Chinese Self-Driving Cars Have Quietly Traveled 1.8 Million Miles On US Roads (fortune.com) 65
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Fortune: On February 1st last year, Montana residents gawked upwards at a large white object hovering in the sky that looked to be another moon. The airborne object was in fact a Chinese spy balloon loaded with cameras, sensors, and other high-tech surveillance equipment, and it set off a nationwide panic as it drifted across the midwestern and southern United States. How much information the balloon gathered -- if any -- remains unknown, but the threat was deemed serious enough that an F-22 U.S. Air Force jet fired a Sidewinder missile at the unmanned balloon on a February afternoon, blasting it to pieces a few miles off the coast of South Carolina. At the same time that the eyes of Americans were fixed on the Chinese intruder in the sky, around 30 cars owned by Chinese companies and equipped with cameras and geospatial mapping technology were navigating the streets of greater Los Angeles, San Francisco, and San Jose. They collected detailed videos, audio recordings, and location data on their surroundings to chart out California's roads and develop their autonomous driving algorithms.
Since 2017, self-driving cars owned by Chinese companies have traversed 1.8 million miles of California alone, according to a Fortune analysis of the state's Department of Motor Vehicles data. As part of their basic functionality, these cars capture video of their surroundings and map the state's roads to within two centimeters of precision. Companies transfer that information from the cars to data centers, where they use it to train their self-driving systems. The cars are part of a state program that allows companies developing self-driving technology -- including Google-spinoff Waymo and Amazon-owned Zoox -- to test autonomous vehicles on public roads. Among the 35 companies approved to test by the California DMV, seven are wholly or partly China-based. Five of them drove on California roads last year: WeRide, Apollo, AutoX, Pony.ai, and DiDi Research America. Some Chinese companies are approved to test in Arizona and Texas as well.
Fitted with cameras, microphones, and sophisticated sensors, self-driving cars have long raised flags among privacy advocates. Matthew Guariglia, a policy analyst at the digital rights nonprofit Electronic Frontier Foundation, called self-driving cars "rolling surveillance devices" that passively collect massive amounts of information on Americans in plain sight. In the context of national security however, the data-hungry Chinese cars have received surprisingly little scrutiny. Some experts have compared them to Chinese-owned social media site TikTok, which has been subjected to a forced divestiture or ban on U.S. soil due to fears around its data collection practices threatening national security. The years-long condemnation of TikTok at the highest levels of the U.S. government has heightened the sense of distrust between the U.S. and China.
Some Chinese self-driving car companies appear to store U.S. data in China, according to privacy policies reviewed byFortune -- a situation that experts said effectively leaves the data accessible to the Chinese government. Depending on the type of information collected by the cars, the level of precision, and the frequency at which it's collected, the data could provide a foreign adversary with a treasure trove of intelligence that could be used for everything from mass surveillance to war planning, according to security experts who spoke withFortune. And yet, despite the sensitivity of the data, officials at the state and federal agencies overseeing the self-driving car testing acknowledge that they do not currently monitor, or have any process for checking, exactly what data the Chinese vehicles are collecting and what happens to the data after it is collected. Nor do they have any additional rules or policies in place for oversight of Chinese self-driving cars versus the cars in the program operated by American or European companies. "It is literally the wild, Wild West here," said Craig Singleton, director of the China program at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a conservative-leaning national security think tank. "There's no one in charge."
Since 2017, self-driving cars owned by Chinese companies have traversed 1.8 million miles of California alone, according to a Fortune analysis of the state's Department of Motor Vehicles data. As part of their basic functionality, these cars capture video of their surroundings and map the state's roads to within two centimeters of precision. Companies transfer that information from the cars to data centers, where they use it to train their self-driving systems. The cars are part of a state program that allows companies developing self-driving technology -- including Google-spinoff Waymo and Amazon-owned Zoox -- to test autonomous vehicles on public roads. Among the 35 companies approved to test by the California DMV, seven are wholly or partly China-based. Five of them drove on California roads last year: WeRide, Apollo, AutoX, Pony.ai, and DiDi Research America. Some Chinese companies are approved to test in Arizona and Texas as well.
Fitted with cameras, microphones, and sophisticated sensors, self-driving cars have long raised flags among privacy advocates. Matthew Guariglia, a policy analyst at the digital rights nonprofit Electronic Frontier Foundation, called self-driving cars "rolling surveillance devices" that passively collect massive amounts of information on Americans in plain sight. In the context of national security however, the data-hungry Chinese cars have received surprisingly little scrutiny. Some experts have compared them to Chinese-owned social media site TikTok, which has been subjected to a forced divestiture or ban on U.S. soil due to fears around its data collection practices threatening national security. The years-long condemnation of TikTok at the highest levels of the U.S. government has heightened the sense of distrust between the U.S. and China.
