Here's What Happens When You Give People Free Money (wired.com) 293
OpenResearch, a lab funded by OpenAI CEO Sam Altman, has released initial findings from a comprehensive study on unconditional cash transfers. The experiment, conducted from 2020 to 2023, provided $1,000 monthly to 1,000 low-income Americans across Illinois and Texas. Results showed recipients primarily used the funds for basic needs and increased spending on healthcare and leisure activities.
While the cash boost led to some positive outcomes, including increased business startups among Black recipients and women, it did not significantly improve long-term financial health or physical well-being. The study also noted a reduction in work hours among participants, with earnings dropping by at least 12 cents for every dollar received.
While the cash boost led to some positive outcomes, including increased business startups among Black recipients and women, it did not significantly improve long-term financial health or physical well-being. The study also noted a reduction in work hours among participants, with earnings dropping by at least 12 cents for every dollar received.
Here's one thing that didn't happen... (Score:4, Insightful)
...those people receiving this free money have no idea how to make more of it.
Re: Here's one thing that didn't happen... (Score:3, Insightful)
This.
Give a person a fish and they are fed for a day ....
Re: Here's one thing that didn't happen... (Score:4, Funny)
Give a person a fish and they are fed for a day ....
Tell the world about giving someone a fish and the Internet explains how you did it wrong.
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Teach a man to fish, and he'll be unemployed as soon as we build an AI-controlled fleet of fishing drones.
And we'll all eat forever.
This old adage may need some updating.
Re: Here's one thing that didn't happen... (Score:5, Funny)
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Here's one thing that didn't happen... (Score:5, Interesting)
What a shocker. You give a poor person money and they use it to pay bills.
Let's check in on the millionaire who became homeless as a social experiment to see just how easy it is to be a millionaire again.
https://www.ladbible.com/lifes... [ladbible.com]
Turns out not that easy and he had to stop because of his failing health.
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Who ever thought it should be "easy" to become a millionaire?
Now, to go from poverty to being able to pay rent and buy groceries, that's an attainable goal. I know first hand, I went from free school lunches, to owning a home in a nice neighborhood. Was it handouts that got me there? No, just hard work.
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What do you the the free school meals were if not handouts?
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Too much work is destroying the atmosphere. That's a good one. Creative. You know, there are ways to reduce atmospheric destruction, and work, at the same time.
The poor woman with the addiction...yeah, we know. We worked with her for a long time. We help people overcome addictions, we know all about it. You can't force people to want to be free of their addictions, and throwing money at them doesn't help.
There is not enough "rich people money" to give everyone UBI. The math doesn't work.
For purposes of our
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Let's check in on the millionaire who became homeless as a social experiment to see just how easy it is to be a millionaire again.
I'd never heard of this guy till you mentioned him, and after watching his followup video [youtube.com] I gotta say your take is a bit reductive.
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Almost as if people are too scared to give it a try.
Re: Here's one thing that didn't happen... (Score:2)
Here's one thing that DID happen... (Score:3)
But we see it often, typically first generation immigrants that arrive only with the clothes on their back and often don't even know a single person who lives here.
Almost no first generation immigrants arrive without knowing a single person here. This is a myth.
The ones who do arrive with nothing and not knowing anyone living here are supported by refugee relief programs (some governmental, but many of them church based). This demonstrated the exact opposite of what you assert: in fact, they don't end up homeless because they have support. A few selected examples:
https://www.acf.hhs.gov/orr/pr... [hhs.gov]
https://refugeerights.org/ [refugeerights.org]
https://www.acf.hhs.gov/orr [hhs.gov]
https://www. [iafr.org]
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None of the links you provided suggest it is a myth, rather you simply provided references for refugee programs. Most immigrants aren't refugees.
Immigrants who aren't refugees don't arrive "with only the clothes on their back and often don't even know a single person who lives here."
You are referring to refugees when you specify that.
