Norway Hits Milestone as Electric Cars Surpass Petrol Vehicles (theguardian.com) 158
Electric cars now outnumber petrol cars in Norway for the first time, an industry organisation has said, a world first that puts the country on track towards taking fossil fuel vehicles off the road. From a report: Of the 2.8m private cars registered in the Nordic country, 754,303 are all-electric, against 753,905 that run on petrol, the Norwegian road federation (OFV) said in a statement. Diesel models remain the most numerous at just under 1m, but their sales are falling rapidly. "This is historic. A milestone few saw coming 10 years ago," said OFV director Oyvind Solberg Thorsen. "The electrification of the fleet of passenger cars is going quickly, and Norway is thereby rapidly moving towards becoming the first country in the world with a passenger car fleet dominated by electric cars."
Thats impossible (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Thats impossible (Score:4, Informative)
Electric cars don't work when its cold outside. Many random internet posters have assured me that this is true.
According to Norway's own study EVs lose on average 20% range in cold weather, so they obviously still work but are definitely also negatively affected by it.
In general, Norway's success with EVs is due to their government's policy which pushed EVs through massive incentives and legislation aimed at making life much easier for EV owners.
Countries that wish to reach similar numbers as Norway should take note and implement similar measures. Relying on the free market alone is not going to work in the timeframes most government have envisioned for EVs adoption.
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Countries that wish to reach similar numbers as Norway should take note and implement similar measures. Relying on the free market alone is not going to work in the timeframes most government have envisioned for EVs adoption.
Norway has a ridiculous amount of money in their oil funds and they have thrown a lot of it at incentivizing people to buy EV's and building out their network of chargers, there aren't many countries that have that kind of resources. Anyone buying an EV in Norway are entitled up to about $8000 in subsidies and tax breaks.
Although Norway currently has a problem, they don't have enough transmission capacity to keep up with the ever increasing demand of electricity due to the electrification and are now suppos
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Re: Thats impossible (Score:4, Interesting)
The US offers just $500 less than that. But there seems to be a concerted FUD campaign against EVs here.
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Considering all the kicking and dragging that has been going on in the US the last decade in regards to EV's I'm very surprised that IRS Section 30D managed to pass since it is quite generous.
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Re:Thats impossible (Score:5, Informative)
Norway also doesn't slap cars imported from China with tariffs, so they are cheaper.
The #1 model in Norway is the Model Y, made in Shanghai.
#2 is the Volvo EX30, made in Zhangjiakou (also China)
#3 is the Volkswagen ID.4, manufactured in Zwickau, Germany, and Anting, China.
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Norway also doesn't slap cars imported from China with tariffs, so they are cheaper.
I wouldn't use a trend that is less than a year old to define a country who has been leading this space for a decade. Tariffs and Chinese manufacturing have nothing to do with Norway's EV success.
Also I'm not sure where you get your numbers from but I see:
#1 model in Norway is the Model Y, made in Berlin (since 2022). The Chinese model is only dabbled in this market. It exists, but only to fill up a shortfall in Berlin production, it's not the primary supplier.
#2 model is the ID.4, made in Zwickau (the Chin
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Norway also doesn't slap cars imported from China with tariffs, so they are cheaper.
China massively subsidizes EV cars production. Domestic car manufacturers would need either similar levels of state aid or tariffs on China imports to be able to fairly compete.
Again, free market alone is not going to deliver on EVs: only legislation making EVs more convenient than ICE cars and massive subsidies will strong-arm the free market to deliver on them.
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How quickly people forget. The European energy crisis was triggered as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic and it was further worsened by Russia invading Ukraine. This is well established,
The only reason Europe scraped by during the energy crisis was that the winter was warmer than usual plus that the EC mandated a bunch of things to curtail energy and gas usage and stabilize energy prices.
The crisis also led to the highest inflation the EU has ever had with host off knock-on effects.
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I'm talking about a specific winter, the 2022-2023 winter
And I'm going to trust Deutscher Wetterdienst over someone I don't know: https://www.dwd.de/EN/press/pr... [www.dwd.de]
I shall also point out that Germany doesn't quality as northern Europe.
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>In general, Norway's success with EVs is due to their government's policy which pushed EVs through massive incentives and legislation aimed at making life much easier for EV owners.
Countries that wish to reach similar numbers as Norway should take note and implement similar measures. Relying on the free market alone is not going to work in the timeframes most government have envisioned for EVs adoption.
