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Is the iToaster a Linux Box? Will there be Source? 193

Allright so several people have noted that the iToaster from Microworkz runs a "BeOS/Linux Hybrid". Sounds kinda crazy, but it was confirmd by (quoted on MSNBC and CNNfn as well as confirmed in an email from their sales dept.) So the question is when can we download their changes to the Linux kernel? Hit the link below to read more explanation on why the answer is never.

I was given several different answers from different people. Here is a reply to an email asking about the code I sent to (sales@microworkz.com)

  • Mr. Malda,

    Thank you for your interest in Microworkz.com. The iToaster operating system is a hybrid between BeOs and Linux and is licensed and patented by Microworkz.com, Inc. The source code is therefore proprietary and not available for download.

    The Linux pure source code is however at www.linux.com.

    If you have any other questions or if you would like to place an order, please give our Sales Team a call at (888) 306-2044 from 7am - 8pm Monday through Friday and 10am - 5pm Saturday and Sunday PST. Or simply check out our web sites at www.microworkz.com.

So I called them and asked more. I talked to a very nice gentleman who put me on hold for awhile while he found answers. According to him, the iToaster does not run Linux (although according to the email posted above from the sales department, it runs "A Hybrid between BeOS and Linux". This is sorta what the MSNBC article said ("The way it was explained to me, BeOS handles the file system, while Linux does just about everything else.")

So I guess there are 2 possibilities here:

  1. Microworkz messed up by using the word "Linux" when dealing with CNNfn and MSNBC, as their machine does not run Linux at all. This seems to be what I was told on the phone.
  2. Microworkz is violating the GPL by making modifications to the Linux kernel and not releasing them.

At this point there really isn't much we can do about it since the iToaster isn't really out so we can't do any pounding on it to determine if their is something questionable going on.

Thanks to the many of you who wrote in to give us the heads up on this. We'll keep you posted if we figure out more.

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Is the iToaster a Linux Box? Will there be Source?

Comments Filter:
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Lives there a man with soul so dead
    He's never to his toaster said:
    "You are my friend; I see in you
    An object sturdy, staunch, and true;
    A fellow mettlesome and trim;
    A brightness that the years can't dim."?
    Then let us praise the brave appliance
    In which we place this just reliance.
    And offer it with each fresh slice
    Such words of friendship and advice
    As "How are things with you tonight?"
    Or "Not too dark but not too light."
    - Thomas M. Disch
    (from The Brave Little Toaster)
  • by Anonymous Coward
    It's a BeOS system. I think the confusion (in their marketing dept. and w/the journalists) is that the BeOS is somewhat POSIX compliant and includes a lot of ported GNU software (compilers, shell tools, etc...). The source is, of course, available for these...
  • by Anonymous Coward
    This isn't really new for anyone who has been following either Be or the DOJ trial. Remember Compaq passing Be secrets to MS? That had to do with Be's development of a Win CE competitor. Be has also been working on embedded systems (some of the Be developers also work for/with QNX). Gassee's been talking for at least 5 months about internet appliances. Check: http://www.benews.com/story/?ID=680

    Really, some people really need to improve on their short-term memory skills.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    You've figured out the conspiracy. The GPL is a communist plot. It's an attempt to infiltrate the American economy through the software industry. The whole Soviet Union collapse was just a ruse to make people in the U.S. think the communist threat was over.

    Most of the original communist conspiracies were failures. The attempt to take over the movie industry in the 1950s was thwarted by congressional investigations. The attempt to contaminate the bodily fluids of Americans with flouridated drinking water failed. The effort to place communists in teaching roles in American universities is having mixed results -- they can't tell the infiltrators from regular political science professors.

    Many members of the great communist conspiracy believe that the GPL is their last hope. They will take extraordinary measures to protect it. I suggest you check your home for bugs and your phone for taps. Make sure you are not being followed by their agents -- they can be identified by thier facial hair, sandals, tie-dyed t-shirts, and poor diets.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Listen I've seen the itoaster, it runs BEOS R4.5 and thats that. It really has less than nothing to do with Linux except that a posix shell is included and the window dressing scheme is more x-windows like then the beos native windows. It is currently on display in prototype form at the BEOS booth at PCexpo. Calling is a hybrid is just a marketing decision and as far as I can tell has no technical merit. Proof being that it runs netpositive (the beos web browser) and Gobe productive ( the beos only office suite). Now there is the possibility that some linux code was used in the boot loader or some such but that doesn't qualify it as a hybrid as far as I am concerned. -- Matt
  • by Anonymous Coward
    This was on www.nbcnews.com---->


    Here is the link...

    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/284751.asp

    --->
    ACCORDING TO COMPANY sources, the top management
    team -- the chief operating officer, the chief financial officer, the
    chief information officer and the comptroller -- resigned in the
    past month. Latman confirmed the departure of CFO Brian
    Lofquist, saying he was fired for causing some of Microworkz's
    troubles.
    Two top managers who departed the company but asked
    not to named said they left because of ethical concerns with the
    company's business practices -- specifically, the company's
    inability to deliver its products as promised and its sluggishness in
    refunding consumers.
    The company has had well-publicized problems with its
    product line. In March, Microworkz.com shook the PC world with
    announcement of the $299 Webster Jr. PC -- the deal included
    one free year of Net access from Earthlink. But Microworkz now
    admits serious production troubles, and when the company
    launched the product April 19, it wasn't able to fill many orders
    for weeks, in some cases, months.
    But despite the problems of fulfilling orders, the company
    nonetheless charged its customers' credit cards. Not long after,
    the Better Business Bureau of Western Washington and the
    Washington State attorney general's office began receiving
    complaints; about 100 in all, according to Latman. Janice Marich,
    spokesperson for the attorney general's office, said the
    complaints included outright failure to deliver PCs, failure to
    refund money, and allegations that PCs were shipped with
    inferior components.
    'This company has
    made our radar
    screen,'
    -- JANICE MARICH
    Spokesperson for the attorney
    general's office
    "This company has made our radar screen," Marich said,
    declining to say if an official investigation has been launched into
    the company's practices.
    The Better Business Bureau has received similar complaints,
    and Microworkz "has an unsatisfactory business record," according
    to a BBB report. Frustrated consumers also set up a Web site to
    air complaints.
    "We're only talking about 100 people," Latman said. "That's
    not a huge amount." He said problems stemmed from inadequate
    computer systems, which caused lag time before refunds could
    be sent to consumers. Latman says he has put those problems
    behind the company now, claiming PCs now ship within seven
    days and all refund request complaints have been cleared up.


    AOL in talks to enter PC biz
    Microworkz iToaster: a $199 PC


    The iToaster is set to launch July 15, and Latman says the
    company is geared up to make the boxes on time this time --
    with a production line that would be capable of perhaps 150,000
    to 200,000 machines a month. A similar statement was included
    in the company's April 19 press release about the Webzter: "The
    company has the capability to produce 200,000 computers per
    month," that release said. The company's well-publicized
    problems began after that.
    There have been other
    sources of confusion,
    too -- such as when
    the company was
    actually founded.

