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Justice Dept. Says TikTok Could Allow China To Influence Elections 84

Posted by msmash from the how-about-that dept.
The Justice Department has ramped up the case to ban TikTok, saying in a court filing Friday that allowing the app to continue operating in its current state could result in voter manipulation in elections. From a report: The filing was made in response to a TikTok lawsuit attempting to block the government's ban. The Justice Department warned that the app's algorithm and parent company ByteDance's alleged ties to the Chinese government could be used for a "secret manipulation" campaign.

"Among other things, it would allow a foreign government to illicitly interfere with our political system and political discourse, including our elections...if, for example, the Chinese government were to determine that the outcome of a particular American election was sufficiently important to Chinese interests," the filing said. Under a law passed in April, TikTok has until January 2025 to find a new owner or it will be banned in the U.S. The company is suing to have that law overturned, saying it violates the company's First Amendment rights. The Justice Department disputed those claims. "The statute is aimed at national-security concerns unique to TikTok's connection to a hostile foreign power, not at any suppression of protected speech," officials wrote.
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Justice Dept. Says TikTok Could Allow China To Influence Elections More

Justice Dept. Says TikTok Could Allow China To Influence Elections

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  • Why not? (Score:3)

    by avandesande ( 143899 ) on Monday July 29, 2024 @12:34PM (#64664264) Journal
    Google and Facebook do as well.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Powercntrl ( 458442 )

        Examples:

        It's pretty obvious that Musk has been using X as his own personal soapbox to promote Trump. They also certainly do censor voices they disagree with. [reddit.com] It probably wasn't your intent, but your examples are actually just ones of the pot calling the kettle black.

        BTW, I'm shadowbanned on X. [twitter.com]

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by Anonymous Coward

          Still bitching about Trump? Are you still lying and pretending he is going to nullify your marriage with your husband if elected?

          Anyway, TikTok would for sure promote the democrats because the Chinese government can do whatever they want with them so you should logically cheer for them to do so.

          BTW, I'm shadowbanned on X. [twitter.com]

          Go figure why with all the lies and propaganda you are spreading...

          With all the bitching you do, when are you going to leave Florida and go to New York in order to finally be happy?

          • Are you still lying and pretending he is going to nullify your marriage with your husband if elected?

            The voting record doesn't lie. [washingtonpost.com] Republican leaders by a large majority still oppose same-sex marriage. Trump's hands became dirty the moment he appointed far-right justices intent on achieving that end, regardless of what he may claim for his personal feelings on the issue. If Obergefell v. Hodges was overturned, much like what happened with Roe v. Wade, the issue of whether or not a same-sex marriage could be performed would return to the individual states. The Respect for Marriage Act does however, re

            • Twitter is an odd thing. "Microblogging", meaning you can't really post anything beyond a simplistic headline, or a "I'm going to lunch, back later". But that was "fixed" by stringing tweets together so that now you have long rants, big images, etc. It's not microblogging. It's just a place to go to post stuff.

      • LOL, Google bases search results on search history. Elon has himself to blame there! As a guy who's trying to use advertisers to make money, I doubt he's using noscript to stop Google tracking.

    • Guess China could use email, phone calls, airplane (air balloon?) with banner, advertisements in news papers, public statements, movies,... as well.
    • Missing the point, external companies like Fox ( australian owned) would rahter make more money off strife (read making news), and governments (.cn, .ru) would rather see us fighting each other... So we fail? Should we rather slip into a Authoritarian role to keep this from happening? That seems the current "logic" ... Deny science (ex: scalp NOAA), skip elections (as revealed the other night), Put Exec branch over judicial and legislative branches, Pick a favorite church... Does any one else see th

    • Google and Facebook do as well.

      Sure, and China and Russia use Facebook and Google and Twitter as weapons platforms. Of course Musk himself is a fascist pig and is doing their work for them as well.

      • Of course Musk himself is a fascist pig and is doing their work for them as well.

        Did you hear his latest rationale behind supporting a candidate who wants to end the so-called "EV mandate"? Musk believes that it will hurt his competitors more than it will hurt Tesla. Yeah Musk, I'm sure it's really going to hurt the manufacturers who can fall back on their line of hybrid and ICE vehicles more than a manufacturer that exclusively builds EVs. /s

        Once they drink the kool aid, they never think the leopards are going to eat their face.

