Is America Closer to Ending Daylight Saving Time? (msn.com) 117
U.S. president Donald Trump called Daylight Saving Time "very costly to our nation" and "inconvenient" in December. Today the Washington Post remembers he'd vowed his Republican party would use their "best efforts" to eliminate it.
But it's still proving to be politically difficult... Polls have shown that most Americans oppose the time shifts but disagree on what should replace them... [U.S. political leaders] also say they are grappling with whether the nation should permanently move the clocks forward one hour, an idea championed by lawmakers on the coasts who say it would allow for more sunshine during the winter, or remain on year-round standard time, which is favored by neurologists who say it aligns with our circadian rhythms. That decision would rest with Congress, not the president. The split often reflects regional, not political, differences, based on where time zones fall; a year-round "spring forward" would mean winter sunrises that could creep past 9 a.m. in cities such as Indianapolis and Detroit, prompting many local lawmakers to oppose the idea...
[A 2022 Senate vote to make Daylight Saving Time permanent] awoke a new lobbying effort from advocates such as the American Academy of Sleep Medicine, which warned that year-round daylight saving time would be unhealthy, citing risks such as higher rates of obesity or metabolic dysfunction. Some researchers warned of a condition dubbed "social jetlag," saying that internal body clocks and rhythms would be persistently misaligned if human clocks were permanently set forward an hour. The concerted resistance from the health groups — which some congressional aides jokingly referred to as "Big Sleep" — helped kill the measure in the House and has contributed to a stalemate over how to proceed...
Today, roughly two-thirds of Americans want to end the clock changes, polls show. But even those Americans don't agree on what should come next. An October 2023 YouGov poll found that 33 percent of respondents wanted year-round daylight saving time, 23 percent wanted permanent standard time, and 9 percent had no preference. The remainder weren't sure or preferred to remain on the current system... The political fight is far from over, with Trump allies such as Sen. Tommy Tuberville (R-Alabama) pledging to keep pushing for year-round daylight saving time. Some congressional Republicans also have privately called for a hearing in front of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, with hopes of advancing the Sunshine Protection Act.
But it's still proving to be politically difficult... Polls have shown that most Americans oppose the time shifts but disagree on what should replace them... [U.S. political leaders] also say they are grappling with whether the nation should permanently move the clocks forward one hour, an idea championed by lawmakers on the coasts who say it would allow for more sunshine during the winter, or remain on year-round standard time, which is favored by neurologists who say it aligns with our circadian rhythms. That decision would rest with Congress, not the president. The split often reflects regional, not political, differences, based on where time zones fall; a year-round "spring forward" would mean winter sunrises that could creep past 9 a.m. in cities such as Indianapolis and Detroit, prompting many local lawmakers to oppose the idea...
[A 2022 Senate vote to make Daylight Saving Time permanent] awoke a new lobbying effort from advocates such as the American Academy of Sleep Medicine, which warned that year-round daylight saving time would be unhealthy, citing risks such as higher rates of obesity or metabolic dysfunction. Some researchers warned of a condition dubbed "social jetlag," saying that internal body clocks and rhythms would be persistently misaligned if human clocks were permanently set forward an hour. The concerted resistance from the health groups — which some congressional aides jokingly referred to as "Big Sleep" — helped kill the measure in the House and has contributed to a stalemate over how to proceed...
Today, roughly two-thirds of Americans want to end the clock changes, polls show. But even those Americans don't agree on what should come next. An October 2023 YouGov poll found that 33 percent of respondents wanted year-round daylight saving time, 23 percent wanted permanent standard time, and 9 percent had no preference. The remainder weren't sure or preferred to remain on the current system... The political fight is far from over, with Trump allies such as Sen. Tommy Tuberville (R-Alabama) pledging to keep pushing for year-round daylight saving time. Some congressional Republicans also have privately called for a hearing in front of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, with hopes of advancing the Sunshine Protection Act.
Right after they (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
Especially metric time.
10 days per week.
10 hours per day.
100 minutes per hour.
That's going to sort things!
Re: Right after they (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Metric time is a real thing, it defines the SI second precisely.
You are thinking of decimal time. It's been tried a few times. The French had it for a few years after their revolution, but it didn't catch on. The Chinese had some form of it, but abandoned it. Swatch, the watch company, made "beats" in the 90s as that divided the day into 1000 units, supposedly to help people coordinate meetings across time-zones.
It proved too difficult to get people to change in most cases. Nowadays there are probably other
Re: (Score:2)
The Julian Date and its modified/truncated/reduced/etc variant are in active use in astronomy. Right now Stellarium says JD 2460744.30063 (3 decimal hours, 00 decimal minutes, 63 decimal seconds).