    Latman contends things will be different this time around --
    the company has said it will only take orders for 10,000 of the
    boxes at first to ensure it can fill demand.
    Still, some of the iToaster's features seem to be in flux.
    Latman told an MSNBC reporter at the PC Expo trade show in
    New York earlier this month that the operating system was a
    mixture of Linux and BeOS. But he told CNBC on Friday that
    objections from the Linux community changed his mind -- the
    first iToasters will have Be and a proprietary "front end."
    There have been other sources of confusion, too -- such as
    when the company was actually founded. Its Web site says
    Microworkz was founded in 1991 as an independent custom
    software vendor. The company told the Better Business Bureau
    it was founded in 1996, and employees tell MSNBC the actual
    start date was early 1998. It was incorporated in November of
    1998.
    On June 6, the company's status as a legal corporation was
    dissolved by the Washington Secretary of State's office. The
    most likely reason, according to a spokesperson, was failure to file
    an annual report.
    The consequence: the company can still conduct retail
    business, but it cannot conduct any corporate business. The CEO
    shrugged it off as a technicality.
    "It's a piece of paper that has to be filed once a year. Some
    attorneys do it on time. I called the lawyers in and they waved it
    off laughingly. They said they do it in November of every year,"
    Latman said.
    There are other legal troubles for the company as well -- it's
    being sued by PC parts supplier Amptron International Inc. for
    allegedly failing to pay $41,930 in bills, and bouncing two checks
    in December of last year. The suit lashes out personally at
    Latman:
    "Latman has, and is still, utilizing Microworkz as his alter ego
    by so dominating, controlling, and influencing Microworkz's assets
    and activities for his own profit, by so failing to satisfy any
    corporate formalities such as a proper maintenance of minutes,
    director's meetings, etc., by so commingling his personal funds
    with Microworkz, and by so failing to establish and/or maintain a
    level of capitalization sufficient and/or necessary to conduct
    business, as to create a unity of interest and destroy any
    separatenesss between Latman ... and Microworkz."
    Former employees describe Latman as charismatic, inspiring
    Microworkz employees by comparing the company to Dell
    Computer Corp. But the former employees all said Latman often
    promised more than he could deliver. And despite several
    statements from the company that 50,000 Webzter PCs have
    been ordered, several former employees contend the company
    has received only between 2,000 and 3,000 orders.
    There are other troubles for Latman, too. He's being sued
    by his co-investors in a Seattle-based porn Web site venture
    called Dream Haus Inc. According to the Puget Sound Business
    Journal, partners say Latman bounced $22,000 worth of checks,
    and created a contest on their site. www.coolchicks.com, with a
    grand prize of $50,000 without their consent -- and without
    having the money.
    This is not the first venture Latman has been involved in
    which had trouble delivering merchandise. MSNBC has learned
    that 19 small claims judgments were issued against a Beverly Hills
    bridal shop run by his wife, Bettina Latman. Richard Latman is
    personally cited on half of them. Several of those were initiated
    by consumers who complained they left a deposit on a dress, but
    never received the gown.
    MSNBC research turned up another 26 judgments of one
    kind or another against Latman or his wife, including three hefty
    tax liens: he owes the IRS $225,000, and $47,000 in California
    state taxes.
    "I don't doubt that. But what does this have to do with
    Microworkz?" Latman said when told of the judgments. He said
    the liens still exist because the couple chose not to declare
    bankruptcy.
    "I wear that failure as a badge," he said, referring to the
    failed boutique. "I was involved in counseling her [on the
    business]. The reality is the business was poorly planned and ...
    the business failed."
    When asked to offer prior technology industry experience,
    Latman declined.
    Before founding Microworkz "I was going to write software
    on a boat," he said. "I have written several dramatic plays. My
    goal was to be a writer."
    Got a tip about this story? Write to tipoff@msnbc.com
  • May be they should read this..Flame the bastards for trying to take the Geeks for a ride

    This was on www.nbcnews.com---->


    Here is the link...

    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/284751.asp

    --->
    ACCORDING TO COMPANY sources, the top management
    team -- the chief operating officer, the chief financial officer, the
    chief information officer and the comptroller -- resigned in the
    past month. Latman confirmed the departure of CFO Brian
    Lofquist, saying he was fired for causing some of Microworkz's
    troubles.
    Two top managers who departed the company but asked
    not to named said they left because of ethical concerns with the
    company's business practices -- specifically, the company's
    inability to deliver its products as promised and its sluggishness in
    refunding consumers.
    The company has had well-publicized problems with its
    product line. In March, Microworkz.com shook the PC world with
    announcement of the $299 Webster Jr. PC -- the deal included
    one free year of Net access from Earthlink. But Microworkz now
    admits serious production troubles, and when the company
    launched the product April 19, it wasn't able to fill many orders
    for weeks, in some cases, months.
    But despite the problems of fulfilling orders, the company
    nonetheless charged its customers' credit cards. Not long after,
    the Better Business Bureau of Western Washington and the
    Washington State attorney general's office began receiving
    complaints; about 100 in all, according to Latman. Janice Marich,
    spokesperson for the attorney general's office, said the
    complaints included outright failure to deliver PCs, failure to
    refund money, and allegations that PCs were shipped with
    inferior components.
    'This company has
    made our radar
    screen,'
    -- JANICE MARICH
    Spokesperson for the attorney
    general's office
    "This company has made our radar screen," Marich said,
    declining to say if an official investigation has been launched into
    the company's practices.
    The Better Business Bureau has received similar complaints,
    and Microworkz "has an unsatisfactory business record," according
    to a BBB report. Frustrated consumers also set up a Web site to
    air complaints.
    "We're only talking about 100 people," Latman said. "That's
    not a huge amount." He said problems stemmed from inadequate
    computer systems, which caused lag time before refunds could
    be sent to consumers. Latman says he has put those problems
    behind the company now, claiming PCs now ship within seven
    days and all refund request complaints have been cleared up.


    AOL in talks to enter PC biz
    Microworkz iToaster: a $199 PC


    The iToaster is set to launch July 15, and Latman says the
    company is geared up to make the boxes on time this time --
    with a production line that would be capable of perhaps 150,000
    to 200,000 machines a month. A similar statement was included
    in the company's April 19 press release about the Webzter: "The
    company has the capability to produce 200,000 computers per
    month," that release said. The company's well-publicized
    problems began after that.
    There have been other
    sources of confusion,
    too -- such as when
    the company was
    actually founded.

    Latman contends things will be different this time around --
    the company has said it will only take orders for 10,000 of the
    boxes at first to ensure it can fill demand.
    Still, some of the iToaster's features seem to be in flux.
    Latman told an MSNBC reporter at the PC Expo trade show in
    New York earlier this month that the operating system was a
    mixture of Linux and BeOS. But he told CNBC on Friday that
    objections from the Linux community changed his mind -- the
    first iToasters will have Be and a proprietary "front end."
    There have been other sources of confusion, too -- such as
    when the company was actually founded. Its Web site says
    Microworkz was founded in 1991 as an independent custom
    software vendor. The company told the Better Business Bureau
    it was founded in 1996, and employees tell MSNBC the actual
    start date was early 1998. It was incorporated in November of
    1998.
    On June 6, the company's status as a legal corporation was
    dissolved by the Washington Secretary of State's office. The
    most likely reason, according to a spokesperson, was failure to file
    an annual report.
    The consequence: the company can still conduct retail
    business, but it cannot conduct any corporate business. The CEO
    shrugged it off as a technicality.
    "It's a piece of paper that has to be filed once a year. Some
    attorneys do it on time. I called the lawyers in and they waved it
    off laughingly. They said they do it in November of every year,"
    Latman said.
    There are other legal troubles for the company as well -- it's
    being sued by PC parts supplier Amptron International Inc. for
    allegedly failing to pay $41,930 in bills, and bouncing two checks
    in December of last year. The suit lashes out personally at
    Latman:
    "Latman has, and is still, utilizing Microworkz as his alter ego
    by so dominating, controlling, and influencing Microworkz's assets
    and activities for his own profit, by so failing to satisfy any
    corporate formalities such as a proper maintenance of minutes,
    director's meetings, etc., by so commingling his personal funds
    with Microworkz, and by so failing to establish and/or maintain a
    level of capitalization sufficient and/or necessary to conduct
    business, as to create a unity of interest and destroy any
    separatenesss between Latman ... and Microworkz."
    Former employees describe Latman as charismatic, inspiring
    Microworkz employees by comparing the company to Dell
    Computer Corp. But the former employees all said Latman often
    promised more than he could deliver. And despite several
    statements from the company that 50,000 Webzter PCs have
    been ordered, several former employees contend the company
    has received only between 2,000 and 3,000 orders.
    There are other troubles for Latman, too. He's being sued
    by his co-investors in a Seattle-based porn Web site venture
    called Dream Haus Inc. According to the Puget Sound Business
    Journal, partners say Latman bounced $22,000 worth of checks,
    and created a contest on their site. www.coolchicks.com, with a
    grand prize of $50,000 without their consent -- and without
    having the money.
    This is not the first venture Latman has been involved in
    which had trouble delivering merchandise. MSNBC has learned
    that 19 small claims judgments were issued against a Beverly Hills
    bridal shop run by his wife, Bettina Latman. Richard Latman is
    personally cited on half of them. Several of those were initiated
    by consumers who complained they left a deposit on a dress, but
    never received the gown.
    MSNBC research turned up another 26 judgments of one
    kind or another against Latman or his wife, including three hefty
    tax liens: he owes the IRS $225,000, and $47,000 in California
    state taxes.
    "I don't doubt that. But what does this have to do with
    Microworkz?" Latman said when told of the judgments. He said
    the liens still exist because the couple chose not to declare
    bankruptcy.
    "I wear that failure as a badge," he said, referring to the
    failed boutique. "I was involved in counseling her [on the
    business]. The reality is the business was poorly planned and ...
    the business failed."
    When asked to offer prior technology industry experience,
    Latman declined.
    Before founding Microworkz "I was going to write software
    on a boat," he said. "I have written several dramatic plays. My
    goal was to be a writer."
    Got a tip about this story? Write to tipoff@msnbc.com
  • Here is the very very correct url for the piss toaster

    This was on www.nbcnews.com---->





    Here is the link...



