SIIA complains schools don't buy enough software 186
John writes "CNN is reporting on study by a software trade group which seems to claim that schools aren't spending enough on software. This begs a few questions. One of them is, what sorts of software is useful for schools? (Other than Oregon Trail, of course!) " *sigh* How do you explain that money doesn't enumerate all value?
not better software, better faculty (Score:1)
In my school (public, redneck Idaho, 3000 ppl town) we had a guy who was semi competent. He had the knowledge to set up a few programming classes (these "classes" were actually nothing more than asking us what we wanted to learn and giving us books). But just this little bit put me way ahead of anyone else in college! I talk with other students who come from upper class private colleges who had less computer education than me! Schools just aren't taking the time to hire someone who knows what they're doing, THAT is the problem.
Re:not better software, better faculty (Score:1)
Re:It's a valid complaint (Score:1)
Better to teach skills that have as broad a base as possible. Makes the individual more flexible and of better benefit to society.
Re:High School Student's View (Score:1)
What good does *one* computer in a classroom do? The teacher can't have everyone huddle around the 15" monitor for demonstrations, nor can it be used hands on by more than 1 student at a time! in a class of about 25 students, the class period would not be long enough to rotate through everyone.
I worked as technician for about 4 school systems in the 94-95 school year, and I saw first hand that single computers in classrooms where not being used as part of any curriculum. At most a computer savvy teacher could check her email or print some banners.
Instead of squandering resources like this they should take the single computers out of every classroom and turn them into another computer lab,
or they should put enough computers in the classroom so that all the students can use them without more than 1 rotation.
I recently took a university CS class where there was a fully loaded, inernet-attached PC on everyone's desk (the desks were more like tables). It was absolutely great, I could SSH to my server at home and take notes on my own machine, and occasionally use write or talk when things became dull
Programming does not equal computer knowledge (Score:1)
When I call for tech support on our custom program I usually have to educate the programmer I am talking to about the nuances of the hardware, the network, and what is actually happening with all his great code on my flashy GUI screen.
I also like to race my car. I don't know a lot of mechanics who can compete with me. However, I do know several drivers who have picked up mechanics skills.
I'm not forming my argument correctly here but the gist is that you can approach the ultimate goal of learning about your computer from several directions. You can be a programmer who learns about the hardware and then the applications. A word processor who starts to move beyond their program and onto the OS, networks, etc.
Personally, I had a bunch of really cool games that wouldn't operate on my old 8088 without a lot of playing with my config and autoexec files.
Computer industry fundamentally corrupt. (Score:1)
This has become so bad that the industry has convinced itself that commercial software is destiny. They are addicted to the incredible profits being made in software. On top of that they are using part of these profits to convince people they need to buy software to be "educated". That is INSANE. Software does not in and of itself teach you ANYTHING. Software is a means to an end, and if the means is made more important, then the end will never be reached.
People need to re-learn how to solve problems with computers, not just spend money for playing with new toys. If we "teach" kids how to use a word processor instead of how to write a story, or how to write poetry, we are losing a significant set of skills that all the computer software in the world will never replace.
Stop the insanity!
I know, I know, I'm preachin' to the choir.
ART not computers is needed..... (Score:1)
Let me explain first. I am a die hard techie. I have a degree in mech. engineering and in applied math. I program,use linux, have worked in very high tech environments, run my own internal lan, hell I might as well have a computer hard wired in as a part of my central nervous system I use them so much... though maybe not to the extend of some slashdotters... Also, I dont have an artistic bone in my body ( at least not of the painting, drawing type ).
Here's the thing, I've worked in medical research environments and have got very used to reading and criticing peer review research. The thing is all of the education research when it comes to making smarted, more creative, intelligent students points to the fact that ART not computers has a greater benefit. And guess what
Schools dont need to and should not spend millions of dollars on computers, since for the most part its a rout learning benefit at most and really computer companies are the ones to benefit. Spend more money on ART and music and develop better, more creative and intelligent students, not just more drone who can use excel. Anyone can learn to do a specific task, but helping someone be creative and learning to think....
And before this causes huge flamage, yes I think the use of comuters is benificial as well but so many schools and school boards, educators etc are ignoring hard research in favour of some dangling carrot because they've been sold a bill of goods by tech. companies about the benefits...
anyways...my 2 cents
Is CS in HS all that important? (Score:1)
Comments Welcome!
bp
Schools Don't Have Enough Text Books. (Score:1)
CCalculus (Score:1)
For example, Linux has GNUPlot, Octave, Yorick, MuPad and probably a thousand more covering everything from algebra to numerical methods to statistics to finite element analysis, etc. etc.
The amazing thing is that this software is either open source, freely distributable, or low priced.
True, actual tutoring programs are few, but I've always found that the easiest way to learn is work the problems.
For example, in algebra use GNUPlot to see how changing a constant in a quadratic affects the graph. Plot a few sin and cos functions to learn periodicity... Use Octave to solve a few sim. lin equations.
As for non-mathematical titles, there are many. There are at least 50 physics demonstrations, 5 astronomy programs, 10 music, 20 chemistry apps from searching Linux Software Map and Freshmeat.
For non-Linux apps there are hundreds freely available for Macintosh just searching info-mac and Yahoo.
Kwan
Get rid of FCC *TAX*! (Score:1)
Drill and Kill and the "New School" (Score:2)
Everyone is dancing around an issue here... How are the computers used in the classroom?
There is the "old school" approach, if you will, is something we call "Drill and Kill". These are the programs like Millie's Math House, or zillions of other pieces of software out there that simply reinforce ideas and processes repeatedly. You have to enter 1 + 1 = 2 over and over again until you're sick of it. If you went to school when computers were new, this is the type of software you used. (A few
"Drill and Kill" software is what the SIIA is getting at I suppose. Yes, it takes a zillion Drill and Kill programs to keep a classroom happy. They're boring as can be, and not really that much better than a simple workbook or a few handouts from a teacher.
Then there is the "new school" approach.
Shift away from the computer as a drill and kill tool, and make it a tool for creativity. Use the computer to allow the kids to be creative in ways they never have before... being able to integrate sounds and graphics and movies into a book report, for example.
What does this mean? Well, in reality a copy of Microsoft Office is really all you need to equip a machine in a computer lab... and maybe a few other small programs, like a typing tutor. (However, most (all?) of our typing classes are acutally just done in Word.)
