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Earth Transportation

Norway Hits Milestone as Electric Cars Surpass Petrol Vehicles (theguardian.com) 107

Posted by msmash from the step-in-the-right-direction dept.
Electric cars now outnumber petrol cars in Norway for the first time, an industry organisation has said, a world first that puts the country on track towards taking fossil fuel vehicles off the road. From a report: Of the 2.8m private cars registered in the Nordic country, 754,303 are all-electric, against 753,905 that run on petrol, the Norwegian road federation (OFV) said in a statement. Diesel models remain the most numerous at just under 1m, but their sales are falling rapidly. "This is historic. A milestone few saw coming 10 years ago," said OFV director Oyvind Solberg Thorsen. "The electrification of the fleet of passenger cars is going quickly, and Norway is thereby rapidly moving towards becoming the first country in the world with a passenger car fleet dominated by electric cars."

Norway Hits Milestone as Electric Cars Surpass Petrol Vehicles More | Reply

Norway Hits Milestone as Electric Cars Surpass Petrol Vehicles

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  • Thats impossible (Score:5, Funny)

    by Bill, Shooter of Bul ( 629286 ) on Friday September 20, 2024 @05:13PM (#64804053) Journal
    Electric cars don't work when its cold outside. Many random internet posters have assured me that this is true.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by bsolar ( 1176767 )

      Electric cars don't work when its cold outside. Many random internet posters have assured me that this is true.

      According to Norway's own study EVs lose on average 20% range in cold weather, so they obviously still work but are definitely also negatively affected by it.

      In general, Norway's success with EVs is due to their government's policy which pushed EVs through massive incentives and legislation aimed at making life much easier for EV owners.

      Countries that wish to reach similar numbers as Norway should take note and implement similar measures. Relying on the free market alone is not going to work in the timefram

      • Countries that wish to reach similar numbers as Norway should take note and implement similar measures. Relying on the free market alone is not going to work in the timeframes most government have envisioned for EVs adoption.

        Norway has a ridiculous amount of money in their oil funds and they have thrown a lot of it at incentivizing people to buy EV's and building out their network of chargers, there aren't many countries that have that kind of resources. Anyone buying an EV in Norway are entitled up to about $8000 in subsidies and tax breaks.

        Although Norway currently has a problem, they don't have enough transmission capacity to keep up with the ever increasing demand of electricity due to the electrification and are now suppos

        • What, not even the richest, most powerful, & greatest country in the world?

        • Re:Thats impossible (Score:5, Informative)

          by timeOday ( 582209 ) on Friday September 20, 2024 @07:01PM (#64804327)

          Norway has a ridiculous amount of money in their oil funds and they have thrown a lot of it at incentivizing people to buy EV's and building out their network of charger

          Norway also doesn't slap cars imported from China with tariffs, so they are cheaper.

          The #1 model in Norway is the Model Y, made in Shanghai.

          #2 is the Volvo EX30, made in Zhangjiakou (also China)

          #3 is the Volkswagen ID.4, manufactured in Zwickau, Germany, and Anting, China.

          • Norway also doesn't slap cars imported from China with tariffs, so they are cheaper.

            I wouldn't use a trend that is less than a year old to define a country who has been leading this space for a decade. Tariffs and Chinese manufacturing have nothing to do with Norway's EV success.

            Also I'm not sure where you get your numbers from but I see:

            #1 model in Norway is the Model Y, made in Berlin (since 2022). The Chinese model is only dabbled in this market. It exists, but only to fill up a shortfall in Berlin production, it's not the primary supplier.
            #2 model is the ID.4, made in Zwickau (the Chin

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by bsolar ( 1176767 )

            Norway also doesn't slap cars imported from China with tariffs, so they are cheaper.

            China massively subsidizes EV cars production. Domestic car manufacturers would need either similar levels of state aid or tariffs on China imports to be able to fairly compete.

            Again, free market alone is not going to deliver on EVs: only legislation making EVs more convenient than ICE cars and massive subsidies will strong-arm the free market to deliver on them.

        • There was no energy crisis.
          There was a hint of a gas crisis.

          • How quickly people forget. The European energy crisis was triggered as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic and it was further worsened by Russia invading Ukraine. This is well established,

            The only reason Europe scraped by during the energy crisis was that the winter was warmer than usual plus that the EC mandated a bunch of things to curtail energy and gas usage and stabilize energy prices.

            The crisis also led to the highest inflation the EU has ever had with host off knock-on effects.