Some Chinese self-driving car companies appear to store U.S. data in China, according to privacy policies reviewed byFortune -- a situation that experts said effectively leaves the data accessible to the Chinese government. Depending on the type of information collected by the cars, the level of precision, and the frequency at which it's collected, the data could provide a foreign adversary with a treasure trove of intelligence that could be used for everything from mass surveillance to war planning, according to security experts who spoke withFortune. And yet, despite the sensitivity of the data, officials at the state and federal agencies overseeing the self-driving car testing acknowledge that they do not currently monitor, or have any process for checking, exactly what data the Chinese vehicles are collecting and what happens to the data after it is collected. Nor do they have any additional rules or policies in place for oversight of Chinese self-driving cars versus the cars in the program operated by American or European companies. "It is literally the wild, Wild West here," said Craig Singleton, director of the China program at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a conservative-leaning national security think tank. "There's no one in charge."
What do you think (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:1, Offtopic)
False, they're not at all the first see the reference links in my other reply. Not sure about that forced data sharing. We should have the same rules, if that's true .. it sounds fishy though. We'll have war eventually if we keep putting non-reciprocating rules against them. Both sides will keep escalating the response to imagined threats and xenophobia. We need to think how to get out of becoming worse and worse enemies and how to be friends while not being pansies either.
Re: What do you think (Score:1, Troll)
Re:What do you think (Score:5, Interesting)
Citation? I couldn't find any evidence of that being true.
In fact Musk asked to be allowed to export self driving data from China back to the US, which had to be approved on security grounds, i.e. the same concerns that the US has. He was granted the right to do it.
Request: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/bus... [bbc.co.uk]
Granted: https://www.reuters.com/world/... [reuters.com]
It's doubtful that Chinese manufacturers would be interested in Tesla's data anyway. They have all decided to use lidar, rather than Tesla's janky vision-only system. They got the size and cost of lidar sensors down far faster than Musk thought they would.
Re: (Score:2)
Outside of Tesla, these are all the companies that are allowed in China to run FSD. Nio, BYD, Changan Auto, GAC, SAIC, BAIC BluePark, China FAW Group, SAIC Hongyan, and Yutong Bus. WHich of these are you going to claim is a western company? [engear.tv]
Now, which part of THIS article are you choosing to ignore? Here, let me clue you in:
Since 2017, self-driving cars owned by Chinese companies have traversed 1.8 million miles of California alone, according to a Fortune analysis of the state's Department of Motor Vehicles data.
So, Chinese companies have been allowed to FSD in California for the last 5 years. Oh, that was WITHOUT needing to keep the data in America.
It's doubtful that Chinese manufacturers would be interested in Tesla's data anyway. They have all decided to use lidar, rather than Tesla's janky vision-only system. They got the size and cost of lidar sensors down far faster than Musk thought they would.
Obviously, you are not a
Re: What do you think (Score:2)
Re:What do you think (Score:4, Informative)
Nothing, cause they already do that. References:
GM: https://www.momenta.cn/en/arti... [momenta.cn]
Tesla: https://www.reuters.com/busine... [reuters.com]
Ford: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/3... [cnbc.com]
Waymo: https://www.iotworldtoday.com/... [iotworldtoday.com]
Benz (not American, but whatever): https://cnevpost.com/2023/12/1... [cnevpost.com]
Etc. You can google others.
Stop perpetuating a xenophobia cycle that will lead to war eventually if not quelled.
Re:What do you think (Score:4, Insightful)
Beat me to it. I couldn't give a toss whether some random guy in Chendgu has video footage showing that I'm lazy about cutting my lawn, all of that pales into insignificance compared to Google, Fecebook, and others vaccuuming up every bit of data they can get on me and selling it to anyone who turns up, as well as using it against me themselves at every opportunity.
That doesn't get as many clicks as yet another yellow-peril-were-all-gonna-die headline though.
Not the best way to spy (Score:3)
we really should look at this from national security point of view
What national security secrets do you store in full view of public roads, especially in an age where everyone is carrying a high resolution camera?
