US To Reportedly Sanction 200 More Chinese Chip Firms (tomshardware.com) 82
The U.S. is preparing to impose new sanctions targeting 200 Chinese chipmakers and potentially restricting the export of High Bandwidth Memory (HBM). The move is intended to further hinder China's semiconductor and AI advancements. Tom's Hardware reports: The update sheds light on the Biden administration's recent efforts to impose stricter regulations on chip manufacturers in China. The latest swarm of sanctions reportedly targets roughly 200 Chinese firms. US companies are prohibited from exporting select technologies or products to the targeted firms. The report suggests that the US Department of Commerce aims to push these new regulations before the Thanksgiving break - or November 28. Neither the Department of Commerce nor the Chamber of Commerce responded to Reuters' request for comments.
Moreover, another wave of sanctions is set to follow in December - targeting the export of HBM (High Bandwidth Memory) - primarily to choke China's advance in the AI domain. The impacts of these restrictions are materializing given that Huawei's Kirin SoCs and Ascend AI accelerators will reportedly remain stuck at 7nm technology until 2026 as SMIC fails to procure cutting-edge Extreme Ultraviolet (EUV) machines from ASML.
Moreover, another wave of sanctions is set to follow in December - targeting the export of HBM (High Bandwidth Memory) - primarily to choke China's advance in the AI domain. The impacts of these restrictions are materializing given that Huawei's Kirin SoCs and Ascend AI accelerators will reportedly remain stuck at 7nm technology until 2026 as SMIC fails to procure cutting-edge Extreme Ultraviolet (EUV) machines from ASML.
That will make them even stronger (Score:4, Informative)
ProTip: Protectionism only works if the other side cannot step up. The Chinese can. Unfortunately. Hence this move is as stupid as they come.
Re:That will make them even stronger (Score:5, Insightful)
Have you been listening? Trump is planning far more stupid things in this space....
Re:That will make them even stronger (Score:5, Funny)
Right now, given the dismally comedic nature of the USA's leadership, the 'dems should just go ahead and put sanctions and tariffs on just about everything. Then Biden can sit back in his retirement palace and just enjoy the show as Trump has to *stop* sanctioning and to *reduce* tariffs on China et. al.
If nothing else, it'll confuse the thickies who voted for the orange retard in the first place.
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Oh no!!!! Whatever would USA based entrepreneurs do if a fair playing field was forced upon the global scene?
What does "fair" mean to you?
China is employing slave labor, that's an unfair advantage right?
But wait, we use slave labor here, and are gearing up to use a lot more of it, and child labor too (this has ALREADY increased many-fold) so we can compete. To you that is fair, right?
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Grow up, you lost. You're a weak man, seek help.
I tried seeking help, but the people I tried seeking help from were too stupid to help themselves.
Offshoring pollution and labor is not the way. USA can do it cleaner and better and support the home team.
Can, yes. Will? No. That's why drumpf is working to destroy the EPA and other agencies which control emissions, so we don't have to do it cleanly.
Being contrarian to be contrarian is tired, not wired.
Then go back to sleep already.
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Re: That will make them even stronger (Score:2)
If I were in an echo chamber, you wouldn't be there. QED you are an idiot
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It was only Chinese citizens affected, gringos got off the plane with no problem, not even questions about their health or where they traveled.
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Re:That will make them even stronger (Score:4, Insightful)
Do you remember how well that worked? Any response to new pathogens will be even more anemic now that RFK Jr. will be in control of the HHS. Recall he does not believe in vaccines. Were he to succeed in eliminating them, why would any sane person want to generate sprogs in the U.S. knowing they could easily die from measles, etc., or be maimed for life by polio.
That seems run counter to el Bunko and his Merry Band of Racists who want more healthy white people who aren't poor and ready to practice goosestepping their brains in rhythm to each other like good little Maggots.
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You can still get vaccinated. I guess this will just widen the gap between the stupid majority and the non-stupid minority. Unfortunately, the stupid generally have more children so a non-stupid win by attrition is probably off the table.
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Vaccines primarily work by reducing r0 through herd immunity. Individuals vaccinating may get a reduction in symptoms, or they may not get much effect at all. And if everybody around them are unvaccinated, the viral loads get so immense vaccines at best take the edge off of the infection.