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I'd imagine that it's kinda tough to recruit millionaires for a study where they need to live like they're poor for a year.
His experiment was fundamentally flawed. (Score:2)
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Wow, of the more than 1 million immigrants *per year* to the US, a finite number greater than zero are successful? Stop the presses! *facepalm*
Nobody is saying that everything comes down to your situation. But one's setting in life is like the difficulty setting on a video game. You might be playing the game on the easiest "Beginner" that almost everyone can beat. Or you might be playing it on Nightmare Hell Mode that almost nobody will beat.
Some people will play on Beginner and still lose, whether thro
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What an on point metaphor.
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Yes, and?
This guy put his game on nightmare mode and lost. That's exactly my point. Thank you for agreeing with me.
An immigrant coming here with nothing but motivation and the support of their community can and often do make it. Because they are willing to rely on others and apply every options at their limited disposal they are on hard mode. Many make it.
We are in agreement. Was that your intent? To agree with me?
Re:Here's one thing that didn't happen... (Score:5, Interesting)
His experiment was lame. He gave up his entire network and didn't start a business in the field he was most familiar with.
Giving up his network and staying away from the field he has already acquired a lot of knowledge seem essential to make it any kind of a reasonable experiment. The goal is to find out how hard it is for someone who is intelligent and capable to lift themselves up without those advantages.
If you want to see what happens when you equip a moderately capable person with an extensive network and specialist training, that's an experiment that has been replicated many times, by graduates of elite universities. The data on that is rock solid, and it shows that a very large percentage of people in that situation rapidly become multi-millionaires.
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There is a reason why networking is so important to having a thriving career. Who you know matters followed closely by what you know.
Which is exactly why people who are born into families that have all those connections have a massive advantage over people who are genuinely lifting themselves by their bootstraps. Consider Bill Gates. Not only born a millionaire, but a well-connected billionaire. Mother on corporate boards with and on friendly terms with the chairman of IBM, sent to a private school with other elites, etc. Or Donald Trump who outright inherited his empire (he lies about it, of course, or leans on technicalities like that
Re:Here's one thing that didn't happen... (Score:4, Insightful)
...those people receiving this free money have no idea how to make more of it.
I guess you pissed someone off. Because what you wrote was true. A lot of people have no idea how to manage money.
It is welfare by a different name, apparently for people that are working, and "it did not significantly improve long-term financial health or physical well-being. The study also noted a reduction in work hours among participants..."
Which is not surprising. Also FTA: "The increased debt brought down participants’ net worth over the three years. Combined with little change in credit access, bankruptcies, and foreclosures, researchers concluded that “the transfer did not improve participant’s long-run financial position.” People did put more money into savings and initially felt better about their financial situation. But they also slightly cut back on work and let the free cash fill in the gap." Now say, if I were in a three year program that gave me 1Kilobuck per month - a total of 36 thousand dollars, every cent would go in the bank, and not be touched. Of course, I'm not in their financial position, but it sounds like many were in section 8 housing, and receiving other assistance, and were getting by before getting the money.
Waiting for the "troll mods"
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Interesting. Because of the subject line ("Here's one thing that didn't happen...") I read the rest of the post ("...those people receiving this free money have no idea how to make more of it.") with a big "negate" in front of it, and came to the opposite conclusion as to what the post meant as you (apparently) did.
The moderators of the post may have done the same thing.
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Interesting. Because of the subject line ("Here's one thing that didn't happen...") I read the rest of the post ("...those people receiving this free money have no idea how to make more of it.") with a big "negate" in front of it, and came to the opposite conclusion as to what the post meant as you (apparently) did. The moderators of the post may have done the same thing.
I'd never make the claim that all poor people are poor because they deserve it. Most poverty comes from a multitude of reasons. Like lack of drive, Drug use, the trap of single motherhood, some times laziness, some times shitty luck. And yes, many are terrible at handling money.
