Coffee at Highest Price in 47 years (semafor.com) 188
An anonymous reader shares a report: Coffee beans hit their highest price in 47 years, driven by bad weather in Vietnam and Brazil, the biggest producers of robusta and arabica beans respectively.
Brazil saw its worst drought in 70 years this year followed by heavy rains, raising fears that next season's output will drop, further pinching already tight global supplies. Vietnam has itself had three years of low output.
Arabica beans hit $3.18 a pound on Wednesday, leading Nestle, the world's biggest coffee company, to increase prices. As well as climate concerns, future prices are being raised by worries about tariffs: Roasters "will try to import now, because otherwise you will be paying tariffs later," one trade analyst told the Financial Times.
Brazil saw its worst drought in 70 years this year followed by heavy rains, raising fears that next season's output will drop, further pinching already tight global supplies. Vietnam has itself had three years of low output.
Arabica beans hit $3.18 a pound on Wednesday, leading Nestle, the world's biggest coffee company, to increase prices. As well as climate concerns, future prices are being raised by worries about tariffs: Roasters "will try to import now, because otherwise you will be paying tariffs later," one trade analyst told the Financial Times.
Biden at it again (Score:5, Funny)
future prices are being raised by worries about tariffs: Roasters "will try to import now, because otherwise you will be paying tariffs later," one trade analyst told the Financial Times.
Fucking Joe. Thanks for threatening the world with tariffs, Joe!
Re: (Score:3)
Consider yourself lucky.
Brazil is the biggest coffee exporter and is not a target for punitive tariffs.
I'm a tea drinker. The biggest tea exporter is China.
Time to stock up.
Cup of Joe (Score:3)
"Joe even made a cup of Joe expensive"
He cooked coffee plants with space lasers! [independent.co.uk]
Tariffs? Seriously? (Score:5, Insightful)
As well as climate concerns, future prices are being raised by worries about tariffs
Trump proclaims that he "loves tariffs" which is stupid, but I have hard time believing that even he could be that stupid. Exactly what coffee growers are there in the U.S. that he is trying to "protect?"
But apparently the futures markets believe he is actually that stupid. We'll see.
Re:Tariffs? Seriously? (Score:5, Interesting)
Trump proclaims that he "loves tariffs" which is stupid, but I have hard time believing that even he could be that stupid.
He honestly believes tariffs are paid by the other countries. But then again he did somehow manage to bankrupt several casinos.
Exactly what coffee growers are there in the U.S. that he is trying to "protect?"
Some coffee is grown in Hawaii but on the global scale its closer to a rounding error.
But apparently the futures markets believe he is actually that stupid. We'll see.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/p... [pbs.org]
Re: (Score:3)
I don't think you're giving him enough credit. Tariffs are a wonderful campaign promise. They're a tax that the people love. They think you're fighting for their jobs, protecting them from evil foreigners, AND you can also promise tax cuts or more spending and not look delusional. Win win.
As for actually implementing them, well, you might want to be careful if you want to get re-elected. But if you don't have to worry about that, go nuts.
Re:Tariffs? Seriously? (Score:5, Funny)
Thank God for Trump tariffs! Now I'm going to take an appreciating look at all of those now protected US factories that are producing every durable consumer good needed and desired in our modern world...
(scans the horizon)..(DESPERATELY scans the horizon...)
Uh oh... +_+
Re:Tariffs? Seriously? (Score:5, Insightful)
Trump proclaims that he "loves tariffs" which is stupid, but I have hard time believing that even he could be that stupid.
Have you even tried to watch one of his rallies? I had to turn it off because it was nothing but incoherent stream-of-consciousness rambling. I really don't get the appeal of the guy, other than the fact that a substantial portion of our electorate just absolutely loathes Democrats.
