Lithium Deposit Valued At $1.5 Trillion Discovered In Oregon (earth.com) 114
Longtime Slashdot reader schwit1 shares a report from Earth.com: McDermitt Caldera in Oregon is attracting attention for what could be one of the largest lithium deposits ever identified in the United States. Many view it as a potential boost for domestic battery production, while local communities voice concern over the impact on wildlife and cultural sites. The excitement stems from estimates that value the deposit at about $1.5 trillion. Some geologists say these ancient volcanic sediments could contain between 20 and 40 million metric tons of lithium. The study is published in the journal Minerals.
Plausibly so what (Score:5, Insightful)
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As are lithium mines, especially in the US.
And when demand grows faster than supply? (Score:2)
... they're uneconomical at these price levels
As are lithium mines, especially in the US.
Recall those supply and demand graphs from Econ 101? What happens to price when demand grows faster than supply?
Do you think the increased electrification of US transportation, homes, and industry will increase demand?
Now consider US tariffs that seek to erase the economic advantage of suppliers that tolerate pollution to undercut the prices of US and EU based operations. Could that be another factor?
Declared a strategic reserve ... (Score:2)
How much is our autonomy, independence, and a lack of strings attached really worth?
If it is easily and quickly accessible. The preceding could result in the deposit being declared a strategic reserve and made off limits for now. Held in reserve for a time of war when supply chain disruptions are likely.
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My "GeolNotebook" file tells me the crustal abundance is 0.0000181 (0.000013 - 0.000022) kg/kg - which is in the order of a couple of grains of table salt (or regular granulated sugar) per kg of rock mined. At the cost of literally
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The simple fact is that you simply just don't need that much. A typical li-ion battery, despite the name, is only 2-3% lithium by mass. And lithium deposits are on the order of 1% lithium, give or take depending on the type and quality of deposit (salar and clay less, spodumene more).
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The amount of lithium available in a given deposit is much less important than how cheaply accessible the lithium is. Costly lithium isn't worth much right now, we've about as much lithium as nickel in the earth's crust, and we mined 3.5 million tonnes of nickel last year vs only 180,000 tonnes of lithium. I.E. we could expand production by 20x before starting to worry about one day some of this maybe getting more expensive like we are with nickel as we contemplate mining the sea floor for it. But until then the name of the game is the cheapest lithium first, so in the immediate future it only matters how cheap, or expensive, this deposit is to extract
Lithium in itself might have a competitor. Sodium ion batteries, that were being developed around the same time as Lithium batteries, are similar in energy (a bit less) and safer. Lithium isn't magic and unique, as many think.
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Anyone who makes some simple claim about "sodium-ion batteries are X" doesn't even know the start of what they're talking about.
Sodium-ion batteries are not a single chemistry. Each chemistry has its own advantages and disadvantages; they don't share a single set of properties. Heck, if there's any single most common advantages and disadvantages, it's ones almost nobody talks about: high diffusion rates and poor SEI formation.
The investment over the past several years on Na-ion was in large part a bet tha
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Anyone who makes some simple claim about "sodium-ion batteries are X" doesn't even know the start of what they're talking about.
Sodium-ion batteries are not a single chemistry. Each chemistry has its own advantages and disadvantages; they don't share a single set of properties. Heck, if there's any single most common advantages and disadvantages, it's ones almost nobody talks about: high diffusion rates and poor SEI formation.
The investment over the past several years on Na-ion was in large part a bet that lithium prices were going to stay super-high ('22-23 price spike), which should have been obvious to anyone that they wouldn't.
You do a fantastic job of missing the point - the batteries are in production as we write. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=sod... [amazon.com] We can buy them right now. My point stands. There are viable alternatives to Lithium based batteries. If you wish to give a dissertation on the various anode and cathode configurations, be my guest. I know the big words, and can judge you accuracy.
Basically, sodium ions are used as the intercalating ions rather than Lithium ions. But why deep dive into the details, when the entir
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The main reason sodium ion batteries are promising as a technology is because it's cheap. We have to remember Li-Ion batteries have been around since the 70s, commercially available in the mid-90s. Sodium ion batteries are a 2000's era technology, and are commercially available on the small scale.
