The Road to Linux: The Descent (Part One) 205
So the Road to Linux, it turns out, isn't exactly an Interstate. There's all sorts of potholes, construction delays and unmarked turns. I can't say I wasn't warned, only that I was too dense to quite get it.
First, I had to survive nearly getting roasted alive for weeks, after I posted the first mysterious question-mark and apostrophe-filled columns from my Power Mac 7100/80 using Microsoft Word 8. After years of writing online, my technology as well as my opinions had suddenly become controversial. People were not simply disagreeing with me, but challenging my techno-identity and geekhood, in some cases demanding that I go away, urging Slashdot to make me go away. One thread actually took up the question of how to stop publication of my next book, which is about geeks.
I also got several thousand pieces of advice, much of it conflicting, from friendly, generous, sometimes impassioned Linux advocates suggesting programs, approaches, systems and techniques I didn't understand and had never heard of.
Jeff wrote that I should do what he did, get a clone. "A K6-300 mhz machine with 32 megs of memory, a 4GHD, etc., $479 at a computer show. I used an old svga monitor," he wrote. He urged me to undertake four tasks. One: Install Linux. Two:Get the Xwindows (GUI) working. Three: Get it on my home network. Four Get it on the Net. Others wrote of their own Linux experiences, nightmares and triumphs and urged me to hang in there: "I know it's hard," wrote Sam - in a message I've since posted above my monitor, "but believe me, it's worth it. It's about knowledge, freedom and getting to the next place. Be patient. Ask for help. Take it."
Okay. My house is now crammed with fat, ugly Linux guides that my wife and kid stare at in mistrust and confusion. On the floor is "Linux for Dummies," which, despite its name, is even more incomprehensible than the two-pound "Secrets of Linux" I keep around, largely unread, as a potential weapon against intruders.
At my elbow is "Linux in 24 Hours," ("when you only have time for the answers: 24 proven one-hour lessons"). Despite its alluring title, and the promise of answers, I, like Gertrude Stein, am still trying to figure out the questions. I got in trouble in Hour Two: "If you already have Linux on your system, an install using partitions will overwrite all the data currently there." I surrendered by Hour 18: "Scheduling Personal Reminders and Tasks with the "at" Command. It was the "car pool" example that finished me off:
# at 16:15
X message - display: 0.0 "The car pool is leaving in 15 minutes."
EOT
Job 4 will be executed using /bin/sh
I put this book aside. I wondered if this wasn't merely a ruse to lure hapless newbies onto Linux sites, where the secret agenda was to sufficiently discourage them, preserving Linux as yet another big but exclusive club. The idea is brilliant, really: You create something new and collaborative and demand that everybody use it; when they try, they find it impossible and run away, or are chased off for being dumb.
But fortunately for me, I am as willful as I am technologically-impaired. I needed to use Linux. And, after nearly a decade on the Net and the Web, no ill-mannered geeks were chasing me anywhere. I went to O'Reilly's much praised "Linux In A Nutshell" by Jessica Perry Hekman.
It's not only written in something I more or less recognize as English, but it alone mentions some of the many powerful reasons for taking Linux on: "Linux revises the grand creativity and the community of sharing that UNIX was long known for. The unprecedented flexibility and openness of UNIX - which newcomers usually found confusing and frustrating, but which they eventually found they couldn't live without - continually inspired extensions, new tools like Perl, and experiments in computer science that sometimes ended up in mainstream commercial systems."
Such analysis is critical in books like this. It gives people some context, some rationale for why they should endure what they're about to endure.
"Linux In A Nutshell" is exceptionally well-organized and designed --- logical, coherent, even patient. I learned a lot from it, including the broad outlines of how an operating system like Linux works - something I never got even the slightest sense of after nearly 10 years as a Mac loyalist. In an odd sort of way, that was the appeal of Macs for people like me: you never have to really learn much about the computer. I was slow to consider the implications of that. The toughest thing to grasp is what you don't know.
In fact, I didn't know how much of my computer I'd never seen or how much of it I could control, personalize or change if I were willing to take the time. That I was buying so much junk I didn't want, was completely at the mercy of greedy corporations, using so much memory and speed on things I didn't need, was a shocker. If I were willing to take the trouble, learn the language, computing would become an utterly different experience.
Unfortunately, even this cogent book was too much too fast. And I'd skipped over the caution in the prologue: "If you haven't obtained Linux yet, or have it but don't know exactly how to get started using it, buy the O'Reilly &Associates book ?Running Linux,? by Matt Welsh and Lar Kaufman. This will give you everything you need in order to install your Linux system, configure it, and start becoming productive. The book you're looking at will now prove useful."
So back to Amazon. "Running Linux" is now at the top of the pile.
Meanwhile, most of my helpful e-mail advisors came to the conclusion that I should get a pre-configured Linux Box. A gentle way of telling me I was a long shot to make it through installing Linux myself. Geeks can figure this out in about two e-mails. That message was disappointing, but it was also true.
The processing of installing Linux was likely to discourage, not empower me. As a professional writer, the technics were less important than the result, and less important to me than the politics and symbolism. I couldn't really afford - either in time or money - the long and often bruising process that installing Linux from scratch can be. (Although not always: Davin Hills messaged that a friend handed him a CD and he installed Linux in about an hour.)
So, a Linux box. I went to a Virginia company called International Information Services (www.iisworld.com), which five or six /. regulars had recommended highly.
The people at IIS had been reading Slashdot, it turned out, and recognized my name when I called. They knew the spot I was in. Matthew Shields was calm and patient. I told him I had to get up and running early, or I'd bog down. My hard drive is filled with aborted programs and games I've never mastered and quickly abandoned.
Matthew said he would build me my own machine, assembling the parts from different places. He suggested a Pentium I, or to be more precise, an Intel Pentium 233 MMX, with 32 MB Ram, a 1.2 GB HB, a Floppy and CD-Rom drive, a 2MB PCI video card, and a 56kbs modem, with a refurbished 15" Sony Trinotron tube.
