Wind and Solar Energy Overtake Fossil Fuels To Provide 30% of EU Electricity (theguardian.com) 85
AmiMoJo writes: Wind turbines and solar panels have overtaken fossil fuels to generate 30% of the European Union's electricity in the first half of the year, a report has found. Power generation from burning coal, oil and gas fell 17% in the first six months of 2024 compared with the same period the year before, according to climate thinktank Ember. It found the continued shift away from polluting fuels has led to a one-third drop in the sector's emissions since the first half of 2022.
Chris Rosslowe, an analyst at Ember, said the rise of wind and solar was narrowing the role of fossil fuels. "We are witnessing a historic shift in the power sector, and it is happening rapidly." The report found EU power plants burned 24% less coal and 14% less gas from the first half of 2023 to the first half of 2024. The shift comes despite a small uptick in electricity demand that has followed two years of decline linked to the pandemic and Ukraine war.
Chris Rosslowe, an analyst at Ember, said the rise of wind and solar was narrowing the role of fossil fuels. "We are witnessing a historic shift in the power sector, and it is happening rapidly." The report found EU power plants burned 24% less coal and 14% less gas from the first half of 2023 to the first half of 2024. The shift comes despite a small uptick in electricity demand that has followed two years of decline linked to the pandemic and Ukraine war.
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Canada $0.17 CAD ($0.14 USD)
US $0.17 USD
EU 0.28 euro ($0.30 USD)
Not sure we have anything useful to learn from Europe.
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Do you realize that decoupling policies explicitly sever supply from demand in price setting?
"In public utility regulation, decoupling refers to the disassociation of a utility's profits from its sales of the energy commodity.[1] Instead, a rate of return is aligned with meeting revenue targets, and rates are adjusted up or down to meet the target at the end of the adjustment period."
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Re:*crickets* (Score:4, Informative)
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Well, the EU price includes heavy taxes. In Netherlands the tax alone is 15 eurocents per kWh. If you deduct that from the earlier mentioned 30 cents the prices are comparable.
On top of that the dynamic prices based on wind and solar excluding taxes average around 8-10 cents per kWh with these regularly going negative during high wind and solar times.
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Well, the EU price includes heavy taxes.
Well there is one lesson definitely not to learn. Why would you heavily tax a necessity of life? Do you heavily tax water too?
Oh, right. You want to discourage people from using it. Sorry, coercing people into austerity is not going to fly here.
"Not sure we have anything useful to learn . . ." (Score:2)
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The EU doesn't allow externalizing so much of the cost. Your energy is only cheap because other people are paying for it.
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The EU doesn't allow externalizing so much of the cost. Your energy is only cheap because other people are paying for it.
Not certain what you are talking about. I sure do not see any signs of any subsidy in the electric bill that I PAY every month.
Now, if somebody were to do a truly independent and honest (two words rarely found together, much less achieving their true meaning) study of electric rates for every controlling locality (could run into the hundreds, even thousands of instances) in my country AND THEN PUBLISH IT for all to read ... then we might see the actuall truth or deception of your statement because right now
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Who do you buy your energy from?
Re:*crickets* - we need nuclear (Score:2)
China is $0.07-9 USD
Here is a good description of where it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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One thing: Having a power-grid that is not crap costs money. (No idea about Canada...)
That EU price is about half for delivery, not for generation.
Re:*crickets* (Score:5, Interesting)
This price difference turns out to be related to the same reason renewables overtook fossil fuels this year in the EU: the price of natural gas and coal in Europe have risen sharply since the 2022 invasion of Ukraine. In fact electricity prices seem to have tracked the rise in gas price almost exactly; eyeballing the graph it looks like about 30% in two years.
So yes, it's possible we have a thing or two we can learn from Europe about renewables, should we ever face our own supply issues. It's pretty arrogant to assume we have nothing to learn from how another advanced economy handles a crisis.
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https://www.eia.gov/todayinene... [eia.gov]
If there is a lesson to be learned it is that trusting Russia for anything important was a stupid idea in the first place.