        • From what I've heard, Musk set up a 'kool aid' stand and was giving it away for free for a long time now; apparently he's a long-time advocate of authoritarianism, and considering he's from South Aftrica, probably thinks apartheid was a good idea.
    • As we found out in Canada, China does not need to use Tik Tok to influence elections [wikipedia.org]. Apparently they go after the chinese immigrant population spreading disinformation on chinese language sites (presumably to keep it much less visible to the general population) and using undisclosed financial contributions - perhaps funneled through the same immigrant group to hide the source.

      There have also been reports of them influencing people who have family back in China whom they can threaten if they do not do as

    • No no no they are American and thus everything you read on them is 100% certified true! /s

      I was going to also say you forgot about Truth, but the only people on Truth are are already lobotomised and beyond influence anyway.

    • Google and Facebook do as well.

      And every single press organization in the US as well. The point isn't to target an organization simply because it could influence the election. The point is that China is a foreign adversary and that ByteDance is essentially legally required to do the bidding of the Chinese government. That's why the US doesn't ban Fox News, because Australia isn't an adversary and the Fox News bias isn't directed by a foreign government.

      Yes, there is the argument that Chinese companies and citizens don't have obey the Chi

    • That's a good point. There's the issue of buying elections, which is as old as... well, at least since WWII & the growth of the private, for profit PR industry (formerly known as propaganda but the Nazis gave it a bit of a bad name). Then there's the issue of who we allow to do the buying, rather than which platform they do the buying from, be it Xitter, Farcebook, Instagram, or Tiktok.

      So, I reckon we need to put under scrutiny, not so much individual platforms themselves, but who they're ALL selling
  • People are unbelievably stupid. What exactly is the "killer app" that thing does that makes people ignore the fact of what it is?

    • No idea what it is. Why do you not tell us?
      For me it is Facebook on steroids, and that's it.
      Video Blog
      Social Network
      Shopping site
      Payment provider
      Messaging

      That is what is the "killer" ... I follow a food shop nearby, they upload a new video, I get notification, I watch it, I order the new product, Lalamove brings in in 20 minutes, and I pay online without leaving the app.

      So: super convenient. No adds, and certainly no "propaganda". I only see stuff from people who I follow. And those are neither Chinese nor

      • I just did tell you what it is. WTF? I asked what the killer app is, and all you said was that it's a copycat of existing things.

        China is creepy AF. They're farming the psyches of Western youth toward authoritarianism.

        • You did not tell me what it is.
          And you do not know what it is.

          I suggest to get a $50 burner android phone and just install it.

          Or stay stupid.

          The rest of your post is just nonsense.

          China emerged from an authorism empire into a democracy. 80 years ago. You are an idiot.

  • Chernese collersion!

  • We need Occam's Razor again, folks (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Miles_O'Toole ( 5152533 ) on Monday July 29, 2024 @12:54PM (#64664342)

    Why go to all the trouble of creating a whole bunch of media on TikTok which would have to be carefully laundered to give the illusion that it's influence free? All a foreign government needs to do is give money to some PAC or another and buy as many politicians as they want, from any party. Thanks to AIPAC and similar organizations, Israel's leaders spit in the face of American taxpayers and politicians, and get rewarded for their behaviour with gifts of the most advanced weapons on the planet and billions of American tax dollars.

    Does anybody seriously believe China, Russia, Saudi Arabia or some other vile regime could simply, openly do exactly the same thing?

    When American politicians say they're "open for business", what they really mean is that they're for sale to the highest bidder. Who needs TikTok when there's a simpler, completely legal way to "buy American"?

    • TikTok is about poltically molding US youth (Score:5, Informative)

      by drnb ( 2434720 ) on Monday July 29, 2024 @01:18PM (#64664430)

      Why go to all the trouble of creating a whole bunch of media on TikTok which would have to be carefully laundered to give the illusion that it's influence free?

      The laundering is not necessary. As we saw with 2016 Russian Influence.

      To those reading along, please hold your Trump BS. The Mueller Report showed two things. Russian Influence was real, and that conspiracy or cooperation between Russia and Trump was NOT real. I realize you believe otherwise, but you are likely a victim of foreign influence. Ironically, it was not laundered either.