Even if there were, if the Chinese or any government, wanted to collect data like this it would be a lot better to hide the cameras on ordinary cars and that way you could drive back and forth far more regularly without drawing any attention. A Google-style mapping car is going to draw a lot of attention if it is seen passing by a military base or government
Re: Not the best way to spy (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Not the best way to spy (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
That is BS. Obviously, this data cannot be successfully hidden. Also obviously, the US will have just as detailed maps on China. But unless you fear a ground-war with China, this is pretty irrelevant. In fact, if China wants to sell self-driving cars in the US, they will have to do this for purely civilian reasons.
CFIUS is ran by retards (Score:1)
Maybe CFIUS ought to go back on the drawing boards for American Security seems now vanquished in face of those idiot bureaucrats!
TikTok is also another fail, should have been banned before it started to get over millions in country.
Re: (Score:1)
They are preparing for that war because of people like you who want to start one. Ever thought of that? US car companies have been collecting FSD data in China since at least 2018 that anyone can find with a simple Google search that you refuse to even do. What should China do, when people are so xenophobic of them they won't even confirm basic prejudices are false?
Re:Surprised??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Surely China's neighbors must love them, as they know all about China. Especially these neighbors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Re: Surprised??? (Score:2, Flamebait)
Miles don't matter (Score:2)
The number of relevant scenarios matters. Unless those miles are representative of meaningful scenarios - who cares? I'd also wager the vast majority of those miles are on different versions of the software or data files, meaning that there is very little confidence established in any particular technology (other than perhaps the hardware itself, as that's likely to have far fewer iterations).
Put another way: You. can't. test. in. safety (or functionality). Testing can at best give you confidence bands ab
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All is well, American fathers. Put on your cargo shorts and flip flops and Metallica shirts and sleeeeeeeep.
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You do not need to make self-driving cars "safe". No other means of transportation is "safe". You just need to have it be "safe enough". Any good engineer knows that.
Does it really matter? (Score:1)
Are other companies doing the same thing? Are they going to able to get the data from other sources. Can they just use satellites with similar precision?
Don't Worry! (Score:4, Funny)
They're just looking for farmland, oil fields and companies that still employ Americans. As long as the buildings are overlooking military bases.
Thinking about this specific situation (Score:4, Insightful)
What information are these cars gathering that isn't already accessible through various public databases of wifi hotspots, Google Street View, etc. etc.?
Re:Thinking about this specific situation (Score:5, Insightful)
They will be gathering finer precision and higher definition.
Re:Thinking about this specific situation (Score:4, Interesting)
What information are these cars gathering that isn't already accessible through various public databases of wifi hotspots, Google Street View, etc. etc.?
More to the point, what information are these cars gathering that isn't already accessible by outfitting a car with a boatload of sensors and having a human driving it around?
I mean it's worth thinking through the potential risks because that kind of info is typically not collected to that level of granularity, but I'm not sure I see the particular threat here.
The more interesting story here is that China, just like they did with solar panels, is investing a boatload of money (probably with government assistance) in an emerging technology with hopes of dominating the industry. Just look at the names of the companies: WeRide, Apollo, AutoX, Pony.ai, and DiDi Research America. Those are intelligence gathering outfits, they're companies intended to compete in the American marketplace.
Re: Thinking about this specific situation (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Companies like Google will quickly identify and put a stop to you downloading their entire imaging data wholesale. Then there's a question of whether that data is original, or accurate enough to use. It could very well be poisoned (think like GPS used to be).
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If they gather their own data they don't depend on others who suddenly may decide not to sell it to them anymore. It's a business decision.
China knows more (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
And, eventually, we'll depend on this.
There's no one "at the wheel" of our government (Score:1, Troll)
To whom would we even go to get eyes on this problem -- or even to know that it is or isn't a problem? Our federal government is apparently run by a private committee of insiders who are fighting for their political lives. California government is under the control of a single party, so there is no one to call anyone to account. There is no individual who is willing to step up and take responsibility, it is all very diffused.
When any organization gets too large to be accountable, then one has to either brea
Re: (Score:2)
Which one is the small government party again?
Re: (Score:2)
Which one is the small government party again?
Certainly not the one running California.
You guys are Xenophobes (Score:2, Informative)
All the American car companies are already doing this in China (see my above reply to "migos" comment for references), so stop being xenophobic and work for a better planet for all humans.
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
It seems you haven't noticed that life is a competition for resources.
This is a complete and total fuck-up (Score:2)
2. Heads should roll because of this
Re: This is a complete and total fuck-up (Score:2)
Yeah! They should've just used Google street view! What a waste of money!
