant since then or this removes some additional caps or what )
Re: 1800s called (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: 1800s called (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
But things seem to be going in a decent enough direction these days.
Productivity is up. Working from home is up. I only have to come in once a week.
I can't speak to the whole country, but my employment outlook seems great, and I've got a better work/life balance than I've ever had.
Here's hoping the trend continues in that direction.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:JFC we're going backwards (Score:4, Informative)
I am eagerly anticipating your proposed alternative solution. Let me preempt it with the question "And what will you do when you run out of the rich people's money?" as I already know it doesn't involve reducing social spending or requiring people to work more to support it. You can only take the wealthiest people's money once, and then you're right back in the same spot again.
Re:JFC we're going backwards (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
They are free (Score:2)
It's cheaper to be a good person.
Re: (Score:2)
There it is, again. "Tax dodging."
Okay, _how_ ? You can't buy anything above â400 (or is it â600?) with cash. Employees have their salaries automatically taxed. I do not even _see_ money anymore. It is automatically added to my bank acct. The government knows more about my money and how I use it than _I_ do. Do you imagine, like, the majority of greeks being masters at laundering money or something?
Do you _know_ what is happening, why greece is a financial mess, or like everyone else, do you keep
Re: (Score:2)
A common example, and one you are exposed to whenever you visit Greece or Cyprus is the "legal" ways around taxation.
For example, and this may have changed since I last checked for sure, but it was a common sight to see buildings "unfinished" but in normal use - the top floor of the building open and exposed, or with columns and exposed rebar suggesting the addition of another floor above etc.
Thats because the tax for the building was only payable on completion of the building - so people just stopped compl
Re: (Score:2)
Over the last decade Greece has spend roughly 23-27% of its GDP on social programs.
That's in-line with other EU states.
Greece was forced to endure 15 years of austerity, that destroyed the higher education, and decimated the high-profit sectors like shipbuilding. Now Greece is forced to compete with Turkey for low-margin tourist business, that just can't pay enough and stay competitive.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
And what will you do when you run out of the rich people's money?
Has that ever in the history of humanity been a problem? I've asked that a few times and the answer always seems to be "Look at this example where poor people's after tax wages are so low they don't want to work."
Always framed as some conservative agenda .... (Score:3, Insightful)
Here to tell you, the "right wing" doesn't categorically "want this". This is about a few political leaders who just want to try anything they think will have some short-term success at improving productivity numbers so they can take credit for it.
I don't live in Greece so I can only speak directly about things in America. But really, the biggest complaints I see are about inability to get hired at a good enough wage. Telling existing employees they either can or must work a few more hours a week does *not
as automation takes over need to lower hours befor (Score:2)
as automation takes over need to lower hours before OT not up them.
Re:Always framed as some conservative agenda .... (Score:4, Insightful)
In France the RN has in its program the partial destruction of the "college unique", replacing it with a "faster orientation towards the workspace" school mechanism. That's grades 6-9 we're talking about (kids 11-15), an extreme reading would go "legalizing child labour". As a bonus it would reduce social mobility even more.
This is far right wing: power bending over to assuage business, and business wants cheap labour.
Re: (Score:2)
You're kind of highlighting your own problem. There are too many old retirees relying on the younger working populace to take care of them.
Longer lifespans and reduced birthrates have gotten the ratio out of whack, and there isn't enough money/funds/resources to support the retired demographic.
To get the ratio back into a working balance, either the young people have to work more (either through there being more young people, eg birth rates, or by working more hours), or there has to be a smaller amount go
Re: (Score:2)
The other bad option is wealth tax.
Re: (Score:2)
Longer hours and lower pay.
Your post would be relevant if we weren't talking about Greece. Greece is infamously known for off the books employment. Just because they had a 5 day work week doesn't mean that people weren't working 6 days already. When making it official it's like legalising drugs: the government can tax it and gain some form of control over it.
FWIW the average hours worked in Greece is 42hours/w. That is hugely out of step with the EU and developed nations, especially when you consider it's higher than the USA, and the
Re: (Score:2)
I guess that's what the right wing wants. Longer hours and lower pay. And we've got a fuck ton of retirees who did 6 day work weeks for a year in their 20s (for enough money to buy a house) voting for this crap because they'll never have to work again.
Watching bitter old people destroy everything on their way out the door sucks. It's like somebody heard that phrase "plant a tree whole's shade you'll never lie in" and said "where's my flame thrower and salt for the Earth?"
I remember working 6 and 7 days a week when I was young. If I wanted to buy something I had to earn $$ to outright buy it since "credit" beyond having a credit card from an oil/gasoline company was as could as most people could do. No "get a loan via a few click in your cell phone" in those days.
Am I bitter? H3LL NO. I did well by investing the money that I earned over 4 decades of work. My retirement is comfortable. I don't want or need Maralago opulence or a home on a Delaware beach. The roof over my head
Re:JFC we're going backwards (Score:4, Interesting)
Eh?
https://tradingeconomics.com/u... [tradingeconomics.com]
Well, maybe in Greece:
https://tradingeconomics.com/g... [tradingeconomics.com]
I guess the Greek lefties took over in 2012, kicked out the Panhellenic Socialist government, voted for the right wingers, and established pajama time at work. Or maybe it had something to do with that whole debt crisis thing.
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly no one is demanding a 3-year efficiency study to figure out how Twitter was able to become X but with 6,000 less liberals on the payroll.
Easy, the company's running on the ragged edge of disaster, with high downtime and widespread moderation enforcement failures, and is hurtling toward the dustbin of history. Maybe you think we should study Boeing for their brilliant cost-saving measures too, maybe Oceangate for their brilliant lean innovation?
Productivity crashed? Citation fucking needed, productivity is through the roof! Businesses have been making so much money from today's workers it's obscene. People are now 40% more productive than in
Re: (Score:2)
Funny how nobody labels paying yourself and your upper-class cronies a king's ransom on workers' backs as obscene laziness and entitlement.
It is laziness and entitlement, and I have seen it labeled that many times. That is one of the reasons I hate copyright/patent, have a good idea, sit on your ass collecting royalties for the rest of your life. We all want to live that dream, strike it rich, and just consume the rest of your life, guess what we can't. The problem with rsilvergun is he is going after old people, who the vast majority of worked hard, saved a bit to retire on. Some things where harder for old people some things where easier, i