This would cost, he figured, somewhere in the range of $600, by half the least amount of money I'd ever spent on a computer. The box would include Redhat, a word processing program, and IIS would even configure my ISP for me if I gave them the numbers. I should be able to plug the box in, turn it on, and start running Linux, with a desktop that would be familiar and coherent to a Macman. Then, I could move along at my own pace, learning as I went.
I admit to fantasizing a bit about posting my first column using Linux. Even though my box was assembled by somebody else, it would still be an achievement, a landmark. I'd please all the people who supported this trip, and who obviously care deeply about the Net, the Web and OSS, and I could give a delicious digital finger to all the arrogant creeps who had been jeering along the way. I would be practicing what I preach, earning spurs, controlling my technology, breaking free of corporate marketmeisters.
Matthew was out sick, which delayed things a bit. Then there were various snowstorms. My current ISP doesn't handle Linux, so I had to get another one. The holidays intervened, then some traveling for work. Finally, last Saturday, the two boxes arrived on my front porch.
[ CT : Tomorrow, Part 2, where Jon's Linux box is savagely beaten, eaten, and maybe even repaired ]
Re: What if your ISP is running RAS on NT... blah. (Score:1)
I don't think they are likely to use IPX, and I don't think RAS works with NetBEUI.
Disclaimer: I haven't tried this in a while, and I may be forgetting something. Your mileage may vary.
So who returns Windows? (Score:1)
Mind you, my computer started up and it presented me with a Microsoft license agreement, which ended with two buttons:
[I accept this agreement] [Shut down computer]
Fortunately, I had a FreeBSD boot floppy handy. That gave me *lots* of choices! All of which I liked better than the two choices Microsoft offered.
Don't forget Febuary 15th, Windows Refund Day [thenoodle.com].
Linux - user friendly? (Score:1)
xyzzy (Score:1)
xyzzy (Score:1)
There's alot. Trust me.
Johnny Depp?? (Score:1)
Just wondering Jon, did you really mean Johnny Depp, or Johnny Deep? I ask because neither 21 Jump Street nor Ed Wood puts me in the mind of "The Complete Geek."
Johnny Depp?? Yes... Johnny Depp (Score:1)
"ISP doesn't handle Linux"? (Score:1)
* Unfortunatly they are usually on the net.
Linux - user friendly? (Score:1)
check out www.iisworld.com :) (Score:1)
Pi (Score:1)
Readers missing the point -- But still... (Score:1)
However, while this is a "professional writer", Jon does not seem to afford his Slashdot articles the same attention that he would other pieces of work. There were several places that were rough at best. This would earn an automatic C if I turned it in to any college level course. Fragments, the infamous typing of the same words two times in a row, and many misspellings such as Trinotron which to the rest of the world is Trinitron.
All in all, I thought it was a good article. It's the type of thing that I actually read when published in PC Computing, PC Week, or any of the hundreds of other PC [fill in the blank] publications that line every supermarket aisle in the United States.
YA-MacUser's advice to Katz (Score:1)
So you are a Mac dude, Jon Katz? You're in luck- get an extra drive to put in your Mac, and run linux on _that_. I can tell you that it's easier that way. The bootloader is an extension and control panel (BootX, which rocks!) and is totally friendly. You can partition the drive in Drive Setup, _Mac_ style, and then simply copy the numbers for the pre-existing partitions. And you can boot back into MacOS and re-run the RAM disk for reinstalling Linux anytime you like, painlessly. Mac Linux is great, it's very effective.
I really think you should be using Linux from a platform you know...
Well... (Score:1)
Ack, don't tell newbies to use 'info'!
What it all boils down to is that people don't want to learn. I don't remember people complaining when they had to edit their config.sys or autoexec.bat on DOS by hand, yet now using a text editor is some horribly barbaric thing? Please. I agree with whoever said that reading books isn't the best way to go about it, personally I read the manpage to find the config file, read the config file manpage if there is one, and try to do it using the manpages and comments in the config file. If that isn't enough for me to understand it, I go read the docs in the source distribution.
The only times I've used a HOWTO have been when I wanted to do something quick and dirty -- my single use has been the DNS HOWTO. (I'll probably use the Coffee mini-HOWTO because I have no EE skills, but I digress)...I'm sure the other HOWTOs are great, but many don't go deep enough to help you *understand* what you're doing, and instead consist of "type this here" and "type that there".
Linux - user friendly? (Score:1)
The only thing these "You're all elitists!" whines ever tell me is that there's one more person out there who doesn't want to learn.
"find" works that way because "find" aims to be Un*xlike. BTW, "find" (under a Linux system, at least) is most likely from GNU/FSF, and doesn't have a damn thing to do with Linux.
And you're right, many of us *don't* want to write luser-friendly software because it's NOT INTERESTING. I don't hack on code to bring tons more people into free software, I hack on code because it's REALLY FUN. It also pays back My Debt, which is the debt I owe the community for having all this great software available to me. It's simply not at ALL interesting to write some lame GUI wrapper for every tool that is already out there, duplication of work isn't very cool (isn't that what open software is about?).
You want a GUI 'find'? You've got a few choices:
a) write it yourself
b) convince someone else it's a Good Thing to write (Good Thing meaning it's got hack value or fills a need of theirs -- most hackers I know don't need a GUI find)
c) pay someone to write it for you
You get what you paid for.
And yes, I *am* an elitist. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.
RPM micro how-to :-) (Score:1)
rpm -i {filename} install a package
rpm -U {filename} upgrade a package
rpm -e {packagename} for erase(uninstall)
rpm -q {packagename} for a query(see if the package is installed and what version)
{packagename} does not include the version number or the
I'm sorry, but I just don't get it (Score:1)
I have never, to my knowledge, chosen to comment on anything Katz has said or done, but I think this post is really the final straw. You never even tried to install it Jon. YOU NEVER EVEN TRIED. That's just pathetic. A fourteen year old without a single iota of UNIX experience could install an anchient version of Slackware simply by choosing the default settings and making rational decisions (I did, at least). What is your excuse, after God knows how much time of being a writer about technology, for not having the faintest idea of what a partition is?