That is only part of the story. There is also the fact that the population has very different driving habits than US drivers. They drive about half the distance of US drivers. The road networks are not as dispersed as the US so deploying chargers is more practical. They are also wealthier so the prices are less of an issue. Very different people in very different driving circumstances.
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>In general, Norway's success with EVs is due to their government's policy which pushed EVs through massive incentives and legislation aimed at making life much easier for EV owners.
Countries that wish to reach similar numbers as Norway should take note and implement similar measures. Relying on the free market alone is not going to work in the timeframes most government have envisioned for EVs adoption.
That is only part of the story. There is also the fact that the population has very different driving habits than US drivers. They drive about half the distance of US drivers. The road networks are not as dispersed as the US so deploying chargers is more practical. They are also wealthier so the prices are less of an issue. Very different people in very different driving circumstances.
Yeah, I've driven around Norway a couple times and the experience was interesting. Most of the road network is coastal and highly linear, rather than the usual webwork of major highways. They don't even go around mountains, there's literally underground roundabouts... it's really cool, highly recommended. It's also very temperate in a lot of the country, again due to how coastal it is. A winter in Oslo is going to be very, very different than a winter in Chicago all things considered.
Somebody on here said t
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Plus the whole country is only about the same size as Arizona. Electric might work if you only drive 10 miles a day.
Electric works great if you match US early adopters. Wealthy enough to afford the EV in the first place, wealthy enough to own their own home so they can update it for EV charging. Every night these people park in their garage or under their carport and plug in. Every morning they wake up with a full charge. 250-300 miles available every morning.
Re: Thats impossible (Score:2)
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You get about a third of the range at around -30 and closer to a quarter at -40C, if you maintain reasonable cabin temperature but otherwise they're more or less usable (though coolant leaks and such are a thing). Goes up to about a half at -20C. So they're going to be decent in Oslo summer, and shitty in Kirkenes winter.
Battery degradation really kicks in when you use them like that though. Lithium batteries really don't like being used at the thermal extremes, and start to have permanent degradation to a
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You get about a third of the range at around -30 and closer to a quarter at -40C, if you maintain reasonable cabin temperature but otherwise they're more or less usable (though coolant leaks and such are a thing). Goes up to about a half at -20C. So they're going to be decent in Oslo summer, and shitty in Kirkenes winter.
It'll be fine in Kirkenes, where the average low in December is about -10C.
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You can tell someone is a green nutjob, because they don't understand how weather works.
You are fine when it's wind from certain directions, and then you're fucked when it's not. Which means that for someone who has to live through all those days such as a human being, rather than just being a bear and hibernating through them, you're fucked.
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You remind me of angelopshere, he also thought that we no longer get colder than -20C in winter. In real world on the other hand, people from those places cover their car radiators when driving in winter as a matter of norm. There are even specifically manufactured plastic covers for most popular car models for driving in that weather.
Where does this ignorance come from?
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People who live in such extremes tend to have block heaters for their ICE vehicles or keep them in a heated garage though, right? If your EV is kept warm and you just run to the grocery store at -40 (in this case F or C doesn't matter), I would think the loss of range and/or wear and tear wouldn't matter so much. It gets harder if you have to leave it parked at the office all day with no trickle-charge or heater; but what do people with ICEs do in such extreme environments? Is the block heater only neede
Re: Thats impossible (Score:3)
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Depends on a location. Here in Finland most of them pulse for two hours out of 24. I.e. you program it to start about an hour before you plan to start driving. In far north they will have different cycles through, but they definitely cannot be always on. Wiring in the ground is often not designed for that and will risk overheating and burning.
But that's more for cabin preheating than engine preheating nowadays. Modern engines are way better at extreme cold weather starts than old ones. And nowadays we have
Re: Thats impossible (Score:3)
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You can get a 12V heating blanket for that. Otherwise it's ass and hands.
Honestly, having ass and hands warmed on a cold day is magical.
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Obviously. That's why you have a scratch thingy to scrape it off your windows before you go. Surely you didn't think I was suggesting to drive your car while it's an igloo?
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I can tell you haven't actually ran a car in that weather. You don't get "frosting" because to get your car un-igloo'd, you need to heat the windshield. You scrape the outside, and melt the inside before you can start driving.
And to do that, you start the car, you set the ventilation to blow to the front (there's a literal button for that) and then you get out to scrape the ice off the outside. The inside will melt in the mean time. In really cold weather, that's often a ten minute exercise.
And then you jus
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I don't need to think about it, as I've been doing the process mentioned above for quarter of a century.