I'd say it's probably a stretch at this point to assume Trump's age addled mind can even contemplate the process of brewing coffee, let along where it comes from.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Oh, modded "troll" because I pointed out the president-elect is fucking senile. The man performed mock oral sex on a microphone [c-span.org], and also randomly danced for a half hour at a campaign event. [cnn.com] During his previous administration, he stored classified documents in a bathroom. [youtube.com] You think his mind has improved with age?
Obviously, enough of the American public was either ignorant to all this or simply just didn't care, because Trump won the election. The American public being collectively willing to let this al
Re:Tariffs? Seriously? (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, I'm banking on the "incompetent" part saving us. If he brought in competent people instead of going for the suck-ups, the next four years would likely end up pretty bad.
Re: Tariffs? Seriously? (Score:2)
Re:Tariffs? Seriously? (Score:4, Informative)
2016 - 2020 was a lot better than 2020 - 2024.
By what metric, and in what capacity is it the result of federal government rather than international macroeconomics?
The only thing you've done is shown the world how incapable you are of thinking by lumping a period together as "bad" or "good". If you actually had a brain you'd focus on policy and effect.
Re:Tariffs? Seriously? (Score:5, Insightful)
By just less than 50% of the popular vote and, as of Nov 20, about a 1.62% margin (2.5M votes) over Harris -- so *not* a "landslide" or a "mandate".
The American public being collectively willing to let this all slide ...
Well, 49.9% of them anyway -- for now. This will probably change once his tariffs take effect and he starts deporting all the migrant farm and construction workers and prices for imported goods and new housing start climbing.
For example, several articles note that about 70% of things sold at Walmart are imported, usually from China or India, and a LOT of people, including those who voted for him, shop at Walmart. Several companies including Walmart and Home Depot have already said they're getting ready to raise prices because of impending tariffs.
Re:Tariffs? Seriously? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well when group A loathes group B, you its pretty much ensures group B will eventually loathe group A.
You don't have to understand why people like Trump, Just accept they do and they don't have to be morons, or evil to do so.
I have guesses why people support Trump, my best guess is that they have seen decades of their watching their jobs go overseas, and they just want a change, any change since the current system isn't working for them. They are voting the other people out not voting Trump in. But I am sure there are multiple reasons to vote for Trump and I am just speculating.
Re:Tariffs? Seriously? (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't have to understand why people like Trump, Just accept they do and they don't have to be morons, or evil to do so.
It just makes you lose faith in democracy when someone can be a terrible candidate by objective standards and a good portion of the electorate is still "that's my guy!"
To use a car analogy, as much as I don't like the Tesla Model 3 that I test drove a little over a year ago, I'd still admit that it's a perfectly serviceable car for someone who doesn't mind all of Tesla's unconventional design choices. It will get you to and from work, haul your groceries, and do pretty much all the things you'd expect out of a modern mid-size sedan. I can totally imagine someone else being completely satisfied with it; it's just not for me.
I can't do the same with Trump. Even if I was a hardcore conservative, I couldn't imagine believing that Trump would deliver the change I desired. It's clearly obvious his mental state is failing. To continue the car analogy, it's like someone was thrilled that they'd just bought a rusty scrap heap from the local buy-here-pay-here lot, it's leaking oil and barely runs, and when I tell them they've likely just wasted their money, the owner of the new-to-them car just tells me "fuck off, this is a great car!"
Lose faith in Democray? Was Re:Tariffs? Seriously? (Score:2)
Winston Churchill is supposed to have said something along the lines of Democracy is a terrible form of government, it's just better than all the others. I tend to agree with that. When people say they've lost faith in democracy, what do they plan to replace it with? Democracy can work pretty damn well! But it has to be maintained! My perception is that various special interest groups gradually game the system and weaken it.
I saw a Scientific American Frontiers TV documentary many years back about a gu
Re: (Score:2)
It just makes you lose faith in democracy when someone can be a terrible candidate by objective standards and a good portion of the electorate is still "that's my guy!"
The reason it works (despite the obvious problems you pointed out) is because alternative methods of choosing the leader have larger drawbacks. Hereditary monarchy? Oligarchy? National examination? All can be (and will be) gamed.