Re: (Score:2)
Of course, you guys might change that in the next 4 years:)
Re: (Score:2)
True for medicine, science and engineering. However, American exceptionalism gets in the way. Most of the American population are to used to their "freedom ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H imperial units" of inches, pounds and ounces, miles, and miles per hour.
If Americans truly wanted to change to a new unit of measurement and still wanted to remain the exception, there are always natural units based on the fundamental constants of the universe (Plank units: time and temperature, the speed of light, and fundamental electric
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Meanwhile, in the UK, outside of the temperature, you're usually using imperial units. Distances are in miles, speeds are in MPH, food is weighed in pounds and ounces, land is measured in acres, gas is sold by the liter but your gas tank is measured in gallons, etc. In other words, the UK fakes being metric.
As far as imperial units go, there are parts of the system where it is better. Fahrenheit offers a larger range between temperatures. Each degree of Celsius represents about 2 degrees in Fahrenheit. Frac
Re: (Score:1)
Embracing is different than converting.
I remember the attempt at metrification in the 1970s. The auto (and other) manufacturers screamed that they could not afford to make the change, and they'd have to shut down. Well, they got their wish, had to convert anyway if they wanted to sell internationally, but some of them stubbornly stick to the Imperial system when everyone agrees that metric is simpler, easier and international. My opinion: we (the US) should go full metric on some date in the very near futu
Re: (Score:2)
Canada went metric back in the mid-70's. It went fairly smoothly, had stickers you could put on your speedometer and lots of advertising on the conversion, 50=30 kind of thing. The automotive industry had it easy as they just had to change the speedometer/odometers and paperwork, instead of the gas tank holding 20 gallons, it held 91 litres. Stores did have to change their scales which was more expensive. They won in court that they could still keep advertising in Imperial with kg in small print.
Today, the
Re: (Score:2)
The USA and Canada need to move their paper size [wikipedia.org] to the A series as used in most of the rest of the world. That standardisation will save money.
Re: Right after they (Score:2, Funny)
We should get rid of all those pesky languages other than, I guess, Chinese or English (there are arguments for both). Standardization would save so much money.
Re: (Score:1)
Little will be lost by standardising paper sizes; much culture, etc, would be lost by having just two languages.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
There are some good reasons to reduce the complexity of time though. Getting rid of leap seconds would be helpful, for example.
If we can agree on leap seconds we can agree to get rid of them too.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Other than printer paper, all the paper I buy is ISO sized. Mostly B54, but some A4. I like it better.
Americans enjoy buying what they think is best. And some seem to enjoy telling others what is best. So long as they don't tell me I have to obey them, fine.
Re: (Score:2)
Oh, and:
"Cut paper sheets commonly used by The United States Government from the 1920s until the 1980s, and still used in the United States for children's writing paper and for loose-leaf notebook filler.
Government Size was instated by Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hover as a cost-saving measure for the US Government and to establish lower paper costs for schools. Its use by the US Government was repealed in the 1980s by Ronald Reagan's administration, at which time the US government adopted the standard US
Re: (Score:1)
Embrace and change to the metric system!
Oh, $DEITY, *please*!
Just finished helping my son do some cabinet building. 64ths, 16ths, 8ths...why can't it just be integers? (well, there's always 10ths of a mm, but I've never seen a ruler graduated that finely). And wrenches? a 7/32 is too small, what's the next one up? (well, all you really need is a 10mm, so buy several)
Back to the topic at hand...I think most of us would agree that the real PITA about Daylight Saving is the resetting of clocks twice a year. That's less of a hassle with intelligent
Re: (Score:2)
I grew up with metric and use metric for most things. But having done woodworking including some cabinetry, house framing, and construction, it becomes pretty clear why imperial fractions have lasted so long. They just work very well when you're hand measuring and building things. Everything's based on dividing by two, which you can do with a piece of string. Fractions are extremely convenient to work in that way. That's why they have been used for thousands of years in construction.
And imperial units re
Re: (Score:2)
Maximise useful sunlight hours (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Maximise useful sunlight hours (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:1)
I'd prefer permanent Daylight Saving Time, but given I'm close to retirement... I don't care that much.
FWIW I have a hard time believing that permanent DST is somehow worse than permanent standard time, regardless of what the American Academy of Sleep Medicine claims. Time zones are broad enough that it's simple to come up with counter-arguments for anything they state. But it's easy to believe that the back-and-forth has a deleterious impact on health (although again - I'm close to retirement, it's not goi
Re: (Score:2)
Why? Because we are close enough to the equator for it to not matter, same as the others I listed.