Funnily enough, you seem to agree with me, even through you pretend to disagree.
Me:
>because yes it will fog up otherwise (not frost, because fogging up will cause you to lose visibility quite a bit before fog starts to freeze).
You:
>because yes it will fog up otherwise (not frost, because fogging up will cause you to lose visibility quite a bit before fog starts to freeze).
And then you literally proc
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We see at least a few weeks of -40 every winter. A lot of older vehicles get plugged in because they just won't start otherwise, or if they are big diesels. But many vehicles start just fine in the cold these days. I never plug my SUV in. Remote start is a nice thing to have! You definitely do not want to drive a vehicle when it's that cold until it has run for at least a few minutes to start warming up get getting proper lubrication. If a vehicle won't start, don't crank for more than 15 seconds or s
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Usually diesels that don't start are the ones where it came from the south and still has mild winter grade diesel in. It becomes diesel gel and clogs the injectors.
If you use appropriate grade of winterized diesel, it will start just fine.
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Experience: lived in North Dakota and Alaska for over a decade.
It takes hours for a vehicle to cool down to problematic levels. It is a pollution problem long before it is a starting issue.
8 hours is enough though, so being able to plug in at work helps.
Good news is, the plugs to run block heaters can also charge EVs and keep them at operating temperature.
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Your petrol or diesel car doesn't like -40C either. At that temp everyone will be using plug in engine block heaters. An EV can do the same thing when it's plugged in.
Re: Thats impossible (Score:2)
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It's a big pain in the ass.
I'd suggest plugging it into a electrical socket instead.
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You're thinking older cars. Modern don't have that problem to anywhere near the same degree. The main problem nowadays actually comes from radiators being hit by air that's too cold.
That's why you have plastic covers for them in the North. Though a lot still use the old school cardboard.
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'Your petrol or diesel car doesn't like -40C either. At that temp everyone will be using plug in engine block heaters. '
Which Norway had by the hundred thousands on public parking space and STILL has, because ICE have problems with the cold.
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A third of the range is a massive exaggeration. Bjorn Nyland regularly tests EVs in -20C and -30C conditions, and doesn't experience that kind of range drop. It's more like about 20% loss of range maximum.
You might have been right back when the Nissan Leaf was new, but modern cars are nothing like that bad.
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'A third of the range is a massive exaggeration. Bjorn Nyland regularly tests EVs in -20C and -30C conditions, and doesn't experience that kind of range drop. It's more like about 20% loss of range maximum.'
Some ICE cars even lose 100% range drop if you do not use electric oil heaters.
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Nyland is a marketer for EVs, whereas those of us that travel north quite often have actual real life experience.
Again, there's a reason why those all those Norwegian Teslas are concentrated in Oslo and quite rare in the north outside summer time.
P.S. Funny part is that in this we now had everything from "you don't need to drive on freaky cold nights when it's -20C" to "EV marketer/fanboy has tested range degradation, and it's totally fine". Marketers' and fanboys' desperation to sell EVs is getting very re
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So you think he is lying when he does those tests? Secretly charging up or driving slowly to reduce the battery drain?
The flaw in that conspiracy theory is that he live streams the tests. The steam has a camera behind the windscreen, and a display from an OBD2 scanner showing the battery status, power consumption, charge rate, temperature etc.
It would have to be a pretty elaborate hoax for you to be right.
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No, I think he does what all smart marketers do. He sets up optimal environment.
Count the likely amount of layers he's wearing inside his car. There's a reason why normal people lose half to two thirds of battery in the end, while he doesn't. They do normal things, like heat the cabin to comfortable levels. Most EVs have to go to reisistive heating below around -5C. In -30C, you're going to be burning a lot of energy just to keep the cabin warm while driving at speed. And you will see that range indicator j
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He standardized on 21C in the car, with the system on auto. That's actually a degree over what I prefer.
In cars with a heat pump (most of them now) range loss due to heating is typically around 5%. He has done some tests in -20 to -30C where to runs it all night and averages the power consumption. A decently well insulated car needs around 0.7kW on average, if I recall. Of course it's lower when driving because the battery provides some heat.
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No idea then. Ask any EV owner that isn't extremely monetarily motivated to claim great numbers, they will tell you what they have observed. This is so bad that we actually had our customer complaint board address what is "reasonable range loss" some time ago because of how many people were complaining that they couldn't even make their daily commutes in earlier EVs that had batteries with stated ranges around 150km come winter time.