The big thing is that sodium ion battery chemistry is cheap. Lithium Ion batteries are currently less dependent on lithium and more on things like cobalt. Sodium ions are using cheap nickel and carbon, and sodium i
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The main reason sodium ion batteries are promising as a technology is because it's cheap. We have to remember Li-Ion batteries have been around since the 70s, commercially available in the mid-90s. Sodium ion batteries are a 2000's era technology, and are commercially available on the small scale.
The big thing is that sodium ion battery chemistry is cheap. Lithium Ion batteries are currently less dependent on lithium and more on things like cobalt.
They are quite the chemistry project! 8^)
Sodium ions are using cheap nickel and carbon, and sodium is basically trivially available as ions everywhere (you can mine it, you can evaporate it, etc)
And Prussian Blue, of all things, speaking of dirt cheap. Ferric ammonium Citrate and Potassium Ferricyanide. Was used as dyestuff and in a photo process called cyanotype. And Blueprints.
Sodium ion batteries are at the cusp of commercial availability. The operation of them is basically identical to Li-ion purely because it's below Li on the periodic table so any advances on Li-ion can be applied directly to Na. The only downside is well, Na is a bigger atom with more protons and neutrons and thus is heavier. Less critical for self-propelled vehicles (i.e., BEVs), more critical for portable devices. So you can see Li-ion used for cellphones, laptops and other portable electronics, while sodium takes over for BEVs, home battery power walls or as backup "generators" (those high capacity battery systems for powering homes like a generator) and other fixed or semi-portable applications.
I concur. I'm not certain exactly how much heavier Sodium ion batteries will be, but do see a use case situation.
Safety. I was once tasked with producing a battery safety video for teaching people to respect Lithium based batteries. What was eye opening was the balls to the wall ho
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Yeah, great, if you don't care about interstitial water reducing stability and capacity (with a tendency to reabsorb more water after manufacturing); problems with cation vacancies and structural defects; voltage instability due to multi-step redox reactions; difficulty achieving sufficient purity at scale for battery applications; and moderate gravimetric / poor volumetric density compared to alternatives.
People need to stop talking about na-ion like
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No. They "are" [present tense] not cheap. Their is speculation that with sufficient development and sufficient production scales, they could be cheaper than li-ion. This has cooled a lot since the lithium price spike collapsed.
Borderline irrelevant and not a driving factor. Lithium is only 2-3% of the mass of a li-ion ce
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Once again: No. "the" batteries are not in production. A type of sodium-ion battery linked is in production. There are many types of sodium ion batteries in various stages of development, each with their own advantages and disadvantages.
And no, it is not a simple swap of sodium ions for intercalation rather than lithium ions. The chemistry involved is quite different. One of the biggest challenges is that sodium ions don't form very stable SEIs with traditional li-ion electrolytes.
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Once again: No. "the" batteries are not in production. A type of sodium-ion battery linked is in production. There are many types of sodium ion batteries in various stages of development, each with their own advantages and disadvantages.
And no, it is not a simple swap of sodium ions for intercalation rather than lithium ions. The chemistry involved is quite different. One of the biggest challenges is that sodium ions don't form very stable SEIs with traditional li-ion electrolytes.
You seem to want to go out of your way to interpret everything I say as wrong, yet you kinda look pretty obvious doing it.
Here are some companies that are producing batteries as we speak https://sodiumbatteryhub.com/2... [sodiumbatteryhub.com]
https://bcapcodes.org/sodium-i... [bcapcodes.org] They are not producing batteries? And the Sodium-ion batteries I can buy right now off Amazon Do not actually exist and were never in production?
not in production? Utterly bizarre. Your weird logic demands that Lithium ion batteries are not in produc
A local source (Score:5, Funny)
Re:A local source (Score:5, Interesting)
Does this administration think it needs lots of Li, in the first place? It sure doesn’t want EVs to take off, so what’s the point? 87% of Li use is for batteries, and 80% of that is EVs.
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so what’s the point?
Resell it?
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I’m not opposing anything, I’m pointing out the obvious contrast between finding large Li deposits and the administration’s push to crater demand for Li for EVs.
Re:A local source (Score:5, Funny)
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Ha!
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Lots of Li is needed, but not for EVs, and not only for US administration. Li is used for stabilizing mood [wikipedia.org], and given the increasing madness among world leaders, I wonder if Oregon deposits will suffice.
And at one time, there was lithium citrate in 7Up soft drink. FDA banned it in soft drinks in the late 40's.
