China is Losing Interest in English 159
An anonymous reader shares a report: In preparation for the summer Olympics in 2008, the authorities in Beijing, the host city and China's capital, launched a campaign to teach English to residents likely to come in contact with foreign visitors. Police, transit workers and hotel staff were among those targeted. One aim was to have 80% of taxi drivers achieve a basic level of competency. Today, though, any foreigner visiting Beijing will notice that rather few people are able to speak English well.
The 80% target proved a fantasy: most drivers still speak nothing but Chinese. Even the public-facing staff at the city's main international airport struggle to communicate with foreigners. Immigration officers often resort to computer-translation systems. For much of the 40 years since China began opening up to the world, "English fever" was a common catchphrase. People were eager to learn foreign languages, English most of all. Many hoped the skill would lead to jobs with international firms. Others wanted to do business with foreign companies. Some dreamed of moving abroad. But enthusiasm for learning English has waned in recent years. According to one ranking, by EF Education First, an international language-training firm, China ranks 91st among 116 countries and regions in terms of English proficiency. Just four years ago it ranked 38th out of 100.
The 80% target proved a fantasy: most drivers still speak nothing but Chinese. Even the public-facing staff at the city's main international airport struggle to communicate with foreigners. Immigration officers often resort to computer-translation systems. For much of the 40 years since China began opening up to the world, "English fever" was a common catchphrase. People were eager to learn foreign languages, English most of all. Many hoped the skill would lead to jobs with international firms. Others wanted to do business with foreign companies. Some dreamed of moving abroad. But enthusiasm for learning English has waned in recent years. According to one ranking, by EF Education First, an international language-training firm, China ranks 91st among 116 countries and regions in terms of English proficiency. Just four years ago it ranked 38th out of 100.
Of course (Score:3)
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Re: Of course (Score:2)
Re: Of course (Score:5, Funny)
Across China, educators are lamenting the kids innability to grasp simple english grammar concepts such as curly braces and array comprehensions, whilst lamenting poor test scores on basic english exam questions like "Use the word 'std::nullptr_t' in a reply to 'How do I find my way to the hotel'" or "What is the plural of 'std::endl'"
Re: Of course (Score:2)
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> Have you ever seen C++ or Rust, or Python, or Assembly written in Chinese? Yeah no...because they didn't invent anything of their own.
Actually they make our crap, and sell it to us as crap. Then they make their own CPUs and microcontrollers, and program those in their own languages.
Every time you see a device call an SD card a TF card, well there you go.
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Every time you see a device call an SD card a TF card, well there you go.
Every time you see someone measure weight in ounces and pounds, then... (choose something).
TF is the same thing as Micro SD. What is your point?
Re: Of course (Score:2)
"Then they make their own CPUs and microcontrollers"
With inferior performance. Their faster processors use our older designs, licensed. They are still making Zen 1-based processors, which are faster than Loongson...
They stopped allowing online English tutoring... (Score:5, Informative)
About 3 years ago, they imposed a rule that would forbid English tutoring by foreign teachers online. They said that the expectations for kids getting into better schools were getting so difficult that it was causing families to not be able to afford having multiple kids. So, the government just made the blanket statement that forbid that tutoring, so they could say, "There! Now, education is cheaper! We fixed the problem!"
Re: They stopped allowing online English tutoring. (Score:2)
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Re: They stopped allowing online English tutoring (Score:2)
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Why should they learn English when the rest of the world can learn Mandarin?
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The no tutoring rule was to prevent a repeat of what happened in South Korea and to a lesser extent Japan.
Some European countries ban some forms of private education as well.
Re: They stopped allowing online English tutoring. (Score:2)
do they?
private tutoring i believe is legal in all Europe I believe. (And most of the world.)
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In Finland private schools are illegal.
Re: They stopped allowing online English tutoring (Score:2)
This appears to not be true:
https://www.aacrao.org/edge/em... [aacrao.org]
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Batka Lukashenka would want to have a word with you.
Re: They stopped allowing online English tutoring (Score:2)
The president of Belarus? (or are you refering to someone else)
Do we count Belarus in Europe? I guess it can be on the european continent; but then so is Turkiye.
Clearly not part of Europe politically (either european union, shengen space, or eurozone.)
Re: They stopped allowing online English tutoring. (Score:5, Informative)
Lots of exceptions for ethnic minorities, political favorites, or people that were simply able to pay the fine directly contradict the blanket statement that "It was illegal to have more than one kid in China," and thus "No, it wasn't. Don't let facts get in the way" is a perfectly valid retort, and not, in fact, an indication that "[He's] a goddamn liar."