      Does anybody seriously believe China, Russia, Saudi Arabia or some other vile regime could simply, openly do exactly the same thing?

      Why are you writing as if its hypothetical. They already do so.

      Who needs TikTok ...

      TikTok is quite useful to mold easily influenceable young minds towards anti-western values. For example to conflate legitimate concern for Palestinians with support for Hamas. With nothing more than amplifying pro-Hamas videos deamplifying video critical of Hamas or point out Hamas is an occupier of Palestine, not its legitimate government, an occupier who view the suffering of the Palestinian people as a useful tool not a problem.

      To those of you who believe TikTok is just about some dance videos, well, that's the laundering. :-)

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by ddd4n4 ( 6219084 )
        Ask: Since there's no reasonable way to maintain freedom of speech and simultaneously prevent attempts at negative influence, what is it that renders large numbers of people susceptible to negative influence and how might we inoculate against this phenomenon?

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by drnb ( 2434720 )

          Ask: Since there's no reasonable way to maintain freedom of speech and simultaneously prevent attempts at negative influence, what is it that renders large numbers of people susceptible to negative influence and how might we inoculate against this phenomenon?

          Ideally we teach critical thinking in schools once again, among other things, however until then we do what we can. Like not make it easy for our foreign enemies.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        To be fair, the Mueller Report says that while the Trump campaign didn't collude with Russia, it's only due to their incompetence and not for lack of trying.

        The issue here is the singling out of TikTok, the most left leaning social media platform. Russia primarily operates on Facebook and Twitter. Facebook is full of old people, and Twitter is run by a conservative. Don't tell me Elon is a centrist, he has made it so that the word "cis" gets your post flagged as potentially offensive, while instituting a wh

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by drnb ( 2434720 )

          To be fair, the Mueller Report says that while the Trump campaign didn't collude with Russia, it's only due to their incompetence and not for lack of trying.

          Nope. Read it. It didn't say that.

          The issue here is the singling out of TikTok, the most left leaning social media platform. Russia primarily operates on Facebook and Twitter

          Nope. False dichotomy, Chinese company answerable to CCP vs US companies answerable to US gov. We don't have to make it easy for our foreign enemies, only our domestic ones. :-)

          he has made it so that the word "cis" gets your post flagged as potentially offensive

          That sort of make sense, some use it as a pejorative. If the context fits, and it's all about context isn't it? Ask an Ivy League College President.
          Ok, slightly more seriously, but not entirely, Straight people don't get to decide what LGBTQ+ people are called, LGBTQ+ people get to decide that for t

      • > To those reading along, please hold your Trump BS. The Mueller Report showed two things. Russian Influence was real, and that conspiracy or cooperation between Russia and Trump was NOT real.

        I remember reading the examples of Russian influence, which Congress publicized at the time. They were a bunch of Russian memes posted as individual PDF files for some ungodly reason. One of the first few PDFs contained a picture of Jesus arm wrestling Satan and the others weren't meaningfully different.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by drnb ( 2434720 )

          > To those reading along, please hold your Trump BS. The Mueller Report showed two things. Russian Influence was real, and that conspiracy or cooperation between Russia and Trump was NOT real.

          I remember reading the examples of Russian influence, which Congress publicized at the time. They were a bunch of Russian memes posted as individual PDF files for some ungodly reason. One of the first few PDFs contained a picture of Jesus arm wrestling Satan and the others weren't meaningfully different.

          I was hoping to avoid the fact that the Russian Interference was largely inconsequential to avoid the flame wars. :-)

      • The reason Trump denies there was any Russian influence, even when shown that Trump wasn't "colluding", is because his ego demands that he won because he's extremely popular, the most popular leader of all time, with the largest inauguration in history, the largest hands anyone has ever had, etc. Thus he denies that he got any help, assistance, or underhanded dealings, except for his own personal magnetism.

      • Does anybody seriously believe China, Russia, Saudi Arabia or some other vile regime could simply, openly do exactly the same thing?

        "Why are you writing as if its hypothetical. They already do so."