Don't like Microsoft? There's many other possibilities out there, too. AppleWorks (ClairsWorks), HyperStudio, KidPics... the list is huge. These programs are quite different than their expensive one-purpose Drill and Kill counterparts, and allow the kids to be much more creative, and learn in ways they've never learned before.
It's neat to see a kid who never does well in school on "conventional" assignments get all excited and really get into a project on a computer.
Wrapping this back into the topic: Why aren't some schools spending much on software? They don't need to. They have the tools they need already.
- AC
Absolutely right.This has got to be an Onion story (Score:4)
Geez...what's next.."NRA says : Americans not buying enough guns"
or...
"McDonald's research finds : people not getting enough Filet-O-Fishes"
This whole thing sounds like an Onion story.
Re:This is why open source rules (Score:1)
ehm... seriously though, it is a very valid point, but in a couple of years or so there will be free software available that is suitable for use by computer illiterate I guess..
Re:Is CS in HS all that important? (Score:1)
I'm 20, and consider myself kind of lucky in some ways that I wasn't born 5 years later. I started getting exposed to computers at age 6 or so on an Apple ][. In those days you had to learn how to do things on your own. Had I started out on a PC with Windows, I don't think I'd be where I am today. Nowadays there are layers and layers of abstraction and people don't interact with the computer the same way they used to.
Re:Forget computers, just teach (Score:1)
I don't think teaching teachers how to program will work. Teachers for the mostpart are just ordinary people -- the same kind of people who have 12:00 flashing on their VCR's. My dad is a teacher, and I constantly have to listen to his stories about the pathetic attempts the administration has made at incorporating computer science into the curriculum at his school (and other schools). It's quite sad, really.
It's a valid complaint (Score:4)
It's like complaining that no one does car mechanics but they all do driving lessons.
A perfect analogy. It's a device that most people will use, and it's a complicated device that we need to teach some people the inner workings. That's why most schools in my state (NYS) do offer both car mechanics and driving lessons. Granted most schools don't have the facilities for car mechanics, but they make collective arrangements so that someone with interest can learn.
With computers, most schools seem to have washed their hands of the whole programming aspect. They don't want to deal with teaching kids how to control the computers, just use them. Anyone who wants to learn to program has to teach themselves or wait until college in most parts of the state.
Another important thing about programming courses needs a little background. In case you haven't figured it out (don't worry, most people I've talked to haven't), the reason high schools make such a big deal about Math class has nothing to do with learning math. They know full well that few people require Euclid or Triginometry in the real world. It's there to teach you analytic problem solving, which is an important skill for everyone.
Programming teaches you algorithmic problem solving, which is another important skill for everyone. I think that at least Programming 101 should be a requirement, not a discarded option.
Your imagination losing ground (Score:1)
computers without needing or having to program
them? The answers no and yes.
It's like complaining that no one does car mechanics but they all do driving lessons.
Re:It's a valid complaint (Score:1)
Programming teaches you, classically, programming and doesn't really delve into the problem solving skills required.
If you want to teach problem solving techniques, there should be a problem solving 101. B)
Re:Your imagination losing ground (Score:1)
Re:money? (Score:1)
Re:Oregon trail.... (Score:2)
----
If you want to be nit-picking (Score:2)
"To beg the question" is to assume that the conclusion of the argument is true (as one of the premisses of the argument).
Arguments aren't true or false; they're valid or invalid, sound or unsound.
(I just knew my ABD in philosophy would come in handy one day!)
--
Sounds like a rally cry for a new project (Score:1)
I know exactly what they are talking about. But one think that we must keep in mind is that they out fit a few computer labs and then everyone shares. I don't think its very reasonable to break it down in to dollars per student.
On the flip side maybe the free software movement needs to address the issue of educational software. I am currently learning C++ and VB once I complete this I plan to start on something like this. I belive that the free software movement has a lot to offer everyone, including students and educators.
Any ideas anyone?
In a way, they're right. (Score:1)
I actually went to a high school where computer classes were ranked on par with home economics and phys ed. At least, that was what you had to choose from when you scheduled. There were no required computer courses--and my high school was considered progressive for the state!
I don't believe that all the fault lies with the for-profit software industry--if school systems would set some decent priorities, then spending on technology education would almost certainly have to increase (even considering free software).
Schools & Software (Score:1)
The first piece of software I saw was the FoolProof security dealio in the windows lab. It was shareware and expired in the middle of class. The next day, a new shareware copy was up.
(fwiw, you should never underestimate the ingeuity of a complete fool, as I estimate that it would take anyone worth their salt 30 seconds to disable. Note the word "estimate", I'm not making any accusations again.)
The other one was a quicktime panorama generator in the mac lab. The students were directed to disable the network connection before running it. When I tried executing the program with the network still on, it complained that someone else with the same license key was using it.
So, unregistered shareware and software without a proper site license. I'm certainly not implying anything, you can make the decisions on your own.
Sorry for the pissy nature of this message, but with all of the incidents of school totalitarian control lately, I wouldn't want to get myself expelled or sued for libel.
Re:Oregon trail.... (Score:1)
Depends on which life you are wondering about. Rabbits breed like rabbits. If everyone going west had lived on bothing but rabbits (hunting every day), it is unlikely they could have caused problems with rabbit population. Shooting a 1000 lb bison (buffalo) and only being able to carry 100 lbs is realistic, though I would have gone back for the rest. In any case the Bison, antalope, and so on didn't fare so well, and their numbers have not yet recovered, but they are close.
Re:Feed Their Minds (Score:1)
Then explain why it is better than Windows. Now the average teacher/administrator knows less about computers than my iguana.
Sounds like Monty Python to me! (Score:1)
...and they figured this out how?
Jón
Me wonders too. (Score -1 *doh* :) (Score:1)
Some people just dont get it. I never liked hardcoded brains.
Re:It's a valid complaint (Score:2)
---
Re:A Taxpayer's View (Score:1)
I don't know where your from but teachers here make 30 grand to start.
Only the teachers trying to start out doing part time work get lower. That's
pretty good.