Re:*crickets* (Score:5, Interesting)
Again, the historic difference between EU and US prices simply reflects the difference in fossil fuel costs in the EU vs the US. If you're going to make most of your electricity from fossil fuels, it's going to cost more where fossil fuels are more expensive.
Sure, making Russia a critical part of your economy's supply chain wasn't the greatest idea, but it made a lot of people money in the short run. That's why it was politically impossible to face that problem until after the 2020 invasion. It's also why, all along, the Greens were the most hawkish on Russian aggression in Ukraine. Other parties were reluctant to mess with Europe's gas station.
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If there is a lesson to be learned it is that trusting Russia for anything important was a stupid idea in the first place.
Lesson for whom? Hopefully for everyone. The economic principle that countries get elevated to first world nations through trade which causes ends to tyranny was a US led principle. Whether it is Russia or China the idea wasn't to tie the EU or USA to someone, it was to make the others valued trading partners.
That obviously failed, for Russia, and for China.
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No not really (both you and the GP). Europe has been paying 28c/kWh for electricity for well over a decade now. Also the price of nat gas dropped to below pre-Ukraine war levels in April last year and is currently trading on the Dutch TTF for the same price it was trading in early 2021. The cost of power here really has zero to do with renewables except for maybe Germany - where they are very up front and list a renewable tax as a separate line item on the bill.
You are right about one thing though, electric
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You are to stupid to learn anything from Europe.
What about the average monthly or yearly total bill in, Canada, USA and Europe?
Hint: cost for infrastructure is the same everywhere, and it gets "averaged" into the price per kWh.
What you can learn from Europe is: the typical monthly bill is not even half, often below a quarter of a typical Us Asian. Obviously the price per kWh has to be higher when they basically have the exact same fixed costs for maintenance of the grid!
When I lived in Germany my monthly e
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What time of year, and where do you live? I live in MD, in the DC 'burbs, and (digs through pile of paid bills) my July bill was $273 FOR THE MONTH. And no, we have the thermostat set on 80F.
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I can imagine that bill would be pushing $1k in Germany. Sure glad I don't live there.
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No, it would not.
It would be $40 or $45.
IDIOT.
We do not consume so many kWh that we have a bill like yours.
You are an complete idiot.
A German household with 4 people rarely is over $100 electricity bill.
I never had a bill over something like $55 ... neither does my father who lives in a BIG house with family of four.
Stupid Americans and stupid Canadians now, too?
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We do not consume so many kWh that we have a bill like yours.
Well I know you don't have air conditioning. So you don't have gaming PCs, home servers, home theatres, garage workshops, power tools, compressors, washers, dryers, ovens, microwaves, espresso makers, deep freezes, stereo equipment, surveillance systems, vacuums and carpet shampooers either? Seems rather sad.
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If you and your whole society consumes 10 to 20 times more electricity than a German or European per household, then why do you wonder why you price per kWh is lower?
You think we have no dishwashers? Actually I do not know what a "space heater" is and for what one would use it. My heating is done with a gas furnace, that heats water and pumps it around the house through radiators to heat the house. Not many kWh electricity involved.
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I have all that, except Air Condition. A 50cm sand stone wood wall, does not need air condition.
Some things you mention are odd luxuries, why would I need a "carpet shampooers"? My living area has wood floors.
And the rest - e.g. bathroom, YES THE DAMN ROOM WITH THE BATH/TUB!
And e.g. toilet (that is not a BATHROOM, it is a freaking Toilette) has stone floors. Same as my kitchen. Having carpets that need a carpet shampooer sounds pretty odd. And how much power can such a simple device possibly use? How many h
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No stone floors though that would be nice. Wood, vinyl and carpet. Carpet takes the most care but is the nicest with
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I'm using well over 1000 watts as pretty much a baseline,
And that is your problem.
Germans do not have that problem.
If my fridge is not running the only power drawn is my laptop. And that is 50W or 70W.
