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The Almighty Buck

Alibaba Now Sells a $200,000 Diamond-Making Machine (arstechnica.com) 78

Posted by BeauHD from the diamonds-for-all dept.
Ars Technica's Benj Edwards writes: In an age when you can get just about anything online, it's probably no surprise that you can buy a diamond-making machine for $200,000 on Chinese eCommerce site Alibaba. If, like me, you haven't been paying attention to the diamond industry, it turns out that the availability of these machines reflects an ongoing trend toward democratizing diamond production -- a process that began decades ago and continues to evolve. [...] Today, there are two primary methods for creating lab-grown diamonds: the HPHT process and chemical vapor deposition (CVD). Both types of machines are now listed on Alibaba, with prices starting at around $200,000, as pointed out in a Hacker News comment by engineer John Nagle (who goes by "Animats" on Hacker News). A CVD machine we found is more pricey, at around $450,000.

While the idea of purchasing a diamond-making machine on Alibaba might be intriguing, it's important to note that operating one isn't as simple as plugging it in and watching diamonds form. According to Lakha's article, these machines require significant expertise and additional resources to operate effectively. For an HPHT press, you'd need a reliable source of high-quality graphite, metal catalysts like iron or cobalt, and precise temperature and pressure control systems. CVD machines require a steady supply of methane and hydrogen gases, as well as the ability to generate and control microwaves or hot filaments. Both methods need diamond seed crystals to start the growth process. Moreover, you'd need specialized knowledge to manage the growth parameters, handle potentially hazardous materials and high-pressure equipment safely, and process the resulting raw diamonds into usable gems or industrial components. The machines also use considerable amounts of energy and require regular maintenance. Those factors may make the process subject to some regulations that are far beyond the scope of this piece. In short, while these machines are more accessible than ever, turning one into a productive diamond-making operation would still require significant investment in equipment, materials, expertise, and safety measures. But hey, a guy can dream, right?
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Alibaba Now Sells a $200,000 Diamond-Making Machine More

Alibaba Now Sells a $200,000 Diamond-Making Machine

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  • Holding out for a gold-making machine (Score:3)

    by Powercntrl ( 458442 ) on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @08:37PM (#64778669) Homepage

    If you've ever actually tried to sell a diamond second hand, you'd know they're not the easiest things to turn back into cash (at least not without taking a huge loss). South Park actually did a rather hilarious episode about the huge disparity in price between what new jewelry costs and what it subsequently fetches on the second-hand market. So, even if it wasn't an impossibly complicated process to make artificial diamonds with a Chinese diamond making machine, it would probably be rather difficult to do so profitably.

  • At long last (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I will have a friend in the diamond business!

  • Shiny rocks != industrial abrasive (Score:4, Informative)

    by RightwingNutjob ( 1302813 ) on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @08:44PM (#64778685)

    Diamond jewelry is expensive because of perceived (and manufactured) scarcity.

    Industrial abrasives are less expensive.

    You're not paying 200k for a gizmo to churn out giant rocks for engagement rings. You're paying for a gizmo to make tooling for precision optical fabrication and the like.

    And considering that even a modest 2.5 axis CNC mill with a tool changer and such runs like 60k, 200k for a diamond making machine isn't far out of what machine tools cost.

    • Re:Shiny rocks != industrial abrasive (Score:5, Informative)

      by caseih ( 160668 ) on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @09:00PM (#64778705)

      Yes the primary application for these machines is industrial use. And I'm sure they are quite useful machines for a lot of companies. There must be a fairly decent market.

      It's funny that De Beers has managed to completely fabricate the notion that diamonds are desirable and somehow an essential symbol of human commitment, out of whole cloth. Until DeBeers started a massive advertising campaign to make it so, diamonds had very little to do with wedding rings.

      Turns out diamonds are neither rare nor that intrinsically valuable. If they were, you'd find it easy to resell diamond jewelry.

      A decades-old article is still quite relevant and informative: https://www.theatlantic.com/ma... [theatlantic.com]

      • Diamond wedding rings are an American thing.
        I never saw a person wearing wedding ring that was not plain gold (ofc. not pure) or in rare cases Platin.

        And I never saw an advertising campaign for diamond rings either, unless it was from jewelry company or something.

        • The first diamond ring was actually created by an Austrian. In the "upper class" world wide, diamond rings have been a thing for over 50 years.

        • Re:Shiny rocks != industrial abrasive (Score:4, Funny)

          by pjt33 ( 739471 ) on Wednesday September 11, 2024 @03:04AM (#64779195)

          And I never saw an advertising campaign for diamond rings either, unless it was from jewelry company or something.

          At the risk of stating the obvious, companies don't tend to pay to advertise products that they don't sell.