Re:Tariffs? Seriously? (Score:5, Insightful)
I have lost faith in what the world calls democracy years ago, you don't get a say, you get to choose between what you believe it the least worse of the candidates. And after they are elected they do whatever they want, no requirement to actually try to deliver their promises. I believe its just there to appease the masses into thinking they actually have a significant say in what happens.
What democracy really provides (assuming it is not literally corrupted), and the reason it is the worst form of government next to all of the other ones we have tried, is this: it gives us the ability to kick a leader out without the need for a violent revolution. It is a check against absolute power. Truly, this is an important thing.
If a citizen was under the misconception that democracy was about selecting the best leader possible (my own youthful misconception), or giving citizens a say in governing (that's direct democracy, not representative democracy), that's not entirely the fault of the citizen given how zealously our society indoctrinates democracy as the one true form of government... but democracy selects based on a popularity contest, always has, always will. Our representative democracy(ies) gives the keys to the nation to the winner, and they are free to do what they want (within the bounds of the law [including rewriting the law]). What is popular in a given time changes, and our current times... well they are what they are.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Trump proclaims that he "loves tariffs" which is stupid, but I have hard time believing that even he could be that stupid.
Plenty of stupid people like tariffs, and Trump cares more about his ideas being popular than sensible.
H.L. Mencken once said that every complex problem has a solution that is simple, obvious, and wrong.
Tariffs are one of those solutions. It takes at least five minutes to understand why tariffs don't work, which is more intellectual effort than most voters are willing to exert.
Exactly what coffee growers are there in the U.S. that he is trying to "protect?"
Hawaii grows coffee.
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As well as climate concerns, future prices are being raised by worries about tariffs
Trump proclaims that he "loves tariffs" which is stupid, but I have hard time believing that even he could be that stupid. Exactly what coffee growers are there in the U.S. that he is trying to "protect?"
But apparently the futures markets believe he is actually that stupid. We'll see.
Didn't your people rebel over additional taxes imposed on a hot beverage? When will we see the Larger Than Usual Charleston Coffee Kerfuffle?
Tax policy that is mostly ignored (Score:2)
Didn't your people rebel over additional taxes imposed on a hot beverage?
I don't know who "your people" is supposed to refer to here but there is a bigger picture that bears mention. This is not an issue of paying more tax of any specific item. It has everything to do with stupid, myopic, and deceptive tax policies that raise the tax burden on consumers in the lower 80% of the income earners in the country in the name of "protecting" jobs or whatever in some industry which mostly doesn't even exist.
And you can bet whatever you have in your wallet if such proposal does go thr
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I don't know who "your people" is supposed to refer to here
Then why are you replying?
"your people", very obviously, refers to Americans. You are commenting on a US site about an article about coffee prices in the US. You don't even need the Boston Tea Party reference, which you also seem to have missed.
Re: Tariffs? Seriously? (Score:2)
"Exactly what coffee growers are there in the U.S. that he is trying to "protect?""
The one that comes to mind is Kona from Hawaii. I'm not quite sure how much of an impact tariffs on Mexico, Canada, and China would have on coffee beans, but it doesn't seem like it would have enough impact to protect the wildly overpriced Kona coffee market. They're fine. Maybe above average. But they're like 100% more expensive in many cases.
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Kona coffee is delicious, and well worth the price... in Hawaii. I wouldn't call Jamaican Blue Mountain weirdly overpriced though. Just overpriced. Weirdly overpriced would be kopi luwak.
Re: Tariffs? Seriously? (Score:3)
Kona has a much better marketing budget. And it seems to have worked.
Kona's good. It is not in the top tier. It earned its reputation before the modern market where people can get imported coffee from anywhere around the world.
Kona might compare favorably to Columbian, but it's sort of meh compared to many of the beans from places like Ethiopia.