Re: (Score:2)
Some years ago when there were more and more intersection cameras and other surveillance cameras going up, people who were OK with all that were asked by me how they'd feel about cameras everywhere, including in their houses. I was shouted down as a crackpot. Yet where are we now? Cameras and microphones in your houses, in your TV, sometimes your refrigerator, so-called 'smart speakers' that listen all the time, and so on. It's like
Re:American vloggers have traveled all over China (Score:5, Informative)
Their movements are highly controlled and they are monitored at all times.
Think you're seeing something else?
Do you believe everything you see on Youtube?
Re: American vloggers have traveled all over China (Score:2)
You're wrong. It's as simple as that.
You're projecting what you are living under onto China.
Re: (Score:2)
This is simply not true. I've been to China, I wasn't highly controlled or monitored at all times, and I took plenty of photos and videos. I saw plenty of bad stuff too, poverty, poor hygiene standards in places, mistreatment of animals. Also rode their high speed rail and went to Disney Land. Like any country there is good and bad.
Most of the time the level of "monitoring" is similar to the UK. Cameras everywhere, including on all major roads, with facial recognition. Where it exceeds the UK is internet st
Re: (Score:1)
Their movements are highly controlled and they are monitored at all times.
I think you're confusing China with North Korea.
Re: (Score:2)
What makes Americans so easily scared these days?
Freedom.
something seems off (Score:2)
so china should allow american car companies to map their streets, right?
Pathetic (Score:3, Informative)
You guys and your yellow peril. The level is xenophobia and sinophobia is off the charts in this story.
Re: (Score:1)
Right. I especially like how in China elementary school children have "plays" where they chant about the evil America and stab bayonets in to American soldier mannequins.
Or if you want off-the-chart racism go visit and listen to what they call you thinking you can't understand them.
Or the attacks on American foreigners by Chinese citizens. Quietly hushed of course because China really wants those tourism dollars even though nobody in their right mind would go there and risk being put in prison for a Faceboo
Re: (Score:1)
yeah, the story is probably your normal paid bs, but this is more about business than anything else. BNY and others are sizing up to be a serious threat to western car companies.
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BYD
Who do you trust - US or China? (Score:2, Interesting)
So now the question is which country's courts do you trust more. USA is not having a good run with Roe vs Wade being overturned, a forme
have they lost sight of the actual issue? (Score:2)
exactly what data [so and so is] collecting and what happens to the data after it is collected.
Isn't this the bigger issue, if the American citizen is top priority? People are all worried about TikTok or American companies data vacuuming, but isn't privacy the real issue here? Or is it just that US officials don't like their monopoly on panopticon?
All countries should pass data localization laws that the data of the country has to sit in a server which is under the jurisdiction of the legal system of that country because neither US nor China can be trusted.
The EU and California lead on that front. Congress should pass a comprehensive data privacy bill (maybe like the California Consumer Privacy Act?)
Still going on about that balloon? (Score:1)
That was just a weather balloon that had gone off course. It can't do anything for spying the satellites aren't already doing.
You could see the odd weather event that made it go off course.
The analysis can be found here: https://www.moonofalabama.org/... [moonofalabama.org]
Then when people started to get hyped up over an artificial fuss the government decided to start acting all worried and shoot it down.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think any spy satellite can get the resolution that you can get from a balloon-mounted sensor suite.
That said, I don't see what you would get from it that would have any value that you couldn't get from a spy satellite. Unless you are trying to win the blue ribbion at the Science Fair or something.
Don't forget... (Score:2)
...the 1.1 million Chinese tourists coming each year making photos all around and saving them in their Chinese cloud.
Not to mention the 2.5 million Chinese immigrants.
Paranoia is really bad for you.
Cars are dangerous (Score:2)
Imagine thousands of hacked self driving cars creating mayhem in time of war, or even a cold war or as an act of terrorism.
Tesla works well, sells well in China (Score:2)
I don't know if anyone recalls that when Tesla first started delivering cars in China, the government felt obliged to restrict them from a number of sites because of their cameras. Basically they viewed them as spy drones back then. They seemed to have worked that out. Not only is the Model Y the best selling BEV in China with BYD as a highly-potent competitor, the government itself is buying them.
Also it is pretty clear that Tesla and others have reasonably accurate map data of China. If not, GPS
Balloon was unlicensed (Score:2)
I smell a rat here ... (Score:2)
Remember how TikTok got into Donald Trump's crosshairs shortly after he had dinner with Mark Zuckerberg?
I bet it is a similar playbook being followed here again. Someone interested is fuelling mistrust of Chinese car companies to provoke a cry of outrage with the goal of sweeping them from the US market. And some gullible congresscritter will take up the issue and propose a ban which will easily find a majority in today's political climate - problem solved.
Just like... (Score:2)