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by zypres ( 939921 )

          Although Norway currently has a problem, they don't have enough transmission capacity to keep up with the ever increasing demand of electricity due to the electrification and are now supposedly going to buy transmission capacity from the neighboring country of Sweden which itself has had problems with transmission capacity between the north and south parts mostly due to lack of investment in new transmission capacity for decades since they could always "buy electricity from the neighboring countries if the need arise". Sounds like a good idea until you factor in that Sweden shuttered some nuclear reactors, all located in the south, and then the war in Ukraine came along with a water shortage shortly thereafter and suddenly there was an energy crisis in Europe.

          Electricity exports from Norway reached 25,792 gigawatt-hours in 2022. By comparison, the electricity imports to Norway amounted to 13,270 gigawatt-hours that year.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by drnb ( 2434720 )

        >In general, Norway's success with EVs is due to their government's policy which pushed EVs through massive incentives and legislation aimed at making life much easier for EV owners.

        Countries that wish to reach similar numbers as Norway should take note and implement similar measures. Relying on the free market alone is not going to work in the timeframes most government have envisioned for EVs adoption.

        That is only part of the story. There is also the fact that the population has very different driving habits than US drivers. They drive about half the distance of US drivers. The road networks are not as dispersed as the US so deploying chargers is more practical. They are also wealthier so the prices are less of an issue. Very different people in very different driving circumstances.

        • Also in many places they'll drive the cars to a train station for the rest of the commute. Often they may live closer to work as well. I suspect that when you get to rural areas that ICE vehicles are more common.

        • >In general, Norway's success with EVs is due to their government's policy which pushed EVs through massive incentives and legislation aimed at making life much easier for EV owners.

          Countries that wish to reach similar numbers as Norway should take note and implement similar measures. Relying on the free market alone is not going to work in the timeframes most government have envisioned for EVs adoption.

          That is only part of the story. There is also the fact that the population has very different driving habits than US drivers. They drive about half the distance of US drivers. The road networks are not as dispersed as the US so deploying chargers is more practical. They are also wealthier so the prices are less of an issue. Very different people in very different driving circumstances.

          Yeah, I've driven around Norway a couple times and the experience was interesting. Most of the road network is coastal and highly linear, rather than the usual webwork of major highways. They don't even go around mountains, there's literally underground roundabouts... it's really cool, highly recommended. It's also very temperate in a lot of the country, again due to how coastal it is. A winter in Oslo is going to be very, very different than a winter in Chicago all things considered.

          Somebody on here said t

      • Norway not only rewarded people for buying EVs but they penalized people for buying ICEs.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

      You get about a third of the range at around -30 and closer to a quarter at -40C, if you maintain reasonable cabin temperature but otherwise they're more or less usable (though coolant leaks and such are a thing). Goes up to about a half at -20C. So they're going to be decent in Oslo summer, and shitty in Kirkenes winter.

      Battery degradation really kicks in when you use them like that though. Lithium batteries really don't like being used at the thermal extremes, and start to have permanent degradation to a

      • You get about a third of the range at around -30 and closer to a quarter at -40C, if you maintain reasonable cabin temperature but otherwise they're more or less usable (though coolant leaks and such are a thing). Goes up to about a half at -20C. So they're going to be decent in Oslo summer, and shitty in Kirkenes winter.

        It'll be fine in Kirkenes, where the average low in December is about -10C.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

          You can tell someone is a green nutjob, because they don't understand how weather works.

          You are fine when it's wind from certain directions, and then you're fucked when it's not. Which means that for someone who has to live through all those days such as a human being, rather than just being a bear and hibernating through them, you're fucked.

      • People who live in such extremes tend to have block heaters for their ICE vehicles or keep them in a heated garage though, right? If your EV is kept warm and you just run to the grocery store at -40 (in this case F or C doesn't matter), I would think the loss of range and/or wear and tear wouldn't matter so much. It gets harder if you have to leave it parked at the office all day with no trickle-charge or heater; but what do people with ICEs do in such extreme environments? Is the block heater only neede

        • The public parking lots will have outlets for block heaters, but they cycle on for 10 minutes and off for 10. Also you get a ticket if you plug in anything other than a block heater. Also, since the mainstreaming of fuel injection, no one really thinks about plugging in any more because your vehicle will start fine down to -30c or so.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

            Depends on a location. Here in Finland most of them pulse for two hours out of 24. I.e. you program it to start about an hour before you plan to start driving. In far north they will have different cycles through, but they definitely cannot be always on. Wiring in the ground is often not designed for that and will risk overheating and burning.