It does trigger many people if we suggest that there are multiple reasons that some people fall off the bottom rung of the ladder. I'm convinced that we'll never make inroads on the issue unless we stop with the "society is bad a
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Wait, what? It's all the mother's fault? The dad has nothing to do with this? Stop the presses! Someone needs to know about these miraculous births without a father.
Re:Here's one thing that didn't happen... (Score:5, Insightful)
Single motherhood is a real problem, and those children are victims of their mother's decisions
Wait, what? It's all the mother's fault? The dad has nothing to do with this? Stop the presses! Someone needs to know about these miraculous births without a father.
I think the implication is that they chose the father poorly, and in situations where that is the case, it goes without saying that it is also the father's fault.
The real problem is that they're ignoring situations where the relationship just didn't work out, where the father dies, where the father becomes an addict and self destructs, where the woman is gay and living in a state/country that doesn't support her not being single, and any number of other life circumstances that may have nothing to do with anyone's poor decisions.
It also ignores the harsh reality that being with the wrong person for the sake of a child can actually be way worse for the child than being a single parent, particularly in situations involving abuse or addiction or both.
Basically, the people saying things like this have never actually spent any significant amount of time getting to know a single parent and learning about their situation. Their high-and-mighty moralistic attitude is based entirely on theory that is completely detached from reality, and their reasoning completely falls apart under more careful scrutiny.
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The problem with ladders is that the Grim Reaper always climbs as high as anyone can. Yeah, you might be living large and in the total lap of luxury for a while, but the Grim Reaper will always climb up to get you. Some people feel that always climbing the ladder is not the best use of their limited time, and are content being on the lower rungs.
But so many complain. If they are happy while they are where they are at - that's great. That is the drive thing I wrote about. It's like a friend of the wife's who is educated as a pharmacist, yet works as a waitress, and gets section 8 housing assistance, free cell phone and laptop, and greatly reduced internet access. Her life and her choices. She is actually a rather brilliant and intelligent woman, just very little drive.
Of course we all die. Both this woman and myself. As noted, if she is happy, m
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I guess you pissed someone off. Because what you wrote was true.
What he wrote was too ambiguous to make any claims which could be proven true or false, but I think he is clearly implying that giving these individuals $1k per month would lower the chances that they would find ways to increase their income when compared to the control group. If that is what he is claiming, he is wrong. These individuals were more likely to receive education, job training, and start businesses.
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I guess you pissed someone off. Because what you wrote was true.
What he wrote was too ambiguous to make any claims which could be proven true or false, but I think he is clearly implying that giving these individuals $1k per month would lower the chances that they would find ways to increase their income when compared to the control group. If that is what he is claiming, he is wrong. These individuals were more likely to receive education, job training, and start businesses.
Their net worth was brought down by the end of the experiment. That is very interesting. Many went more into debt.
So would we not expect that by getting education, job training and starting a business would make their net worth be higher rather than lower. With an education, they could get work with higher renumeration, Job training the same.
Starting a business - Speaking of vague, they gave some percentages of being more likely to start a business by "race", with so called "blacks" being 9 percent m
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At $1000 per month, that's a nice supplement to help pay the bills, but it doesn't provide enough to invest with the cost of living being as high as it is. Many people with limited financial resources but who understand how things work would also have been saving money, rather than investing it to "make more money". Many people view the stock market as gambling, so, would you take the $1000 per month and just go to the casino to risk it? Some people would, most would look for a better use for the mone
Re:Here's one thing that didn't happen... (Score:5, Informative)
The article literally says that it led to an increased number of startups among black people and women. So the only way you can reach that conclusion is if you declare that "black people and women are incapable of running a startup business", which is just plain unadulterated racism and sexism.
On average there was a small (12%) reduction in working hours - however, note that this doesn't mean (and is unlikely to mean) the same people launching more startups. But this has been studied in more detail in some of the (many) other experiments on this topic, and usually the people who reduce working hours do so to do things like take care of children, care for sick loved ones, etc - things that one would hardly consider socially detrimental.