My one-child-era Han spouse is one of four total siblings, for example, and is documented, has a hokou, and isn't an illegal child, for example.
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Illegal things don't stop being illegal when you pay the fine for being caught. The presence of exceptions doesn't make a law invalid either. You acknowledge there was a fining process, therefore you acknowledge that it was illegal. While several people in this thread are being highly toxic arsehats with their responses, your well written post is none the less quite the leap of logic.
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The point is it was never a blanket law that couples were only allowed one child. There were always numerous exceptions to it.
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> 2015 was a decade ago not a few years
Aww cute seeing a youngster who still thinks a decade is a loing time.
You wait till youre 44, when you get there you'll see. And you'll know its going to get worse as you reach 80. Enjoy the rollercoaster as you find 10 years flies by as if its nothing.
Re: They stopped allowing online English tutoring (Score:2)
In no situation is ten "a few".
A decade is not a long time when compared to the age of a nation, even a young one like America. But it's still a significant period.
America (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re: America (Score:2)
200 pounds of fecal matter? Next time try pinching off that loaf instead of pulling it out of your ass by hand and placing it in the bin.
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Americans have lost interest in anything not directly related to survival. Grunts and finger pointing work fine for survival.
Keep devaluing the currency and diluting education and the results will be spectacular. Definitely a spectacle to behold.
Conversely... (Score:5, Interesting)
How many citizens of the United States or of Great Britain are proficient in Mandarin? How interested are they usually in learning the languages of other cultures?
Chinese and English are very far away in too many aspects, so it's a big effort for both groups to learn the other's language. Both cultures are mostly self-oriented, so the motivation is little anyway...
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"How many citizens of the United States or of Great Britain are proficient in Mandarin?"
I don't have any interest in Mandarin, but Clementine is an excellent music player.
Re: Conversely... (Score:2)
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"Looks like Clementine is no longer being maintained."
The latest version I have is:
Version 1.4.1-17-g4ea9d473a
Which I dl'd on 2 Dec 2024
So it does seem to be still supported..
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When has China had an international empire where it was said that, "The sun never sets on the Chinese Empire"?.
Nonsense. China has always been the "Middle Empire", the central Empire of the world. Everyone else is Southern, Northern, Western or Eastern barbarians. The Son of Heaven doesn't need to travel to barbarian lands, it's the barbarians that need to travel to the Middle Empire to pay their tribute and be gifted some civilization by the benevolent Huaxia..
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Re: Conversely... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Not to mention the single country with the most English speakers in the world, India, is a lot closer to China than either the US or GB.
I think this also highlights the reason that English remains the international language (of business, diplomacy, bad internet trolls, pretty much everything except Oppression (German) and Love (French)) To speak English you only need to grasp the basics, to speak Mandarin or Cantonese, you need to speak it well. English is fault tolerant and malleable, you can completely mangle the grammar, pronunciation and sentence structure and a competent English speaker will still understand you. So much so that other
Re:Conversely... (Score:5, Insightful)
>"How many citizens of the United States or of Great Britain are proficient in Mandarin?"
Probably not many
>"How interested are they usually in learning the languages of other cultures?"
Very, apparently. In the US, it has been a requirement to take courses in foreign languages for ages. I am not sure the CURRENT status, but when I went through school, you had to take 3 years of one language or 2 years of two different languages if you planned on getting a degree. And the advanced diploma in high school required this (and if you didn't, then you would have to take those in college).
Now, the languages offered in HS did NOT include Asian languages, mostly because the interest is low and they are very, VERY different from Western languages (and, thus, far more complex and difficult). So you pretty much had to pick from Spanish, French, Italian, German, and Latin. Sometimes others. Far more choices if delayed until university.
Was this a good requirement? Maybe. I still remember quite a bit of my 3 years of Spanish, and sometimes it comes in handy. And the teaching of the language did, indeed, include teaching about the cultures along with it, which was at least as interesting. But I think the time would be better spent teaching kids things like logic, reason, critical thinking, debate, personal finance, etc. There are only so many hours/courses, we need to pick the required ones wisely.
I do detest having mandatory multi-lingual prompts on phone systems and ATMs, and signs in non-tourist/travel places (looking at you, Home Depot, as an example), and getting DOUBLE the number of pages from my monthly insurance EOB because they want to print it in several languages every single time.
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The only people that would have any interest in learning another language are those that bother to travel, or like travelling.