Re: Tariffs? Seriously? (Score:2)
https://coffeechronicler.com/k... [coffeechronicler.com]
Re: Tariffs? Seriously? (Score:2)
Re: Tariffs? Seriously? (Score:4, Informative)
Import duties encourage local production. That translates into more local employment and a better foreign exchange balance. This is economics 101.
No, actually it's not. You apparently have never taken a course in economics, because pretty much all economists, starting right with Adam Smith, agree that import duties (aka tariffs) raise prices all around and are bad for the economy in pretty much every way. The reasons for this were discussed in your Economics 101 text, or would have been if you had taken it.
No, they don't even help balance of trade. They protect inefficiencies in production, meaning that your products are too expensive to compete in markets that aren't protected, and putting a tariff on imports will almost always lead to a retaliatory tariff on goods that you export (a "tariff war"), reducing your exports, wiping out any balance of payments gain you had from raising prices on imports, and making your economy worse because the companies that are now subject to the counter-tariff have lost their markets abroad.
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It's funny, I remember when what you are saying dominated conservative political thought on the subject. Trump really just upends everything.
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As with all things Trump, it's not clear what he will actually do until he does it, and then it's not always clear what he did.
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It is! Except it's economics 101 from pre-1776. That's when Adam Smith explained how nations actually get rich, they started reversing mercantilist policies and, well, actually got rich.
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> I have hard time believing that even he could be that stupid
Yeah, you can watch the JD Vance interview on Joe Rogan if you want details.
TL;DR: minimum on stuff that can't be made here (tropical foods like coffee) to maximum on finished goods that compete directly with US goods that are tariffed.
e.g. US charges no tariff on a Swedish car but Sweden charges 100% tariff on American cars.
Trump will match those, creating incentives for both will come far down from 100% (e.g. 15%)
Pharmaceuticals and other cr
Commodities are only going one way (Score:4, Interesting)
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We're going to have to assume that crop failure is going to be a more regular occurrence. My coffee addiction won't let me give up but I balk at paying £4 for a black coffee, which is where prices are going
Caffeine works a million times better when it's not consumed habitually and most of the "I need coffee to wake up" feeling comes from the need to feed the habbit and wouldn't be there without it as long as you were getting enough sleep. Even as a sleep replacement you quickly run into very strong diminishing returns if you reach habbit level. Just something to consider.
good (Score:5, Insightful)
Coffee has, for a very long time now, been priced too low. Most people have no idea how little money coffee farmers make. In a particularly bad year, they can starve to death.
Yet the coffee you're sold is 100x higher in price. Most of the profit is going to middle-men and corporations. Ironically, the coffee you actually receive is often poor quality, because it's designed to be mass produced and quality isn't a concern.
We should all be paying more for coffee, so that the farmers can make a sustainable living, and increase the quality of the coffee. We should be paying more for NGOs to ensure forests aren't cleared just to grow more coffee, and to prevent farmers from having to grow opium to make a profit. We should be paying the middle men less, and we should have better roasts that are more specific to improve flavor and choice.
If you have a say in the coffee you buy, buy from local roasters, who buy from small farms, ensure sustainable agriculture practices, and living wages. You will spend a very small amount more money and the result will be better for everyone involved.
I'm sure droughts & tariffs (Score:5, Insightful)
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Coffee has, for a very long time now, been priced too low. Most people have no idea how little money coffee farmers make. In a particularly bad year, they can starve to death.
Be that as it may this price increase has precisely zero to do with this and those farmers aren't getting a single extra cent for their livelihoods.
My trip to a coffee plantation (Score:4, Informative)
Most people have no idea how little money coffee farmers make. In a particularly bad year, they can starve to death.
One of the most memorable moments of my life was when I visited a coffee plantation in the Philippines. He had a sack of 15 kilos of cherries in his work shed that he had picked that day. I asked him how much he was paid per kilo at the market. It was about $1.00 / kilo, and that whole day's worth of labor was going to nab him only $16. I offered him $40 on the spot, and he was as happy as a lark.