If my memory is correct, the local schools here start around $20,000 to $30,000 and max out at $50,000 to $70,000 (and this is for the teachers who have been around forever and have PhDs--our schools have set pay scales according to college degrees). So a prospective CS teacher will have to face the fact that he/she will never make more money per year as a teacher than in his/her *first year* elsewhere. And we are a fairly well-off district which is attractive to live in. (which may be why we do actually have a CS teacher, although AFAIK she was originally in math but she handles the CS pretty well) Other school systems are almost certainly less fortunate (just read the other comments here)
What school has classes 60 to 70 hrs a week?
You think teachers only work while the school is open?
They also get pay raises on the basis of their education. Regardless of
what they learn, the more degrees they have, the higher they are paid.
That is pretty silly, but IIRC teachers here can improve their standing by taking additional courses.
BTW Teachers are union.
--GASP--SHUDDER--horrible! horrible! Heaven forfend that unions should be allowed in our glorious country!
Does any other job have something as idiotic tenure??
*blink* I wasn't aware high schools offered tenure.
Daniel
Nitpick. That should be Micros~1 :) (Score:2)
not,
7 + ~1.
Re:A Taxpayer's View (Score:1)
Does any other job have something as idiotic tenure?? Wow what a great concept, no matter what I do I can't get fired! Cool! That is where all of the money is going! It's going to teachers who have tenure! Don't pity teachers it's their union that keeps this crap going.
Don't give me that poor teacher crap!
I've heard of it... (Score:1)
Who cares? (Score:1)
Hmm, tough choice.
What's so bad about an 8086? (Score:1)
Re:Your imagination losing ground (Score:1)
Valid point, but teaching Word or Excel only in junior high school is a complete waste of time. These kids will start working in about 10 years. Do you think that Word and Excel skills will really be relevant then?
Re:Your imagination losing ground (Score:1)
But the best way to learn about computers is to program them. Even if it is within a constrained environment like LOGO or maybe SmallTalk.
I also think the schools should teach Web/Internet stuff, since the Internet will be around 10 years from now. I'm not so sure about MS.
An ideal High School level computer course would be to let kids loose in a room with some older computer parts (you know 486s and p90s) and few Linux CDs.
Then it's time to introduce seul-edu (again) (Score:5)
We have a mailing list, seul-edu, and a website, http://www.seul.org/edu/ [seul.org] that are dedicated to fostering educational applications for Linux. We have a number of programs both pedagogical and administrative and documents (HOWTOs, on-line texts) under development which I think you might find interesting. We can always use help and feedback. Please take a look at what we're doing and then join us!
Doug Loss
Schools NOT$$ Software big surprise (Score:1)
Hmmm, I wonder why there is no money left for software??
Do the math.
Re:Forget computers, just teach (Score:1)
Re:Your imagination losing ground (Score:1)
>and how to broadcast TV shows to operate a VCR?
Not essential, but it helps. It will help you do stuff like, not store your tapes in a strong electromagnetic field, and properly tune the thing when you buy it (particularly important if you have one or more cable/sattelite/etc sources you wish to videotape).
Not exactly rocket science, but useful.
money? (Score:1)
Our schools can't afford basic necessities, much less software.
And chances are the only software that will run on the 286 and 386 in American classrooms is either free or out of print.
Oregon trail.... (Score:3)
There's an idea for a great linux port.
Re:Schools losing ground (Score:1)
Typing
Applications [wow.. they use Microsoft Works! $10 a pop?]
.... Thats it!
Next year theyre adding networking and programming [vb? i was like umm.. no] but theyre both 3 blocks a day for the entire year.. we have block scheduling, which is 4 blocks a day...
:P
Stan "Myconid" Brinkerhoff
Computers in schools (Score:1)
I agree that a computer is not magical and won't instantly lead to better education. The fact that school administrators throw money into buying a bunch of over-powered computers and over-priced software doesn't mean that students will learn any better.
And yet, the fact that this often happens does not mean that computers have no value at all in the classroom. Computers, when properly used, can actually provide many educational opportunities that you simply can't get without them.
Here's an example. I work for the NASA Quest team (URL above). One of the many services we offer is regular web chats for school children to talk to real NASA scientists. Often, kids get excited about science as a result of these chats and become a lot more interested in their schoolwork.
This is the kind of thing that simply cannot be done with more traditional means (slide projectors, VCRs, blackboards).
I'm simply suggesting that computers are neither magical solutions to education problems, nor are they useless and unnecessary in schools. Computers have their place. They can be very helpful in furthering a kid's education, especially when used alongside more traditional means of teaching.
And after Oregon Trail, at the end of class (Score:1)
Re:A Taxpayer's View (Score:2)
...never mind that many work about 60-70 hours a week during those 10 months, are paid relatively little, and are just as fed up with the "ever-expanding administration" as you are.
The teacher's unions *should* scream, as should taxpayers, to get more out of the money spent on schools. People are always so quick to blame the teachers - I've never understood that. I'm married to one, and let me tell you - there's no union conspiracy that *I* know of. In fact, most single teachers I know have trouble making ends meet.
Re:Forget computers, just teach (Score:1)
Right now and for many years past, our "schools" have not been schools, but "mental health" clinics under the domination of the Psychiatrists.
So, how about for the first several years, where students should be concentrating on the "three R's", teachers of those levels be paid entirely based on how well their students did in those areas in the previous year.
Last years students can't read, can't spell, don't know that 80 + 20 = 100? This year you teach for free (or maybe minimum wage) or you don't teach here at all.
Your third grade students last year all know their alphabet backwards, forwards and inside out (literally); know their phonetics; are able to use a dictionary by themselves (and like to use it, not like some students I had a decade ago who thought that being told to use a dictionary was punishment!); can read Kipling, Milne, etc as well as modern equivalents and enjoy doing so; are able to spell phonetically and have a good start on the special cases; are able to add and subtract numbers of any size "in their heads" and are able to (at least) multiply any pair of numbers both in the range 0 .. 20? Great! This year you get $100_000 for the year!
BTW, am not going to try to insert it into the above, but I neglected Grammar in the above exposition.
Of course, there are a few other things that should be taught at this level, like a little bit of Science, the ability to communicate ideas with pictures (no matter how poorly rendered, the point is the idea, not the rendering), some idea of music and musical structure (at least expose them to such things as "Peter and the Wolf", which in my experience most children love), and some idea of a discipline requiring formal body movement (doesn't really matter at this stage whether it is "Simon Says", ballet, Martial Arts, or Yoga. the idea is to build muscular coordination).