    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/284751.asp



    --->

    ACCORDING TO COMPANY sources, the top management

    team -- the chief operating officer, the chief financial officer, the

    chief information officer and the comptroller -- resigned in the

    past month. Latman confirmed the departure of CFO Brian

    Lofquist, saying he was fired for causing some of Microworkz's

    troubles.

    Two top managers who departed the company but asked

    not to named said they left because of ethical concerns with the

    company's business practices -- specifically, the company's

    inability to deliver its products as promised and its sluggishness in

    refunding consumers.

    The company has had well-publicized problems with its

    product line. In March, Microworkz.com shook the PC world with

    announcement of the $299 Webster Jr. PC -- the deal included

    one free year of Net access from Earthlink. But Microworkz now

    admits serious production troubles, and when the company

    launched the product April 19, it wasn't able to fill many orders

    for weeks, in some cases, months.

    But despite the problems of fulfilling orders, the company

    nonetheless charged its customers' credit cards. Not long after,

    the Better Business Bureau of Western Washington and the

    Washington State attorney general's office began receiving

    complaints; about 100 in all, according to Latman. Janice Marich,

    spokesperson for the attorney general's office, said the

    complaints included outright failure to deliver PCs, failure to

    refund money, and allegations that PCs were shipped with

    inferior components.

    'This company has

    made our radar

    screen,'

    -- JANICE MARICH

    Spokesperson for the attorney

    general's office

    "This company has made our radar screen," Marich said,

    declining to say if an official investigation has been launched into

    the company's practices.

    The Better Business Bureau has received similar complaints,

    and Microworkz "has an unsatisfactory business record," according

    to a BBB report. Frustrated consumers also set up a Web site to

    air complaints.

    "We're only talking about 100 people," Latman said. "That's

    not a huge amount." He said problems stemmed from inadequate

    computer systems, which caused lag time before refunds could

    be sent to consumers. Latman says he has put those problems

    behind the company now, claiming PCs now ship within seven

    days and all refund request complaints have been cleared up.





    AOL in talks to enter PC biz

    Microworkz iToaster: a $199 PC





    The iToaster is set to launch July 15, and Latman says the

    company is geared up to make the boxes on time this time --

    with a production line that would be capable of perhaps 150,000

    to 200,000 machines a month. A similar statement was included

    in the company's April 19 press release about the Webzter: "The

    company has the capability to produce 200,000 computers per

    month," that release said. The company's well-publicized

    problems began after that.

    There have been other

    sources of confusion,

    too -- such as when

    the company was

    actually founded.



    Latman contends things will be different this time around --

    the company has said it will only take orders for 10,000 of the

    boxes at first to ensure it can fill demand.

    Still, some of the iToaster's features seem to be in flux.

    Latman told an MSNBC reporter at the PC Expo trade show in

    New York earlier this month that the operating system was a

    mixture of Linux and BeOS. But he told CNBC on Friday that

    objections from the Linux community changed his mind -- the

    first iToasters will have Be and a proprietary "front end."

    There have been other sources of confusion, too -- such as

    when the company was actually founded. Its Web site says

    Microworkz was founded in 1991 as an independent custom

    software vendor. The company told the Better Business Bureau

    it was founded in 1996, and employees tell MSNBC the actual

    start date was early 1998. It was incorporated in November of

    1998.

    On June 6, the company's status as a legal corporation was

    dissolved by the Washington Secretary of State's office. The

    most likely reason, according to a spokesperson, was failure to file

    an annual report.

    The consequence: the company can still conduct retail

    business, but it cannot conduct any corporate business. The CEO

    shrugged it off as a technicality.

    "It's a piece of paper that has to be filed once a year. Some

    attorneys do it on time. I called the lawyers in and they waved it

    off laughingly. They said they do it in November of every year,"

    Latman said.

    There are other legal troubles for the company as well -- it's

    being sued by PC parts supplier Amptron International Inc. for

    allegedly failing to pay $41,930 in bills, and bouncing two checks

    in December of last year. The suit lashes out personally at

    Latman:

    "Latman has, and is still, utilizing Microworkz as his alter ego

    by so dominating, controlling, and influencing Microworkz's assets

    and activities for his own profit, by so failing to satisfy any

    corporate formalities such as a proper maintenance of minutes,

    director's meetings, etc., by so commingling his personal funds

    with Microworkz, and by so failing to establish and/or maintain a

    level of capitalization sufficient and/or necessary to conduct

    business, as to create a unity of interest and destroy any

    separatenesss between Latman ... and Microworkz."

    Former employees describe Latman as charismatic, inspiring

    Microworkz employees by comparing the company to Dell

    Computer Corp. But the former employees all said Latman often

    promised more than he could deliver. And despite several

    statements from the company that 50,000 Webzter PCs have

    been ordered, several former employees contend the company

    has received only between 2,000 and 3,000 orders.

    There are other troubles for Latman, too. He's being sued

    by his co-investors in a Seattle-based porn Web site venture

    called Dream Haus Inc. According to the Puget Sound Business

    Journal, partners say Latman bounced $22,000 worth of checks,

    and created a contest on their site. www.coolchicks.com, with a

    grand prize of $50,000 without their consent -- and without

    having the money.

    This is not the first venture Latman has been involved in

    which had trouble delivering merchandise. MSNBC has learned

    that 19 small claims judgments were issued against a Beverly Hills

    bridal shop run by his wife, Bettina Latman. Richard Latman is

    personally cited on half of them. Several of those were initiated

    by consumers who complained they left a deposit on a dress, but

    never received the gown.

    MSNBC research turned up another 26 judgments of one

    kind or another against Latman or his wife, including three hefty

    tax liens: he owes the IRS $225,000, and $47,000 in California

    state taxes.

    "I don't doubt that. But what does this have to do with

    Microworkz?" Latman said when told of the judgments. He said

    the liens still exist because the couple chose not to declare

    bankruptcy.

    "I wear that failure as a badge," he said, referring to the

    failed boutique. "I was involved in counseling her [on the

    business]. The reality is the business was poorly planned and ...

    the business failed."

    When asked to offer prior technology industry experience,

    Latman declined.

    Before founding Microworkz "I was going to write software

    on a boat," he said. "I have written several dramatic plays. My

    goal was to be a writer."

    Got a tip about this story? Write to tipoff@msnbc.com
  • Guys/Galls Read this before getting sucker punched...Good luck all..Do not waste you greenbacks...

    This was on www.nbcnews.com---->


    Here is the link...

    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/284751.asp

    --->
    ACCORDING TO COMPANY sources, the top management
    team -- the chief operating officer, the chief financial officer, the
    chief information officer and the comptroller -- resigned in the
    past month. Latman confirmed the departure of CFO Brian
    Lofquist, saying he was fired for causing some of Microworkz's
    troubles.
    Two top managers who departed the company but asked
    not to named said they left because of ethical concerns with the
    company's business practices -- specifically, the company's
    inability to deliver its products as promised and its sluggishness in
    refunding consumers.
    The company has had well-publicized problems with its
    product line. In March, Microworkz.com shook the PC world with
    announcement of the $299 Webster Jr. PC -- the deal included
    one free year of Net access from Earthlink. But Microworkz now
    admits serious production troubles, and when the company
    launched the product April 19, it wasn't able to fill many orders
    for weeks, in some cases, months.
    But despite the problems of fulfilling orders, the company
    nonetheless charged its customers' credit cards. Not long after,
    the Better Business Bureau of Western Washington and the
    Washington State attorney general's office began receiving
    complaints; about 100 in all, according to Latman. Janice Marich,
    spokesperson for the attorney general's office, said the
    complaints included outright failure to deliver PCs, failure to
    refund money, and allegations that PCs were shipped with
    inferior components.
    'This company has
    made our radar
    screen,'
    -- JANICE MARICH
    Spokesperson for the attorney
    general's office
    "This company has made our radar screen," Marich said,
    declining to say if an official investigation has been launched into
    the company's practices.
    The Better Business Bureau has received similar complaints,
    and Microworkz "has an unsatisfactory business record," according
    to a BBB report. Frustrated consumers also set up a Web site to
    air complaints.
    "We're only talking about 100 people," Latman said. "That's
    not a huge amount." He said problems stemmed from inadequate
    computer systems, which caused lag time before refunds could
    be sent to consumers. Latman says he has put those problems
    behind the company now, claiming PCs now ship within seven
    days and all refund request complaints have been cleared up.