I'm sorry if I sound harsh...everyone knows that technical manuals and such can be esoteric at times. But I've never seen such a sincere lack of effort coming from a human being before. I'm picturing you sitting at home and reading through Linux books very carefully, and after each page throwing up your hands and yelling "this stuff is utter nonsense!" Then, having read an entire 500 page book without even having attempted to glean the slightest bit of knowledge from it, you run to your mac and whip up a little piece saying the reason you like it is because you don't have to understand anything to use it.
I'll be honest with you -- Linux is not for everyone. I had hopes for you because of your background, but your recent writings have left me wondering why somone would choose to write about technology for a living, when the slightest hint of it turns him into a blithering idiot.
Really now Katz, buckle up. I don't want to sound condescending or superior, but I'm sure you have at least a bachlors from some university or another. Surely during the course of earning this degree you were forced to actually remember and apply information from something you had read. I realize that for some reason whenever the thing you're reading concerns Linux you lose this ability; but perhaps, given the plethora of material you have scattered about your home, you might take the trouble to learn one, single, tiny thing about it before re-appearing on slashdot and giving us another lectur^H^H^H^H^H^H editorial on what you consider to be "technology."
-W.W.
P.S. If you ever need any help, be sure to ask.
Because (Score:1)
Linux geeks aren't the only folks who read
Besides, if you don't care about the article, skip it.
Patience??? (Score:1)
Maybe you watch too many movies. I like your message but not your delivery...
As with everything ... (Score:1)
Since this is my very 1st post since I discovered Slash Dot some 6 months ago, consider my goat got.
I dont understand people who go about attempting to do then drop it at the beginning signs of difficutly. This seems to be a continuing theme throughtout the nineties ( but lets not go there ).
What strikes me is that your finally decision ( and I dont care who told you what, our decisions are our own ) was to get someone else to make you your linux box.
So there you will be, a linux box with some win applications on it, putzing around for a bit, writing up columns for whomever calls upon you, then, most probably, you will go back to your MAC.
So much for your linux experience. I dont profess that linux is an easy task to understand, let alone master, but I would like to spend my time on articles people write, about people who actually do something, instead of trying and finding an quick fix.
There are so many little details in linux that a pre-made box will hide from you. But it is these details that give linux it's charm, regardless what the pundits say.
I do hope you see it ( linux ) for what it is and not because it is the latest fade or a weapon against Microsoft.
My suggestion to you is reformat the box and re-install linux yourself, or dont bother and dont profess ( or in your case, dont defend yourself as a geek when your actions do not dictate such a title ). And I do wish you luck and good fortune if you decide to go about it reinstalling it yourself.
As with everything, the reward is in the quality of the attempt.
Like you should talk. (Score:1)
Sorry, you cliche-wielding bumblefuck, but spewing out the "you're all nerds with no lives, I'm gonna go get laid!" schtick is moronic. What are you, bOb allisat? You inspire not respect, but instead a tremendous desire to beat you upside the the head with a cloobat.
Of course, I shouldn't give any response other than a carefully wiedled "BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!" to one who claims to have followed Jon "More hot air than Limbaugh" Katz around for eyars.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH!
Slashdotters acting like adolescent morons. (Score:1)
Spell lames don't even count on Usenet.
netcom? (Score:1)
difficulty of installing (Score:1)
I've used a RedHat installation to help me with my Windows installation...
I can install RH in about a half hour... Windows... Hours, even days. And I've done numerous installations of both...
Now Slackware 2-3 years ago, downloaded onto floppies via modem... THAT was a bitch. Slack on CD was only slightly better.
PPP howto? (Score:1)
Then I started using pppd/minicom, and then I tried RedHat's control panel... It's sooooo easy with RedHat. Esp. with Earthlink, which automagically sets up your machine for their DNS...
Gem of a paragraph (Score:1)
>I'd never seen or how much of it I could control,
>personalize or change if I were willing to take
>the time. That I was buying so much junk I didn't
>want, was completely at the mercy of greedy
>corporations, using so much memory and speed on
>things I didn't need, was a shocker. If I were
>willing to take the trouble, learn the language,
>computing would become an utterly different
>experience.
umm. exactly. So stop being afraid to try.
Why ? (Score:1)
Bell Atlantic (Score:1)
Don't be redundant redundant (Score:1)
I would think that a PROFESSIONAL journalist, would grammar check their stories before posting them, I guess I was wrong.
I never claimed to be a journalist you putz (Score:1)
If he'd get off his "I've been a geek writer for years" soap box and just write, he's gain much more respect and far less flames for his mistakes.
That hurt Jon (Score:1)
You really shouldn't post anonymously, it makes you look silly.
Once again, I'll give a rats ass about MY OWN grammar when I start saying that I deserve some sort of respect from people for all my years of journalistic service like you always do.
Until that day comes, I don't give a shit.
a Linux Box was delivered this week to (Score:1)
Jon, unsurprisingly, has had editors working over his text for his entire career. It should not come as a shock to anyone that he is out of the habit of performing sufficient cycles of editing to generate polished, publication ready prose.
It is still readable, so give the guy a break.
No.
xyzzy. (Score:1)
--Phil (plugh)
And too ignorant to answer direct questions . . . (Score:1)
Details like pap, chap, or whatever are beyond them. THe hardware will talk to you, but you're left to configure by trial & error.