Concentrate on things like this in K-6, and you will have real students going into middle school. Then they can start learning how to really use computers as the tools they are.
What should not be done in the public schools is any attempt to indocrinate students with ethnic or cultural values. Nor, until the Psychiatrists are eliminated, should there be any attempt to teach morals or ethics. All recent attempts to do so have been harmful, as demonstrated at Littleton, and many other schools.
More to the point, a "computer on every desk" could be useful in the lower grades for such things as drilling (reading, spelling, arithmetic, etc). These machines need not be expensive (old i386sx boxen would do fine, with the right software). Maybe we should encourage High School students to write software for use by the lower grades and publish it to the Open Source community :=)
One other use would be for games that required the player to think .
Well, this got to be a little longer than I intended, and this is perhaps the wrong forum for it; but it needs to be said, and said often and loudly until these things happen; and on review I can't see anything that I could remove and still make my point.
== Buz :) Buz Cory [mailto] -- New York NY USA
write for FREE help [mailto] with:
Installing/Configuring Linux
Getting started with the Ada Programming Language.
Changing DOS/WinDog to Linux is like changing a WW-I Fokker for an F-14
Know Yourself! Know Life! [scientology.org]
Re:not "begs a few questions" (Score:1)
Schools are run to give bureacrats jobs, not teach (Score:3)
Giving these kids subsidized net access is BAD. First, many can't read or write, let alone construct a thought or express an idea. Second, they're being dumped onto the net without the faintest idea of how things work. Third, not only is every last tax-serf forced to pay for their education that isn't educating, we're forced to pay for their net access (boy, I wish *I* could afford a T1!), AND we are forced to pay for bullshit "censorware" like NetNanny or Cybersitter, AND pay a bunch of librarians to sit around and read students' email. (If a student received or sent encrypted mail, they'd likely be banned from the computers, possibly viewed as a bomb threat in the post-Littleton climate.) But the worst part is that when they're done, they've learned nothing despite all the money that was thrown at them.
In one school, so I was told, no students were allowed to use the net for fear they might access evil information. They bought the connections and computers, but were too cheap to buy forty feet of cable to hook it up. And of course, the idiots bought multi-kilobuck PowerMacs, as if you needed that kind of power for web browsing. In the meantime, just about every place is running Windows, and any student who actually exhibits a clue is labeled a "hacker" and sent to the principal's office. Their "security" consists of having a network password that is the name of the school's mascot, and disabling the "Run" command on the Start menu. ACTUALLY KNOWING HOW THINGS WORK IS DISCOURAGED. We covered all this in the Littleton discussions, remember? Heaven forbid if a student telnets into a legitimate shell account not controlled by the school, or knows how to program in something other than BASIC.
The end effect of subsidizing free net access in the government slave camps known as "schools" will be to do an end run around any freedoms people still enjoy. The politicians who cry for a chicken in every pot and a T1 in every home would just love to have everyone in America given free net access, because then they could claim the net is a "public resource" and therefore needs to be regulated.
We are already paying too damn much, in money and tears, to lock children up and brainwash them. But of course, the Enlightened will lead the crowd with cries for MO' MONEY, MO' MONEY, MO' MONEY. Get rid of the compulsory attendance laws and give people a true CHOICE, and watch a thousand flowers bloom. Continue, and enjoy the spectacle of a boot smashing into a human face forever. Brother, you asked for it!
Re:not "begs a few questions" (Score:1)
Webster's definition 2b for BEG is "to require as necessary or appropriate". This is the definition meant in the logical fallacy of "begging the question", as in to require the conclusion to be one of the premises, though usually worded differently of course. The confusion here is in the term "the question". The referent of "the question" in the logical fallacy is the premise that is merely asserted but not proven. When an argument begs A question, then it's meant that it requires that a question be asked of it (which could also be said of a fallacious argument).
It's common usage with technical accuracy to back it up. Some arguments can beg a response, an offense may beg a lawsuit (sometimes anthropomorphically phrased as begging FOR a lawsuit, which is derivative). It was common use before academia picked it up.
Re:And their point would be?? (Score:1)
That last part actually turned out to be beneficial to me
Re:Computers in the arts? (Score:1)
Re:A Taxpayer's View (Score:1)
*blink* I wasn't aware high schools offered tenure.
At the school I work at they sure do. The first three years a teacher is in the system, the contracts are probationary and a teacher can be non-renewed without cause. After three years, they are granted tenure, and they're removable, but it's harder and much documentation is required.
It doesn't matter anyhow, because the worst are usually well connected and they can survive about anything our largely impotent and spineless administrators care to try before giving up and hiding in their offices.
----------
mphall@cstone.nospam.net
Re:It's a valid complaint (Score:1)
The problem is not everyone's mind is wired to work that way. There are people who think logically and algorithmically and there are those that just don't. That's in no way a reflection on their intelegence, People jsut think differently.
These are the people who no matter what, won't understand computing. they are the ones who no matter how much effort gets put into it will not understand maths. They arn't stupid (They have, after all managed to survive without appearing stupid in other areas).
Disclaimer: I'm not a psych student. This is just based on observations while being a supportie. PS I appologise for going offtopic.
Re:There is a Point here (Score:1)
...on second thought, that's not true. Computers weren't my parents' thing, but they did enough by encouraging me to read and study what I was interested in.
Jay (=
(who may someday catch up with the teenagers of today...)
proprietary edusoftware considered oxy*MORONIC* (Score:1)
conclusion: it is good that schools do not spend much on software. the opportunity exists for them to cultivate the programming side of their students. to think like a programmer is to always be learning. isn't that the goal?
this all blends nicely into the free software movement, as other more loquacious people will surely point out.
What about "illegal" copies of software? (Score:1)
So how do alot of school compensate? Joe brings in that new Win98 CD that came with his computer to "upgrade" the computers. Pete brings in that copy of Office 97 that he got from his mom, that she "borrowed" from work. No one really sees it as illegal, expect the jokingly, "you didn't see me type in this key *wink* *wink*"
What about linux? HAHA The computer lab in my old HS was run by a 70 year old librarian, who kept shutting off the computers when they would dial-in to the ISP because "it was making funny noises and it was going to break it" Then someone told here that was the modem connecting. Someone has the patience enough to teach her linux?