    AOL in talks to enter PC biz
    Microworkz iToaster: a $199 PC


    The iToaster is set to launch July 15, and Latman says the
    company is geared up to make the boxes on time this time --
    with a production line that would be capable of perhaps 150,000
    to 200,000 machines a month. A similar statement was included
    in the company's April 19 press release about the Webzter: "The
    company has the capability to produce 200,000 computers per
    month," that release said. The company's well-publicized
    problems began after that.
    There have been other
    sources of confusion,
    too -- such as when
    the company was
    actually founded.

    Latman contends things will be different this time around --
    the company has said it will only take orders for 10,000 of the
    boxes at first to ensure it can fill demand.
    Still, some of the iToaster's features seem to be in flux.
    Latman told an MSNBC reporter at the PC Expo trade show in
    New York earlier this month that the operating system was a
    mixture of Linux and BeOS. But he told CNBC on Friday that
    objections from the Linux community changed his mind -- the
    first iToasters will have Be and a proprietary "front end."
    There have been other sources of confusion, too -- such as
    when the company was actually founded. Its Web site says
    Microworkz was founded in 1991 as an independent custom
    software vendor. The company told the Better Business Bureau
    it was founded in 1996, and employees tell MSNBC the actual
    start date was early 1998. It was incorporated in November of
    1998.
    On June 6, the company's status as a legal corporation was
    dissolved by the Washington Secretary of State's office. The
    most likely reason, according to a spokesperson, was failure to file
    an annual report.
    The consequence: the company can still conduct retail
    business, but it cannot conduct any corporate business. The CEO
    shrugged it off as a technicality.
    "It's a piece of paper that has to be filed once a year. Some
    attorneys do it on time. I called the lawyers in and they waved it
    off laughingly. They said they do it in November of every year,"
    Latman said.
    There are other legal troubles for the company as well -- it's
    being sued by PC parts supplier Amptron International Inc. for
    allegedly failing to pay $41,930 in bills, and bouncing two checks
    in December of last year. The suit lashes out personally at
    Latman:
    "Latman has, and is still, utilizing Microworkz as his alter ego
    by so dominating, controlling, and influencing Microworkz's assets
    and activities for his own profit, by so failing to satisfy any
    corporate formalities such as a proper maintenance of minutes,
    director's meetings, etc., by so commingling his personal funds
    with Microworkz, and by so failing to establish and/or maintain a
    level of capitalization sufficient and/or necessary to conduct
    business, as to create a unity of interest and destroy any
    separatenesss between Latman ... and Microworkz."
    Former employees describe Latman as charismatic, inspiring
    Microworkz employees by comparing the company to Dell
    Computer Corp. But the former employees all said Latman often
    promised more than he could deliver. And despite several
    statements from the company that 50,000 Webzter PCs have
    been ordered, several former employees contend the company
    has received only between 2,000 and 3,000 orders.
    There are other troubles for Latman, too. He's being sued
    by his co-investors in a Seattle-based porn Web site venture
    called Dream Haus Inc. According to the Puget Sound Business
    Journal, partners say Latman bounced $22,000 worth of checks,
    and created a contest on their site. www.coolchicks.com, with a
    grand prize of $50,000 without their consent -- and without
    having the money.
    This is not the first venture Latman has been involved in
    which had trouble delivering merchandise. MSNBC has learned
    that 19 small claims judgments were issued against a Beverly Hills
    bridal shop run by his wife, Bettina Latman. Richard Latman is
    personally cited on half of them. Several of those were initiated
    by consumers who complained they left a deposit on a dress, but
    never received the gown.
    MSNBC research turned up another 26 judgments of one
    kind or another against Latman or his wife, including three hefty
    tax liens: he owes the IRS $225,000, and $47,000 in California
    state taxes.
    "I don't doubt that. But what does this have to do with
    Microworkz?" Latman said when told of the judgments. He said
    the liens still exist because the couple chose not to declare
    bankruptcy.
    "I wear that failure as a badge," he said, referring to the
    failed boutique. "I was involved in counseling her [on the
    business]. The reality is the business was poorly planned and ...
    the business failed."
    When asked to offer prior technology industry experience,
    Latman declined.
    Before founding Microworkz "I was going to write software
    on a boat," he said. "I have written several dramatic plays. My
    goal was to be a writer."
    Got a tip about this story? Write to tipoff@msnbc.com
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 24, 1999 @05:15AM (#1835313)
    [sorry about the AC post]

    It seems to me that the sales rep has described a situation difficult to wriggle out of:

    1) If it is truly a linux/BeOS hybrid (which the rep appears to distinguish from "pure" linux) then there is a violation of the GPL. The sales rep needs an education in the term "derived work".

    2) If what most people have been saying is true - i.e. that it is only BeOS, and they are just using the Linux moniker to be 'buzzword compliant', then what people seem to be missing is that this is a misrepresentation of their product, and an infringement of a registered trademark.

    There is simply -no- way to interpret their marketing without this product, or the marketing thereof, being a legal infringement. It either violates the GPL, or violates Linus' trademark rights. There is no in-between.

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. I am, however, a law student. Take the above with whatever dose of salt you deem appropriate.
  • Anonymous Coward asks:

    Yes, but if you let anyone have the source code, can they not legally distribute it themselves for nothing? (ie. If the cow-orkers[moo-grunt!] got the source, then I'm sure one will run Linux and be smart enough to give it away...)

    Of course they can. The sticking point was how far the distributor is required to go in distributing source; once it is distributed, it can be spread to the four winds.

    It's moot anyway for the moment, since under the GPL they don't have to distribute a single line of source to anyone unless and until they distribute something with GPLed binary or object code.
  • rew asks:

    Hmm. Suppose they never ship a binary. So when the customer recieves the box, you hit "install", and it says "Please wait", crunch, crunch "Done!". In the "crunch crunch" it compiled the modified GLP-ed components....

    That's a tough one. If the place where the box gets the source is generally accessible, there's no problem at all, everyone's happy. If it is not, it violates the spirit of the GPL, but possibly does not violate the letter of the GPL.

    The best argument against such a system is found in Section 3: The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it. Therefore, if the transmission is not in a form that anyone can modify, it is not source code.
  • by Gleef ( 86 ) on Thursday June 24, 1999 @04:49AM (#1835316) Homepage
    luge wrote:

    Not quite... while you are correct about the download issue, source must be available to anyone for whom binaries are available, in the same medium. I.E., if [GPL] binaries are *publicly* available on CDs, [GPL] source must also be *publicly* available on CDs- not just to those who pay for binaries, but also to others in the general public. If binaries are only available to your co-workers or people within your corporation, then you need only make source available within your corporation.

    The GPL [gnu.org] says no such thing. To summarize section 3, you can distribute binaries, provided you either:
    * include source in the distribution
    * include a written offer to send any third party the source in machine readable format for no more than the costs incurred in supplying the source
    * pass on the above written offer from the person whom you got the GPL code from
    It says later in the section that if you get the source by copying it from somewhere, you can "distribute" the source by giving them the same information and access to copy it that you have.

    You do not need to make GPL source publically available, you can limit your distribution to just the people you do business with by shipping the source on the same CD as the binaries. If you do offer to ship source, you have to accept requests from anyone, but you don't need to tell everyone about it, merely the people you ship binaries to. Clearly the easiest way to comply is to make it publically available from a Web or FTP site, but it is by no means a requirement of the GPL.
  • I think that the 'appendix A' IS necessary, as the GPL says you have to tell the user where to get the software.
  • by Erich ( 151 ) on Thursday June 24, 1999 @03:47AM (#1835318) Homepage Journal
    Please, people, let's not flame these people for violating the GPL before we even see the product. It could be that they switched form one pure system to another, or it could be that they've ported GNU software to BeOS -- both of which are legal.

    Don't flame these people, and read the Linux-Advocacy HOWTO.

  • Well, my Mac Classic boots in 14 seconds (all the classics boot _real_ fast w. system 6). Your point is?
  • You obviously don't know the Classics. We are specifically talking a Mac Classic, normal HD, running system 6 without any extensions. It boots in fourteen seconds from flipping the switch to being able to select or launch something in the Finder. You totally don't know Classics very well. They may not be good for much, but every one I've seen boots insanely fast. I think a lot of stuff was simply stuck in ROM, though I haven't inspected the Classic ROM anytime lately.
    Actually, it boots in _thirteen_ seconds from switch to Finder, but I called it fourteen because thirteen was unlucky (you see? it _was_ unlucky! takes it a whole extra second now!)
    My 9500 which is the _serious_ machine (and dualboots linuxppc, of course) takes much much longer to boot, over 30 seconds. So did my old performa 575. Classics are very special in some ways, and they boot up so fast it'd make your head spin- I think if you start giving them system 7 etc. then it slows down, but I'm sorry, I've timed it and you are flat wrong. It _is_ damn near an order of magnitude faster to boot than your G3. What's so wrong about that?
  • It's unlikely that the trademark on the term "Linux" would be enforceable. Linus does not defend the term as required under trademark law (for example, he does not send nasty letters to magazines when they fail to put (r) after using the word Linux).
  • Perl is available under the GPL or the Artistic License, at the option of the user.