But I also got to see what this kind of operation looks like. A lot of people don't understand that commodity coffee is ridiculously poor quality. Coffee cherries don't all mature at the same time on a tree, and it takes way too much time to go from tree-to-tree every day to only pike the ripe ones. Time was money, so he'd just go to a tree when all the cherries were large enough berries and strip it bare. About 3/4ths of them were green, but the customers don't know and don't care. Commodity markets roast the beans very dark to hide the imperfections, not to mention the occasional twig, beetle, & scat that finds its way into the bag. The markets available to him just pay him a flat rate per kilo, and there's no markets available to him that care about the quality.
And then I found out how ridiculously time consuming it was to extract the beans from the cherries. Spoiler-alert: unless you have some modern machinery at your disposal, it's way more effort than anyone could imagine it to be. (And for that farmer in the Philippines that earns $10 - $20 / day, do you think he owns any modern machinery? And no, there aren't banks available to them to help them mechanize their harvest & production.)
And this guy actually owned the land, which was passed down to him. There were plenty of laborers earning about $5-7 / day working plantations that they didn't own. But he was struggling to get by, and he was seriously considering selling his land just so that he could keep on living.
Long-story-short, coffee drinkers are spoiled rotten, because they're exploiting cheap labor shielded from view by large corporations just to pay 50% of what they should be paying for their beverage of choice. And what they should be paying should be going to the farmer, not to the corporate overlords that exploit them.
(If you want to really taste the full flavor of coffee, and pay someone a sustainable wage of $5 to pick it and roast it for you, you'd be paying at least $30 / pound of beans.)
Re: good (Score:2)
US farmers solved this issue with growner-owned co-ops.
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They can drink all the coffee they want, which is very expensive.
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If the quality is as bad as you describe it, the farmers don't deserve to be well paid. If they are unhappy with their revenue they are free to find something else to work with.
And why is opium bad? America wouldn't have a fentanyl crisis if there was a good supply of opium available. Duh!
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Look for Fair Trade and Organic markings on coffee.
Also "shade grown".
This gets you what you want.
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This proposal is more like "trickle-up", which actually will work if the companies that we patronize are committed to fair trade and paying a sustainable price (in the sense that the farmers can sustain themselves) for the product. The customers end up paying what it actually takes to sustain production.
Re: good (Score:2)
Not really trickle down. More like shortening the supply chain. I buy relatively expensive imported coffee that is locally roasted, then I brew my own. Most of the cost of a cup of coffee for me is the milk.
Tea (Score:2, Insightful)
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Good thing I switched to Tea this year.
Which, depending on type, also comes from Asia or South America. China and India are the worlds top two producers.
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Re:Tea (Score:4, Informative)
Good thing I switched to tea this year.
Generic coffee costs about $8 per pound, which makes about 25 cups, so 30 cents per cup.
Generic black tea costs $2 for 100 bags, so 2 cents per cup.
My morning drink is green tea, which is 5 cents per bag.
With or without tariffs, tea is a cheaper habit than coffee.
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And water is cheaper than tea. If you only consume purely for cost, then I recommend that. Actually don't drink anything at all. The amount of money you'd save when you die would be amazing, and is a one true way to beat the cost of living.
Tea drinkers aren't just poor coffee drinkers who can't afford the habit.
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Good thing I switched to Tea this year.
Good thing picking tea leaves isn't super labor intensive and much of it comes from Asia and South America. :-)
Cuppa Josephus (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Cuppa Josephus (Score:5, Interesting)
The highest price ever, or the highest price ever adjusted for inflation?
In America, the highest price ever, when adjusted for inflation, was in the Confederacy during the Civil War.
Sometimes, when the pickets were within shouting distance, the soldiers would swap Union coffee for Confederate tobacco.
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In America, the highest price ever, when adjusted for inflation, was in the Confederacy during the Civil War.