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Does this administration think it needs lots of Li, in the first place? It sure doesn’t want EVs to take off, so what’s the point? 87% of Li use is for batteries, and 80% of that is EVs.
Everything on Slashdot needs tied into some people's Trump Derangement Syndrome.
My guess is that old Cheeto might not know what a Lithium Ion battery is.
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My guess is that old Cheeto might not know what a Lithium Ion battery is.
so it's not TDS but justified that we have an incurious dullard at the helm. thank you
Oh, there's plenty of Trump Derangement Syndrome to go around that incurious dullard. At this point, part of his fun is living rent free in some people's heads.
Both things can be true.
Re: A local source (Score:2)
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The overwhelmingly important news story in relation to lithium in the US up until this point has been that Trump’s administration has been seeking to reverse buying trends for EVs. This is obviously relevant to a story about Li deposits in the US, and you look like a tool for suggesting otherwise
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The overwhelmingly important news story in relation to lithium in the US up until this point has been that Trump’s administration has been seeking to reverse buying trends for EVs. This is obviously relevant to a story about Li deposits in the US, and you look like a tool for suggesting otherwise
This here tool understands that there is more than one use for lithium, so your derangement syndrome has Cheeto doing what? Killing the geologists who found the forbidden substance? Making lithium illegal or digging it up and deporting it? Lesseee, Phones, laptops, computers, IOT devices, remote cameras, various drones, both commercial, law enforcement and military, as well as entertainment devices, radios for military and law enforcement, as well as emergency services. All use Li.
But you and your TDR m
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I'm pointing out the irony of the contrast between Trump's administration's policy and this discovery, you fucking muppet, not suggesting Trump is going to change policy to shut the discovery down. JFC, you people are just bananas.
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"Screw the trees. We want our trillion dollars!" - Head government officials
I was going to correct you by pointing out that it's a desert area but I think the comment accurately reflects the acumen of the current batch of government officials.
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The ones that just brokered a cease fire between India and Pakistan?
Re: A local source (Score:2)
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Re: A local source (Score:2)
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LOL no they didn't.
The people of both India and Pakistan both said "We aren't responsible for this shit, cut this shit out now before we riot" and Zardari and Modhi's bitch asses blinked.
Re:A local source (Score:5, Insightful)
Does this mean we won't have to invade Greenland now?
No. The "minerals" are only a part of the deal.
Greenland is needed as lebensraum, the dumber among rich and powerful plan to resettle there as the world is heated up by the "woke global warming hoax".
So the war is inevitable.
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And I'm not sure if it is much of a joke.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politi... [nbcnews.com]
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We'll have to invade Oregon.
Flunkie: Oregon has a lot. of lithium. And they are strategically oriented for the U.S.
la Presidenta: Great, we'll invade Oregon. Where is Oregon?
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You've already had the answer to that : it was a pretty near unanimous "fuck off".
I assume the response will be to continue alternating the offer that cannot be refused with overnight delivery of seal's heads to every Greenlander's bed until compliance is achieved.
Re:A local source (Score:5, Informative)
Denmark is a member of NATO and has never objected to more US military support on Greenland.
In other words, it would be foolish to change the present agreements, except for who gets the proceeds of the mining.
The Greenlandic population has made it clear they are not interested in a US take over, the Danes even less.
Besides, the MAGA plans are very similar to what Hitler and Putin did when invading other countries.
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The *Master Negotiator* can make a minerals deal with Denmark if that's so vital and valuable
Oh it's not a great negotiating tactic to threaten the global alliance we share with a nation historically willing to closely work with the US but instead threaten aggressive annexation and basically insult the entire nation you want something from?
"Bold strategy Cotton..."
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The US already has a military base in Greenland. What more would "owning it" achieve?
In related news ... (Score:5, Funny)
Predicting the federal government won't care about that for another 3.75 years ...
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Re:In related news ... (Score:5, Informative)
Trump has been floating the idea of third terms, and the consequent outright suspension of the US Constitution for 3+ years now. You've had your Reichstag moment ; you've elected the dictator. You've just got the wait until your second (arguably third, or even fourth) revolution now. Then you might get another election.
What was that kite being flown about suspending habeas corpus a couple of days ago? Oh yes. The sound of your constitution being butchered in the town square.
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An election, or something?