Inferring too much. (Score:1)
Clearly, this being an industry trade group, we know what their agenda is, but when I read the CNN article, all I saw was someone describe the amount of money spent on software as "peanuts". I don't think that it is logical or fair to jump from that statement to the headline of this article.
And their point would be?? (Score:1)
Personally, I'm strongly in favor of hard copy, *especially* in primary school. These kids shouldn't be able to get out of writing their cursive 'A' 100 times just because they can punch a button on a keyboard.
When a person has mastered (or is fairly competent at) the basics, *then* expend the money on software to enhance more advanced learning. And as always, reinforce the learning skills.
Re:High School Student's View (Score:1)
Re:Is CS in HS all that important? (Score:1)
Forget computers, just teach (Score:5)
They could install all the latest whizzbang software at $500 a seat, or spend nothing and get the same end result. Guess what happens?
Computers don't teach kids. Teachers do. I am not convinced that a computer as a teaching tool is any more effective than a good teacher showing a videotape. The computer is a media tool, just like TV/VCR or an antiquated 'film-strip'.
I had a teacher once who did not know how to teach so he would sit us all down with a film strip, ignore us, and grade papers. We learned nothing. The same thing can happen with a bad teacher and classroom full of pentiums with an 'Explore the rain forests' CD-ROM - its just a hell of a lot more expensive.
Stop wasting money on computers/Internet in the school. Spend the money on paying teachers a respectable salary instead.
-josh
the quality of software / the quality of teachers (Score:5)
oh, but there is correlation! if people buy something, that means it has value to them!
but that's not the main point. the problem is not just schools not spending much, but also the industry not providing much of interest.
case in point, i recently talked with an old high school teacher of mine, and at one point he started telling me about the college-level calculus courses they're planning, and the difficulties they have finding the right software. his experience was that the market is pretty much split into silly puzzle-style programs on one end, and mathematica on the other - nothing in between. college freshmen trying to find good tutoring software to help them with calc can relate, i'm sure. no wonder people don't buy programs, if there's little available.
and secondly, regarding the poor quality of school software - i've worked for a while in one of the big public school systems, and educational software costs a lot. depending on software, it can get into upper double- and triple-digits per machine for a specialized program (times several dozen machines per lab). on one hand it's understandable, because a limited-market title is naturally going to be more expensive to offset production costs - but if you're an educator faced with a choice of spending your entire yearly software budget on one or two specialized titles, or several types of general productivity and math/statistics software, which one will you choose? considering present pricing and selection, no wonder we have curricula based around m$ office and mathcad.
which is not to say educators are not to blame. all too often they mistake typing and ms office classes for 'computer science education' - a distinction which i'm afraid is also often lost on college freshmen trying pick a major. labs are often run by people without much it training, who learn as they go. but that is more excusable. teachers are primarily educators, and shouldn't be expected to be necessarily computer savvy. somewhere higher up in the administration there should be people who keep up with technology, evaluate educational software, and advise the teachers, but we've still a way to go until then.
which brings us right back to not having good software to begin with.
free software and the web are the most educational (Score:1)
In the past, there were big hopes for computer aided instruction (CAI), but those don't really seem to have come through.
What computers seem to be most useful for is to learn computer related things (programming, data analysis, etc.), as office tools (text processing, graphics, etc.), and for accessing the Internet. For programming and data analysis, free software is probably the best there is (why warp little minds with VC?). For office tools, most computers ship with some form of office suite anyway; if they don't, that's probably the cheapest purchase per student (unless it's MS Office, of course). And Internet access software is also included.
It's a simple fact: there isn't much need to spend much money on desktop software anymore. I'm religious about not pirating software, and still pretty much the only money I spend on software is on the occasional $30 game.
Re:Oregon trail.... (Score:1)
F..I..R..E
F.I.R.E
FIRE
FIRE
great game it was.. Oregon Trail helped me learn the QWERTY keyboard.
Kids dont need Word! (Score:1)
We had computers in elementary school. Apple ][e's. Did they teach me ANYTHING? Nothing other than I dispised monochrome screens. Later we got newer systems with some computer program that was like a historical game or something. I dont remember, I didnt learn anything from that either. In high school we had a computer lab, a bunch of Mac 960 or some arcane number series. Did I learn anything from those? Nothing more than I hated MacOS 7.x. If schools really want to get any productivity out of computers they need to put them in the hands of the teachers along with some basic training.
The high school where I learned to hate MacOS 7 asked me to come back and consult for them because they were getting beacoup cash for making their school "digital". So I spent many hours and researching and writing up a very good report (IMHO) that would cost them well under budget and get two computers in every classroom, most of the teachers a laptop, a projector in all of the rooms with laptops, DVD players for the language department (watching popular movies in Spanish and French is a good way to get exposed to said language), a TV and VCR in every room, and a very nice set of thin clients in the library for browsing or printing files. My proposal was rejected. Why? Because the teachers in charge of the computer lab (read: in charge of the "digital" money) are Mac users and really want to push PowerPCs with PC adapter cards. My proposal called for PCs which they dont like. My proposal would have gotten them alot more bang for their buck, they want 3000$ Macs in every room, no one gets projectors or anything else now.
The point of that rather long rant is that teachers and administration should NOT be in charge of the purchase of computer hardware and softwware. School boards should hire professional consultants for all computers and computer related purchases. The REASON they dont buy enough software that the SIIA complains about is many teachers don't have the background or technical training to make sound IT decsions. Why do companies hire IT consultants and managers instead of making any Jonny Comelately for IT issues? Because they know what they are doing, their livlihood depends on doing their job wel land under budget. They can also be called upon for technical support and trouble shooting.
Ok, I'm done
Re:Oregon trail.... (Score:1)
Now, here's the part that should freak you out... I finished that school in 1995!