    There's nothing wrong with this (unless you view making the GPL virus optional wrong).
  • Posted by EZ E:

    I don't claim any sort of expert status on the GPL, but I once read a statement about the GPL that came with an old version of GCC explaining the intent, written by Richard Stallman.

  • Posted by EZ E:

    (Sorry about premature posting on the last one... damn tab button)
    I don't claim any sort of expert status on the GPL, but I once read a statement about the GPL that came with an old version of GCC explaining the intent, written by Richard Stallman.
    This document made it pretty clear that the intent was only to ensure that code, once GPLed, could not subsequently be removed from the public domain. That is, whatever code you got under GPL, you may not restrict distribution of in any way. This does not exclude (the document explicitly said so!) developing proprietary binaries that use the GPLed code, as long as you only restrict the parts you have added. Stallman explained that this allowed companies to use open source code in proprietary programs without needing to copyright and eat up the existing public domain code.

    Seems to me that Microworkz is allowed to do what they're doing. Was this document wrong or spurious? Has the GPL been changed? Has anyone asked Richard Stallman?
  • Posted by EZ E:

    Easy there firebreather, I made no claim that the GPL was wrong or spurious. My remark that the document (!= GPL) I had read might have been wrong or spurious was intended to prevent precisely the kind of knee-jerk flame that I got back.

    Perhaps I should restate my question in historical terms. Wasn't the GPL written to address the need to make code publicly available without the risk that it would get eaten up and not be publicly available anyway? What is philosophically wrong with someone using open source code in conjunction with proprietary code, as long as they don't restrict what they got? As I (little old me) understand it, the idea of an open source copyright is to protect your freedom to distribute your code, not to prevent others from using it as they see fit, yesno? (Responses -= reflexive flames).

    EE
  • Posted by Forward The Light Brigade:

    nope if you DISTRIBUTE bins
    you have to DISTRIBUTE source
    nothing about changing matters
  • Posted by Ignorant_American_Bastard:

    Mwahahahaha!!!! WEINER!
  • As much as I dislike his GNU/Linux rants...

    If they're referring to anything other than the kernel as Linux, then I think it's time to see if the Linux trademark is still enforcable. Or force them to make a public retraction of their statements about using Linux. (Which would admittedly be one form of enforcing the mark.)
  • I'm not sure exactly how this portion of trademark law works, but is the Linux trademark still enforcable despite the fact that Linus has set relatively relaxed usage terms? (i.e. The terms are lax, but they ARE clear, so any violation of those terms constitutes an enforcable violation of the trademark?)

    Does anyone have a pointer to the status/licensing terms for the Linux trademark?
  • Ok...so we've decided that they probably just used the term Linux to be Buzzword Compliant.

    The next question is ARE THEY???
    There's only one way to find out: The Buzz-Word Counter [sapien.net]

  • by dougman ( 908 ) on Thursday June 24, 1999 @03:55AM (#1835331)
    I was told at the Be booth at PC Expo Tuesday that the iToaster is 100% BeOS with some modifications (custom desktop, etc). I specifically asked if there was any Linux code and was told "No, although marketing has led people to believe that there is (followed by a heavy sigh)".

    I tried the iToaster proto at their booth. It was REALLY, really nice. It DID boot in less than 20 seconds. I would say, the prototype set-top Be demo'ed next to it (kinda going a step beyond into delivery of all kinds of multimedia content channels) really blew me away.

    -DougMan, CEO tomorrowsounds Inc.
    www.tomorrowsounds.com

  • If they use the GNU utils without modifications they aren't violating the license at all. And this has nothing to do with where the programs are available. They may still need to provide source if ask, but they maybe able to just direct people to somewhere the source is already available (I'm not sure about this though). If they actually had to modify the source to build it, then they do need to provide the modified source of GPL'ed code if asked.

    Now if they actually used the linux kernel or parts of it and had to modify it. They do need to provide the source for that. Even if it is never incorperated into the main kernel. Sorry Microworkz(sp?) this is the nature of the GPL.

    If they just used the GNU utilies, they are miss using the linux name. And me thinks I hear RMS starting up some GNU advocacy. Maybe iToaster/GNU. :)

  • GPL'd software can NEVER NEVER NEVER be released as anything but GPL'd software.
    Yes it can. If you own the copyright, you can re-license your copyrighted material under any other license you choose, conflicting with the GPL or not. Licensing your copyrighted works is a step above the GPL; the GPL is just one of the many you could choose. You could choose to distribute only base-64 encoded MIPS executables of GNU Foo if you hold the copyright and declare a new Foo Proprietary License.
    You can not make a proprietary version of the Linux kernel. Period.
    Maybe you or I couldn't, but if all copyright holders of Linux kernel code (every developer with code in the tree) got together and agreed to release their code under an alternate license, persuaded by offerings of large sums of cash or for no reason at all, the new license is good and legal.

    This is very unlikely to happen given the great number of Linux kernel contributors, but it's possible.

    Perhaps you intended to argue that users of software licensed under the GPL can not make proprietary the modifications to said software. This is true if, as you said, the changes are ever published.

  • One never can tell...

    Mediafiles eat up drivespace real easy. Some of are already past our 2G of mp3s...
  • Just get the name Linux on it and people will buy it. Even if they gave out some source code to compile instead of running a binary, Linus only admits into the kernel 1 out of every 1000 hacks he recieves so it would just be a curiosity.
  • I would presume their marketing dept. wanted to say something along the lines of:
    "Uses Linux structures" or
    "Linux compatible"
    or some such nonsense..

  • No, you don't need to include it as part of the package, you simply need to make it available. If I ship a stock version of something, I DIDN'T MAKE ANY CHANGES, I don't have to worry about the GPL, I didn't change it in any way, so the source is already out there. Worst case, an 'Appendix A' in the user manual saying where the sources can be gotten..
  • If they have ported GNU software to BeOS, they still have to make available the source code to their ports, according to the GPL. If they don't do, they'd still be violating the licence whether they mess with the Linux kernel or not.
  • If I were to sell you a computer, and included some GNU software as part of the package, wouldn't I have to include the source to said software as part of the package? That's what Microworkz would have to do to comply with the GPL.
  • by Sourdough ( 1889 ) on Thursday June 24, 1999 @04:29AM (#1835341)
    I highly doubt that any part of the Linux kernel is involved with the iToaster. I'm admittedly not an expert, but BeOS and Linux kernels have *completely* different architechtures. Mixing the two would be all but impossible technically. Also, what would be the benifit? BeOS does a fine job at everything they need. It's perfectly capable of memory management, filsystems, networking, graphics and multimedia. There really is no reason for them to touch Linux if they've got BeOS.
  • ... it's a trademark violation. Calling something Linux when it is not Linux doesn't work. I could just as well make up a new carbonated beverage and call it Pepsi just because everyone knows what a Pepsi is, NOT!
  • Just fiddling with the code to see what happens, usually I just screw things up ;-)

  • >You can not make a proprietary version of the Linux kernel. Period.

    I have already made a proprietary version of the Linux kernel. Period. It is currently running on a box at home. Period. The source is not and will not be made available for download. Period. I have not violated any feature of the GPL. Period.

  • As has been said ad nauseum, we do not yet know if there is a GPL violation. Things to consider:
    • is there, in fact, and GPL'd code?
    • was it modified? If not, then links could be provided to the original source upon request, and the GPL would be intact.
    • if there is GPL'd code, will they be providing source for those GPL'd apps?

    Remember, it's not a violation until we know it's a violation. There may not even be any GPL'd code involved. As someone else pointed out, the people who claim "BeOS/Linx hybrid" are marketing people. Most of them don't know a phone jack from an ethernet port.

    Jumping on this too quickly, and too harshly, could do more harm than good. Even if, when this does come out, a GPL violation is found, remember that it may be accidental -- and respond first with a tactful notice. If the programmers are typical, they will immediately take steps to correct the violation... if not, then legal action might be explored by the community.

    Either way, the community as a whole will get a lot farther using dignity and tact than sending off flame. Think about it: how would you respond to a literal flame? Extinguish it... is that what we want? I thought not.

    Please, please, read the Advocacy HOWTO [unc.edu].