          • The parent claimed that the De Boors (sp?) made campaigns.
            I never saw any.

            I have no big jewelry company on my mind, so I can not give an example. But obviously in fashion magazines or on TV they make advertisements. And obviously there are also rings with jewels, and of course diamonds. But: diamond rings are uncommon as "marriage rings".

            You basically only see stuff like this on social events. Like Cannes festival, and then if you look carefully: the people wear a plain gold ring side by side with the gems.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by pjt33 ( 739471 )

              They were talking about a long-running ad campaign in the USA in the 1940s, so most of us won't have seen it. And maybe also about the campaign that ran in Japan in the 1960s, which is again before my time, at least, and outside of my geographical range.

            • Were you not alive during the 1990s? They had a number of ads on TV. Family Guy and other shows have parodied them as well.

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by unrtst ( 777550 )

                GP's handle shows it's an address @oomentor.de, so there's a good chance they didn't see the commercials run in the US.

                May also be worth noting, especially to non-US users, that those diamond rings are generally the engagement rings. The wedding bands are often much more plain, often just a gold band. So you may see them stacked on a finger - engagement ring and wedding ring.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

          Diamond wedding rings are an American thing.
          I never saw a person wearing wedding ring that was not plain gold (ofc. not pure) or in rare cases Platin.

          And I never saw an advertising campaign for diamond rings either, unless it was from jewelry company or something.

          The whole "diamonds are forever" thing and "Say it with diamonds" is basically all DeBeers marketing copy.

          In the mid-20th century, diamond rings weren't particularly special and weddings were done with many kinds of rings. The whole brouhaha over t

      • ```
        It's funny that De Beers has managed to completely fabricate the notion that diamonds are desirable and somehow an essential symbol of human commitment, out of whole cloth
        ```
        They found a shaft in South Africa that wasn't supposed to be there (miles deep, smooth walls) while doing legitimate mining; an international effort was made to allow them a world monopoly without interference in exchange for keeping a file of discoveries quiet.

        Upsetting the history accepted by the world populations at the time was

        • They found a shaft in South Africa that wasn't supposed to be there (miles deep, smooth walls) while doing legitimate mining; an international effort was made to allow them a world monopoly without interference in exchange for keeping a file of discoveries quiet.

          I honestly can't tell what you're getting at. Are you saying De Beers was given a diamond monopoly in exchange for hiding evidence of prehistoric aliens?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

        Turns out diamonds are neither rare nor that intrinsically valuable.

        Diamond is just one of many crystalline forms of carbon. The same carbon exists as graphite, used in many things including pencils and other things.

        Carbon itself is very inexpensive and quite easy to obtain.

        Lab grown, created, artificial, diamonds are easy to get, and they have collapsed the diamond market because they have basically extreme purity and color, and can be had in cuts that are difficult to do with natural diamonds.

        Heck, you

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by unrtst ( 777550 )

          Lab grown, created, artificial, diamonds are easy to get, and they have collapsed the diamond market because they have basically extreme purity and color, and can be had in cuts that are difficult to do with natural diamonds.

          Ya know, I keep hearing this, and I do believe the lab grown ones should be significantly cheaper, but I'm not seeing it when I look for them. I wind up on reddit threads talking about buying from Harry (a person), or saying to get a stone from some site (which is still quite expensive) and get it set elsewhere, etc. Oddly, I just did a quick search, hit another reddit thread, and ran into Ritani.com, which seems pretty decent... but, again, the prices aren't that different.

          For example, starting with these

          • Change your color search parameters. D to H is like "the best" to " really shitty". Do just D and E and compare.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by unrtst ( 777550 )

              Change your color search parameters. D to H is like "the best" to " really shitty". Do just D and E and compare.

              OK. I did that and the result was:
              Blue Nile: $3420 - $3980 for the cheapest 4 returned
              Ritani: $3498 - $3641 for the cheapest 4 returned

              ___ BUT ___ I immediately saw my mistake! The results from Ritani were also "Natural" diamonds! So no wonder I was getting like-for-like results! lol

              Repeating it on Ritani for just Lab Diamonds gets the goods!!!
              Ritani: $459 - $469 for the cheapest 4 returned

              THANK YOU! I'm so glad I went back and tried the search again!

              FWIW, I noticed one or two of your other posts on this ar

      • Agreed. Funny, when my wife and I got married decades ago I asked her if she wanted a diamond ring. She looked at me in horror and said 'I'd be too afraid of losing the stone.' True that.

      • My favorite is angle is how they are now trying to make it sound like a mined diamond is somehow better than artificial. They want the woman to think the guy is being cheap. The real reason for anything expensive and publicly visible, like a watch or car, is to show off that you have the money to buy it to pump up your ego.