        Yeah, but its the difference between a firecracker and a 2000 pound bomb. If you weren't aware, AIPAC has a personal "minder" assigned to every Republican member of the House and Senate, and most of the Democratic ones. The minder has the representative's cell number and meets with them regularly in a weird co

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by drnb ( 2434720 )

          Does anybody seriously believe China, Russia, Saudi Arabia or some other vile regime could simply, openly do exactly the same thing?

          "Why are you writing as if its hypothetical. They already do so."

          Yeah, but its the difference between a firecracker and a 2000 pound bomb. If you weren't aware, AIPAC has a personal "minder" assigned to every Republican member of the House and Senate, and most of the Democratic ones. The minder has the representative's cell number and meets with them regularly in a weird combination of public business and private relationship. No other lobby has more than the smallest fraction of AIPAC's influence.

          The most successful lobbies in the US are not those that have frequent contact, make contributions, or do many of the other expected and typical things. The most successful lobbies are those that deliver large numbers of motivated voters to the poll, the lobbies with many millions of voters that will show up on Election Day. The true currency of politics is votes, not money. Money is a secondary thing, useful for influencing voters on the fence. The most successful lobbies have members who are not on the fe

          • I have to disagree with you a bit. The most successful lobby is the one that is most successful at achieving its objectives. In AIPAC's case, it has made Israel far and away the largest recipient of US taxpayer largesse. It has received almost twice what its nearest rival (Egypt) has. American blood and treasure has supported Israel for decades. The United States has been Israel's most powerful enabler on the world stage, providing cover for war crimes and an extended occupation that blatantly contrave

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by drnb ( 2434720 )

              I have to disagree with you a bit. The most successful lobby is the one that is most successful at achieving its objectives.

              I'd say that depends on the degree of opposition they face. Lobbying for something that politicians are inclined to accept is less of a challenge. Not so much you persuading someone, more debunking an opponent's persuasion. Sorts of like defending territory you already have, as opposed to capturing new territory.

              • Given the continuing strength of anti-Semitic elements in the US, the fossil fuel sector's lust for the massive oil reserves of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait and the UAE, and the undeniable fact that being Israel's enabler weakens the US on the world stage and strengthens its opponents, I'd say AIPAC's role lies squarely in the "capturing new territory" part of your analogy.

    • The danger is not just ads. Its collecting user data and using it to target ads at the dumbest voters.

  • Can't do any more damage than the domestics.. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by TigerPlish ( 174064 ) on Monday July 29, 2024 @12:55PM (#64664348)

    China can't do any more damage than the domestic, home-grown services and their hordes of Useful Idiots already haven't done.

    • Nazis are starting to march again. https://michiganadvance.com/20... [michiganadvance.com]

      I bet these are the same people who yelled about wearing a mask during covid but now are too much of a pussy to show their faces. And no these aren't "feds" like some people claim. A few simple questions will kill that theory.

      Which federal agency is paying to dress undercover officers as nazis?
      Why are they doing this? To make the right wing look bad? I don't think they need any help there.

      We fought an actual war with these assholes.

      • Nazis are starting to march again. https://michiganadvance.com/20... [michiganadvance.com]

        People in that city yelled at the Nazis until they finally got back in their cars and left. Here in central Florida, we had a whole gaggle of them marching around Altamonte Springs for hours. Orlando Sentinel even did an article titled "Nazis surge in Florida. Don't you dare act surprised.", which unfortunately is behind a paywall.

        Where's Indiana Jones when you need him?

      • And no these aren't "feds" like some people claim. A few simple questions will kill that theory.

        Proceeds to list questions that don't "kill that theory" as though they do. Not to say there aren't organic white supremacist movements in the US, that would be a fool's errand to argue. But we already know how commonly these groups are heavily infiltrated by letter agency informants & officers, the Whitmore kidnapping attempt of a few years ago being a prime example. This is true of both hard-left-wing and hard-ring-wing organizations, btw.

    • China can't do any more damage than the domestic, home-grown services and their hordes of Useful Idiots already haven't done.

      It's not as if our two-party system gives China a lot of options anyway. They can influence people to vote for the party that hates China, or the party that hates China. They may as well be flipping a disconnected light switch.