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You can still get vaccinated.
For now, and soon, at one's own expense. I wonder which will happen first, medicare and medicaid destroyed completely, or they just won't pay for vaccinations? And oh yeah, how much more do we pay for vaccines than the rest of the world?
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And oh yeah, how much more do we pay for vaccines than the rest of the world?
This is a feature. Well, at least it is if you are a stock holder or private equity guy investing in health/drug industry. This is the key problem with the US health system, that the inefficiencies and problems are extremely profitable to some people, and those people have a very strong influence on politicians and judges.
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You can still get vaccinated. I guess this will just widen the gap between the stupid majority and the non-stupid minority. Unfortunately, the stupid generally have more children so a non-stupid win by attrition is probably off the table.
Vaccines are only economically viable because almost everyone receives them, they get subsidized to reduce price, and the government indemnifies the producers against liability through VICP.
The US also promotes vaccination around the world through financial aid, supply vaccines to developing countries, and personnel to administer them. This not only is a nice thing to do, it helps protect us by making outbreaks less common world-wide.
Do you think RFK, notoriously against vaccines, is going to maintain that
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No so fast, Skippy. All JFK Jr. need do is lean on NiH and CDC and new vaccines will not get approvals. And there will be Maggots controlling those agencies, and they do not care about poor people.
The article here: https://www.washingtonpost.com... [washingtonpost.com]
shows just how to go about it.: "Kennedy has said he “won’t take away” vaccines, but he could remove shots he doesn’t like from the CDC’s immunization schedule, such as those for measles, mumps and rubella or hepatitis B."
And the Magg
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I'm sure he can find a way. If there's any truth to what he says, then vaccines will be back shortly after safety improvements. If there's no truth, then vaccines will be back in 4 years. It's not long enough to cause problems unless we happen upon another pandemic.
Moreover, he can't stop people from getting vaccinated. I mean, we can't stop people from injecting themselves with illicit drugs, how is he going to stop people doing it with vaccines?
Besides, the real damage has already been done. There's now a
Re:That will make them even stronger (Score:4, Informative)
Good thing Biden is doing this. If it were Trump, it would be widely denounced as racist. Remember when he stopped flights from China to stop COVID?
Yeah I do. I remember that he specifically did not quarantine US citizens coming from China which is why it was called racist. You seem to think the criticism of Trump is because he's not Biden rather than actual criticism being he's doing a fucking shit job with shit justifications that in some cases look to be purely racism... which shouldn't surprise anyone who has heard him speak.
Incidentally Trump was proposing tariffs on China this week as well. What for do you ask? Was it state aid for companies? Was it corporate espionage? Was it anything to do with the point of tariffs? Nope, just because the Chinese failed to impose the death penalty on people caught supplying fentanyl.
Trump's problem is he sees the things that presidents are capable of doing while having no fucking clue what or why those things are. e.g. a quarantine based paperwork rather than universally applied based on source.
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What is it like living in an echo chamber? Do ear plugs help you sleep at night from all the voices?
Don't know, never tried living in one. But do show me a source countering the claims, including a source showing that Trump's COVID restrictions were not actually setup the way they were. I'd be interesting what an AI hallucination you can come up with to gaslight the rest of the world.
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Oh interesting, suddenly even the AC doesn't want to reply. I'm shocked.
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ProTip: Protectionism only works if the other side cannot step up. The Chinese can. Unfortunately.
To an extent, but so far no one but ASML have cracked EUV lithography. Intel have pushed DUV further than anyone, working well at about 10nm, but that's probably as far as it'll go. The only alternative is Canon's NIL, which has just launched after 20 years in development but is as yet unproven.
China is very good at electronics manufacturing, and competing is very hard because the deep, complex supply chains, e
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China does not need to replicate what ASML can do to be able to compete.
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China does not need to replicate what ASML can do to be able to compete.
If the Chinese want to compete with anybody that makes 7 nm, 5 nm and 3 nm nodes they are going to have to replicate what ASML does with their EUV lithography machines lithography or independently develop a functional equivalent if they can't buy EUV machines from ASML. As things stand Beijing seems really pissed over the Netherlands ordering ASML to cease maintaining even the older DUV machines they already sold to China so I expect there is quite a lot of fire where that smoke comes from [asiafinancial.com]. Not that I'm hol
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China wants to compete. Soundbits like "7nm, 5nm and 3nm" are irrelevant. With the current pathetic state of software, they can probably do better in most cases if they just focus on the software side. They will certainly be able to do good enough.