I myself in the UK might take up Welsh, as that is a British language next door to my country. But I have little need of French, I went to France once and I wont be going again.
Re: Conversely... (Score:2)
Re: Conversely... (Score:2)
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why would they (Score:2, Insightful)
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Because as horrible a language English is to learn, it is a hell of a lot better as a lingua franca than most alternatives.
Re:why would they (Score:5, Interesting)
re:China & Euro demographic collapse (Score:2)
Ironic if Joe's lax borders are saving us from a demographic collapse.
Prez #45 and #46 are both broken clocks that are right twice a day.
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The world is looking down the barrel of a Trump presidency. The US can only hope to have it so good as a demographic collapse.
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Re:why would they (Score:5, Informative)
No, China's economy has been mostly stalled since the pandemic. This language hiccup is likely about Cold War II tensions rather than economic might. English is still the de-facto business language of the world, for good or bad. If you want to do world biz, then you still need to learn English.
Xi also started regulating China's rich heavier after a couple of plutocrats got too comfortable and dabbled in China's politics. The crackdown is driving out investors.
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No, China's economy has been mostly stalled since the pandemic. This language hiccup is likely about Cold War II tensions rather than economic might. English is still the de-facto business language of the world, for good or bad. If you want to do world biz, then you still need to learn English.
Xi also started regulating China's rich heavier after a couple of plutocrats got too comfortable and dabbled in China's politics. The crackdown is driving out investors.
The language thing has more to do with the fact China has no interest in, nor any requirement to become a service economy (read: outsourcing target) to western nations. Same with Japan and Korea.
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No stars are rising. This is the end of the current socio-political systems we have implemented. All of them brought down by the human desire for control over other people and self interested greed. This is a very dark time to live in when combined with nuclear bombs and biological agents of devastating efficacy.
Power/money/whatever must NEVER accumulate ANYWHERE, least of all in government.
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"Them" and "us" are not going to be recognizable in 100 years. There is going to be a radical and rapid collapse of the current political power structures as they have ALL hollowed themselves out with their greed and corruption. Some of the Nordic countries might survive, but being so close to various corrupted EU countries and Russia (don't even have to mention corruption there) means their socio-political structures will likely collapse too.
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Unemployment is way up, especially among the young people. In fact it is so bad the CCP stopped keeping stats on that demographic. Plus there's the collapse of the real estate market with half-finished vacant apartment blocks (contractors not getting paid), and whole ghost cities. There's still an awful lot of action going on in China. It's a huge country with a population size that we can hardly comprehend here in the west. Things there could turn worse in a real hurry. I think Xi's tenuous hold over th
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Re: why would they (Score:2)
Idunno. They're in the middle of a bursting real estate bubble and population crash right now. China will endure, but it's no sure bet it will outshine anyone.
What I saw (Score:3)
I found most drivers couldn't read Pinyin, the computer-version of Chinese, that had been an official language for over 40 years, at the time. At the internet cafes, I saw teenagers using Pinyin on QQ.
Chinese think most visitors are American. Although in the middle they thought I was French-Canadian, and going north, I was Russian, and going south, I was English-speaking.
While English-speaking countries happily adopted Americanisms, (and in 2005, several Americanisms were forced onto other countries), Asian countries spend a lot of time blocking such cultural imperialism. Same with France although Germany is less successful.
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And you know what they call a Quarter Pounder with Cheese in Paris?
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Newspaper, magazine and book publishers around the world decided to ban words such as "biscuit" and "mum". Weeks later, I saw a not-US reality Tv. show where the weekly evicted contestant used the word "cookie" twice in every sentence for 5 sentences. The word "cookie" has been on US Tv. for 50 years, yet some US-ians also say "biscuit".
In one country, a chain bakery decided to use brand-name recipes and call it a "cookie" because brand-names were all trade-marked as biscuits. The government objected t
English just isn't that important. (Score:4, Interesting)
There's truth to this, but it's a reflection of several things, that boil down to English just not being that important any more - in China that is.
It's perfectly possible to exist with minimal Chinese in China (I'm sure it varies).
I've lived in China for most of the past 21 years and still have what must amount to negligible Chinese (though I don't recommend it).
I moved to China from California to work at a school that was teaching English to people working to organise the Olympics...learning English was all the rage back then. These days, not so much. A lot of things have changed, including a lot of improvements in living standards, but also the USA (et al) has become much more aggressive against China, so there's not much point in learning English.