Re:Here's one thing that didn't happen... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a shame the money didn't come with some advice. We know from other experiments with things like start-up loans that it can work very well for that. It does say some of them used the money to start businesses.
I suspect though that the main issue was more immediate problems that needed addressing, and which provided benefits that were not measured. For example, reducing work hours to provide better childcare and opportunities for their kids. Paying off debts, e.g. medical.
Look at the dates too. 2020 was the pandemic, up to 2023 when inflation was coming back down. How much worse would things have been for them if it wasn't for that money?
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It's a shame the money didn't come with some advice.
If it came with advice and other services it likely wouldn't have been a very good study of the effect of UBI, because it's unlikely everyone receiving UBI would also get those extra services. This study's purpose appears to be understanding how UBI would effect people if done on a larger scale so it makes sense that they limited their involvement to just giving them the money.
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Isn't that what we used to have public information campaigns for?
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Look at the dates too. 2020 was the pandemic, up to 2023 when inflation was coming back down.
By saying "inflation was coming back down", you do mean "not rising as fast", right? Inflation [usinflatio...ulator.com] is still alive and well at 3%. We haven't seen any deflation since April 2015.
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It's not even in the article, bu tint he summary - "including increased business startups among Black recipients and women". So if starting businesses isn't the way to make more money, what exactly is? Maybe it could have included a seminar on how to inherit money from rich relatives I guess.
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Do you make money? Did you do this by starting a business? You can't imagine any other way to make money? (hint: learn a valuable skill that can translate to a high-paying job).
Participants were also 14% more likely to have pursued education or job training over course of the study. So yes, they did take approaches to increase income other than just starting businesses.
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I can imagine other ways to make money, but you obviously can't. Starting a business is one way to make more money. You claimed that they had no idea how to make more money, so I guess to you, starting a business is not a way to make money? The only way to make more money is to get a job? Maybe it is you who lack imagination, not me.
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...those people receiving this free money have no idea how to make more of it.
"Some began considering or pursuing startups. By year three of the payments, 'Black recipients were 9 percentage points more likely to report starting or helping to start a business than control participants, and women were 5 percentage points more likely,” according to one of the studies'."
Sounds like at least some of them had ideas of how to make more of it.
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What study was banned? By who? When?
You're hilarious.
Re: That's not what the studies show (Score:2)
That's why here in America our right wing party has started banning these studies
How?
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State laws against guaranteed income experiments using public funds:
https://www.urban.org/urban-wi... [urban.org]
https://www.scottsantens.com/b... [scottsantens.com]
Also in order to become a Project 2025-certified Trump crony, applicants must pass a test where their views on different issues are scored, and supporting UBI lowers their score.
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Trump's "Agenda 47" includes most of the talking points from Project 2025. Trump is literally saying he will implement most of Project 2025 if he gets elected.
That's not a boogeyman. That's a candidate saying the quiet part out loud because he and the GOP are convinced they have enough supporters who agree with it.
Trump is the one pushing it. The left is just reacting to him pushing it.
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Trump's "Agenda 47" includes most of the talking points from Project 2025. Trump is literally saying he will implement most of Project 2025 if he gets elected.
That's not a boogeyman. That's a candidate saying the quiet part out loud because he and the GOP are convinced they have enough supporters who agree with it.
Trump is the one pushing it. The left is just reacting to him pushing it.
Agenda 47 is the Trump official policy plan. Project 2025 is the Heritage Foundation wish list. They are not the same thing regardless of any things they may agree on. As reported by the WSJ, Trump said the exact opposite of what you are alleging: https://www.wsj.com/politics/e... [wsj.com]
"As former President Donald Trump prepares to accept the Republican nomination, he has suggested he has no interest in using the trove of planning work assembled by Project 2025 and other outside groups that have spent years pre
Many More Studdies (Score:5, Informative)
Don't rely on just the latest one.