  • Dang it, close but no cigar (Score:3)

    by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @08:45PM (#64778687)

    CVD machines require a steady supply of methane and hydrogen gases, as well as the ability to generate and control microwaves or hot filaments.

    Shoot! We've got plenty of beans, and we own a microwave... but our stove top is induction.

  • Pressurized & heated CARBON. Diamonds are not "rare". The only "rare" part is how often DeBeers releases inventory to the world. They pretty much have a monopoly on the commercial diamond market and pretty much control the price!

  • I'm going for this one instead (Score:4, Funny)

    by Sebby ( 238625 ) on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @10:18PM (#64778781)

    I'm gonna go for the lad grown diamond machine [alibaba.com] instead - the mystery of what that is sounds much more fun!

  • How are you going to sell those diamonds? People only buy diamonds from jewelers because they can't tell if it's real. Jewelers will never buy a diamond from anyone but DeBeers. The moment the price of diamonds collapses, the jewelry industry will cease to exist.

    • Re: Supply chain (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Kelxin ( 3417093 ) on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @10:27PM (#64778797)
      I'm actually in the diamond industry. Wholesalers buy diamonds from tons of different companies. Lab Grown diamonds are actually driving many wholesalers out of business because of how low the margins are. Retailers are the only ones making real money now and that might not be for long either.
      • Aren't marriage rates way down in most modernized countries though? When it comes to jewelry diamonds I would think that would be a significant amount of profit. That whole 3 months salary nonsense
        • Pandora diamond rings: https://us.pandora.net/en/ring... [pandora.net]
          • Pandora sells crap stones on their jewelry. I would recommend actually going to one of the custom ring shops instead that pair with a wholesaler like "jewelry this" out of Chicago or "finer custom jewelry" out of Arizona or Texas as a couple examples. Always check their Google reviews. Avoid large chains and "mega websites" like rare carat. The mom and pop custom shops will give you one on one meetings, better pricing and you won't have the same jewelry as half a million other people.
        • Yes, marriage rates are WAY down, especially compared to the 50s: https://www.jec.senate.gov/pub... [senate.gov] The diamond industry right now is taking a bruising.

      • How does the quality and colour of manufactured diamonds compare?

        • Re: Supply chain (Score:5, Informative)

          by Kelxin ( 3417093 ) on Wednesday September 11, 2024 @02:02AM (#64779109)
          The quality and color of lab grown diamonds is far superior to any natural diamond and they're usually around 1/5th of the cost. Manufacturer to wholesale, the profit is about 2%, from wholesale to retail it's about 10%, from retail to end user it ranges from 200% to 400% depending on what level of sales you do.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by trawg ( 308495 )

            Super interesting. Is there much room for prices to move down?

            • On the wholesale side, definitely not considering how many diamond producers and wholesalers have already gone away this last year. Quite a few retail shops are starting to panic also because they're not being as much of a "cash cow" as their used to.

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by trawg ( 308495 )

                Sorry, my question was very poorly phrased - I actually meant is there room for the costs of creation of artificial diamonds to come down significantly? Like improvements in the process, increased access to cheaper renewable energy, etc?

                • No, India has pretty much hit rock bottom on driving the prices down for manufacturing. Even these "$200,000" machines have been torn apart, replicated and sold in India for about $5k.

        • They work the same in their intended use, aka. grinding down stuff in industrial manufacturing.

        • Re: Supply chain (Score:5, Interesting)

          by khchung ( 462899 ) on Wednesday September 11, 2024 @02:10AM (#64779127) Journal

          How does the quality and colour of manufactured diamonds compare?

          The quality and color of manufactured diamonds are so good that DeBeers is now advertising that defects in their diamonds are *a good thing*. That's how good manufactured diamonds are now.

        • Lab grown are better in every way.
    • Pandora sells rings with pretty manufactured diamonds. Since diamonds are so overpriced, it is best to buy zircon jewelery.
    • Debeers cartel is mostly broken now, Jewellers everywhere sell manufactured diamonds. Whats more manufactured diamonds are often far superior quality than natural ones. originally DeBeers and others would say a manufactured diamond could never match the quality of natural diamonds. Now they argue that it is the flaws and imperfection of natural diamonds that make them better.

    • Who said anything about selling on the open market? You buy one of these, have your minions run it for you and then entirely clothe your supermodel wife in diamonds at the next red carpet event you're going to. When asked, you say the dress is insured for a billion dollars or something, but really it's worth about $100 on the secondary market, so you use the diamonds to make the chandelier on your yacht sparkle.