Also, what's the problem? You go to a foreign country...you should expect to speak need to speak their language that's what phrase books are for...I guess apps do that now, but still.
Re:English just isn't that important. (Score:4, Informative)
It used to be the case that e.g. engineers needed English. A lot of information was only available in English, or the translations were unsatisfactory.
Now China has its own ecosystems and it is English speakers who are translating Chinese documentation. There are a lot of interesting microcontrollers and sensors, for example, in industries that western companies have divided to avoid competing.
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You know that Woden/Odin is present in all Germanic languages and cultures, don't you?
No Problem (Score:2)
If they don't want to learn English it will have no effect on me. I once dreamed of visiting China but no more.
Not surprised (Score:2)
If you travel in China you just get a translation app, most folks use one. The low number of English speakers, outside of Hong Kong, makes it a low value skill outside of international business. Our dev team in Beijing however definitely benefits from being fluent.
Universal language (Score:2)
The planet needs a universal language. Keep the native languages as a backup if you want, but they are ultimately not important, or even culturally relevant, anymore. English is the closest we have to a universal language right now. Not saying it should continue to be that way or anything. But we do need to simplify to one main language planet-wide, eventually.
Re: Universal language (Score:2)
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I am starting to think that the American oligarchs all actually work for Putler
Not quite. They don't work for, they either work with (i.e. Phillip Morris, PepsiCo, Mars, P&G, and many more) or they indirectly follow along (i.e. Apple, probably more but that is one that I know).
Putler, the richest person in the history of the world
He definitely is not.
Re: Universal language (Score:2)
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But they aren't perfect. There are weird nuances to many languages that don't translate well into others. They're generally good enough to get the point across, or as a stepping stone to the correct thing, but still not as good as a universal language. It'll be more important in the future if we ever become a true spacefaring species to have either perfect universal translators, or a universal language. Universal language is just the better option. But that won't happen until the planet unifies and realizes
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Not really. Not in actual practice.
The Chinese Internet (Score:2)
Not surprised (Score:2)
... enthusiasm for learning English has waned in recent years. According to one ranking, by EF Education First, an international language-training firm, China ranks 91st among 116 countries and regions in terms of English proficiency. Just four years ago it ranked 38th out of 100
I would think that it would mostly be younger people - ones looking forward to demanding careers, possibly abroad - who would be most interested in learning a foreign language. Especially an alphabet-based one. But demographic collapse probably means a shrinking economy, fewer career options, and more time spent caring for one's own elders because the infrastructure and services to take care of them at a societal and institutional level are shrinking.
If demographic collapse isn't yet a contributing factor
OMG you dont say (Score:2)
OMG! SO a country that doesnt speak English will end up not learning English?
Who would have thunk that? Yes, I meant to write that.
So this means that English speakers will need to; oh my its so terrible to contemplate; will need to learn another language? In fact a language that is way bigger than theirs and way older (English as we know it is only 600 years old).
My god! It may even suggest to some English speaking persons who think the world ends at New York that there are other countries way more popul
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So this means that English speakers will need to; oh my its so terrible to contemplate; will need to learn another language?
Lots of English speakers have learned another language. Personally, I've learned five. But I have forgotten most of all five of them because they're not generally useful. There are specific circumstances where each of them is useful individually, but no circumstance where all of them are useful simultaneously and many circumstances when none of them are useful. In most countries around the world (including China), English is more useful than any of the six total languages I've learned and that would still b
International Airport???? (Score:2)
I mean, if Thai's, Spaniards, Germans, French, Dutch, Italians, and Indonesians working at their respective international airports speak better English than I, why is it so that Chinese people working in their international airports don't actually speak English?
Richtig so! Hier wird jetzt _Deutsch_ gelernt! (Score:2)
Wie sich das gehoert. Schluss mit Lustig!
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Re: Better AI did this (Score:2)
Hopefully we can avoid learning any language. An AI can translate a series of gesticulations unique to the individual.
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... oh right... promoting xenophobia.
I don't think the apparently increasing supply of Chinese xenophobes who are averse to learning English are reading Slashdot because - get this - it's primarily in English.
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Nothing promotes xenophobia quite like a ShanghaiBill post.
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Well, we did get stuck with Clownus Tintus
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Bad analogy. Centuries after the fall of Rome, intellectuals among the conquering Arabs were studying both languages with gusto, until the Islamic Golden Age ended. And even centuries after that, every learned person in Europe could use at least one of these.
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I've seen Fortran and PL/I in Russian.
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Nope, there aren't that many places in the reeducation camps.