            But that's more for cabin preheating than engine preheating nowadays. Modern engines are way better at extreme cold weather starts than old ones. And nowadays we have

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by caseih ( 160668 )

          We see at least a few weeks of -40 every winter. A lot of older vehicles get plugged in because they just won't start otherwise, or if they are big diesels. But many vehicles start just fine in the cold these days. I never plug my SUV in. Remote start is a nice thing to have! You definitely do not want to drive a vehicle when it's that cold until it has run for at least a few minutes to start warming up get getting proper lubrication. If a vehicle won't start, don't crank for more than 15 seconds or s

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

            Usually diesels that don't start are the ones where it came from the south and still has mild winter grade diesel in. It becomes diesel gel and clogs the injectors.

            If you use appropriate grade of winterized diesel, it will start just fine.

        • Experience: lived in North Dakota and Alaska for over a decade.
          It takes hours for a vehicle to cool down to problematic levels. It is a pollution problem long before it is a starting issue.
          8 hours is enough though, so being able to plug in at work helps.

          Good news is, the plugs to run block heaters can also charge EVs and keep them at operating temperature.

      • Your petrol or diesel car doesn't like -40C either. At that temp everyone will be using plug in engine block heaters. An EV can do the same thing when it's plugged in.

        • Except in an EV you will be plugging in all year long. It's a big pain in the ass.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

          You're thinking older cars. Modern don't have that problem to anywhere near the same degree. The main problem nowadays actually comes from radiators being hit by air that's too cold.

          That's why you have plastic covers for them in the North. Though a lot still use the old school cardboard.

        • 'Your petrol or diesel car doesn't like -40C either. At that temp everyone will be using plug in engine block heaters. '

          Which Norway had by the hundred thousands on public parking space and STILL has, because ICE have problems with the cold.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        A third of the range is a massive exaggeration. Bjorn Nyland regularly tests EVs in -20C and -30C conditions, and doesn't experience that kind of range drop. It's more like about 20% loss of range maximum.

        You might have been right back when the Nissan Leaf was new, but modern cars are nothing like that bad.

        • 'A third of the range is a massive exaggeration. Bjorn Nyland regularly tests EVs in -20C and -30C conditions, and doesn't experience that kind of range drop. It's more like about 20% loss of range maximum.'

          Some ICE cars even lose 100% range drop if you do not use electric oil heaters.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

          Nyland is a marketer for EVs, whereas those of us that travel north quite often have actual real life experience.

          Again, there's a reason why those all those Norwegian Teslas are concentrated in Oslo and quite rare in the north outside summer time.

          P.S. Funny part is that in this we now had everything from "you don't need to drive on freaky cold nights when it's -20C" to "EV marketer/fanboy has tested range degradation, and it's totally fine". Marketers' and fanboys' desperation to sell EVs is getting very re

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

            So you think he is lying when he does those tests? Secretly charging up or driving slowly to reduce the battery drain?

            The flaw in that conspiracy theory is that he live streams the tests. The steam has a camera behind the windscreen, and a display from an OBD2 scanner showing the battery status, power consumption, charge rate, temperature etc.

            It would have to be a pretty elaborate hoax for you to be right.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by caseih ( 160668 )

      Compared to, say North Dakota in the winter, Norway is quite balmy. Sweden also has a lot of EVs on the road, but Sweden is also quite a bit warmer than parts of the midwest, despite its northern latitude. In other words they don't get quite as cold for so long.

      Where I live in Alberta, when it's drops down below -20, range of EVs is cut about in half. But for a lot of the winter, it's not that cold, and so range is not cut nearly as much. But you do have to keep them plugged in at night if not for charg

    • Electric cars don't work when its cold outside. Many random internet posters have assured me that this is true.

      Norway is *not* cold. Just because you're far north doesn't automatically mean you are cold. The Norwegian current carries the warm water from the gulf stream to the coast which makes the weather there quite temperate, and only a couple of degrees colder than the UK. For the most part 90% of the population of Norway live in an area which has a mean minimum daily temperature similar to cities in Austria, or northern Italy, and barely below freezing point. Oslo's mean daily minimum gets to -4.5C in winter. St

      • Lolz.
        Coast, yes you are right.
        Most of Norway is mountains.
        And the east side of Norway the mountains go down to Sweden.
        And those areas are as cold as it is anywhere on the planet with similar latitudes.
        Yes, Siberia is colder - in Winter - and also warmer - in Summer. No golf stream to blame.