Well... use the help system. (Score:1)
pnpprobe (8) - scan ISA bus for PnP sound cards
pvf tools (1) - utilities to convert various sound formats
sfxload (1) - load a SoundFont file on the AWE32 sound driver
sndconfig (8) - configure sound card for use with Linux kernel modules
sox (1) - SOund eXchange : universal sound sample translator
cdrom-record (1) - a small utility to record sounds from your soundcard to a
file.
play-sample (1) - a small utility to play raw files and wave files on your
soundcard.
record (1) - a small utility to record sounds from your soundcard to a
file.
Text::Soundex (3) - Implementation of the Soundex Algorithm as Described by K
nuth
(END)
a Linux Box was delivered this week to (Score:1)
Hello, Typo Flamer. I'm Conan the Grammarian -- pleased to meet you.
*grin*
--
W.A.S.T.E.
xyzzy (Score:1)
--
W.A.S.T.E.
O'Reilly comes through again... (Score:1)
Good luck!
-----
easy as pi (Score:1)
--
The problem is that people say there is a problem (Score:1)
Now, there's nothing -wrong- with wanting to learn as much as you can about something. It's a very good idea, and a very worthwhile approach. However, it's important to do selectively, rather than globally.
However, when it comes to Linux, where 90% of it's image to those -outside- of the Linux community has been one of FUD, it's very very important to trust yourself, rather than what you read.
I, for one, would be -more- than happy to step ANY newbie through the installation of Linux, but in the end, however much help I offer, and however much of that help they accept, it's THEIR computer and THEIR installation, not mine. I can give the commands to type and the buttons to push, but unless THEY understand what's happening and at least some of why, they would be playing the part of the trained puppy. I'm sorry, but I am going to do my level best to show any newbie I ever help that it is THEIR system, not mine. The age-old fear of "hitting the wrong key and breaking it", IMHO, comes from a deep, inner feeling that it's not really their computer at all. There is a confidence that you can feel, when it's YOUR computer, that you can NEVER really feel when using anyone elses, IMHO.
I don't get it... (Score:1)
Did you try dpkg --help? The first line of the output describes how to install a package:
dpkg -i|--install
Daniel
PS - in Debian, you usually use dselect to install packages, and dselect's interface _is_ a pain. I find it to be useful but it's almost impossible to learn. Hopefully apt will be better, although I tried it from CVS and was very worried at what I saw..
No Subject Given (Score:1)
Thus missing the fact that he typo'ed the value of pi (3.14159).
hehe,I agree with the subastance tho. The only killer in RH5.1 was partitioning the HD. Everything else my Mom could have handled. (she discovered the right mouse button on her own a few weeks back. We're all proud of her...
Wow. (Score:1)
I'm glad Slashdot is here to keep us on the cutting edge of today's news.
Don't be redundant redundant (Score:1)
would - Future imperfect tense
was - past tense
You sentence should read: I thought that a PROFESSIONAL journalist, would grammar check their stories before posting them, I guess I was wrong.
Not to mention the over use of commas.
It would seem that everyone makes mistakes. Myself included. Lighten up. Grammer and spelling flames are not very impressive.
Don't be redundant redundant (Score:1)
would - Future imperfect tense
was - past tense
You sentence should read: I thought that a PROFESSIONAL journalist, would grammar check their stories before posting them, I guess I was wrong.
Not to mention the over use of commas.
It would seem that everyone makes mistakes. Myself included. Lighten up. Grammer and spelling flames are not very impressive.
Not your space (Score:1)
You Give Geeks A Bad Name (Score:1)
The thing needed to install Linux is a will to Learn, and spend Time and Effort to learn. Without that, you won't be anything more than mediocre at anything you attempt in life.
The people saying that Katz is in the wrong place are right. He seems to be a geek of journalistics and humaniora, not computer science.
My guess is that what he is really doing here is practicing his journalistic skills and getting his name known. This could get him a good job if he's lucky, meaning he'd get paid better.
Most geeks do have good hygiene. Most geeks do have some degree of social skills. Your flame shows a lack of them though.
its not Xwindows!@ :) (Score:1)
--
"ISP doesn't handle Linux"? (Score:1)
"ISP doesn't handle Linux"? (Score:1)
:-)
netcom? (Score:1)
I don't get it... (Score:1)
To me, the way you're approaching Linux (months of preparatory reading, preinstalled system, reliance on tech support from everyone on
You're partly wrong. Installing is not a huge deal. Doing it on a Mac is trivial, at least with MkLinux, if you use SilverLining to do the partitioning. RedHat is also straightforward unless you have really weird stuff in your system. And to some degree, you're right. This is not a Mac, it's not W95, it's not Office and it'll take a fair investment of time before you can do anything productive (with the exception of net stuff, which should look pretty familiar).
I'll be really appalled if after all this, you start writing articles about how easy it is to do all the things that you're refusing even to attempt...
I don't get it... (Score:1)
I'm not sure I get your point, either. What I was saying is this - Katz is arguing that:
Personally, I think it's neither. But it certainly can't be both.
"ISP doesn't handle Linux"? (Score:1)
I installed linux at a friend's house and got ppp set up. When I dialed in to his ISP on minicom, type the user name and password, you get a whole lot of garbage characters under the login. So, I thought, success!, until pppd wouldn't start.
For some reason, I decided to boot into Windows NT on his machine, and dialed in to his ISP using hyperterminal - well, it brought up a full color bbs screen (presumably the color escape characters were the garbage I was seeing in minicom) with no option for starting ppp.
He had some manuals for his ISP which he'd printed out in something like 1990 which said to type username@slip at the login: prompt. We then tried using username@ppp, and it worked.
Apparently this is somewhat common, as he didn't need to open a terminal window or use a dial-up networking script in Windows NT.
"ISP doesn't handle Linux"? (Score:1)
website! (Score:1)
here is the address of the page:
http://www.netcom.com/bin/webtech/NETCOM_Accoun
a Linux Box was delivered this week to (Score:1)
Katz : Slashdot == Pournelle : Byte (Score:1)
Installing Linux isn't this hard... (Score:1)
Yes, it's confusing, with all the talk of partitions and monitor refresh rates and whatnot, but any recent distribution is just as easy to install as Windows (anyone ever install Win95 from scratch on a blank hard drive?), which seems to be the "Holy Grail" of ease-of-install that everyone is always comparing Linux to.