If you're going to mention coffee and wars, seems like it's worth adding that during World War II, some people drank a coffee substitute [wikipedia.org] because they couldn't get the real thing. Of course, these days it doesn't seem like Postum is particularly cheap either.
Now there is a _real_ crisis! (Score:5, Funny)
Now take into account that with climate change, coffee will possibly vanish completely, and you begin to understand the scale of _that_ problem.
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The submitted article seems to be taking climate change into account already.
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coffee will possibly vanish completely
Unlikely. Coffee grows best in tropical montane climates.
As the global climate warms, coffee will be grown further from the equator and further up the slopes.
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Not with the soil that is still there. Now, if this was a proper, natural climate change over 10'000 years or more, sure.
Re: Now there is a _real_ crisis! (Score:2)
When this happens, my productivity will drop drastically. It's time for me to retire, I guess.
Fuck. I love coffee. (Score:3)
I have looked at the concerns around coffee. I understand the ecological, environmental, and exploitation issues with the industry. And on this topic I choose to look the other way. I love coffee. I cannot possibly pay attention to every single cause or concern. I donate time, money, and blood, to a variety of causes. But I'll keep drinking coffee as long as it is available. Sucks that the price is rising.
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Dammit (Score:2)
This is awful! it is not going to keep me awake at night!!!
All of the sudden (Score:2, Interesting)
Suddenly high prices for stuff make headlines.
Weird.
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Weird? Due to the run of global inflation we had we just came off a long run of hearing about high prices non stop.
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As if I'm not an American and the "4 years of denial" claim was that our inflation wasn't as bad as quite a few other countries and that is well supported by data. The Biden administration never denied inflation was happening and hurting Americans.
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All of the sudden
At least for all intensive purposes.
Re:Tariffs (Score:4, Interesting)
You plan on paying white people prices to harvest that coffee?
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Sure, why not? Someone will just make coffee picker robots and all will be well. Besides, nobody ever wants to discuss where labor factors into the total cost of production for agricultural goods.
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Sure, why not?
Because Americans don't apply for the jobs. [youtube.com] Amazingly, that's not some armchair podcaster or left-wing loon, it's a news report from Florida about farm owners explaining that part of the process to hire migrant workers requires that the jobs be posted for Americans to apply to. Rather unsurprisingly, Americans don't want to work those sorts of jobs.
This all happened a few years ago because our idiot governor was raising a stink about migrant workers coming here, so the farm owners spoke up and said "They'
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Right, because nobody ever posts jobs that are already filled.
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Sure, why not?
Because Americans don't apply for the jobs. [youtube.com] Amazingly, that's not some armchair podcaster or left-wing loon, it's a news report from Florida about farm owners explaining that part of the process to hire migrant workers requires that the jobs be posted for Americans to apply to. Rather unsurprisingly, Americans don't want to work those sorts of jobs.
This all happened a few years ago because our idiot governor was raising a stink about migrant workers coming here, so the farm owners spoke up and said "They're not taking your jobs, they're doing work that still needs to be done because Americans don't want to do it."
Is there a "looking for work and having to accept if offered" requirement in order to collect unemployment benefits, like in many states? 'Cause then this sounds like a good way to force people into taking those jobs instead of paying out benefits.
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Yup, but the problem is Florida's unemployment benefits are so stingy to begin with, there's not many people who are able to mooch off the system for very long in the first place.
The main reason people don't take these agricultural jobs in Florida is because the tourism and hospitality industries pay better, and the work is far more pleasant.
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So what we are really saying is there is a labor shortage for farm work at x wage. Maybe the farmer needs to pay at least Y-retail wage to compete.
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So what we are really saying is there is a labor shortage for farm work at x wage. Maybe the farmer needs to pay at least Y-retail wage to compete.
To pay better wages than what the tourism and hospitality industries pay, the farms would have to operate at a profit margin higher than the tourism and hospitality industries. Funny thing about business is, a savvy business owner doesn't leave potential profit on the table - if they could raise prices, they already would've. The more likely outcome is that a farm which sees its labor costs suddenly skyrocket would simply go out of business.