So honestly, right now... its just a political football that will never have resolution. Even though it is an easy solution with a live example of how it affects people.
Honestly, I laugh every time I see this shit... they do it to get people talking abou
Re: (Score:2)
If people really wanted to change it, change it on state level.
The states have tried. Problem is, they need the Fed's permission to do what they (the states) have decided.
Re: (Score:2)
Currently, most of the area of standard time zones is skewed towards 12 noon coming well before solar noon anyway. e.g. Solar Noon today in Chicago (eastern side of Central Daylight saving Time) is 1:00 pm (12:00 CST) while Solar Noon today in Indianapolis (
Re: (Score:3)
Congress should just give each state permission to choose whichever time zone they want (and allow states with two time zones to keep two time zones if they want).
This is the answer. In contrast to China and India, the US already has multiple time zones. That means states already have different time zones, so there is no benefit to forcing uniformity on all states. In fact, there is already a form of state autonomy for some states right now. States will figure out what is best for them, even if it leads to weird arrangements, like in Indiana.
The only benefit to the current system is inertia and not having to make a decision.
Re: (Score:2)
As I say every year, twice a year - change it by half an hour, one time, and be done with it.
Re: (Score:2)
> Some of us want it ended in one direction. Some of us want it ended in the other. That's not a reason not to end it.
That in itself is quite a good reason not to end it. It shows that "end daylight savings time" is just a knee-jerk gut reaction.
Re: (Score:2)
Why can't we do it so the clock keeps getting set back only. I need that extra hour of sleep every year. We should ditch the "spring forward" BS though.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Your points are valid, but also very regional. As you, yourself, acknowledge. Let each state decide what works best for them. And if you go far enough north, daylight is shorter than the school day, so your kids will be travelling in the dark either to go to school, or else to come home. Again, a regional problem. The solution is to leave the decision up to the states. Why should the federal government impose a one-size-fits-all solution on the entire country?
Just to note: the problem you mention could eq
Re: (Score:2)
Both parties love to push one-size-fits-all solutions on the states - it's only the topic that changes.
Re: (Score:2)
At the moment we already have to be aware of the existing time (zone) differences, once each state can select their own it becomes a royal mess.
Re: (Score:2)
It would not be much of a mess, not any more than currently. States will naturally coordinate with adjacent states. For example, northwestern Indiana is on Central time to coordinate with business in Chicago, even though the rest of the state is on Eastern time.
Re: (Score:2)
There are obvious advantages to all states changing time in a coordinated way.
At the moment we already have to be aware of the existing time (zone) differences, once each state can select their own it becomes a royal mess.
There are even greater advantages to just not changing clocks at all.
If some location wants to start school at sunrise, then they open the school at whatever hour they want, and they can change the local school opening every week if they want. Same for government offices and businesses.
Re: Maximise useful sunlight hours (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
But these effects work best at the higher latitudes, it hardly works south of the Canadian border.
A few years ago the EU has cancelled the demand for DST but so far not a single country has during summer gone back to standard time.
The advantages to all being on the same time is a bigger advantage in Europe, for many US states this is not an issue as there are differen
Re: (Score:2)
But these effects work best at the higher latitudes, it hardly works south of the Canadian border.
San Francisco is about 800 miles south of the Canadian border and switching to daylight saving time in the summer works there. Without DST days would start [timeanddate.com] before 5am for a couple of months in the summer. How about permanent DST? That would mean a winter sunrise after 8.15am for a couple of months. Changing the clocks twice a year avoids this.
Re: (Score:2)
BTW, solar noon in San Fransisco today is 1:20 pm. So even with Pacific Standard Time, solar noon would be coming after 12:00.
Re: (Score:2)
Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's ridiculous. I'm retired now, so it doesn't matter so much to me anymore, but when I was working, it always took me up to a week to get used to either time shift. Most people going on international trips do report "jet lag" problems, and I have been on many intra-national
Re: (Score:2)
When the clocks change it's at most 17 days before sunrise / sunset is "back" to the time it was before the change. Not very long, but during that time there is a benefit by not having to commute in the dark. In winter, you'll end up doing that anyway, so may as well delay the inevitable as much as possible.
In more southerly latitudes where that doesn't really apply there is an inflated opinion of inconvenience and entitlement over changing a clock because that's apparently so fucking onerous to do somethin
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I enjoyed commuting in the dark, at especially in the morning, when I was able to sleep a little on the train.