  • and... (Score:3)

    by FudRucker ( 866063 ) on Monday July 29, 2024 @01:04PM (#64664374)
    Facebook could allow zuckerberg to influence elections
    and Twitter aka X could allow elon musk to influence elections,
    the list could go on to include Amazon, Apple, Google, Microsoft, ABC, CBS, NBC, NPR, FOX, 4chan, craigslist, slashdot just about any media with more than a dozen followers

  • Not the real reason (Score:4, Insightful)

    by colonslash ( 544210 ) on Monday July 29, 2024 @01:09PM (#64664390)
    The real reason is they don't control the narrative on TikTok. For example [jewishreviewofbooks.com]:

    Protecting Americans from TikTok’s political influence would be a gain to Israel’s standing with its most important ally. One month after the October 7 Hamas attack, TikTok videos with hashtags like #freepalestine were watched by Americans about fifty times more than pro-Israel ones.

    How are we going to keep the populous interested in electing a puppet government for the war state, to send billions upon billions we don't have overseas to kill men, women, and children, if people see the horrors of what their tax money is spent on?

    • The options in this election are: Candidate A, who supports Israel's genocide in Palestine and wants to continue to the war in Ukraine with Russia; Candidate B, who supports Israel's genocide in Palestine and wants to end the war in Ukraine with Russia so that the resources can be reallocated towards a war in Taiwan with China. There is no escape, as there is no democracy.
      • I have the same issue, but I'm not sure about it. Here's what I'm thinking about how Trump will handle things, please educate me if I'm missing something.

        Trump did a Mideast peace deal, and basically the only saber rattling he's done is warning others off. Jimmy Dore had a clip of Trump saying he thought a lasting peace could be worked out, but he saw Netanyahu wasn't interested in a deal. He has kissed the wall and pledged support, but he's not a warmonger. I think he's not a peacenik, but a businessman;

  • Of course the commies in control of their espionage instrument, can tell lies to influence people to vote this way or that, and we can only be certain that it will damage the USA and help China. That is why it should be forced to sell to some benign place that at least is not a US adversary.

  • > Justice Dept. Says TikTok Could Allow China To Influence Elections

  • That was one thing the Justice Department said. For another, here's part of the summary of the Justice Department's argument.

    First, TikTok collects vast amounts of information on its users (and
    non-users), including sensitive information on millions of Americans. The Chinese
    government’s authority over ByteDance enables it to gain access to and exploit
    that information to undermine U.S. national security, including by developing and
    recruiting intelligence assets, identifying American covert intelligence officers and
    assets, and blackmailing or coercing Americans. In addition, China’s use of
    artificial intelligence and other tools for analyzing large datasets in ways that are
    contrary to U.S. national security depend on the sort of bulk data that TikTok
    collects.

    Trying to frame the discussion to focus on the propaganda angle is likely preferred by China. Fortune's owner is heavily invested in China by coincidence.

    Why not link the USA Today article instead? Not paywalled and has a link to the filing.
    https://usatoday.com/story/new... [usatoday.com]

  • It seems that i get instagram and youtube short links about two weeks after content is stale on tiktok but the amount of UK reform videos and misinformation infographs, dubbed AI 'documentary' content and general manipulmedia is unreal. I reported nearly everything I could see that is clearly researchable as invalid but all my 'misinformation' tags were rejected by the platform At the time it was a politically difficult situation in france and england and I felt like tiktok was a net negative and by sharin

  • The damage has already been done. This announcement, though, is a bit of a false flag.

  • And X can't? Or Meta? Or Google/YouTube? Or various TV and radio networks? Or church pulpits?

    The only way to counter one-sided speech is more free speech Forcing TikTok to be sold to one of the existing players above (or some other group of billionaires) will just further reduce people's opportunity to hear a wider variety of voices driven by a wider variety of algorithms.

    FWIW, there's plenty of both MAGA and Kamala on my FYP, despite my having a hard preference for one of them. Meanwhile, X has been shif

  • What the government is asking us to believe is that the nasty Chinese and nasty Russians can decisively move the election needle, while billions of dollars of saturation candidate advertising has little impact.

    Do they think we're stupid? Perhaps they're right.
  • We now live in a North-Korean style, “alternative facts” dystopia where the stories are created, suppressed, or inflated to promote narratives. Let me be clear: Both parties do this.

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