Our power bills are far below 100EUR per month. Price per kWh is completely irrelevant. What counts is how much of your income you pay at the end of the month. Electricity is very very low. I mean, a month has 30 days. A beer a day - in a pub - is more than the electricity bill. Three beers at home every day:
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What counts is how much of your income you pay at the end of the month.
And also needing to care about electric usage at all to begin with. On an audio forum I frequent people ask if certain DACs sound better if you leave them on (they do, cause they take quite a while to warm up). I don't even think about this, I just leave my DACs powered all the time. Some people have to worry about that 7x24 15W, which I consider ridiculous. I don't spin down the HDDs in my NAS, no need. Likewise I never turn off my PC except for restarts. I like not having to concern myself with thes
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I do not have any HDs.
My computers go to sleep when not used. Except for this fucked up Acer running Windows 11, which is secretly updating it self despite the fact that automatic updates are switched off. And one of the updates killed sleep mode.
I live now in Thailand and use AC regularly, but not often. My total kWh consumption is about 35 kWh per month. Which will add to something like 450 kWh per year.
In Germany my total consumption was at 1500 kWh per year mark. As two people. But perhaps you consider
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Was that a passionate post, or what?
You weren't listening in the first place, it seems (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm definitely right-of-center in my economic thinking and I personally think Solar is fabulous because it allows small-operators to generate power without much government "help" (other than subsidies in some countries). This means folks can live off-grid or simply less dependent on the local central power generation. I'm generally against collectivism and centralization and cheap solar power is helping individuals at least as much as it helps big business or government. Just about every "prepper" I've ever known also appreciates the freedom/liberty side of solar. So, if you were trying to stick your thumb in some partisan eyes, try harder, I guess?
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Oops! Looks like they modded you down by accident! It's like a feeding frenzy in here! Hehe.
Re:You weren't listening in the first place, it se (Score:5, Informative)
Nothing wrong with solar or wind.
But you need continental scale power transfer, which is fine if expensive in addition to storage and some other bits and bobs. Quite a few countries are unwilling to give up energy security especially when major territorial invasions are within living memory. This is not unreasonable.
Anyway what's with the recent meme for ragging on France? Has everyone forgotten that global warming is a thing and that France has one of the lowest co2 per kWh figures of any major industrial power and have had those numbers for decades. Everyone else has a lot of catching up to do.
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Yes, the interconnectors are being built out at pace. They’re only a part of what’s needed: also need storage, demand flex, overcapacity etc. It’s fine, though. A system problem that’s within our grasp to solve.
The ragging on France I think stems from people liking to be rude about the French for xenophobia, and the air cover provided by the failures in nuclear supply stability over the past couple of summers due to climate-induced droughts
Re:You weren't listening in the first place, it se (Score:4, Interesting)
We certainly need better grids, and grid storage; but that's not to say that a lot couldn't be done without that. The USA has very high rates of air conditioner usage compared with Europe. And often ACs are running when the sun is shining. Putting solar panels on the roof of every house in the US (and maybe a storage battery alongside) would be significant; and doesn't require continental scale anything...
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Indeed. Honestly it's the same elsewhere. Though moreso in much of America than Europe being more southerly.
Eventually you start to run into problems which do need solving, bit they come on gradually and are measurable, and it's not like everyone will instantly get grid feed in solar overnight.
You do have to proactively solve the problems: if cheap solar makes other power uneconomical you need a plan for bad weather, but again none of this rocket surgery. You might have to move to grid connection fees and l
Re:You weren't listening in the first place, it se (Score:4, Interesting)
The issue with France is that their nuclear fleet is not very flexible, and is reaching end of life. They now have a choice. Replacing the reactors will be expensive, and they need to be updated designs that the French would have to import because they haven't developed them domestically. They will also need to add some storage in all likelihood, to make the output more flexible, so it can integrate with neighbouring countries that have a lot of renewables.
They are already finding it difficult as massive amounts of solar and wind undercut their nuclear generation.