Re: (Score:1)
In summer, I prefer sunlight at 8pm when I can enjoy it rather than at 4am when I am asleep.
In winter, I prefer to commute and have my children to go to school in sunlight rather than darkness.
The inconvenience argument is also dubious and diminishing every year, because most devices update automatically.
I suspect everyone in favour lives at low latitudes, or doesn’t understand the basics on sunlight and seasons.
The answer is that everyone goes on standard time, and the Northern regions change the school and store opening hours to match what works best for their location. And the Southern locations just keep the same opening times year-round if it suits them.
There is no reason why a school or business in Maine has to have the same 8:00 AM clock opening time as Florida.
Also, Consider that the western side of a time zone has a sunrise that is an hour later than the eastern side, so they're relatively always on daylig
Re: (Score:2)
Personally, I love the extra light later in the day year round. I just get tired of the changes and wish they'd abolish the changes all together, which ever direction they pick.
Re: (Score:2)
To give you a counter example: In hot climates plenty of people prefer sunlight at 4am where they can get up early and do activities while it's still cool outside before work, rather than 8pm when it's stinking hot.
And to continue the counter example I prefer my kids to go to school in the dark so they don't grow up to be little whiny bitches. In many countries going to school in the light isn't an option and the kids do alright. Stop coddling the next generation of whimps.
Re: (Score:2)
This. So much this. As someone whose night vision is not great. I love Daylight Savings Time, and expect most people with some degree of night blindness agree with me.
Republicans would prefer to put the clock back... (Score:2, Insightful)
to the 19th century when women and blacks knew their place.
Re: Republicans would prefer to put the clock back (Score:2)
I think we should keep it (Score:5, Funny)
Because we all hate it, and that's the one thing that unifies us as a nation. If we got rid of it, there'd be nothing for us all to hate together.
Re: (Score:2)
You think we're hateful? try traveling (Score:2)
We specialize in hate.
You haven't traveled much or met many foreigners, have you? If you think the USA is hateful, you should see the rest of the world. We're not perfect, but the more you get out of your bubble, you realize, we're a lot better than any place I've seen. I can tell you most of Northern Europe is no better...ask the rural Swedes how they feel about an Arab or African marrying their daughter. The former Soviet States are FAAAAR worse...
Inda?...the hateful KKK-grade shit that would get you fired here, is just n
Re: (Score:1)
Just ask the most hated person in America what should be done and then do that. Or the opposite, doesn't matter, one way or another whatever the government will do will be the wrong thing.
MST [Mountain Standard Time] (Score:1)
Just use it, and share times with people in it.
Re: (Score:1)
Won't anyone think of Spain? (Score:3)
Spain has been in the same timezone as Germany since General Franco set it that way to express his admiration of Adolf Hitler, although geography indicates they should be in the same zone as Portugal, Britain and Ireland. The Spanish have adapted by getting up an hour later than other countries in that zone, although I'll admit I don't know what they did before Franco.
Do northern States like Indiana, Michigan or Minnesota have the option of starting their schools an hour earlier in the cold and dark months? As an alternative, they could move one zone to the west.
Re: (Score:1)
Do northern States like Indiana, Michigan or Minnesota have the option of starting their schools an hour earlier in the cold and dark months?
Sure, why not? Individual jurisdictions can adjust stuff like that. It's far less of a sledgehammer than making everyone change their clocks twice a year.
Re: Won't anyone think of Spain? (Score:2)
hahahaha (Score:3, Interesting)
[U.S. political leaders] also say they are grappling with whether the nation should permanently move the clocks forward one hour, an idea championed by lawmakers on the coasts who say it would allow for more sunshine during the winter, or remain on year-round standard time, which is favored by neurologists who say it aligns with our circadian rhythms.
This administration? Listen to scientists about what's best for people? That's a good one!
Re:hahahaha (Score:5, Insightful)
This administration's "scientists" are too busy re-studying settled science - such as re-investigating whether vaccines cause autism [go.com].
They want to cut government, yet apparently also want to waste some portion of those fewer dollars.
regional? solution is obvious (Score:2)
It the opinions are regional, why not adjust time zones accordingly? NYC/LA would permanently shift to summer time; Indianapolis to standard time.
Re: (Score:2)
New England should move to Atlantic Time with Nova Scotia and the Canadian maritimes
State matter (Score:1)
Permanent DST is Impossible (Score:2)
Just try it.