I think one of two things is going on here: either you're overanalyzing this and intimidating yourself, making it harder than it has to be, or you're just not as computer-savvy as you like to pretend.
Installing Linux isn't hard; learning how to use it is the tough part.
Yup. (Score:1)
Give the average man on the street a *bare* hard drive and a Windows CD-ROM and watch him fall to his knees...
After spending some time in #linuxhelp, I've determined that (I think) the most daunting part of Linux installation for a new user is the drive partitioning. And that's not a Linux thing, that's a computer thing.
Computer books (Score:1)
Mac users. (Score:1)
never understood the whole linux problem. (Score:1)
I hung out on efnet #linux for a while absorbing and noticing that Samba caused all sorts of problems. Most of the time the response from the community was, "RTFM" or "read the docs" or something of the like.
Now, I only have one Linux book, the one that came w/my original Slackware 3.2 Slackware distrib. To honestly tell you the truth, I never opened it to learn about Linux. -- back to my Samba thing
Here is my problem w/your post sir. You said that you have all these books, and blah blah blah. Thing is that you were looking all in the wrong places. All you need are the HOWTO's, and the man pages.
Maybe I am the one that is wrong
Can't log in (Score:1)
I complained, and after a week or so, the situation suddenly went away.
Go figure...
(There is a small chance this could have been related to the modem speed difference between the boxes, but I doubt it.)
This is unfortunate (Score:1)
There are three ways you can look at this:
1) For the average person, installing linux is simply not possible - even with the purchase of assorted books and hundreds of linux geeks acting as free consultants.
2) Katz is a quitter who wasn't really that serious about installing linux on his machine.
3) Both of the above.
No matter how you slice it, this is kind of depressing. On the bright side (as others have pointed out) if Katz had to install Windows from scratch he might have had the same problems. Oh, the joys of conjecture...
Personally, I don't think Linux is that hard to install. I managed to do it (with advice from a die-hard user) in a couple of hours. I have had no formal computer training of any sort. Ironically enough, I _did_ go to journalism school.
Once again I have to question Katz's role here. I don't think the average person would fail to install linux over a 2 month period given the resources that Katz has had. I think he is doing the linux community a grave disservice by making the installation process look a lot harder than it really is.
Anyone who really _wants_ to install linux and is willing to invest the time to learn how to do it isn't going to have a problem. It is not easy, but it is not that hard, either. You just need a lot of patience.
All IMO of course. Caveats - I am not a linux expert, nor am I a particularly good journalist... and I really don't know how hard installation would be for the non-geek in its natural habitat. Take with grain of salt.
L. Ron
Don't Get Discouraged (Score:1)
You can use Linux with Netcom (Score:1)
jsmith becomes us,ppp,jsmith
As part of the recent buyouts of Netcom (ICG) they were upgrading a lot of servers, with fancy switches/routers to handle ISDN and analog modem on the same phone number. This caused lots of problems because it was looking for PAP authentication. Just follow the howtos (also some pointers in the linux-ppp mailing list) and don't forget the "us,ppp," as part of the username.
Anyone wanting a little bit more info send email to mremski@ix.netcom.com or mremski@aspi.net.
Ugh this is no way to go about things (Score:1)
Why do you make it sound that installing Linux is the most complicated thing ever invented? For God's sake I installed RedHat 4.2 for a friend of mine based on the README alone. Mind you, I'd previously installed FreeBSD on my own computer, so I wasn't a newbie at it. Buy a cheap computer, get a Linux CD, install it. It's NOT that hard.
Honestly, you're just psyching yourself out. *sigh*
This Belongshere (Score:1)
I like to read how people become confused and muddled. Why people think Linux is traumatic. I think one thing Katz has exposed is how much garbage is out their for Linux books. I never have a Linux specific book other than a manual from a comercial distribution and by the time I had that it was too late anyway. Sometimes it seems strange that it might be difficult to install linux. I had a laptop with Win95 from work that crashed, I downloaded the install disks on my housemates macintosh, made the floppies booted my AST laptop and let it install over night via ftp, in the morning I had a functioning laptop.
Katz is also interesting in that he is a computing freedom evangalist, who has only gotten to the idea of freedom and not yet experienced it. I hope he can get through his confused, but common, methods of freeing himself from other companies ideas of how he should use information.
"and trust me, it can"? (Score:1)
Please God, don't let Linux go mainstream (Score:1)
The reason Linux (and other free software) is appealing is that it provides an opportunity to achieve Computing Freedom(tm). This means being the master of your tools rather than allowing them to control you. This means having full, autonomous control of your computing world.
But it's fundamentally impossible to have it both ways. If you're going to be the master of your tools, you must achieve a difficult, deep and informed understanding of how those tools operate. If you want "easy to use" you are essentially saying you refuse to understand your tools in any detail, you just want to get some other, non-computer-related work done.
But by this refusal to accept responsibility for your own understanding of your own computer, you have essentially subordinated your ability to compute--your Computing Freedom(tm)--to the quality of user interface design provided by some nameless programmer you'll never meet. Your objective at this point is to find the programmers who produce the simplest user interfaces. That ain't Linux.
Perhaps the ultimate illustration of this point goes as follows. What is the fundamental difference between Linux and Windows? With Linux, you get source code. What is the point of having source code if you can't even read it, let alone modify it to suit your preference? None whatever. So what is the fundamental advantage of Linux over Windows or MacOS, for a non-programmer? There isn't any.
So let's focus on our core competency and stop wasting valuable effort trying to make Linux appealing to market segments who don't care about Linux's sustainable strengths. It's like offering jackhammers in designer colors. It makes no sense and it detracts from the focus on things that really matter, like getting the kernel to scale well to higher-end (16- to 64-way) SMP.