And no, it's not "five percent". That's what you lose compared to stated ra
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5% is for the heating alone. It's more due to lower driving efficiency. At motorway speeds maybe 30% total in a decently efficient EV, worst case.
Of course some EVs are not efficient, e.g. eTron. But people buying a barge should understand that, and they do charge fast.
It's just different to ICE, more convenient in some ways, less in others.
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If it was someone else, I'd ask if you got a bonus payment in the wake of EV market problems to advertise them the way you do.
But knowing your political leanings, I don't have to. You're the kind of guy who volunteers for NKVD service willingly, because you're a true believer. To the point where you will argue that EVs only lose 5% in range in cold winter time due to need to heat it. And when noted that this is obviously and self evident bullshit that anyone who has driven an EV ever knows, as the range cou
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You are just making it up now. I clearly said the heating was 5%. Everyone can see that.
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Compared to, say North Dakota in the winter, Norway is quite balmy. Sweden also has a lot of EVs on the road, but Sweden is also quite a bit warmer than parts of the midwest, despite its northern latitude. In other words they don't get quite as cold for so long.
Where I live in Alberta, when it's drops down below -20, range of EVs is cut about in half. But for a lot of the winter, it's not that cold, and so range is not cut nearly as much. But you do have to keep them plugged in at night if not for charg
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Electric cars don't work when its cold outside. Many random internet posters have assured me that this is true.
Norway is *not* cold. Just because you're far north doesn't automatically mean you are cold. The Norwegian current carries the warm water from the gulf stream to the coast which makes the weather there quite temperate, and only a couple of degrees colder than the UK. For the most part 90% of the population of Norway live in an area which has a mean minimum daily temperature similar to cities in Austria, or northern Italy, and barely below freezing point. Oslo's mean daily minimum gets to -4.5C in winter. St
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The range is good enough that it doesn't matter. Just like fossil cars lose range in the cold, but you can fill them up quickly.
Norway has plenty of fast chargers, and Nio battery swap stations that take about 4 and a half minutes.
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Is it generally even needed to charge on the go? One of the big advantages of electric cars is obviously that they can typically be charged at home, fast or not.
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Depends on how far you're driving between stops at home.
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It really depends on your driving profile. Just because some people only have short daily drives between ever the same two starting and end points, with some similarly short deviations to the shopping mall, does not mean that this applies to everyo
Norway's in top 10 oil producing countries (Score:2)
Norway's entire economy is based on extracting and exporting oil.
Skeptical of these stories, while factual, are just green advertising for the country.
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The car drives itself in, using cameras to align. A robot disconnects the battery from under the car and replaces it. Takes a few minutes and you stay in the car the whole time, don't even need to get out or get your hands dirty. All payment handled on the car's internal screen.
Re:Thats impossible (Score:5, Informative)
Winter gas contains ~1.7% less energy per unit of fuel.
The major reasons for reduced fuel economy in the winter are things that affect all cars: increased rolling resistance on the roads, increased air density (aerodynamic drag)
Indeed, a car at 20F is expected to have about 15% lower fuel economy than a car at 77F.
It's a little better than EVs- but not much.
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Flat out wrong.
You basically said the same thing
Where did you get the 15% from? Modern fuel injected engines make more power with colder air.
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You basically said the same thing
We didn't say the same thing.
They asserted the primary reason was reduction in fuel energy. This is patently false.
The primary reason are the reasons he said are not primary.
Where did you get the 15% from? Modern fuel injected engines make more power with colder air.
DoE.
Making more power does not in any way imply more efficiency.
They make more power because they can burn more gas, because there is more air.
Re: Thats impossible (Score:2)
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You can fill your gas engine quickly. With an EV, you have to do a full battery swap if you want equivalent re-fill speed.
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It takes *watts* to run light bulbs. It takes *kilowatts* to maintain velocity.
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You better tell Norway then!
https://www.caranddriver.com/f... [caranddriver.com]
Re: Thats impossible (Score:2)
Must be all that intense population density in Norway keeping them on electric.
Norway has abundance of electricity (Score:3)
Density (Score:3)
Also, about half the population of Norway live in the ten largest cities, so building out charging infrastructure is fairly easy.
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I thought I read somewhere that every citizen of Norway gets a stipend from offshore oil production. A country rich in resources like this, and small, could pull this off faster than larger, less well off, countries.
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You're telling us the secret, 'it's good to be rich'? :-)
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They could likewise generate hydrogen for fuel cell vehicles as well.
Sure, if they were stupid.