In high school, we've been getting too many brand-new Dells. They're all over the place. But I never see them since when I took my last programming class here (10th grade) we had Tandy 386s. Oh well... I graduate very soon and will go off to RPI next year.
my school was more ghetto than your's (Score:1)
anyway, thanx to the teacher. if only i could have installed linux or freebsd (or any other *bsd, for that matter) i could have set it up to be a school wide file server, web server, and mail server. actually one of those 486's could have done it.
i HATE magnet schools. they're just not fare. why should one group of kids get all that stuff and others be screwed? the magnet school in fairfax county is herndon high. they have multiple t1s, switched 100baseT lans, cd towers, top of the line servers w/ huge raid arrays, etc, etc. then there's the "smart" school for the "GT" ("gifted and talented" kids) who get all sorts of sparcstations and cisco routers to play w/ till their hearts content. when i was in the library at cedar, i was told to stop downloading a quicktime plugin for netscape (i installed tons of software on many different computers throughout the school). i stopped, did as i was told, and then found out that the teacher had gone and written me up behind my back; i found out the next day i wasn't allowed on the computers for a week. the next year, someone changed the passwords on some of the library's win95 boxes. so who do they blame? you guessed it, ME. after i had helped admin their network, assign ip's, install software, fix problems,
help students and teachers with things on the computers, etc. they asked me if i did it and i said no; they didn't believe me. they believed i was a "hacker". it made me wish i had never done anything for them. in the end, they decided to be nice and "let me off" cuz they couldn't prove anything. another incident w/ the assitant princible, was in the computer lab one day, when the teacher's kid was sick. she was subbing for my period until he returned. the first (warning bell) rang and she thought it was the final late bell. i told her there was still 10min left and she said "don't tell me what time it is, boy." that wasn't all, the school was full of pregnant 16 year olds (some i even tried to talk out of getting pregnant w/ their boyfriends) and girls who dated guys in their 30's and 40's (unfortunetly the age of consent in virginia is 16, last i heard). i could go on, but i think you get the idea, it sucked.
my school was more ghetto than your's (Score:1)
i HATE magnet schools. they're just not fare. why should one group of kids get all that stuff and others be screwed? the magnet school in fairfax county is herndon high. they have multiple t1s, switched 100baseT lans, cd towers, top of the line servers w/ huge raid arrays, etc, etc. then there's the "smart" school for the "GT" ("gifted and talented" kids) who get all sorts of sparcstations and cisco routers to play w/ till their hearts content. when i was in the library at cedar, i was told to stop downloading a quicktime plugin for netscape (i installed tons of software on many different computers throughout the school). i stopped, did as i was told, and then found out that the teacher had gone and written me up behind my back; i found out the next day i wasn't allowed on the computers for a week. the next year, someone changed the passwords on some of the library's win95 boxes. so who do they blame? you guessed it, ME. after i had helped admin their network, assign ip's, install software, fix problems, help students and teachers with things on the computers, etc. they asked me if i did it and i said no; they didn't believe me. they believed i was a "hacker". it made me wish i had never done anything for them. in the end, they decided to be nice and "let me off" cuz they couldn't prove anything. another incident w/ the assitant princible, was in the computer lab one day, when the teacher's kid was sick. she was subbing for my period until he returned. the first (warning bell) rang and she thought it was the final late bell. i told her there was still 10min left and she said "don't tell me what time it is, boy." that wasn't all, the school was full of pregnant 16 year olds (some i even tried to talk out of getting pregnant w/ their boyfriends) and girls who dated guys in their 30's and 40's (unfortunetly the age of consent in virginia is 16, last i heard). i could go on, but i think you get the idea, it sucked.
School Admins and Technology (Score:1)
While attending a meeting of several L2L testbed projects, my manager had the occasion to speak with a school administrator who had received beaucoups bucks from the state in order to get her school wired. When my boss inquired about how she'd approached the problem, she said that it was easy. Apparently, she'd purchased a score of HP Vectra computers - the ones with the little button on the keyboard that say "Internet".
My manager tried to break the news to her, but she was quite convinced that she was all set, and he didn't have the heart to ruin her day. The point of all this being - of course school muckity-mucks aren't buying software. They wouldn't know what to do with it.
Re:Computers in the arts? (Score:1)
Re:High School Student's View (Score:1)
Students get a chance to use a computer at least one period a day (plus homeroom). Some classrooms have mini-labs (~10 PCs). They are actually one-piece (monitor+CPU) 386 machines connected to an NT terminal server (Dual PII450 w/328mb RAM, 18gb disk). The library has about 12 PCs for student use (6 Terminal Server machines, 6 P-75s). There is also a 20-machine computer lab with 20 more P75s. In the main computer lab there are 25 P200MMXes and 2 PII400s (for video editing). Students in certain groups (such as National Honor Society, etc.) get mail messages to their personal mail accounts. We use MS Word 97 and WordPerfect 8 for writing reports. They teach Word, Excel, Accounting, Cisco Networking, and next year Computer Literacy (from A-Plus), and Computer Hardware (also A-Plus.) (After the Cisco class, I plan on taking the test to get my CCNA.) The shop teacher also teaches AutoCAD, and computer based robotics, CNC milling, and electronics. Students do research for most classes on the internet. We have subscriptions to a few online research services too. The science classes have computer based physics and chemistry experiments (data acquisition stuff). The biology classes also track migrating birds with data from a local wildlife refuge and then they plot the data using ArcView. We have a service called NovaNet with online curriculum on almost any subject. It has tests and grades student progress online too. (I am taking Russian on it right now.) We can also go on the internet whenever we want, from any PC.
This summer, we will be installing (thanks to e-rate) a full-duplex switched 100Mbps (200Mpbs Full Duplex) ethernet, replacing our current token ring system. We will be adding a new Compaq server (Dual PII450) with NetWare 5. (Though I may convince them to use Linux instead.) We are putting in Cisco 100Mbps switches (two at the highschool and one at the elementary, with fiber connecting the buildings) so each machine will have a dedicated switch port. The e-rate paid for 70% of the switches and rewiring. The rest (the other 30% and all the other equipment) is paid for by the school district.
All in all we have about 75 PCs for 250 students. Since most are in labs or the library, basically anyone can use a PC whenever they need to. (During class, homeroom or after school.) We also have a T1 to the internet, 48GB of server storage space, 14 served CD-ROM drives, a PII-233 web server, and a MetaFrame terminal server (8 servers in all).
The only software we've bought is MS and WordPerfect office for the whole school, a few copies of AutoCAD, some grading software, MetaFrame, and video editing software. Our ArcView software was donated. Most of our computer budget goes into hardware...