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China wants to compete. Soundbits like "7nm, 5nm and 3nm" are irrelevant. With the current pathetic state of software, they can probably do better in most cases if they just focus on the software side.
What evidence is there of that? Last I heard their forks of Linux have all been shitty, and every piece of software I have ever got from China (they often come with shitty little pieces of hardware like micro-keyboards) has been absolute trash even if you put language issues aside.
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Well, in that case there is no need to worry and all these sanctions are not needed anyways, are they?
My take is that most commercial trash is commercial trash in China as well. But there is not just the commercial trash.
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So far they haven't. Rather the contrary.
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In that case, why the sanctions?
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To prevent them from getting high technology to compensate for that they can't write software.
I'm not sure how you're reasoning here.
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That "argument" is just bullshit. The bad quality of the reasoning applied makes it obvious this is domestic political posturing, not anything that is intended to have a real effect.
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Yet it has a real effect, your assertions notwithstanding.
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https://www.semiconductors.org... [semiconductors.org]
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You probably didn't notice it because you have your head up your ass, but there has been significant investment in creating chip fabs inside the U.S. - no we are not 100% there yet, but there is progress and huge investments happening. Go look up "the CHIPS act" of 2022. Just because you don't think it's happening doesn't mean it isn't, because well... you're an idiot. https://www.semiconductors.org... [semiconductors.org]
Insults won't help you beat China. However, putting aside the copium, shutting the fuck up and competing might.
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Compete where? The issue is what are you trying to achieve. Are you trying to prevent China from having the capability to build advanced weapons or mobile infrastructure? Then you're absolutely right.
Are you trying to prevent China from competing with Intel or NVIDIA, then you're absolutely wrong. Some industries rely heavily on cutting edge silicon manufacture. Most industries don't. You can't lump the entire country together in the one phrase "able to compete".
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It will be interesting to see what sanctions do to things like China's AI efforts. American companies seem to have decided that throwing computing power at AI is the key to success. That's very rarely been the case in computing. If restricting China's access to processors encourages them to put more emphasis on developing better algorithms or innovative hardware it very well could be just shoving them into a big win.
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China does not need to replicate what ASML can do to be able to compete.
To compete how? They can solve the computation problem for their research clusters by throwing literally twice as much hardware at it, but they can't solve the problem that their chips are slower than ours so nobody will want to buy them. Who are they going to sell to, Russia? Nobody else is desperate enough to buy old technology. And Russia is having cash flow problems...
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They don't export a lot of chips, most of them are used domestically to build products which are then exported. Are you going to skip buying the latest shiny because it only has a 7 nm chip rather than 4 nm? (If you are then you're part of a market sector too small to pay much attention to.)
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Nobody will want to buy them? People already do. Performance per watt isn't the only metric people care about.
Most chips sold are not made on a cutting edge process.
Re: That will make them even stronger (Score:2)
Nobody is trying to compete with them on those chips. Try to keep up.
Re: That will make them even stronger (Score:2)
If I wanted old and slow I could get that from anyone.
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It's a hell of a gamble to assume that China won't develop competitive technology.
The have in telecoms, radio, batteries, vehicles, self driving, aircraft, weapons, and are getting close on rocketry. In fact their space programme has done some firsts and NASA is now rushing to get anything at all back from Mars because it looks like China will be first to do that as well.
Oh yeah and Wukong was a AAA game, pretty well received, so now all the western game devs and panicking. Actually Chinese GPUs are coming
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"Gamble"? I would call it "utterly stupid". Because, first, they do not actually have to develop the same tech. They just have to develop something that works as well or even only is "good enough". With the current bloat and inefficiency in software, they probably can make better products with worse base-tech if they simply focus on that. Remember that currently 10 year old CPUs still run most things just fine and that is the 10...14nm generation.