Hydrogen is just too much of a PITA. Maybe someday someone will have a cleverer way to handle it, like one of these technologies to absorb it into a metal powder or something that we've heard so much about so many times and then never seen develop into a product. But for now, it's just too problematic and batteries continually improve while hydrogen doesn't.
You know I think I'd rather see more Kei Trucks (Score:2)
I mean sure if you get hit by an SUV you're going to die but there's plenty of people putting about on motorcycles who can say the same thing. And those Kei Trucks get something like 40 mi to the gallon in Citi.
Whatever the case cars are rapidly becoming unaffordable and we're going to have to do something about that.
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And the like but I'm seriously doubting that's going to happen because big pickup trucks are a multi-billion dollar industry in America and one of the most profitable ones in existence. I mean sure if you get hit by an SUV you're going to die but there's plenty of people putting about on motorcycles who can say the same thing. And those Kei Trucks get something like 40 mi to the gallon in Citi. Whatever the case cars are rapidly becoming unaffordable and we're going to have to do something about that. You can't have a transportation system that half the population can't afford to use. At least not without massive social problems
You don't see many Kei vehicles in the US due to safety regulations [arstechnica.com] in most states. That said, I just discovered they're legal in mine, so I might look into one for my next vehicle.
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Surely you mean (Score:5, Funny)
Norway hits kilometerstone,
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In Norway its spelt kilometre.
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No. Kilometer is kilometer in both Bokmål [wiktionary.org] and Nynorsk [wiktionary.org].
Kilometre is British English.
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'In Norway its spelt kilometre.'
Everywhere "its" is spelled "it's". :-)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] - in daily use.
congratulations (Score:4, Insightful)
It's handy being a vastly wealthy petro-state.
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If you're somehow implying that people are magically getting petrol money then you should actually compare taxes and costs in America vs Norway. The purchasing power of Americans is higher, and the cost of vehicles is lower. How does that fit with your narrative when *people* are buying cars (not the government).
If you want to make an actual point, then point out that 90% of the population live in 3 cities making the ability to roll out charging infrastructure for the masses trivial, and cheap - again nothi
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It's handy being a vastly wealthy petro-state.
Like the United States?
haha oil (Score:2)
Norway is one of the largest fossil fuel producers in the world.
Re: scale (Score:2)
Norway isnâ(TM)t in the EU.
While its population might be small, Norway isnâ(TM)t that small. Itâ(TM)s 8th largest, and bigger than the UK, Italy and Poland.
Surely itâ(TM)s easier and more efficient to install infrastructure in a city?
Re: scale (Score:2)
To clarify: thatâ(TM)s 8th largest in Europe.
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Norway's total population is a bit of half that of Los Angeles County, in nearly 40 times the real estate.
Obviously, they'd made EVs work pretty well for them (though diesel is still more common that EV - EVs have only surpassed gasoline), but the conditions that made that happen are pretty unique to Norway.
Re: scale (Score:5, Informative)
I see these arguments a lot and they're kind of contradictory:
1. It won't work in the US because there's too many people in the US! Norway is a sparsely-populated country!
2. It won't work in the US because there's too few people in the US! The US is a sparsely populated country!
It's a dumb comparison because you can just take any given US state in isolation the same way you can take European countries in isolation. Norway is about the same size with the same population density as Utah, and like Utah has most of its population concentrated around one major city, and has about the same median income as Utah. (Norway is much richer in GDP per capita but the average joe actually buying a car makes about the same).
If Norway can do it then surely Utah can do it.
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Los Angeles County has nearly twice as many people as all of Norway (in an area about 1/40th the size), and pretty much everyone drives every day. Average commute is a bit longer in LA, average distance is a bit shorter. 63% of Angelinos rent, which means they really can't install a home charger. And a great deal of LA is . . . not a great neighborhood, and the average meth head will certainly try to steal the copper in a charger to get his next fix (it's happening already).
These are challenges the monkeys
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63% of Angelinos rent, which means they really can't install a home charger.
The problem of tenants exists in general, including in Norway. Norway enacted legislation that gives tenants the right to have charging points installed in their parking lots to address it.
Other countries need to also address the issue if they want similar results.
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Re: If Norway really cared about the environment.. (Score:2)
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So there is no effort to place conditions on how that cruide is refined?
You mean standards? There are standards on how crude oil is refined. International, industrial, etc.
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Right. So they are enablers, allowing all of their customers to pollute. Good job!,
So you knew all of that, then? So you chose to misrepresent the situation? Got it.
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