Andy
Re:Hello!!!! Wake up!! (Score:1)
Hopefully, with all this Universal Service Fund money coming in, schools can update their computing infrastructure to something other than the products from Uncle Billy's Evil Software Empire.
This is why open source rules (Score:2)
Re:If they don't buy.. do they steal? - Yes!!!! (Score:2)
Computers in the arts? (Score:1)
Hmmm, I wonder which one is ahead . . . Now, if I'm not mistaken, computers should be used in schools for four things:
Now, HOW would you use computers for a subject defined (by the SIIA) as "reading"? And the "arts"? Fine, I can see using a computer to create digital art, but how about painting, music, sculpture, and photography?
Partially true (Score:2)
It seems to me that most of the kids games these days are created with Macromedia Director or Macromedia Authorware, both of which port software fairly easily between the two plaforms.
--SONET
Ummm... :) (Score:2)
I've never heard of such software grants, I think you are mistaken. There are often reduced prices when you buy a 'site license' (which most often includes a license for 25 machines), but I guaruntee you that these companies don't give their software away. You are talking about a huge market here. Usually even the reduced prices aren't that great - they are usually way out of our reach at our school site.
As for Microsoft, the closest thing that Microsoft offers to what you are saying to schoools is an 'open license', and I know for sure that it is definately not free.
You might be confusing grants that different companies sometimes offer with site licenses. These grants require that you apply for them, and usually you are competing with a large number of other schools or organizations. One grant that I'm helping out with now has 400 other schools competing for it, and there is only one $3000 grant that will be awarded. Grants can be larger (even in the millions sometimes, though this is very very rare), but this usually means there are more organizations competing for it (often times thousands or tens of thousands). Chances of getting them are slim, and usually they choose the same schools or school districts repeatedly - which gets rather frustrating for the majority of the schools that repeatedly get nothing.
One school in a nearby district received a $1 million grant last year, and was awarded a $3 million grant for next year. It's especially frustrating to find after talking with some of the students that most of the technology isn't even being used.
As for the free software offers, I would be *really* intrested to see some URLs or phone numbers posted here. Otherwise, I would have to say that you are definately wrong about this.
--SONET
most software isnt that great (Score:4)
As the technology coordinator of an elementary school, I don't buy much software because most of it is pretty bad. I have found that usually software that has good content is usually coded *really* bad (crashes regularly), and when I find software that runs decent (relative term) the content is pointless. It's pretty frustrating.
So, the kids learn how to actually use the computers most of the time rather than having them play useless games all the time. In the computer lab we take machines apart, they learn how to navigate through the file system I created, learn word processing skills, and they make extensive use of the Internet down to 2nd grade. I guess this is most useful for them to learn anyway.
I wish the software we have would run on Linux. Even more I wish the software companies would sell Linux versions of their software... but I realize this is a long way off if it ever happens. I am actually getting some Linux boxes together this weekend to deploy in a classroom or two in the next week or so (primarily for word processing and Internet access).
--SONET
Our School Technology Site [k12.ca.us]
What I learned about computers during High School (Score:2)
My point:
My school had a very good computer program from a monetary standpoint. I did learn a lot about applications. However, in order to learn more about things I was interested in I had to learn on my own about programming, operating systems, and more. I did learn on my own, I learned C/C++, Linux, HTML ... However spending more on software is useless if you don't have teachers competent enough to teach it.
Hello!!!! Wake up!! (Score:2)
Look where this information is coming from. (Score:5)
This "report" was constructed solely for the purpose of generating revenue for the companies that sponsor the trade group. It's ridiculous. Most intelligent people will completely ignore it. However, some idiotic school board administrators will likely see the report and say, "We should spend a chunk of our budget on new computer software."
And you know what sucks about this? It's OUR money. We pay property taxes that go to the school districts. Even if you're renting, part of your rent goes to the property taxes for the building you live in. Arghh.
Ain't it funny... (Score:3)
I would actually say that these businesses aren't giving enough software away to schools. Things like OS's, Virus Protection, Development Tools, and Office applications should be offered free to by anyone to any public educational organization.
(Hmmm. Perhaps that statement should earn a "Well, DUH!")
Oh well, it's thinking like that which explains why I'm not a billionaire (or millionaire, or thousandaire).
Re:A Taxpayer's View (Score:2)
Teachers make crap. Admins make entirely too much, and have too much budget authority.
Ever visited your local dept of education office? Where I went, it was a pretty glass tower, with lots of plush carpeting. I had classes in a leaky trailer, with the teachers making $20k.
School computing isn't all hell... (Score:2)
The first course used computers without really being a computing course. It was "Keyboarding" (a touch-typing class) taught on PCjrs. The teacher knew zero about PCjrs (good thing there was myself and another geek there, or we wouldn't have booted them), and she probably used to teach typing on manual typewriters. She was a strict disciplinarian, which is exactly what is needed for this course. Touch typing doesn't expand your mind, but is the ultimate drill 'n kill course. While she taught us touch-typing, we taught her a bit about computers and lightweight word processing. Note: this was the type of room that taught IBM to leave the cords on the keyboards. Thirty PC jrs in one room, each of them connected to their keyboard by nothing but infrared and no auth codes--we had lots of fun standing up and aiming our keyboards at each others' computers!
The other course, called "Computer Programming" or somesuch, was on the venerable Apple ][. The teacher, in this case, knew at least a bit about programming. The school didn't have a "CS" department, so it made the course a math elective. If you assume that higher math exists in school to stretch your mind in abstract directions, programming does make for a fine math course.
We spent the first half of the year programming in BASIC, and the second half programming in Pascal.
Three notes to slashdotters still in school.
First, when using computers in a course about computers, some teachers don't mind being taught computers while teaching you the real subject matter. This helps the next class.
Second, anyone who intends to spend their career at a console or terminal should take a typing course. It's boring. It's harsh. It's the worst nightmare of drill 'n kill. But it's useful drill 'n kill. With touch typing, you can just think the words and your fingers will get them into the computer for you. People don't naturally progress from hunt 'n peck to touch typing; the only way I know to gain the skill is the drill 'n kill. It beats burning brainpower over the next forty years watching your keyboard, looking for the 'v' key. Barring direct neural interface, touch typing is the shortest line between you and the box.