  • Norway has abundance of electricity (Score:3)

    by SethJohnson ( 112166 ) on Friday September 20, 2024 @05:21PM (#64804073) Homepage Journal
    Makes sense they would shift transportation to electric-based vehicles. More than 95% of the country's electricity is generated by hydroelectric dams. They could likewise generate hydrogen for fuel cell vehicles as well. In fact, during WW2, the Nazis invaded Norway in order to gain access to the Vemork Norsk Hydro Plant outside Rjukan so they could generate heavy water for their efforts to develop nuclear weapons. Great book about the allies sabotage of that facility - The Winter Fortress.

    • Also, about half the population of Norway live in the ten largest cities, so building out charging infrastructure is fairly easy.

    • I thought I read somewhere that every citizen of Norway gets a stipend from offshore oil production. A country rich in resources like this, and small, could pull this off faster than larger, less well off, countries.

    • They could likewise generate hydrogen for fuel cell vehicles as well.

      Sure, if they were stupid.

      Hydrogen is just too much of a PITA. Maybe someday someone will have a cleverer way to handle it, like one of these technologies to absorb it into a metal powder or something that we've heard so much about so many times and then never seen develop into a product. But for now, it's just too problematic and batteries continually improve while hydrogen doesn't.

  • And the like but I'm seriously doubting that's going to happen because big pickup trucks are a multi-billion dollar industry in America and one of the most profitable ones in existence.

    I mean sure if you get hit by an SUV you're going to die but there's plenty of people putting about on motorcycles who can say the same thing. And those Kei Trucks get something like 40 mi to the gallon in Citi.

    Whatever the case cars are rapidly becoming unaffordable and we're going to have to do something about that.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by aitikin ( 909209 )

      And the like but I'm seriously doubting that's going to happen because big pickup trucks are a multi-billion dollar industry in America and one of the most profitable ones in existence. I mean sure if you get hit by an SUV you're going to die but there's plenty of people putting about on motorcycles who can say the same thing. And those Kei Trucks get something like 40 mi to the gallon in Citi. Whatever the case cars are rapidly becoming unaffordable and we're going to have to do something about that. You can't have a transportation system that half the population can't afford to use. At least not without massive social problems

      You don't see many Kei vehicles in the US due to safety regulations [arstechnica.com] in most states. That said, I just discovered they're legal in mine, so I might look into one for my next vehicle.

    • If any industry that is helping Kei trucks, it is the US automakers. Pricing their trucks at $50,000+ is driving their loyal customers away. While Kei trucks may not be street legal everywhere, they are useful on farms where many trucks are used.

  • Surely you mean (Score:5, Funny)

    by Rosco P. Coltrane ( 209368 ) on Friday September 20, 2024 @05:41PM (#64804141)

    Norway hits kilometerstone,

  • congratulations (Score:4, Insightful)

    by argStyopa ( 232550 ) on Friday September 20, 2024 @08:31PM (#64804509) Journal

    It's handy being a vastly wealthy petro-state.

    • If you're somehow implying that people are magically getting petrol money then you should actually compare taxes and costs in America vs Norway. The purchasing power of Americans is higher, and the cost of vehicles is lower. How does that fit with your narrative when *people* are buying cars (not the government).

      If you want to make an actual point, then point out that 90% of the population live in 3 cities making the ability to roll out charging infrastructure for the masses trivial, and cheap - again nothi

    • It's handy being a vastly wealthy petro-state.

      Like the United States?

  • Norway? So what! (Score:1, Insightful)

    by p51d007 ( 656414 )
    Look at the nation of Norway. 148,729 sq mi of land, population just over 5,000,000. It's the size of Montana! With a population of Minnesota! Not counting Alaska or Hawaii, the 48 states land area is 3,120,428 sq mi! That's over TWENTY TIMES the size and over SIXTY times the population! It will take DECADES to "beef up" and expand the power grid if you want 100% of America to run on EV's (which isn't possible or practicle)

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by dskoll ( 99328 )

      Repeating comment above.

      Of course not. Nothing that works in other countries could ever possibly work in the United States, so it's not even worth trying. Sure, the USA has the worst healthcare system of wealthy nations and the highest gun-death rate in the G20 and one of the least-trustworthy voting systems in the developed world, but THE USA CAN'T TRY THINGS THAT OTHER COUNTRIES DO BECAUSE IT'S UNAMERICAN AND THERE ARE REASONS IT WILL FAIL FOR SURE FOR SURE.

  • Norway is one of the largest fossil fuel producers in the world.

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