Apparently, yes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Re: In related news ... (Score:2)
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Predicting the federal government won't care about that for another 3.75 years ...
But Oregon has an EPA equivalent (their Department of Environmental Quality), which will require their own reviews and (as needed) mitigations before any extraction can occur.
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But Oregon has an EPA equivalent (their Department of Environmental Quality), which will require their own reviews and (as needed) mitigations before any extraction can occur.
Didn't know that; learned something - thanks!
Extraction cost? (Score:3)
What's the extraction cost? The number is useless without that. Seawater contains $20 trillion worth of gold (1 gram in 100 million tons of seawater), but it costs many times that amount to extract.
.
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What's the extraction cost?
Infinite. This lithium deposit in the environment. There are plenty of lithium deposits outside the environment, so we don't need to permit mining of this for the foreseeable future.
Re:Extraction cost? (Score:5, Funny)
plenty of lithium deposits outside the environment
Obligatory:
[Interviewer:] So what do you do to protect the environment in cases like this?
[Senator Collins:] Well, the ship was towed outside the environment.
[Interviewer:] Into another environment....
[Senator Collins:] No, no, no. it's been towed beyond the environment, it's not in the environment
[Interviewer:] Yeah, but from one environment to another environment.
[Senator Collins:] No, it's beyond the environment, it's not in an environment. It has been towed beyond the environment.
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Act 1 :
Speaker : We're sending the bad stuff away! Interviewer: Where are you sending it away TO? Speaker : We're not sending it it away TO anywhere. We're just sending it away FROM us!
Act 2 :
Speaker's Audience : [satisfied]
There is no Act 3.
Great! (Score:5, Funny)
Now all you need to do is pay people below living wage to mine it and contaminate the local landscape with the tailings. Then you can make the big bucks!
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Hidden stage on The Oregon Trail: You died due to lithium miners demanding a fair wage rising up and attacking your campsite. Also dysentery.
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Now all you need to do is pay people below living wage to mine it and contaminate the local landscape with the tailings. Then you can make the big bucks!
I know, right? That stuff should be outsourced to dusky foreigners, like nature intended! Sheesh!
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It depends on what you call "living" wage I suppose. The average US mine worker wage is $21 an hour, about $45K per year. https://www.ziprecruiter.com/S... [ziprecruiter.com] 3x minimum wage, and enough to live on in many places in the US, including the kinds of places where these mines would be.
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The source is nontoxic clay.
The output is nontoxic clay.
The solution to the tailings is "put them back in the hole".
Not surprised that Sierra Club is opposed. (Score:2, Insightful)
Is there any kind of development of human civilization that the Sierra Club is not opposed to seeing built? I'm baffled these morons are given the time of day.
If there's going to be viable electric cars then we need lithium. The fine article points out that the Sierra Club believes that alternatives to lithium could be used for making batteries. Okay then, if there's mining for this alternative mineral someplace else would they come out in favor of it? Or find some excuse to oppose mining in that place
Re:Not surprised that Sierra Club is opposed. (Score:5, Insightful)
Or find some excuse to oppose mining in that place and/or for that mineral?
Of course. Sierra Club, Aspen Institute, and all the other pressure groups are — like all pressure groups — single minded. There is no commercial/economic activity they support. None. And there never will be.
Fortunately, that's not actually a problem. Such pressure groups are a natural and inevitable consequence of a free society, and they are free to adopt whatever irrational polices they wish. The problem is, nearly our entire ruling class lives in abject fear of any blemish on their Sierra Club report card. They fear this more than any other consequence they can imagine. For them, not being in good standing with Sierra Club is the greatest known evil in our world. If they find themselves unable to attend a dinner party and receive smiles and handshakes from Sierra Club grandees, they are social pariah, on the order of KKK members.
That's a tremendous accomplishment. It's the highly successful product of over a century of cultural engineering. It took a staggering amount of money and influence and patience to achieve this, and now they are the gatekeepers of essentially every aspect of governance in the Western world.
Re: Not surprised that Sierra Club is opposed. (Score:1)
The soviets funded the greenies during the cold war. Now it's the chinese footing the bill.
Cui bono?
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nearly our entire ruling class lives in abject fear of any blemish on their Sierra Club report card.
I think this really overstates how much they are fretting over things like these groups.