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Broadly speaking, I think the studies and meta-analysis have concluded that giving a small portion of the population means-tested short term modest amount of cash benefit tends to have good outcomes. About the only actionable policy change compared to status quo is that perhaps you don't need to micromanage that sort of benefit. That instead of forcing them to spend it one way or another or making sure the benefit stops the second they 'shouldn't have it' anymore, just give the cash value of the benefit fo
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In some studies in Africa people used the money to get for example a better roof.
I think the outcome is pretty hard to study, because more money to a single mother might mean that she can spend more time with the kid, which means that the kid has better chance to succeed in life. But if you study the income of the mother, there is only negative change as she works less, because she can.
But I really think we should just forget UBI and instead focus on UBS. Free education, healthcare for everyone. Free housin
I might. (Score:3)
I often use a line during job interviews, "I'd work with computers for free if I didn't have bills to pay." The problem is, I would have little incentive to excel; indeed, success or failure in my professional activities would be of little import; either way, I draw my pay.
Something incredible must be done to address the issue of poverty if society is to get any meaningful return from the effort. I'm not sure a UBI (or even UBS) are the answer, but some mechanism to give a segment of society a "free rid
Re:Many More Studdies (Score:4, Informative)
There is something wonky about checking after three years and then claiming that it does not improve their long term financial health. Three years is not long term.
Pilgrims (Score:5, Interesting)
Early settlers to this continent found this out as well. Early Pilgrims tried to do shared work and results for the first couple of years. Only after they allocated land to each person and they kept what they grew did production increase enough to survive.
That isn't to say that the whole business C-Suite versus everyone else hasn't gotten way out of whack.
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Lol this is the socialism=bad parable that talk radio likes to read before Thanksgiving.
Early pilgrims were morons who kept getting scammed and kicked out of places for their dumb religious practices.
Religious zealots running from religious zealots. (Score:2)
Those zany Christians and their fatwas. . .
Oh, wait, that's not them? Okay they're jihad to take the Holy Land . . .
Oh, they call it a Crusade? Hey, okay . . . and just so's I don't get modded offtopic, what exactly does ANY of this have to do with giving people money (agreed, yet another flawed study resulting in flawed data and flawed conclusions)? Just thought I'd ask, long as I'm here.
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Nonsense. The first settlers wondered why so much of the environment was edible. They could not understand that the Indians cared for their environment with a kind of "environment agriculture".
(Source: the book 1491 [wikipedia.org])
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Everybody gets free money. (Score:2, Flamebait)
Upgrade to Ramen Pride. (Score:5, Informative)
"OpenResearch found that when it gave some of the poorest Americans $1,000 a month for three years with no strings attached, they put much of the money toward basic needs such as food, housing, and transportation. But what amounted to $36,000 wasn’t enough to significantly improve their physical well-being or long-term financial health, researchers concluded."
So, to summarize, giving broke Americans slightly less than they would earn working a full-time minimum-wage job in did not make them independently wealthy. If they had paid me just one-hundredth of that money, I could have told them what that, without waiting three years.
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Note that commonly the studies highlight scenarios where they take advantage of the relief to get out of the wrong end of a runaway financial problem.
Having a bit of persistent credit card debt balloons to an untenable debt. A short term boost has them dig out.
Stuck continuously working two jobs to get buy without having time to get some courses to get ahead, they get a break from the second job to take some evening classes and get a bit ahead.
However, note the 'get a bit ahead' implies *someone* to get ah
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....If they had paid me just one-hundredth of that money, I could have told them what that, without waiting three years.
Is $36,000 just too little money to help a family?
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Give me free money and it goes to hookers and blow (Score:2)
Hookers and blow count as leisure, right?
Anyway, the first click on the link shows this is advocacy, not study.