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The have in telecoms, radio, batteries, vehicles,
Yes.
self driving,
Debatable. As in they are looking to be competitive in an area of self driving that I think is fundamentally flawed and won't succeed.
aircraft,
Kinda, but only kinda. The Comac 919 is a big step forward, but it's still a bit behind, 10% or so in fuel burn compared to the A320 Neo. There are only so many gains to be had, they will catch up eventually. It does of course rely on LEAP turbofans for that as well, so it has state of the art western
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Let's also not forget that China's lead in telecoms came from taking IP from Nortel. They didn't have to do any of the work to get to near that point, they copied all of the basic research. That lead is temporary unless they manage to copy a bunch of data from someone else for the next surge. I wouldn't rule that out of course, but the idea that China has superior research or engineering is daft, and that is what it takes to move tech forwards. The battery chemistry research is also mostly happening outside
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Let's also not forget that China's lead in telecoms came from taking IP from Nortel.
That's just an outright lie. Sorry drinkypoo, but it is.
They were accused of copying some head files that were used for interoperability. If that was enough to destroy Nortel, their tech was shit anyway. And weren't we on the side of headers and trivial code not being copywritable anyway, as Sun found out when trying to sue Google over Java source files?
That didn't get them ahead, R&D did. Huawei have many key patents on telecomms tech, especially wireless. It can't be stolen because they invented it, i
Re: That will make them even stronger (Score:2)
"That's just an outright lie. Sorry drinkypoo, but it is.
They were accused of copying some head files that were used for interoperability"
You're lying about what was claimed while accusing me of lying.
Guess what I think of that?
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They haven't really though. Yes, in telecoms, audio and radio, where fairly low tech electronics are used, but they're not doing great on the cutting edge. Never have, and they have problems doing so in large part due to a culture and society which rewards shortcuts and cheating, and at the same time punishes successful entrepreneurs.
In GPU's, games, software and the like, they are not coming along at all. Yes, there is Wukong (which uses UE5, but rather badly), and some gachas, but not much else. Again, th
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5G and WiFi 7 are cutting edge. 4096-QAM is insane. They did a lot of work with operating below the noise floor as well.
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No consumer RF is cutting edge, except satellite, so no. What's cutting edge today are semiconductors in CPU's, GPU's, NN engines and the like. Software such as OS'es, Deep Learning (and derivatives such as LLM's), active cybersecurity efforts. Additive machining of durable materials, and the like.
In military it gets more complex, but outside of some material sciences and drones China hasn't really shown much which is up with the rest. There are a lot of unknowns here though, as they have new stealth planes
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I don't think you know a lot about consumer RF... It's not just the technology itself, it's the ability to cost reduce it and make it reliable on consumer channels, and then mass produce the chips.
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I don't think you're getting the point. The claim was that denying China access to cutting edge technology will lead to them making it themselves.
Cutting edge technology. Not mass produced consumer goods.
China will continue to be capable of manufacturing mass produced consumer goods, and iteratively improve on it. That's not in question, and nobody except you pretends that's even something we're actually talking about.
What they will not be able to make are NN specific high performance chips, capable operati
Hypocrisy (Score:3)
All these sanctions and tariffs come oddly from people who are always expatiating about the marvels of free market capitalism and free trade.
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They do not come from the free traders, very few of which support el Bunko. They do, however, come from the rich folk who do support him knowing full well how they will profit from a captive pop.
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All these sanctions and tariffs come oddly from people who are always expatiating about the marvels of free market capitalism and free trade.
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It's funny how the only time they actually thrive on competition is when they can bully it.
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It makes more sense if you append "for me, not you" to the end of their sentences.
Not even wrong. (Score:2)
All these sanctions and tariffs come oddly from people who are always expatiating about the marvels of free market capitalism and free trade.
You're not wrong but that doesn't mean national security doesn't exist or matter. It's all about priorities and one priority is simply above the other.
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Shouldn't we be encouraging them to develop LLMs? (Score:2)
As long as our country is losing phenomenal amounts of money to this incredible boondoggle, why are we encouraging them to avoid sharing our pain?
Re: Shouldn't we be encouraging them to develop LL (Score:2)
This does not matter (Score:2)
Everything - and I mean everything - in China is owned by the Chinese government. If one Chinese owned company is allowed to import such chips, they will transfer them to others.
Ridoculous (Score:2)