After a few years of various folks whining about driving / biking / walking to work or school in the dark in the winter, the schools shift their time an hour later, the businesses follow suit to allow employees to take the kids to school, and eventually you are back to standard time. So you get off work which now runs 10 to 6 instead of 9 to 5, still can't get in a round of golf after work, nor rake the leaves in the fall, do gardening, etc. and have to push it to the weekend. Raking leaves
Re: (Score:2)
"So you get off work which now runs 10 to 6 instead of 9 to 5,"
The mythical 9 to 5 job. Real work times over my career were 7 to 3:30, 8 to 4:30, 8 to 5 (the only job that gave an hour for lunch,) and 7:30 to 4.
The shift workers were either 7 to 7 or 6 to 6.
solution (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
But realise that city is about an hour west of Greenwich...
Hurry up (Score:1)
Hopefully in my lifetime, lol (Score:1)
No (Score:2)
No we are not
Solution (Score:2)
>"they are grappling with whether the nation should permanently move the clocks forward one hour, an idea championed by lawmakers on the coasts who say it would allow for more sunshine during the winter, or remain on year-round standard time, which is favored by neurologists"
Indeed, in the modern world, most of us are very fed up with this stupid practice of twice-a-year time changes. I favor the move forward an hour (summer time) and stay there. But I understand not all States want that.
Solution: Let
Just standardize on Unix time (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Oops, sorry I missed you for lunch, I thought you said 1745124938!
Why can't you split the diff? (Score:4, Insightful)
And move it 30 minutes?
Re: (Score:2)
I know, easy, right? I mean, our politicians are SO good at agreeing on some kind of middle ground! (sarcasm)
Right after the year (Score:4, Funny)
of the Linux Desktop!
Ditch GMT, use Mar a Lago Very Mean Time (Score:2)
What could make more sense than running the prime meridian through Trumps ensuite
It isn’t broken. Don’t try to fix it. (Score:1)
Just Stop This Already (Score:2)
We're never going to change DST, ever, so twice a year we get these "well are we close to ending DST" year after year after year. So just stop these articles already
When we do attempt to change DST, we get this continuous stream of bullshit excuses from lawmakers instead. Some vague "federal government" issue, so all legislatures just sit there and go back to lining their pockets with money. And the average person is content to just sit there and post messages twice a year on some social media, then go b
The title is too long... (Score:2)
Been there,done that-hotfixed 1974,repealed 1974 (Score:2)
Setting clocks SUCKS...but what sucks even more?...dropping your kids off at school in the dark for a month or 2 in winter. Many more people end up driving to work in the dark as well...and the people who get up early are the ones who ten
Split the difference (Score:2)
everyone goes on about this, but (Score:2)
why not just shift the time by 30 minutes and be done with it permanently?
Itâ(TM)s just a stupid headline that gets everybody all riled up twice a year. It is incredibly stupid.
The middle of the day should be 12 PM (Score:2)
Are the people f
It's a latitude thing (Score:2)
Not sure if trump is pushing for the change because he doesn't know how to change the time on a clock or if it is because he confuses DST with DJT?
Re: (Score:2)
Because who needs standard time zones? We should go back to a time where you needed books to figure out when your train would arrive because every kept to a different time schedule.
Standardization is one part of the government's responsibility. Everyone on the same page, not doing whatever they feel like.
Re: (Score:2)
My understanding is that right now states have 2 options: standard time year round, or DST with the start/end dates set by the feds. The feds could just as easily allow states a 3rd option, DST all ye
Re:Federalism (Score:4, Interesting)
"Just like the Dept. of Education: The feds don't need to involve themselves in every detail of life."
Yes, but the regime that wants to eliminate the dept. of education sticks its nose in other aspects of how people live (i.e. faith base initiatives, suppression of the right s of the transgendered, etc.)
Excluding criminal acts such as murder, kidnapping, and theft, you'll never see a regime in power be completely agnostic about how people should conduct their lives.
Re:Federalism (Score:5, Informative)
Just like the Dept. of Education: The feds don't need to involve themselves in every detail of life.
I love the poorly educated
--Donald Trump 2016
https://www.reuters.com/articl... [reuters.com]
Re: Just do it already (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Society is hung up on arbitrary hours (e.g. 4 AM). So there isn't really a problem with "early" sunrise, other than habits and schedules that don't take into account the sun. Just go with closest to solar noon and get on with life - civilization will adjust.
Re: time change good (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The other one that comes up is farmers complaining about DST changes confusing cows for milking. However the cows are probably using sunrise as their reference and can adapt to a few minutes changes each day from the farmer using a clock time. Theses days the farmer and milk collection trucks etc could base their schedules relative to sunrise as modern phones