    Posted by the Proteus

  • That's true, I didn't think of trademark issues. Until its actually in users hands there is no way to know what if anything it violates however. If it turns out that they've modified the Linux kernel and won't release the differences, nail them with the GPL. If it turns out that they're not using Linux at all, then worry about trademark issues, most likely by having them substitute Linux with GNU (if what they mean is that they're using GNU command line tools). If it turns out somehow they are a legitimate hybrid of BeOS and Linux then celebrate that somebody has enough faith in the OS to use it in a rather unique way.

    You don't know the full story, so your statement that there is no way that it can't be interpreted as some sort of infringement is not true. It can't be interpreted at all at this point in time. There is nowhere near enough technical information available for us to make an informed decision.
  • by substrate ( 2628 ) on Thursday June 24, 1999 @04:19AM (#1835347)
    Everybody is jumping on the conspiracy theory band wagon. Remember that marketing releases are generated by, well, marketing people. So for instance a statement from engineering such as: The iToaster runs the BeOS operating system and a core system of GPL'd utilities familiar to anybody who has used the Linux operating sytem. The marketing interpretation of the same statement: The iToaster runs a BeOS/Linux hybrid. It makes marketing people warm and fuzzy inside, its fully buzzword complient. It uses the word hybrid and thats a cool word.

    Give the iToaster people the benefit of the doubt. If it turns out that they are violating GPL then voice your righteous indignation, but do it politely. Remember that the Open Source community is trying to gain acceptance. If you're a member of the mob mentality you're just another anchor around the neck of Open Source.

    It's a cheap machine, 300 bucks, I'll buy one. If I find any code derived from Open Source code I'll make it known. I'm sure others will do the same.
  • You only need to make it availble. Under linux the only thing most people want on their machine is the kernel source. Putting it on a cdrom in this day and age is kinda of silly.

    A better aproach is put it on an ftp, and offer to ship someone a cdrom upon request. There is a fair chance that no one ever request it, and if you handle the request right you come out looking like a good guy.

    Besides if I'm going to work on the source I want the latest source not some stale cdrom.

    As for diskless boxen you don't need to ship source with them. There is no code install on them. You'd need to provide source in some way for the server programs if you provide them.

    The gpl is very loose on how you provide the source.
  • Tivo [tivo.com] one of those new MPEG2 recorders like ReplayTV [replaytv.com] uses Linux exclusively, has anyone found out when they are going to be releasing their changes to the Kernel? Paul. ---
  • No, this works via transfer. If Company X makes binaries of GPLed code available on CDs (by selling them, or giving them away), and I get one from them, then they have an obligation to me to make the source code available on my request. If I then lend my CD to you, it is I who then has the obligation to make source available to you on your request, not Company X.
  • by Ray Dassen ( 3291 ) on Thursday June 24, 1999 @03:55AM (#1835351) Homepage
    So the question is when can we download their changes to the Linux kernel?

    The GPL does not require someone using GPLed code to make their changes available for download. The GPL only requires that someone who distributes binaries built from GPLed code to make the source code available to those who received the binaries, upon their request under reasonable terms (only a copying fee).

    Thus, the only way to determine whether there is an actual violation of the GPL in this case is to buy the product and check whether it is accompanied by the source or an offer for the source.

  • Wasn't this thing supposed to run some kind of Linux utilities or something? I find it highly unlikely that they modified the linux kernel to run BeOS or BeOS components... besides being illegal if undistributed, that level of integration would be a waste of time. It probably just runs Be and some ported Linux apps.

    All this is just idle speculation though.

  • My understanding is that it's not meant to be upgradeable at all. In addition to being misreported as a Linux box, it's really a misrepresentation to call the iToaster a normal PC--it's closer to a cross between WebTV and the Canon Cat [hurstad.com] (a really cool piece of hardware partially designed by Mac designer Jef Raskin [apple-history.com]). This is not aimed at the typical Slashdot crowd, or even pretend power users; it's aimed at people who want to be able to surf the net and do "computer-like things" like word processing and spreadsheets, without actually buying a computer.

    As for what they might be taking from Linux, I doubt it's much of anything but buzzwords. Non-tech people know the name Linux and go "ooo" when it's mentioned; Be doesn't have that luxury. There'd be little point in porting X to BeOS for this kind of device.

  • IIRC, wasn't there some hoopla a couple months back that BE was using LILO? Engineering geek says "The BEos is booted up by the Linux Loader" and marketdroid interprets as "BE/Linux hybrid"
  • by aqua ( 3874 ) on Thursday June 24, 1999 @06:08AM (#1835355)

    One other angle -- granted, based on everything else here, plus CNNfn's update, etc., the marketroids were probably mistaken about the extent of Linux' involvement. The toaster product may contain GNU utils in an unmodified state -- no reason not to use them, since POSIX compliance makes it easy to do, and GNU did such a thorough job. All that said, the OSS community in general and the Linux people in particular are on a cusp with commercial adoption, and embedded systems are one of the bigger niches we'd like to delve into. If we give the toaster manufacturer a hard time about violating the GPL before it's confirmed (and that's a long way off, when we can get one and take it apart), we run the risk of scaring off manufacturers, especially since this applies to their most crucial concern -- the GPL.

    The GPL is a hard thing for the established corporations to figure out already; extensive /. flammage, whether factually warranted or not, could tip the (currently precarious) balance in adoption against us. Wait 'till the OSS community disassembles them to see if they've modified any GPL code; if so, we can politely request the code, and go through the proper motions.

  • No more porn for those of you with a better half :-/

    Hmph. If this is the case, consider acquiring a better better half! :-)

  • by Quinn ( 4474 ) on Thursday June 24, 1999 @05:51AM (#1835357) Homepage
    This sounds like an awesome idea, but my old $10 toaster works just fine, and how are they going to deal with the heat, and the crumbs?

    I don't know about you, but if I forget about my pop tarts one morning, I don't want my whole web server going down in flames.

    It had better be secure out of the box, or we'll have a lot of newbies screaming "L3gg0 my 3gg0!"

    Thanks, but no thanks. I think this stuff is getting a bit out of hand.

    --
  • There is no porting involved. The posix complient layer of BeOS is quite passable. It's usually a simple recompile.
  • No, if you sold a computer, you'd have to make the source code "readily available." I believe that the Internet would count for this.
  • could they be referring to gnu utilities? things like bash are on be systems. and there was a port of gimp available, yes?

    if so, it would seem to lend weight to rms's gnu/linux complaint (though i still think it's a silly request).
  • Not quite... while you are correct about the download issue, source must be available to anyone for whom binaries are available, in the same medium. I.E., if binaries are *publicly* available on CDs, source must also be *publicly* available on CDs- not just to those who pay for binaries, but also to others in the general public. If binaries are only available to your co-workers or people within your corporation, then you need only make source available within your corporation.
    ~luge
  • First, absolutely correct about the flaming part- it is my understanding that most POSIX compliant code will compile right out of the box on Be, which would mean that a lot of their backend stuff could be completely standard and available elsewhere.

    However, it would still be nice if a) they released a complete list of GPL programs they use, and b) if they allowed some independent code auditor to assure they had not modified the code in any way. Microworkz has not been known for their wonderful management practices in the past, and this might be another example of their corner cutting. While I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, they should provide a mechanism by which we can check if that trust has been earned or not.

    Second, what about Be? I can't imagine them letting these folks use any of their work without paying some nice licensing fees. This type of box is not going to help the high-end image Be wants to project, so I can't imagine them giving it away (as they promised/threatened to do in exchange for OEM share.) How, then, can Microworkz make it so cheap? Hmm...

    my two cents-
    ~luge

  • Not quite... while you are correct about the download issue, source must be available to anyone for whom binaries are available, in the same medium. I.E., if binaries are *publicly* available on CDs, source must also be *publicly* available on CDs- not just to those who pay for binaries, but also to others in the general public.

    I cannot find anything in the GPL that makes it possible for me to conclude this. If you stick to your claim: Could you please provide some references? The ending paragraph of section 3 could possibly be misremembered as having that effect, but a careful reading show it as an alternative to the options in 3a/3b/3c. That's as close to finding justification as I've been able to come.

    If binaries are only available to your co-workers or people within your corporation, then you need only make source available within your corporation. But - and this is a sticking point - you need to allow the people in your corporation to re-distribute the source all they want. Even bring it with them to their new employer, your competitor. Not useful for anything where you do any significant investment in the code for competitive advantage. Which is the drawback of the GPL - it stops business users from doing most of the thingsthat require an investment (and subsequent payback) with your source base, making all the 'protection' it gives you meaningless.

    Eivind.