-Graham
Linux is not easy. (Score:1)
Installing -- just getting the OS on the system -- is fairly easy. Configuring -- making it work with your system -- is a nightmarish for mere mortals and non-IT types, especially if you don't know where to look for answers. I have examples, but I won't bore anyone (unduly) unless asked.
It seems that most people would rather shell out $x hundred (thousand?) for "repair" or replacement than figure out for themselves what's not working and how to fix it. It's more comfortable and less time-consuming, and for many people, time (and comfort) are more important than money.
Win95 lets them do that with a clear conscience. You can't learn how to fix it; the most MS will even let you do is click a few buttons and reinsert a CD now and then. And people seem to like it that way. (Remember, the grandaddy of Windows was MS-DOS. Back when there was competition, Macintosh was winning it -- by making the first computer for people who don't want to learn anything about computers.)
The masses don't ever want to have to think about their OS. Microsoft knows that -- you can't even think about their OS if you want to.
The sooner this notion becomes widely accepted, the sooner Linux will be a legitimate contender in the marketplace, IMO.
phil
Learn the console.....become 1 with it. It is 0 (Score:1)
(one to install on, the other to browse the web for documentation), then I guess you have to rely on the books. I'm sorry to say, the books are not nearly as good as the online documentation. Another avenue that worked for me was to simply let RH5.x do all the work. With RH 5.2 you boot the cd (John you can do that) follow the menus. Finally choose "workstation" not custom, and the install will do everything for you, including partitioning. John, it will work. Am I one of the lucky few newbies who can figure things out on his own? I am not that smart, otherwise I wouldn't be in law school. I would be in the world make big cash at age 24 playing with linux. Hey John, will I wrote this, 2.2.0pre9 compiled after I zcat patched against 2.2.0pre8. Another thing, learn the console.... learn.... the.. conssssssssoooooooole........Yeah, baby, I'm a geek, I'm a geek, I'm a geek.
aren't we all outsiders until we install it? (Score:1)
where it asks you whether you want Workstation, Server, or Custom. If you are daring choose custom. You can always start over. But this option will tell you all about your hardware. OR. Choose Workstation. BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...... Your harddrive will start humming baby. In the end, it will tell you what kind of mouse you have. Hit . Then, it will tell you what kind of video card you have. Hit . Go ahead and when it asks you if you want to probe or not. Probe. If it locks up, then start over. Next time, don't probe you idiot. Your hardware doesn't like getting probed. Hit enter a couple more times (when you see dialogs that ask you to), sometimes you have to hit tab before hitting enter. Don't worry, it only gets harder after you finish installing. Enter your root password. It reboots, your done. Now what? You want to dial your ISP. Read the PPP howto in
use. I just installed red hat on my laptop after erasing debian, reinstalling Win (to use my printer), and reinstalling linux. I would have installed debian (see the debian.org site for their really good howto on installation), but debian's lilo doesn't like dos partitions and ignores them. I know it can be done, but like all things debian, you have to read the man page and the HOWTOs and the docs. It's linux for the gods' sakes; one must learn to read first.
The above is me NatePuri (natedawg if ya love me) (Score:1)
"and trust me, it can"? (Score:1)
Such as?
I've gone from System 7 to MacOS 8 to MacOS 8.5 (including going from HFS to HFS+) and I've never had a problem with any of the Macs I've ever owned.
Most of my problems have either come from out of date third-party shareware add-ons, or beta software that still had a few kinks to be worked out. (Well, then there's Netscape Navigator...)
Do I pay more in the first place? Maybe (though I bought my current machine as refurbished) but I think I've more than made up for it in productivity. The most downtime I've had was making the backup, reformatting in HFS+ and restoring.
I'd like to know the kinds of problems that the typical Mac owner has to face, cuz I haven't seen them.
Jay (=
Probably extra tough for Mac users.... (Score:1)
Most people using Linux come from a PC background, where Plug&Pray, ISA, IRQs and windoze have made life miserable for quite a while. The longer you used and added to your PC, the more likely it was that you would be forced to learn some of this stuff (at least that was the case for me.) I'm not a Mac user, but my impression is that Apple did a good job of hiding those kind of details on their machines. My point is that more PC users know about hardware than Mac users (which could be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how you look at it,) which Mr. Katz is.
Although it may be hard to accept, most people expect their computer to behave like an appliance- all they have to do is plug it in and start computing. Until this type of Linux machine is easily available with the apps people want, it will remain an OS for propeller heads.
Now before some of you get out the flame thrower, let me say that I use Linux and I love it. One of my machines at home is an old 486 that I turned into an ipmasq gateway for my other PCs. If I could use Linux full time, I would. But like the man said, it takes a lot of time learn what you need to know to be able to install Linux, the apps you want and configure your GUI. It took me a whole day to get Window Maker working on my dual boot machine. Now I'm not saying that if I can't do it quick, nobody can, but I am fairly knowledgeable about PC hardware, Windows, and Linux. But damnit, every time I set out to do something new on Linux it takes me a lot of time. Unfortunately, everyone doesn't have this kind of time on their hands.
The common reply is 'Read the FAQ/How-To!' Don't get me wrong- these documents are a critical part of community, but often the document is along the lines of 'this is how I did it, YMMV'. This is OK for someone that knows what's going on, but it's not sufficient for the newbie.
The important thing is that the time is almost here when the average home user really will have viable options for what OS they use on their PC, but at the moment, Linux is an OS for the PC and Unix literate. If you aren't when you start, you will be when you get there.
Thank you! (Score:1)
Your comment was the only one that made sence, without putting anyone down...
And it was phunny!
re: a Linux Box was delivered this week to (Score:1)
I think it's great, too much editing can make an article impractical, even if more readable.
I work for An ISP (Score:1)
I have emailed the Owner of my ISP for permission to start providing support for Linux, but I have not received a response yet. We shall see.