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So what we are really saying is there is a labor shortage for farm work at x wage. Maybe the farmer needs to pay at least Y-retail wage to compete.
Consumers won't like paying the corresponding increase for their food (or housing, in the case of construction). Just sayin' that won't bode well for the administration. For some reason, people, mostly Trump's supporters, are enraged that "illegals" are taking jobs that locals don't even want to do, and happy that Trump is going to deport them, but it seems like they're all shooting themselves in the foot here.
The same things could be said about "drill, baby, drill". The U.S. is already the largest pr
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Do your research:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=... [youtube.com]
Shouldn't take much imagination to see where things are going.
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It will be great. We pay them 10% of what they used to earn. Housing prices will drop as few people can pay the full price anymore. They won't miss the 90%. It will be a bit rough in the beginning, but it will get magnificent after th
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You think they are building this internment camp for shits and giggles? https://www.dallasnews.com/new... [dallasnews.com]
Re:Tariffs (Score:5, Insightful)
Not sure why it would need to be a "snappy gotcha" in any case, it's a reasonable point.
The minimum wage in Florida is, as far as I can tell, currently $13.00 USD an hour. *40 a week * 4 weeks is $2080 USD a month.
The minimum wage in Brazil is, as far as I can tell, the equivalent of $265 USD a month.
These are obviously nothing more than some notepad numbers, but even if I'm 25% off it should be pretty clear that the difference in labour costs aren't negligible, and are going to be passed on to the consumers.
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The minimum wage in Florida is, as far as I can tell, currently $13.00 USD an hour. *40 a week * 4 weeks is $2080 USD a month.
The minimum wage in Brazil is, as far as I can tell, the equivalent of $265 USD a month.
These are obviously nothing more than some notepad numbers, but even if I'm 25% off it should be pretty clear that the difference in labour costs aren't negligible, and are going to be passed on to the consumers.
Noting that comparing wages in different countries w/o also comparing their costs of living is almost meaningless.
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The minimum wage in Florida is, as far as I can tell, currently $13.00 USD an hour. *40 a week * 4 weeks is $2080 USD a month.
The minimum wage in Brazil is, as far as I can tell, the equivalent of $265 USD a month.
These are obviously nothing more than some notepad numbers, but even if I'm 25% off it should be pretty clear that the difference in labour costs aren't negligible, and are going to be passed on to the consumers.
Noting that comparing wages in different countries w/o also comparing their costs of living is almost meaningless.
??? I'm not making some moral argument here. I'm saying if you bring the production of coffee from (for example) Brazil to Florida you are increasing the cost of production and therefore going to see an increase in the cost to consume. Can you explain why you think the cost of living would somehow be a factor in this?
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Noting that comparing wages in different countries w/o also comparing their costs of living is almost meaningless.
??? I'm not making some moral argument here. I'm saying if you bring the production of coffee from (for example) Brazil to Florida you are increasing the cost of production and therefore going to see an increase in the cost to consume. Can you explain why you think the cost of living would somehow be a factor in this?
I wasn't making a moral argument, or implying you were/n't. I get that any change in labor/production costs usually changes product costs, and are usually passed on to consumers, but you listed specific/hypothetical wage numbers (for Florida and Brazil) and those are only relevant in context with corresponding cost of living numbers. In addition, an n% change in wages may not have the same effect in different conditions/countries, or even that the same percentage change would be required to achieve the s
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I'm saying if you bring the production of coffee from (for example) Brazil to Florida you are increasing the cost of production and therefore going to see an increase in the cost to consume.
But only in America. Nobody else will buy the American coffee because it is not competitive. Indeed coffee may get cheaper everywhere else as the US market goes away and Brazil's crop gets redistributed globally.
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Noting that comparing wages in different countries w/o also comparing their costs of living is almost meaningless.