      By the time you've done all that, you can write off the cost of the machine and materials, sell o

  • What's the largest diamond it can make? We know they will win on clarity, as synthetic diamonds are purer than dug up diamonds .. in fact synthetic diamond to be sold as jewelry diamonds have to be manufactured dirty so they have the necessary impurities..

    • I've seen at least a 10ct lab, and no, they don't "make them dirty to have impurities", more pure = higher rating on clarity and easier to cut properly, though there are experiments right now with different chemicals to try to provide fluorescence (like natural diamonds).

  • in 20 years, if society doesn't collapse, there will be while-u-wait diamond machines in every mall in the land. You'll be able to get diamonds engraved with your sweethearts name and maybe even a microscopic picture of them. Of course it will be as popular as photo booths in malls are today. A novelty. And just like aluminium before the industrial age, older people will tell the youths that diamonds were rare when they were a kid and no one will care.
    People will want functional jewlery in the futur

  • One of the mind boggling things I saw on Alibaba and similar is an oversized pen. A hand held laser welder, between 1500 and 2500 Watt. Of course the "box" generating the beam is about 2 quick yards. The beam goes through a glass fibre to the pen.
    If you can believe the advertising videos, the welding seam is super homogeneous.
    No idea how the person doing it, looks at the target, I assume a camera and screen or VR glasses, those beams extremely powerfull

    • That kind of welder does not have to be very robust, since a user can only ever make two spot welds with it - one using the left eye and another with the right eye.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by pjt33 ( 739471 )

      Because lasers are single frequency, they use goggles which function as notch cut filters. See e.g. the YouTube channel Backyard Scientist [youtube.com] playing with a 2kW laser from Alibaba.

      • That could work. Did not think about that.
        Good point!

      • I have a pair of super expensive laser safety sunglasses which I needed for a UAV job. I thought I could use them while driving, but then I cannot see the green traffic lights.

  • When they sell a machine that can turn lead to gold.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by irving47 ( 73147 )

      https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-lead-can-be-turned-into-gold/

      You don't mind if it's highly radioactive or way, WAY more expensive than 'natural' gold, do you?

  • when do I get my primer ?

  • If anyone's interested, there is a very old Wired article about the infancy of the tech. and what it took for Apollo diamonds to get started. It's fascinating from multiple angles. https://www.wired.com/2003/09/diamond/

  • Beginning Super-[Hero/Villan] trying to outfit themselves/lair with gear from online 'sells anything' website, and the trial/tribulations that follow.

  • This might be a key step towards something even better: An affordable turnkey chip fab.

    Yes, that's considerably more complex but growing carbon crystals with a small enough number of flaws to be considered "diamonds" is a step towards that, especially the CVD machine.

    It seems like absolute fantasy now, but imagine a future where hobbyists will actually be able to purchase a few basic materials and fab their own chips with a $10k machine. Before that happens, fab technology would become available to any st

  • If you're looking for jewelry, skip diamonds and go for silicon carbide, also known as moissanite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] . Since the refractive index is higher than that of diamond, it shines even better. Hardness ~9.5 on the mohs scale. A 1 carat pendant can be had for about 15 USD on AliExpress. (Do check the silver, I've had good quality shipments but sometimes there's cadmium and other crap in it. Lately I've only received good stuff.)
    • Moissanite, meh. It's 9.25 on the hardness scale (vs 10 for diamonds) and around "k" on the diamond color scale. They will never have the pure color of a good lab grown.
      • Nonsense, they shine and sparkle like diamonds, you get them in many nice colours (who wants colourless? Boring!) and 9.x is harder than sapphire, the next well known hardest natural stone. Since they're easy to make in the lab, they're cheap and most of all, they completely destroy the idea that for something pretty, one has to put down a lot of money, which is a real nightmare to The Beers, and that is a fantastic reason to keep pushing moissanite. If your disagree, please disclose your relationship to la
        • I work on the wholesale side of diamonds and gems. Diamonds give the full rainbow when under proper lighting. If I wanted a specific colored stone, I'd get that. Neither lab grown or moissanite retain their resell value, so meh. I do data aggregation programming, so doesn't affect my life either way if one or the other sell more, I'm just speaking from seeing over 100,000 of both.
        • Also, as far as "putting down a lot of money", if I was going that angle, I'd be trying to push natural. Lab is pennies on the dollar compared to natural.
          • Thank you for the disclosure. My family heirlooms are largely in diamonds and other such stones (sapphires iirc). My grandfather buried stones during WWII and my father and his siblings got their share when they married. One such stone (2 carat vs) on a pendant with a bunch of smaller ones was valued around 20k for insurance purposes. Selling it wouldn't get 10k or even 5k. Fsck De Beers with a rake. Moissanite is really as good looking and shiny, unless you know your stuff and can look close up, and even t

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