Let's look at some of the eligibility requiremnets
They later say Section 8 disqualifies too. Oh, yeah, leaving out people getting major forms of welfare couldn't bias things at all, could it?
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Hookers and blow count as leisure, right?
So is buying lottery tickets.
As it goes on reservations.... (Score:3)
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You have no idea how much money some of them are getting.
My NA nieces were getting $12k/month "per cap" (free money) each in 1998. As teenagers.
What did they do with their lives? One is still a drug addict. And oh wait, so is the other.
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You have no idea how much money some of them are getting.
My NA nieces were getting $12k/month "per cap" (free money) each in 1998. As teenagers.
What did they do with their lives? One is still a drug addict. And oh wait, so is the other.
..which is more-or-less what would happen to our society after a couple generations of people didn't have to work to earn a living. I'd also predict that over time there'd be mass protests of The Entitled to get even more free money every month. Oh and by the way I'm talking about ALL people not just Native Americans.
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What are you even talking about? The above poster isnt talking about "looking down" on anyone. They're very clearly stating that the problems groups like Native Americans face are much more complex than something that can be solved just by handing out a small amount of cash.
Earnings dropped? (Score:5, Insightful)
>>The study also noted a reduction in work hours among participants, with earnings dropping by at least 12 cents for every dollar received.
So if you give people extra money they cut back on their side gigs and spend more time with their family? Shocking!
We've already done this (Score:3)
They basically tell the people "We're going to track how responsibly you spend free money we're giving you," what the hell do you think they're going to do.
You ever hear of tribal casino payouts. It typically pays down to 1/4 genetically native american and it's several thousand per month for most tribes. What do we get? A lot of responsible people with extra spending money and A LOT of deadbeats who just pool their money, have a roommate, and never work, contributing nothing to society from a production standpoint. We have decades of data to use but they refuse because they don't like the results.
money for all (Score:3)
I suggest giving everyone $1 million and being done with it.
Of course, in a few months there will be enough inflation and drop in productivity to get us right back where we started from.
Earning vs free (Score:3)
Anyone who has worked HARD for their money can tell you about the value of saving up vs spending it.
There has been numerous studies of lottery winners how they got broke within 2 years of winning big because of their newfound riches and spending habits. If you didn't make it to the big cash, there's a reason for it - of course you could be the exception and had a series of unfortunate events in your life, but you're not the rule, you're the exception.
The thing is, if you teach your kids to value hard work and how they get rewarded for it, like teaching your kids to mow the lawn, do chores, and they earn their pay, the brains reward system will be programmed with it and they will have a much easier time adapting to the real world out there, and find ways to earn money. It's also more rewarding for them to share their spoils with others because they know they worked for it. They can literally feel how expensive things really is.
If you were given the cash, and you never truly worked hard for anything, then money has very little value. You want it, sure - but you don't want to put the effort in when you can get it so easily. If you're not used to good financial sense, it's also too easy to "reward" yourself with a little extra at the end of the day, and that little extra accumulates over time and shortly it will be all gone.
But if you worked hard for it, you will soon know the value of that money and it's not so easy to accumulate. When you save up (and invest too) you'll be more mindful of what you purchase, how you invest, and how you spend.
I've come to learn over time that it's often not about how much you earn, it's how you spend, and how much you spend. I'm not super rich, but people that are my friends and people that I know often ask me, how come you always have so much? You literally have half the salary I have and yet your house, car, phones, hobby stuff is paid off while I earn twice as much and I am always up to my ears in debt? How Is that even possible? Do you have side gigs?
Nope - the answer might surprise you, I purchase second hand, I don't buy the latest and greatest - but I may wait 6 or more months, save up till I can afford it, and by that time the price has gone down, since I bought it with cash - I saved on interest and the price even went down. Add to the fact I bought it second hand. And the price can be reduced by over 50 percent of the cost you'd be spending on buying it on release date.
If you do this with everything, your mind will be constructed differently, you'll be richer, have zero debt, and you will know the true value of money.