Are you Brazilian? Is that why you can't understand that we are talking about Americans buying products and as such no one really gives a flying fuck what the cost of living is for some farmer when we are discussing the sticker price on a food on the shelf?
Honestly we could be comparing the royal family to a literal homeless guy, it makes no difference. Did you even look at what conversation you joined before saying something so horrifically off topic that it makes us question whether or not you just had a
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Well that doesn't really say much it depend what portion of the cost is labor, if its 1% then a 30 times increase gives a 30% rise, if its 50% then it give about 1400% rise. Of course that doesn't factor in efficiency gains that might happen in the US like using machinery and shipping. There maybe other factors as well I know next to nothing about coffee production costs.
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Why aren't Starbucks growing coffee in Florida?
Because if it's anything like the cheese we produce in America, it will probably be mediocre at best, to cup of Satan's taint sweat at worst. Regional differences absolutely do make a difference in the quality of the resulting coffee cherries.
Could you grow coffee in Florida? Absolutely. Should you? No.
Re: Tariffs (Score:3)
Yes and no. Florida's climate would likely produce fine coffee if they took advantage of greenhouses. But that raises the price. So the real reason isn't quality, it's cost.
Re:Tariffs (Score:5, Interesting)
Why aren't Starbucks growing coffee in Florida?
Growing and harvesting coffee is labor intensive.
America is a developed country with an expensive, educated, highly skilled, and productive workforce.
Americans are six times as productive as Chinese per hour worked.
It makes zero sense for Americans to pick coffee beans and sew T-shirts instead of designing tensor processors and making movies.
This fundamental principle of Comparative advantage [wikipedia.org] is why tariffs are so stupid.
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America is a developed country with an expensive, educated, highly skilled, and productive workforce.
The highly educated don't pick coffee cherries even in the countries where it is presently grown. The thing with America is that we've a multitude of jobs for the lower educated folks which pay better and are less miserable than harvesting crops in the blazing hot sun.
As someone already said earlier in the thread, Florida's minimum wage is presently $13 per hour. Why work in a field when you could earn better money at one of the various theme parks and resorts?
Re: Tariffs (Score:2)
"Why work in a field when you could earn better money at one of the various theme parks and resorts?"
Real answer? Because your cost of living is going to be way lower living in a agricultural community rather than a tourist trap.
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In Florida at least, the cost of living isn't hugely different between the suburban and rural areas. If you really want a cheaper cost of living you've gotta leave the state.
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I'd much rather pick grapes all day then work at Disneyland. That literally sounds like a living hell to me. I've done grape picking for fun. Work would be work but much better then Disneyland. Shudders.
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I'd much rather pick grapes all day then work at Disneyland.
Unfortunately, grapes make terrible coffee.
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Good points, but wouldn't those in charge also have to be in favor of global free(er) trade to make all that work well. My understanding is that many Republican politicians aren't. Perhaps Democrat ones too, but this incoming administration will be (R) heavy ... and run by someone one of his former Wharton professors (apparently) said was, "the dumbest goddamn student I ever had." (Google: wharton professor trump dumb [google.com])
Re:Tariffs (Score:4)
Florida is flat. Coffee likes to grow at high altitudes, like on mountains. Sure it can be made to grow in lowlands, but it will make poor beans.
So, until someone figures out how to grow coffee in the Florida mountains...
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Hawaii island grows Kona coffee, which can be excellent, but is most often dishonestly marketed at maybe 10% blend. Maui grows a small amount of decent coffee. Kaua'i was beginning to grow coffee, but it was at low altitude. What I had there some years back, was from newer plantings, and was insipid.
For top quality deadly conflict coffee, there's Yemen. It can be some of the best coffee in the world, in between insurgencies and hostage taking. If you get any, you must pick through it carefully, because
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Re: Tariffs (Score:2)
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In New Jersey we got brown water right out of the tap.
If it's brown, drink it down. If it's black, send it back.