  • I am betting that it is BEOS plus the GNU parts of Linux i.e. everything but the kernel. They just threw in the word "Linux" to be buzzword compatible
    If this turns out to be the case, I think we need to retain a roof-repair contractor since RMS will hit it.
    As much as he's been fighting for the prefix "GNU/" whenever someone refers to an operating system with the Linux kernel and GNU components, I can just image the color of his face when someone uses "Linux" to refer to the GNU tools and not the kernel!
    Christopher A. Bohn
  • Actually, Be apps tend to be very very compact. So much so that it'd take me twice as long to download a comparable program on my Mac partition as on the Be side of things.

    It really is a 'clean' OS - it'd be cleaner if they'd get rid of all that X86 cruft, though. :>

    - Darchmare
    - Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
  • don't forget that Gobe Productive, the office suite bundled with it is perfect for this kind of thing. It's also easy to use and takes advantage of the OS's capabilities. Wordperfect is still a port and it's very complicated for beginners. BeOS and Gobe make a good package for the sub $500 market
  • Ah... spoken like a true Anonymous Coward.

    Did you feel as though you had done the Linux/GNU/OSS community a service after writing that email?

  • >I think RMS was Lenin in a past life.

    And in the current one, an asshole? I've had friends who've had to deal with him over code recently...

    Linux may be great kids, but Communism is tired. To say the least.
  • It's moot anyway for the moment, since under the GPL they don't have to distribute a single line of source to anyone unless and until they distribute something with GPLed binary or object code.

    Hmm. Suppose they never ship a binary. So when the customer recieves the box, you hit "install", and it says "Please wait", crunch, crunch "Done!". In the "crunch crunch" it compiled the modified GLP-ed components....

    Roger.

  • 20 seconds is still quite a bit of time to boot. Even my old LinuxPPC machine (PowerMac 4400/200 603ev), can get to Linux Single Mode in like 7 or 8 seconds.

    I can get full services started up in like 18-20 seconds, and get to the log in prompt (of course not using gnome desktop login thingy maginy (great technical language)).

    Then again this machine takes like a minute and a half to boot the Mac OS 8.6, mainly because I have a hell of alot of extentions, and because this machine is like 2 years old.
  • That wouldn't surpise me. I think it's catchy marketing, since many more people know what Linux is, then what GNU is.

    GNU is the set of basic tools that can work with any operating system, as long as you release the source of your tools if you make modifications.

    Speaking of that, doesn't BeOS use some GNU tools with it's core distrobution? I believe GNU bash is included for example. And yes I know the source code of many sample BeOS apps is their, as is many of the headers to the BeOS (but obviously no source).
  • When I first read the title of this article I thought that it was a joke talking about this [segfault.org].

    Well maybe it's just because I really haven't be paying to much attention to Microworkz, I'm just not in the market for something like it.
  • AIUI, If they distributed a product with a Linux kernel, they would have to make the source available for no charge other than handling costs, modified or not. Now, here's where I'm not so sure: is it enough for them just to say "get it from www.kernel.org"?

    But this is all pretty academic anyway, since it looks like this iToaster doesn't run Linux.
  • Just one week after the last award for players in the October embedded contest, the battle rage on. BeOS gets the
    point after the rumor of talks between Microworkz.com and AOL. It may happens that AOL will distribute this device for
    free in exchange to online subscription fees. The small iToaster can take this new market by storm. What else to say...
    Do you know that BeOS is written on C++?

    http://www.ecsl.cs.sunysb.edu/~andrew/awards/199 9/June.html
  • " If you own the copyright, you can re-license your
    copyrighted material under any other license you choose, conflicting
    with the GPL or not."



    THANK YOU!!! I got moderated down (and maybe flamed, I didn't check) for saying almost this.
    I did make the mistake of saying "original author"
    when I menat "copyright holder", but I wasn't wrong.
  • I saw one of these things in the middle of the Be booth @ pcExpo. The boot is all manned by real Be staff, so you should be able to get a decent answer out of them. I didn't play with it much, but it seemed like it was a custom program/interface running on straight Be.

    R4 and R4.5 come with the most all of the GNU Utils, and use GCC as the compiler. That is more likley the part that is "Linux"

  • To some extent, a lawsuit = free advertising. And all they'd have to do if they lost is change the name to, say, Internet Toaster. (Would a fine be likely? How could Apple prove damages?)

    Come to think of it, iToaster also sounds a lot like the Video Toaster of NewTek fame.

    How about iTV instead?

    Jon Acheson
  • The same a what everyone else has been saying. That is, this thing runs BeOS, not Linux. BeOS includes lots of GNU utils in order to run the shell, boot the system, and other bits and pieces. However, this does not make it Linux any more than FreeBSD is Linux.
  • iTV [itvc.com] is taken. In any case, I think that the fruit company in question would have a hard time demonstrating IP rights on a lowercase 'i'.

    Having said which, this is the company who claimed that a trashcan was their symbol...


    --

  • "This is exactly what people have been waiting for," said Rick Latman, Microworkz.com C.E.O., "...And because it's not a Windows environment, it's virtually crash proof."

    That aside, sounds to me a lot like the marketroids are just saying it uses Linux because that is The Next Big Thing(tm) and hoping people won't call them on it.
  • iToaster, scheduled to be available July 15, will not be a``Linux machine'' as people normally use the term, despite earlier published reports to the contrary. Rather, the OS is based partly on BeOS, with its multimedia efficiency,
    and partly on Linux, with its stability and Internet efficiency...

    So basically some people in marketing thought that since Microworkz set this machine up to be stable and to network efficiently, and since Linux is known for stability and network efficiency, that they could say that the system was Linux based. A rather unwise thing to say when a community of supports is willing to pounce on anyone who tries to purloin GPLed code.

  • Hey folks, barely anyone has seen the thing yet. Let the people at least get it out the door before you all kill them. If what most people are saying is correct (that it is just a modified BeOS) the source to all modified GNU utils IS ALREADY available and always was at ftp://ftp.be.com and on the BeOS CD. So, settle down and let a cool product breath a little.
  • So, it looks like we'll have to purchase one of these and find out what it runs.

    If it doesn't look usable, it might be simple enough to reformat the drive and load REAL Linux on it.

    Whichever, it still looks like an interesting system. ("Interesting" in the meaning that Spock might use; I got beat up on this term a month or so ago.)
    --
  • Actually, this is very much in line with Be's current vision - they want to do set-top boxes and similar things.

    Last time I looked, they were giving the OS away to any OEM who wanted to preload it on their PCs (thus the recent rash of announcements). I'm not sure if that extends to the iToaster or not, but I'm sure their fee is very reasonable.

    D

    ----
  • I know the iToaster almost certainly runs Be only, but even if it does run Linux, I think they could legally not provide the source.

    Why?

    Because most likely they don't need to modify the kernel. Think about it - is their hardware not made from fairly standard PC components? Why would they need to modify the kernel?

    D

    ----
  • You are right about the BSD license. That much is true. So, why in hell must you go calling names? If you are right but clueless, it leads one to wonder whether you are right just by chance...
  • Some of the things I'm about to say might strike you as unkind. I'm sorry, but the abysmal cluelessness of your comment almost begs for a reaming. I'll try and be gentle.

    1) The GPL should be included with any piece of GPL'ed software. Go read it again.
    2) Repeat step 1 a few times.
    3) Richard Stallman wrote the GPL. Don't worry about asking him; I'm sure he'll let us know his opinion about this whole mess soon.
    4) GPL'd code IS NOT IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN. Repeat this statement until it sinks in.
    5) You seem to be misinterpreting the GPL with regard to distribution. Inhouse changes to GPL'd code do not need to be distributed, but if the binaries are available to anyone other than yourself ("yourself" in this case might refer to an entity such as a corporation), YOU MUST DISTRIBUTE YOUR CHANGES IN SOURCE FORM TO ANYONE WHO REQUESTS THEM. Clear enough?
    6) The GPL is not wrong or spurious. You are wrong. Go back to step 1 again.

    Nobody really knows what Microworkz has done yet; save your breath until we find out. It might have helped if you had bothered to read other people's comments before posting your own. Keep this in mind for future reference.
  • I think I stated my point fairly concisely, and if you think that my comment was a flame, you've got a lot to learn about /.

    The point of the GPL is not to prevent use of GPL'd software with proprietary software, but to prevent CHANGES to GPL'd software being made proprietary. As I said, if you read earlier comments you would probably have been able to figure that out. If Microworkz made changes to GPL'd code to get it to work on the iToaster without making the changes available in source form, this is a breach of the GPL.

    (Replies += clue)
  • 100% sure there's none used anywhere? Can't be. However, you can't steal much without a risk of being caught.

    First off, if the binaries are identical, or have large stretches of identical bits then they almost certainly have the same source (or some of). At least it's likely enough you could start questioning people in the company under oath.