Sure they may like pandering to those groups as convenient, but it's obvious from a vague look around that corporate interests will shrug all that off without a thought if it can make a few more bucks.
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How to say you don't understand the periodic table without actually admitting it.
Essentially similar chemistry for batteries can be achieved using sodium in place of lithium. The batteries don't have such a high stored-energy per unit volume metric as the lithium versions, but outside transportation systems that's not such a big deal. Building a lithium-based
Re: Not surprised that Sierra Club is opposed. (Score:2)
Then the Sierra Club should spend money researching sodium batteries or building a battery plant. And your own post says "Except for transportation" so sodium batteries aren't a solution anyway
Re: Not surprised that Sierra Club is opposed. (Score:2)
Lithium (Score:2)
I thought Nirvana was from Seattle.
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The Peking government has a stop for Nirvana on the high-speed rail line if your ass isn't donkey-shaped, or you have more than 5 donkey loads of freight to move.
Good luck (Score:2)
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Democrats provided incentives for mining and production was increasing:
IRA at 1: Speed of mining investments surprises experts [spglobal.com]
NIMBY (Score:2)
Oregonians won't want this because it's in...Oregon. They're OK with lithium mining in Ukraine because that helps the environment (by enabling EV batteries to be built) and the mining activity is far away. But we don't want it here in the US, that's messy and dirty.
Haha good luck (Score:2)
Haha good luck opening a mine in Oregon. Have you checked how Orgonians vote?
Regulatory and trade uncertainty (Score:2)
Getting lithium isn't the problem, refining it is. (Score:2)
The US has access to a lot of lithium. That's never been the problem. The issue is that the US has virtually zero lithium refining capacity. China has lots.
Propaganda (Score:2)
Forest? (Score:5, Informative)
Umm... the McDermitt Caldera is desert terrain as it's near the border with Nevada.
Re:Forest? (Score:4, Funny)
So you admit to being an ignoramus that posts without checking your own claims?
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It's difficult to believe you've never made a similar assumption. He did check: His own hands-on experience said Oregon landscape was complete forest. At least, it's better than "some 'expert' on Fox News told me." Yes, he should have sought more details instead of assuming his own experience was relevant. (A failure, most of us have suffered.)
I read it as a joke, and yes Oregon has a lot of trees. It has trees, a coastline, Some Mountains, a pretty big river, and an area called the Palouse that it shares with Washington State. The McDermott Caldera is an area sheared with Nevada
The town of McDermitt actually sits in both Idaho and Nevada.
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In defense of his defense I've been to Oregon and saw nothing but trees [some of the most beautiful mountain forest I've ever seen actually] as well. Worse I *lived* in Northern Nevada as a child and still forgot it even shared a border with Oregon.
In *my* defense I was in grade school when I lived there, Nevada borders a lot of states and I at least know that there are trees in deserts and deserts with trees because a desert is not defined by precipitation not vegetation.
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He didn't just make geographically-ignorant comments, but also also didn't bother to read the paper, which had this picture [nature.com] as its cover.
It's a lithium clay in an enclosed hydrologic basin. Barren scrubland in the middle of nowhere. The extraction process involves digging up clay, running it through an extraction process (if an acid extraction, then followed by neutralization), and then put back from whence it came.
A typical EV only contains 5-10kg of lithium, and the clay at the adjacent Thacker Pass is ~0
Some specialized endangered critter (Score:2)
It's a lithium clay in an enclosed hydrologic basin. Barren scrubland in the middle of nowhere. The extraction process involves digging up clay, running it through an extraction process (if an acid extraction, then followed by neutralization), and then put back from whence it came.
That may be true, but in such a specialized environment, some specialized endangered critter can surely be found to be the basis of some lawsuit.
And that neutralization and other anti-pollution efforts will drive up prices. Manufacturers will just turn to Chinese lithium suppliers that turn regions into toxic wastelands. That's no problem, the pollution will be on their stats not ours, so we are fully greenwashed.
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So you admit to being an ignoramus that posts without checking your own claims?
pssst.. Hey buddy? He was making a joke!
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Re: Forest? (Score:2)
This *is* slashdot, after all...
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Some caldera's do actually have forests in them.
And some articles include photos of the calderas they are referring to.
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We haven't even touched a single percentage of the crust, and to actually "shrink" that crust you'd also have to reduce the volume of everything below the crust, mantle, core, etc.