!Jason Bell!
Why ? (Score:1)
He apparently finds the idea of assembling and installing a system to be daunting, though. I can understand that, despite the fact that I enjoy doing it. I know someone who's an automobile hobbyist, who thoroughly enjoyed building a kit car, something I'd never consider doing - for me, a car is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.
So, yeah, maybe Jon's article is inappropriate for a hobbyist site. I don't really think
Sigh. This is flamebait, I know. Have at it...
Signal to noise ... (Score:1)
Well, at least Jon is more coherent and interesting to read than most of people who respond to him. Faint praise, I suppose, but there you go.
And what have we learned? (Score:1)
agendas (Score:1)
I've been installing operating systems since the days of IBM DOS (that's mainframe DOS) and Apple II. After spending a late night this week getting a friend's Win95 box working again, I'd have to say that ultimately there is no difference between installing RedHat 5.2 and Win95. If the hardware is supported by the OS, the installation goes smoothly. If the hardware is not supported, it does not.
There is the FUD factor to overcome. Once a person *believes* that something is going to be difficult, it usually is. Although experienced in OS installation, I believed Linux was going to be difficult. It was, until I did it. Then it was so simple, I wondered if I had skipped some steps.
The rewards of a dependable and quick OS have led me to convert my work and home computers to Linux. To anyone who would do an install: make sure you have supported hardware and "just do it".
RedHat install (Score:1)
Computer that was being used as a seat in server room (K6-233,32MB, 4.3GB, 3Com905b, S3VirgeDX)
RedHat 5.2 CD-ROM
Step 1: Read instructions on creating a boot disk for Linux, which were, verbatim:
1. Go to an MSDOS prompt C:\>
2. Type the following: D:\dosutils\rawrite
Enter disk image source file name: D:\images\boot.img
Enter target diskette drive: a:
Please insert a formatted diskette into drive A: - and press -ENTER-:
3. Reboot with the floppy in Drive A: to install Linux.
Followed them.
(I know how to set up PCs, never used Linux farther than staring at Xeyes on my friends box)
Step 2: Read information that appeared on my screen. Followed simple on screen instructions. Installed everything because I didn't know any better.
Step 4: After it was done, I rebooted and up popped a login promt, typed in "root" then my password hit enter. Linux prompt.
Step 4: Called friend, "Ummm, how do I get into Xwindows?"
Step 4: Typed in startx.
Step 5: Have fully working Linux box with internet connectivity already in MS Windows like environment.
Now I just play with it, whats the deal? It took me 45 minutes, 75% of the time was spent re-booting and waiting for the files to be copied off of the CD-ROM. My advantages over Katz:
knowledge of terms like "reboot" and "diskette".
Yes, it was easier for me to get on-line because I have an ethernet connection in my office, but going on-line isn't necessary to learn about it, or to play with it. The next day I installed AfterStep and GNOME with some help at #linuxhelp on IRC (accessable by any box, like my Windows NT one). I also have the capability of reading the FAQs about the things I want to learn about, and have since learned the man and howto commands.
It's so easy. Yes, I am lost, and fear the bash. But I bought one book yesterday (Linux in a nutshell, just like Jon) and have started to learn all of the commands. I think anyone can do this f they aren't afraid to mess up their computer, temporarily. So what if you have to reformat, it's not like you never have to reformat NT or 95 systems after installing it.Just don't be afraid, if your modem doesn't work, go on IRC and ask, immediate gratification. No waiting on hold for tech-support.
Anyway, that was my first endeaver into Linux, it shouldn't be that hard for anyone.
Dinyar Mistry
Slashdotters acting like adolescent morons. (Score:1)
Linux install miscellanea (Score:1)
$0.01. My linux box was both cheap and easy: a new internal HD for my Power Mac 7200. It flawlessly dual-boots MacOS and MkLinux. Let me tell ya, having a working OS from which to kick off the Linux install beats the tar
$0.02. I have installed various flavors of Unix about 6 times on 3 different architectures. I have installed Windows NT dozens of times on 4 different flavors of Intel. No way is Windows NT more difficult to install than Unix. Maybe equally so, if your Unix install set and instructions are really good. MkLinux was worse than NT when it came to partitioning the disk, but good once the automated part started. NetBSD 1.2 was bloody awful. I've never done Windows 95.
No Wonder Support (Score:1)
If you have a question about MacOS or Win9x, you send in an email & a volunteer gets back to you within 24 hours. I've used them a couple of times & they are fast, efficient, and courteous. Best of all, they solved my problem every time.
Speaking as someone who is going to be doing his first RH install in 2 weeks, your idea of a volunteer Linux support site sounds like an excellent idea, and seems like it would be in keeping with the "community".
=moJ
- - - - - -
Member in Good Standing,
Don't give up your day job... (Score:1)
Having read your latest piece, I am compelled to write. I have enjoyed your writing in the past, and thought, in general, that bunch of the morons on here were simply giving you a hard time. Now I am not so sure.
You have managed to describe your trials and tribulations in great detail, and I am sure a lot of the newbies on here can relate. But your are dragging this along at a snail's pace. Since I also read your last piece, I would think your approach to this one would have been, "confessions of a newbie" or "my first day on the job with the force".
Instead we are still in the "trying to install blah, blah" period leading up to "now I must break down buy it preinstalled". And upon this new and great machine you allude to purchasing, for a modest $600 buckaroos, (good for you!) "I fantasized of foisting my ramblings upon the net on my spiffy little linux box". My, how wonderful.
Linux evolves very quickly, and I fear that at this rate, the next major kernel release will be well into double digits, before you are able to get a linux box up on your own. Or in other words, please don't give up your day job...