    Second, if it has identical behavior, it's probably identical code. Especially Bugs. GNU ls had a buffer overflow and printed out all Q's when you did such-and-such, so does this program. again, not proof, but enough to get a judge thinking.

    Certainly if it has 'most all the same features, and works in 'most 'zactly the same way, people will notice THAT and start looking. Hey... funny.... my linux binary just ran fine on AIX... and I'm using undocumented interfaces..

    You could... But is risky. Which will 'least discourage big companies from doing it.

  • If they just use the GNU utilities without modification then they aren't violating the license (I think) since those programs are available elsewhere.

    Well, they also need to state that the software is licensed under the GPL, and provide pointers to where the source is available.
  • The real question here, is why aren't you releasing your source? What did you write? Why are you keeping it to yourself? Huh? huh? huh? Share the code! Whether you've violated the GPL or not, it's not very nice to keep your code to yourself, you're more than happy to use other people's code it seems!


    Jim
  • You can make personal versions and change and never release the source, because you never release the version you make. But if you distribute, all changes must be pub.
  • If, as other posters have pointed out, Microworkz marketing made reference to Linux in the sense that "our product is really stable and has great networking capabilities", then that's great! It means that some really well-done Linux advocacy has been going on. Would you prefer them to say "combines the UI of Be with the unstoppable power of Windows NT"? I didn't think so.

    I'll admit that they could have gone about their advertising a little better. It's confusing to say that the iToaster includes Linux but doesn't come with the source, and even worse when we find out that the product doesn't include Linux but uses the Linux(tm) trademark in their advertising anyway. Now if they had quoted a reviewer who said "it's solid just like Linux" then that would be OK. I guess their marketing department didn't run this by the legal department on its way out the door.

    All in all, there are worst things that could happen than Linux becoming the generic term for small, stable, networkable operating systems.

  • by Fizgig ( 16368 )
    That's not the legal hoop I'm wondering about. I'm wondering how they plan on bringing an Internet appliance to market with a name beginning with a lowercase i and followed by the capitalized name without getting in some trouble with the legal department of a certain multi-billion dollar fruit company.
  • But Linux(R) is not a buzzword, it's a trademark. Trademark dilution in this case is not a good thing, for many reasons. Here's two:

    Somebody buys an iToaster because it's "Linux buzzword compliant", takes it home, sets it up, and discovers it doesn't run his Linux apps, because it isn't really Linux.

    or worse:

    Because of trademark dilution, anybody can call anything Linux. Microsoft releases their next version of NT as "Microsoft Linux". Linux gets a rep as a crashy OS because of this (plus the problems of brand confusion as above.)

    If the iToaster really contains no Linux then Microjerkz should get a very nice letter from a law firm on the behalf of Linus (the trademark owner), to cease and desist and issue a retraction at least as prominently as the initial announcment. Maybe the marketdroids really didn't know that Linux was a trademark. But they need to be formally reminded that it is.

    (If it does contain Linux, then they have the GPL problem.)
  • Well, I'm happy for the Be guys. I wonder how much Microwerkz pays for each copy of the OS + Gobe.
    More to the point, it would be really cool if we could get linux into this kind of box (yes, I know there's a small set-top company using it, but there are a million set tops that run everything, we'll see which one wins).
    Linux has three key problems in this department. The first is boot time. Anybody know of projects to build an insta-boot linux for embedded devices?
    The second, the lack of a journalled file system, has been beaten to death. Consumers just want to be able to flick it on and flick it off. We'll see how ext3 does, but I wouldn't be surprised if it took a splinter filesystem to work with small consumer devices. They have such different needs from enterprise servers that they shouldn't necessarily have the same features.
    The final kicker is XF86. Great software in many ways, and everything I've heard about 4.0 sounds incredible, but it's not small. Anybody have an update on some of the attempts to create a micro-sized graphics system (GGI and Berlin? I can't really remember). . .
    --JZ
  • Yeah, I was one of the people who submitted a link about this dual Linux/BeOS stuff.

    However, then I read this story on ars [ars-technica.com] which confirms what other people have been saying: it just runs Be.

  • There's something in the description that's kind of interesting. It says that it has a built-in capability to restrict access to websites (for kids and other obnoxious family members) AND (and this is what got me) there will be a webpage set up where parents can view what websites their kids visited.
    I wonder if they mean they will set it up so you can view your browser history on your local machine or if they will make this gadget report to their servers about what you've been up to. In other words: No more porn for those of you with a better half :-/
    This kinda bothers me, I would personally hate to have all the websites I visited logged on a remote system which might be accessible to (Insert name of curious person here). My boss wouldn't be happy if he would get a report on how much time I spent on slashdot ;-)

    Message on our company Intranet:
    "You have a sticker in your private area"
  • This is one problem I see with GPL, I mean not with GPL itself but with making GPL work. how can one be shure that GPL is being respected by propietary software houses?

    What I mean is if I am a company, I could simply get linux code on the web alter it and then release my proprietary software. If I don't fall in the mistake of telling people I used linux in the first place how would people would know to file a law-suite?

    And I used 'linux' in my example but it could be any program at all, just do "s/linux/xxxx/" and there you are.

    And this could be happening right now, how can one be 100% shure that window, OS/2, AIX or any other OS don't have some part of the linux or other GPL code hidden inside it? We don't have access to source code of those system. And how about word, excel, word-perfect and etc...?

    Right now many programs could be violating the GPL and we will never know that they are. It's near impossible, if not impossible, to discover that some program used some code within it, without the access to the code itself. And even if you have access to the code, this could be very hard as there are many forms of obscuring code (mainly C).

    --
    "take the red pill and you stay in wonderland and I'll show you how deep the rabitt hole goes"
  • I came up with this in a discussion on BeOSCentral, and I was proud enough to want
    to share it around a little more. Someone posted the following poem by
    Thomas Disch:

    Lives there a man with soul so dead
    He's never to his toaster said:
    "You are my friend; I see in you
    An object sturdy, staunch, and true;
    A fellow mettlesome and trim;
    A brightness that the years can't dim."?
    Then let us praise the brave appliance
    In which we place this just reliance.
    And offer it with each fresh slice
    Such words of friendship and advice
    As "How are things with you tonight?"
    Or "Not too dark but not too light."


    it inspired me to create my own topical followup:


    But now my friendly old appliance
    Will not maintain his trusty silence.
    Instead, although it makes me sad,
    He showers me with banner ads.
    His days of toasting bread are past;
    He wants me to Make Money Fast.
    He once was satisfied enough in
    Browning up my english muffin
    But now he fills my mail with spamsters!
    He wants to show me dancing hamsters!
    That is my tale, though it's depressin'.
    To others let it be a lesson.
    The dangers only now I see
    Of Toaster TCP/IP.

  • a) they released a complete list of GPL programs they use, and b) if they allowed some independent code auditor to assure they had not modified the code in any way.

    No auditor is needed. If they're using shipping GPL code in the toaster, and they're shipping the toaster, they have to ship the source (or let you know where to get it).

    I once worked for a company that played with the concept of shipping diskless Linux boxen connected to a server. We figured we had to ship a Linux source CD with each box to meet GPL requirements. The fact that we expected our customer base to use them as coffee coasters was entirely beside the point...

  • Agreed. In most cases, the law is supposed to be the last resort, not the first. A civilized solution is likely to work and will be less expensive than a civil solution.

    If the iToaster has no Linux within it, and they stated that it does, then we (and especially Linus) should write to their marketing (not legal) department, noting the problem and asking them to retract the word "Linux". A smart, professional marketing department will at least stop using the word "Linux", if not post an apology and a retraction. It saves them a lot of face to handle the situation that way, and marketing is all about face.

    If this doesn't work, the next step is to send a similar message to their legal department. A smart, professional lawyer will realize that it is a lot cheaper to retract the statement then to go to court over it--corporate lawyers are hired to keep their clients out of court.

    If these first two steps don't work, then you have to bring in the lawyers and sue for trademark infringement. This is the last resort, and the expensive solution. You likely won't get here, unless the company is being nonprofessional and deserves to be shown up in court anyhow.

  • While your letter was *very* informative, you forgot some minor details. When you criticize people, you should provide a way to correct their mistake. In this letter you should have included a list of URLs to assist them if they _hadn't_ heard of GPL. www.gnu.org would have been a good place to start.

    You on the other hand should probably read the Linux advocacy mini-HOWTO [datasync.com]. Then you should write a polite letter apologizing for your immature behavior. I suggest that the fellow Slashdot readers also write a short, carefully worded e-mail to to Microworkz and the misinformed news agencies.

    Remember, it's easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar.

I had the rare misfortune of being one of the first people to try and implement a PL/1 compiler. -- T. Cheatham

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