It's no surprise gamblers, addicts, and people who got to quick cash by either dumb luck or rich parents will be no better off after a while, because they were never trained in how to handle it.
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Bull. Serious sectors of the population work hard, and two and three jobs, and can't get ahead, because a) outright racism in the school systems means the kids don't learn crap [1], and b) racism and classism [2].
You say you were given money by your folks. A hell of a lot of people weren't. I remember 2013, when that lying PoS Ryan had his hissyfit, and shut down the US government for 2 weeks[3]. The Democrats had a rally outside Congress in the middle of that, and one of the speakers was a black guy who wa
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Bull. Serious sectors of the population work hard, and two and three jobs, and can't get ahead, because a) outright racism in the school systems means the kids don't learn crap [1], and b) racism and classism [2].
To be fair, I'm pretty sure most of the kids don't learn crap anyway, regardless of race or class. The people with money can just afford to buy their way into college and fake it 'til they make it.
The Democrats had a rally outside Congress in the middle of that, and one of the speakers was a black guy who was a 2nd chef at the African-American Museum. They outsourced the food, and he was getting paid so little that there were days when he had to decide whether to feed his 16 yr old, living with him, or give him money to go to school. Tell us all how he should get rich.
Move out of D.C.?
If everyone who found that the cost of living made it unaffordable to live and work in a city moved away, there wouldn't be enough people to keep the businesses open, and businesses would start offering higher and higher wages to steal people, and eventually people would start moving back in, bec
A pittance (Score:2)
Re:A pittance (Score:4, Insightful)
If you've ever been poor - I have not, but I've been in debt in a dead end job so I have at least some clue - when you have no hope of climbing out you don't see the point in trying.
A little money doesn't solve the long-term issue, that their potential income is insufficient to provide a reliable and reasonably comfortable lifestyle. When the test period is over, I'd expect almost everyone in a program like this to start sliding financially right back to where they started.
Free Education INSTEAD!!! (Score:3)
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Education, decent diet, and access to an appropriate peer group. There is plenty you learn outside of the classroom by being around the people who will be in the workplace with you and who have families in those workplaces already.
And of course enough money to dress appropriately, to be able to get to an interview, to have communications access like a phone, the Internet, and even a physical mailbox.
Education and diet are the first two big ones, though.
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"So, if the US invested in free education, "
There is no such thing as free education and I have the property tax bill to prove it. And besides, the US does have "free" education. I went to public schools, my daughter went to public school.
If you want "free" college education, then you need to pay for it as well and in a way that doesn't provide four years of unrestricted partying for some while those who go to trade school are actually working at something useful have to pay for the party crowd. Just like m
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UBI, Billionaires, bias (Score:2)
Billionaires' "research group" pays a small amount to implement UBI *wrong* to "prove" that it won't help, so please don't raise their taxes to do it right. Well, I'm just staggered at those results, don't know about you. lol.
Quality of life (Score:2)
Small wonder (Score:2)
Hungry people buy food, they're not going to get themselves a Nobel prize with $1000.
Re: First give free healthcare (Score:2)
Yeah, thatâ(TM)s the way to do it. Universal basic healthcare, food, housing access. Plus no one has ever really done it universally: it means every taxpayer has access to these, $200 food credits they can augment, basic healthcare they can augment with private insurance, a cell like tiny apartment available if the occupy it as primary residence, etc. The idea is to to not incentivize failure, or drugs but make things as this foundation people can use to go to school or anything. It follows the model o
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Sounds great. Who is going to do all the work?
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Giving people money so they can buy cool shoes does not seem like a good use of my tax money.
At least that way the money actually trickles up through the economy. Lafffer can suck it.
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I see UBI as kind of a sort of capitalist approach to socialism - "we think everyone needs certain basics, and the state should ensure they have them, but instead of housing, food vouchers, schools etc we'll just give them a certain about of money to spend".