Third, enjoy those computer courses where you know more than the teacher. You will still learn something from the teacher, and you may be able to teach the teacher some neat tricks (again, be careful and don't try to show off your wizardly superiority). Most importantly, however, is that you can turn the course into an opportunity to gain school credit for hacking. If you can stump the teacher, you're likely finishing assignments early. Use that opportunity to hack at what you want to hack at--if you have a good teacher, they'll help you in your endeavors. One of the best ways to learn coding is to write code. Consider it a lab course to do exactly that. Besides, it sure beats study hall ;^>
Computers in Schools (Score:3)
That course turned out to be one of the best I've ever taken. Yeah, it was on already-ancient Apple ]['s. Yeah, it was in BASIC. But the instructor actually knew what the heck he was doing, and he taught us Structured BASIC. GOTO's were not allowed. We had to learn to use WHILE loops. We had to put colons in as whitespace to make the stuff prettyprint. And he was a pretty darned good software tester, and wouldn't let you move on until your program was bulletproof.
All of that came in very handy when I later moved on to C. I would have been lost, otherwise. So I'm still benefitting from the things I learned in that course, even though I took it 13 years ago, even though we were using Apple ]['s, and even though we were using a form of BASIC.
Contrast that with the university I attended, which had modern (for the time) 386's. I took the required introduction to computers course, and learned such 'useful' things as what a CPU is, what the difference between RAM, ROM, and disk space is, and how to flowchart a program (although we never actually typed in a program in that class). The bulk of the time was spent on learning how to use Lotus 1-2-3 for DOS, WordPerfect for DOS, and DBase for DOS.
Of course, I already knew all that stuff, so I was bored out of my mind. Yet the course was required, even though the information was fairly useless.
The point of my stories is that the equipment and software doesn't matter as much as what the instructors
So, yes, it would be nice if every school, college, and university had a computer with a full range of programs and a fast connection to the internet on every desk. But the likelihood of that is miniscule, so it'd be nice if more attention was paid to what is taught than what sort of equipment is used.
-Joe
not "begs a few questions" (Score:2)
Re:If they don't buy.. do they steal? - Yes!!!! (Score:2)
The fact is, no one cares, and no one checks. We burned off copies of software for professors for use at home, for ourselves...any reason at all. It keeps the departmental budgets down, and makes things look good to the accounting department. Sure, they're supposed to buy licenses, and we get pretty good deals on them too....but....there's paperwork to be done for buying things - and it's easier.
And we all know it's not just my school, it's everywhere - exceptt those that may have draconian accounting policies. I'll wager a large number of corporations do as well.
But hey. I'd launch into a huge comment on piracy, but I'll stay on topic.
TY
Re:Another High School Student's View (Score:2)
The problem is that school administrators are too much like any other administrators in the world: looking for prepackaged solutions that can be summed up in a pat "proposal". The idea of putting a unix host with some terminals and then setting the students free is, I expect, rarely even imagined.
This reminds me of a story. When I was in Junior high we had only 3 computers: an AppleII+ and two TRS-80's. The library decided to catalog their books on the Apple and had a student write the program for them. He did, but then he left the school and on the last day the program crashed. Did they hire a "consultant" to come in and fix it. Of course not; they grabbed me and a friend and had us pour through his 600 lines of Applesoft BASIC and fix the problem. What a neat experience for a kid that was. I don't think that this happens much anymore.
Schools losing ground (Score:5)
When I was a kid we learned BASIC in junior high and assembler and PASCAL in high school. I was in a high school recently that had no programming classes at all. However, they did have 90+ PC's in their Business Ed department, all running Word and Excel.
Obviously something is wrong here.
There is a Point here (Score:3)
There is a lesson here.... School sucks, live with that fact, but you dont have to live with it, you can self educate/ educate your children. I spend $3K per year on my childrens computer education for hardware and some years I double that. software?? we buy nothing except games
BTW: my kids still cant kick my butt in quake, but they do whine because I play on the Qake server....
Re:Oregon trail.... (Score:2)
High School Student's View (Score:5)
Reply from a school support manager (Score:4)
I manage a computer tech department at a fairly large college (which anyone with half a brain can figure out with one click! :). I have a few comments on the story and on the followup comments:
Regardless, if the SPA ever did audit us or any other school, they should be shot. That story is a big crock and it almost seems like they are trying to set up a justification to starting campaigns to audit schools for software piracy just because low expendiatures on software just must indicate software piracy internally.
Exactly right! (Score:2)
This is because, for a lot of people, teaching is a "backup" profession: after finding that a BS in Italian doesn't apply to many jobs, it's easy to go back to school and get a teaching credential. People who have an engineering degree can find jobs pretty easily, as can, for the most part, people with science degrees. So the teaching ranks end up being rather heavily weighted towards people with liberal arts degrees.
There are, of course, people who go into teaching as their first choice, but it's rare for these people to be into science and technology. This is unfortunate, as technology becomes even more important in the future.
I'm not sure what can be done about this, though. The US doesn't have a culture that values teachers very highly, and so it's hard to find people who are interested in going into teaching as a first choice. Teaching is a rather low paying job (although teachers usually get 3 months off a year), so it doesn't have much draw for those people who can find other jobs, especially tech ones.
The teachers who are into tech, though, can really make a difference. My jr. high computer teacher definitely changed my life by taking the time to encourange my interests in programming...
Re:It's a valid complaint (Score:2)
Math or programming, it's all really the same thing. Hence, you can make programs out of math and math is the foundation of all programming. It's all just formalized symbolism to us chickens.
Schools shouldn't buy software! (Score:2)
Anyway, it's my view that if you want to REALLY educate the students about computers they're going to have to see how they WORK. To do that, closed source software is simply not going to cut it. You can get Linux for free and make as many copies as you want. You get a wonderful programming environment and basic software tools that could be used to write reports and whatnot. You can look under the hood and see how anything that interests you works. And what's more, you can run it quite well with a GUI on a 486/66 and quite well with a command prompt with a system as low-end as a 386 SX. So you can put that round of hardware buying off for another year and perhaps hire someone who might be able to teach your kids something about the computers.
All in all, Linux is a much more "educational" environment than Windows or MacOS, and you benefit from not having to worry about silly licensing problems. An in the know school board should not only advocate Linux usage, they should mandate it.