You had the answer in your own column. Buy it, try it. Okay, then you brake it. So? Re-install and try it again. (Repeat many times) This would have been one of the main advantages had you taken the trouble and learned how to install it. (its NOT that tough anymore, I mean c'mon!) It'll be a lot tougher to figure out how to use it daily, even with it pre-installed. And some day you may want to try upgrading it or compling a kernel! (Insert a very sarcastic WOW here!)
LB
AO-HELL (Score:1)
I do not consider it an ISP
To me, an ISP is just a connection, not a content provider.
Cobratek
Linux - user friendly? (Score:1)
What about X-ISP? KPPP? RedHat's netcfg? All are easy to use and configure ppp clients (GUI)
"find / -name myfile -print"
Compare typing this in to say '95:
1.click Start
2.goto Find
3.goto Find Files
4.type in the name of the file you want to find
5.make sure it is looking on the right drive
6.set other options as necessary
6.click Go
Personally I prefer the command line, but if you really want that GUI extra stuff, tyr KDE. I use it as my full time desktop at work and at home. It is highly functional and professional.
Anyone who is coming from the world of windows should start with KDE and, once comfortable in linux, move on to gnome, afterstep, windowmaker(my personal favorite), or something else.
One last defense of the command line:
rename all files in a directory from name to name.old
GUI - click, rename, type new name, repeat
CLI - #for file in `ls`
>do
>mv $file $file.old
>done
That's all it takes. If you learn to shell program, the GUI tools like "find" and "file manager" becomes less and less important.
--
It's all YOUR fault people!! (Score:1)
Sheesh.
--
It's all YOUR fault people!! (Score:1)
Sheesh.
I think he leaves these mistakes in on purpose to seem more like an average guy. I bet it kills him to hit the Submit button knowing the mistakes are there.
--
--
Linux - user friendly? (Score:1)
They both have their pros and cons, but for me, the CLI is the fastest and more powerful of the two.
--
Crossing the Chasm (Score:1)
Given that it's ancient (predates Linux even), having first been published in 1991, and that it really doesn't break much new ground, it basically makes an important point in an accessible way.
There is the sense that new technology or services or products proceed from initial acceptance to a broad market in a very smooth way. The old marketing paradigm is that it moves from "innovators" to "early adopters" to the "middle market" to "late adopters." What Moore's book clarifies is the "chasm" between the early adopters and the middle market. The early adopters can tolerate less than perfect performance because they don't mind tinkering with parts and getting new features that they want. The middle market wants a "whole product" that comes prepackaged and with sufficient technical support and training to make use of the features without a great deal of digging into the insides.
But Linux is basically just entering the early adopter phase. Along comes Jon Katz, a staunch member clearly identifying himself as part of the middle market. All of the
Well, Jon Katz isn't going to be an early adopter type like some feel he should be. He is an early look-see-er from the middle market -- *across* the chasm from where we are now. There are some important lessons here for those of you who believe, as I do, that Linux and *BSD ought to cross that chasm at some point.
In the meantime, for those who can't tolerate the thought that Jon Katz' ongoing tales don't deserve a featured slot on
--------
You Give Geeks A Bad Name (Score:1)
Well this may come as a shock to some people, but there are hordes of people out there who do not grok tech stuff easily which is why a crap OS like Windows 95 does well due to it's superficial usability and the fact that you don't have to know the brand name of your hard drive controller to install it.
Also, there are people out there for whom technology is not an all-consuming passion and don't want to invest large amounts of time trying to figure things out. I think Unix is fantastic and I'm reasonably technically adept, but the idea of insalling Linux makes me cold. I'll let the tech guy with poor hygiene and social skills take care of that for now, while I go and get a shower before my date tonight.
"Who is this Katz guy? Turn him off!"
The only culture you've ever seen is growing in your fridge. I've followed Katz for years and you should appreciate the fact that he doesn't have to post stuff here when he could be getting paid (and appreciated) elsewhere. No-one is foisting this stuff on you. Grow up.
Patience (Score:1)
does demand a certain amount of effort and
patience before it will reveal its powers to you.
Like any quest for knowledge and power, it is
fraught with obstacles and frustrations. However,
the adventurer is not alone. With time and effort,
you will begin to understand the ways. You will
master the powers at hand. There are many people
you will encounter on your journey. Some will be
helpful, some scornful, some will question your
ways. Overall, though, you will find this land
full of those that wish to share in the knowledge.
If you are true in your desire, you will find
the help you need. - Master Switch
Stop being so goddamn obnoxious! (Score:1)
I for one happen to be enjoying hearing JonKatz's tale. Believe it or not, there are actually intelligent, sentient, thoroughly competent beings out here reading slashdot who aren't currently running Linux! For those people these postings may actually be valuable and interesting, even if they aren't to you! If you don't find it interesting, why not just move along and read about the latest build or something more up your alley?
For those of us who are learning I can only let JonKatz know that we ARE reading, and appreciating the considerable amount of free time and energy he's putting into sharing (I keep hearing how Linux is all about sharing?) his experience.
Okay but his experience isn't always the norm... (Score:1)
I myself have installed Linux a half-dozen times, and I wouldn't say it was HARD to install, but those who contend it's easier than NT nead to stop passing the pipe. The main difference is that getting Linux INSTALLED is only 1% of the difficulty -- I've accomplished that several times. Getting it working *properly* with all the hardware, and getting X up and running have been the parts where everything seems to fall apart...
Okay but his experience isn't always the norm... (Score:1)
I just don't understand the blind doggedness of advocates -- can't we just deal with reality here? We're all technically competent people.
The reality is that NT is more likely to support a given piece of hardware than Linux, just the same as Win98 is more likely to support it than NT. It has nothing to do with superiority.
Linux is no less potent for having even more specific hardware needs than NT, but that DOES make it more likely to install in an unusable fashion on a PC that wasn't purchased with Linux hardware requirements in mind.
And I know how frustrating it can be -- I have to run 98 on my home system rather than NT because I play games and need the expanded hardware support 98 offers. 3d audio? Programmable joystick? NT speaks not these things!