I'm no economist... it might be inflationary if the UBI money is printed or borrowed, but if it's redistributed I'm less sure. Arguably only a (theoretical) system where everyone had exactly the same amount of wealth would allow the price mechanism in a
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The problem with I see with UBI is not that people will stop working, it is that some people will starve and die on the streets.
One often overlooked aspect of UBI is that it is indented to *replace* a lot of the welfare benefits. Housing, food, childcare, etc... Let's put aside medicaid for now, as it would be even worse. You get your "free money", which should be enough for you to survive, and it is done, no more help. It has the benefits of greatly simplifying the welfare system, as people won't have to j
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The problem with I see with UBI is not that people will stop working, it is that some people will starve and die on the streets.
One often overlooked aspect of UBI is that it is indented to *replace* a lot of the welfare benefits. Housing, food, childcare, etc... Let's put aside medicaid for now, as it would be even worse. You get your "free money", which should be enough for you to survive, and it is done, no more help. It has the benefits of greatly simplifying the welfare system, as people won't have to justify anything, and there is no need to have inspectors to make sure people don't ask for what they don't have the right for.
Problem is, while a UBI should be sufficient for people to live comfortably if they are good at budgeting (that's the point), many of the poorest people are not, and in many cases, it is the reason why they are poor in the first place. Without supervision, they will spend their UBI inappropriately, and may find themselves unable to pay for their basic necessities, and without a classical social safety net, they will just die.
As long as the UBI is enough to cover basic food and housing, I'd be surprised if someone found a way to burn enough money to truly go hungry on the streets, with the possible exception of someone spending huge amounts of money on drugs. I'm not sure what can be done for them other than involuntary commitment to rehab, followed by adequate step-down programs to help them stay clean. And that's basically an entirely separate problem.
That said, although people who abuse are more likely to become homeless, t
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1) There is almost certainly a very serious inflationary aspect when this money goes to everyone. Basic goods and services can become more expensive because everyone reliably has some "extra" cash to spend.
Yes, but...
The median and mean incomes in the US are roughly $40,000 and $60,000, respectively, so if we went with the idea of an "extra" $1000/mo., it would represent an income increase of 20-30%. Somewhere in that range—say, 25%—is how much we'd expect the price of consumer goods and services to increase. At the same time, the poverty line in the US is around $14,000/year right now, so $1000/mo. would represent an 85% increase in income (or even more for those in extreme poverty), which far ou
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Whether or not it is inflationary depends on how well the economy can adjust to the poor and working class having more money. Inflation is not caused just by increasing the money supply, it caused by increasing the money supply beyond what the economy can produce. The US's money supply increased 230% from 2000-2020 with only 53% inflation, because the economy was able to meet the demand. Only after Covid provided both a rapid acceleration in money supply growth (25% in 2020 & 12% in 2021) and a constric
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You mean, the greedy people out there will just raise prices, just because they feel they can get away with it. It's already been shown that when the profit per unit sold for the past three years has been going up, showing that greed is the reason for most of the inflation we have been seeing. Higher expenses driving higher prices is fair, but higher profits per unit just shows greed.
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What happens when there just aren't enough jobs? It's already starting:
https://www.kornferry.com/insi... [kornferry.com]
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UBI as an idea is good to offset the higher expenses that really hurts many people, but it isn't a replacement for having a good job or working. When you see a single bedroom apartment costing $2500/month plus utilities, plus the need to own a car to drive to/from work, with gas, insurance, and maintenance on top of that, someone fresh out of college without parents available to help pay the bills just couldn't afford that, even with a $40,000 per year job. So, UBI would really help deal with that issue.
If you're living in a place where a minimum apartment costs $2,500 per month, a $1,000 payment isn't a full basic income. The whole point of doing a UBI is that it should be enough to get by, which means it must be equivalent to a poverty-line wage. A proper UBI in some Bay Area counties would be over $8,000 per month.