As for energy security, Western European countries, with the exception of the UK, are not worried about relying on neighbours. It would be like US states worrying about being on a grid connected to their neighbours, i.e. as dumb as Texas.
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The issue with France is that their nuclear fleet is not very flexible, and is reaching end of life.
But it's hard to argue that nuclear was a poor decision without arguing that global warming isn't that bad.
They now have a choice. Replacing the reactors will be expensive, and they need to be updated designs that the French would have to import because they haven't developed them domestically.
They now have a choice. Replacing the reactors will be expensive, and they need to be updated designs that the French
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Yeah, I'm not saying nuclear was the worst option when France chose it back in the 60s. But now, it's not the way forward.
The EU started out as a coal trade agreement between Germany and France, with the idea being to make them economically dependent on each other so that war would be impossible. France embraced the idea of dependent economies in the 1950s.
The nuclear weapons stuff is just dick waving, same as the UK.
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The EU started out as a coal trade agreement between Germany and France, with the idea being to make them economically dependent on each other so that war would be impossible. France embraced the idea of dependent economies in the 1950s.
So they say, but if you look at how France operates they keep a number of strategic security related industries in house. They have a complete independent defense industry covering basically every sector and they are keen on energy security. What they say and what they do ar
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But all things considered regarding climate change, the French contributed less than any other major industrialised country.
And they still are! As of today, all major industrial countries with low CO2 emissions have nuclear power. Germany which seems to be the poster child for a forward looking renewables push is doing worse than the UK, and much much much worse than France.
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In another discussion the person arguing insufficiency and land use was going from a base usage of 5500kwh per month. Which is about 180kwH per day.
Land isn't a problem for any home owner. Intermittency is a valid point growing less valid as batteries get cheaper and have larger capacities. *AND* as utilities become less reliable because they are cutting corners on vegetative maintenance and hardening their transmission lines. Outages were *rare* in the 80s and 90s. Lately, I and friends (in a maj
Re:You weren't listening in the first place, it se (Score:4, Interesting)
A few things:
1. Fluffernutter lives a complicated life with a large family in a cold part of Canada that’s quite a long way from everywhere else. So it’s really unusual, and that’s what causes eg his huge power consumption, but he never acknowledges that it’s unusual. It’s normal for him, so he projects outward that it’s not edge case, when it clearly is
2. Land is indeed a problem for apartment dwellers, and most countries do have large rental sectors, so to some extent there’s a dependency on landlords to do the right thing. Even when they want to, the incentive can be misaligned and prevent it. This happens a lot in commercial property, where landlords may flip a property portfolio within three to five years and thus not see a return on an infra investment like solar, and anyway they don’t pay the power bills. I’m not saying this is right or good, but it’s the reality of real estate and needs tackling
3. Outages are a thing in the US, but not in Europe. Here in the UK, I have *never* experienced a power outage.
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As I said, "Land isn't a problem for any home owner. "
Apartment Dwellers are a resolvable issue if the government puts law in place to benefit apartments putting solar on their parking and roofs. Same thing for EV charging. Trust me, when over 50% of the apartment dwelling population has EV's of some kind, you'll start to see new apartments have EV charging built in. And older ones will start to add it. If you have a parking spot, you'll have EV charging- it just might take a decade to become ubiqui
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Maybe home owner means something different in the US from the UK? Here, it would include people who own apartments. But the fundamental issue with flats and rooftop solar is obviously that the area of roof available is small relative to the number of dwellings. A relatively higher proportion of building power will need to come from the grid cf a detached house.
Yes -- the UK doesn't have any of those natural disasters in significant numbers, and also our infra is better maintained than the US. I think the la
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I've never seen a single person make the argument that solar was insufficient in it's abundance
Exactly, no sane person would have said that there isn't enough sunlight. What was said was that it would require an unrealistic amount of resources to get a reasonable share of the total electricity use. I think there is some truth to it. The amount of solar panels delivered and installed in recent years is staggering and an incredible achievement for humanity.
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I've never seen a single person make the argument that solar was insufficient in it's abundance.
There is plenty of solar energy to fulfill all of my energy needs. There is technology of a suitable level to provide this.
None of this matters. My dwelling is required by law to be connected to the shared utilities. If I disconnected, my dwelling is condemned as uninhabitable. That is because I am required to subsidize the energy used by aluminium smelters, industrial mixing machines, and other factories. (It should be noted that all of those industries are building wealth off of *MY* dime)
This means folks can live off-grid or simply less dependent on the local central power generation.
Again. That is i
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Re:*crickets* (Score:5, Insightful)
Adding to what others have already said to this ridiculous argument. Even if it were true and we did not have enough sunlight to power the entire planet, why should we not use the energy we do have available? Why does it always have to be "all or nothing"?
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Agree.
I always like to draw this analogy: if someone is kicking you in the nuts on a daily basis, that is worse than kicking you in the nuts on a weekly, monthly or annual basis. We kick *ourselves* in the huts each time we use fossil fuels. The less we do this, the better for us and our nuts!
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Even if it were true and we did not have enough sunlight to power the entire planet, why does it always have to be "all or nothing"?
Just to play devil's advocate, it doesn't need to be all or nothing, but it can't be the perfect middle point either. The issue is that fundamentally the intermittency of renewables needs to be addressed (we need more storage), and its needs to be done *NOW*. We are already seeing situations where market forces are actively working against the expansion of solar and wind without the addition of storage.
On a retail level my energy contract would *charge* me if I exported electricity to the grid. The lack of
Re: *crickets* (Score:3, Interesting)
When you can make fertilizer and plastic from electricity, get back to us. Electricity powers the things we make with our fossil fuel based economy.
Once they're gone, expect to see our little global civilization to slowly revert back to, at best, 18th century arrangements.
You know, most people not having access to clean drinking water, no medicine, expensive housing, etc
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Well I wasn't alive in the 17th century but I remember when breakfast cereals were packaged in waxed paper bags instead of plastic and nobody thought it was a hardship.
I'm sure some people will complain when they can no longer buy individually shrink wrapped apples but we will survive.
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You know, most people not having access to clean drinking water, no medicine, expensive housing, etc
On what planet would that be?
Ah, you are talking about your fucked up 3rd world nation?
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It s about the CO2e! Fertilizer and plastics are problematic in other ways, but we can make them from fossil fuels without causing CO2e levels to rise, unlike burning fossil fuels for energy. We don’t need to stop one just because we stop the other.
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The main issue with fertilizer is the ammonia, which we can make with hydrogen produced by renewable electricity.
Some countries have already identified hydrogen as the new oil, in terms of how valuable it is. Ireland, for example, is planning to use on-shore wind for its electricity needs, and dedicate most or all of its offshore wind to producing hydrogen.
They are well positioned to do it, because they have massive wind resources and a lot of airlines are based there.
They are converting old fossil power st
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Good for them.... (Score:1)
Re: Welcome to the club (Score:2)
How much is nuclear in France?
(Electric crickets)
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Used to be around 70%
But in recent years it is in general much lower.
Texas made half of today's power with renewables (Score:3)
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Yes, one way or another, this is happening almost everywhere, because the economics are so compelling.
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I'd be more happy if they didn't burn that half mining bitcoin.
What is the remaining 70%? (Score:2)
30% of clean power, but what is the remaining 70%? The original report [ember-climate.org] suggests 40% fossil fuel, 19% nuclear
The Guardian paper is confusing because it mixes current share for renewables and change rate for fossil fuel
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Bad statistics (Score:3, Informative)
The average is useful, but the minimum tells you how much more you've got to build. For example South Australians bleat on about how 70% of their electricity is renewable, quietly forgetting that for weeks at a time they need 16 hours of coal powered electricity every night via an interconnector.
https://opennem.org.au/energy/... [opennem.org.au]
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Why does the interconnector need to send them coal power? The times in Australia where the entire continent is concurrently covered by cloud for weeks at a time is *checks notes* ... never.