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AntiOnline Accuses, Attrition.org Responds 79

Posted by Roblimo from the another-endless-battle dept.
borehawg writes "John Vranesevich of AntiOnline is accusing Attrition.org staff members of being involved with the "hacker" groups called "United Loan Gunmen" (ULG) and "Hacking For Girlies" (HFG). Attrition.org responds with this press statement. "
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AntiOnline Accuses, Attrition.org Responds More

AntiOnline Accuses, Attrition.org Responds

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  • Is there any real proof out there? I recall something about hacker groups rating each other out not to long ago. Seems like some kids need to grow up.
  • john phrenesdlploovic needs to grow up...that whole thing with him firing off a letter to harvard admins and now he's trying another stunt.wonder if he's going to block traffic redirected from /. this time?
  • This guy, John Knuckleface, is constantly trying to cause problems for anybody other than John Knuckleface. His claims are never founded in truth, and his accusations are merely thinly veiled attempts to get his name in the press.

  • AntiOnline, At It Again (Score:5)

    by Coda ( 22101 ) on Thursday September 16, 1999 @05:47PM (#1677918) Homepage
    This has to be AntiOnline's most blatant attack against their enemies yet. Their accusation relies on two unproved points: 1.) HFG == ULG This looks shabby, since the two pages are totally dissimilar, and even if they were the same it wouldn't *prove* anything. 2.) HFG == Attrition Again, totally unfounded. Attrition supplies actually documentation with their assertions, making them much more credible. JP has yet to do anything but slander. I think JP's really reaching on this one. His web page, which could be a real source of news for the underground, is instead being used to throw his vitriol. To the people who are saying "kids will be kids": we're talking about the potential ruining of careers, not slanging matches between gangs of kids. JP is in a position of power, and he's abusing that. He's the underground contact of the uninformed, and as such he can say pretty much anything with impunity. I personally think the guys at Attrition should pursue legal action.
  • before they start reacting to JV's blatherskyte? This press release is a good first step, but clearly JV has crossed the line again and again. It angers me when decent groups get attacked baselessly like this, and have to clean up as well as they can (but of course the damage is done)- is there nothing we can do about it?
  • Using concepts developed under its "Virtual Fingerprinting System", AntiOnline has taken data from the recent United Loan Gunman hacks, and compared it to data in its extensive databases of over 6,700 individual hackers. The results?
    Wow, what a system! A "Virtual Fingerprinting System" that magically discovers that any high profile negative thing was done by *gasp* someone they don't like!

    This is pathetic. A sad little man trying to be a cross between Barnum & McCarthy.

  • More AntiOnline Bunkum (Score:3)

    by Joel Rowbottom ( 89350 ) on Thursday September 16, 1999 @06:06PM (#1677921) Homepage
    This doesn't surprise me - John Vranesevich is yet another self-proclaimed "Internet security expert" who airs his opinions to anyone who will listen and has a blatant disregard for netiquette and common sense. One of a few individuals who seem intent on spoiling it for everyone else, and using lawyers and legalese to wriggle out of their little holes. Maybe he should just go and shack up with Carolyn Meinel, James Winsoar, and the rest of them.

    I can think of better ways to use time than to piss off HNN, Slashdot, Attrition, etc. - some of us argue that they actually do a bloody good job. Before this came out, I did recall seeing a few days ago on Hacker News Network [hackernews.com] some stuff about the two groups being completely dissimilar: I'm wondering if this has been going on for a week or so and it just hasn't surfaced.

    Joel.

  • Bad script kiddies! Go stand in the corner! (Score:4)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 16, 1999 @06:25PM (#1677924)
    SCENE 1:

    That's IT Johnie, give me your portscanner! I'm putting it away, and you can't have it back until you and Timmy learn to get along without fighting and calling each other names! You can just have a TIME OUT until you learn your lesson! And then go and wash up for dinner like a good little boy!

    (Oh, what's wrong with kids these days -- I thought he might start playing nicer with the other children after he graduated from college and all, but he's just as bad as ever)

    SCENE 2, NEARBY:

    Timmy!! You bad boy! Do you want a spanking? No? Well, in that case... absolutely NO smurf attacks or SYN flooding for a WEEK! Don't roll your eyes like that! Stand up straight! Don't talk back to me! Go to your room!

    (Sigh... kids these days. They say thay learn to behave after they hit 20, but sadly, I think they're wrong about that)

  • Time for the lawyers (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 16, 1999 @07:06PM (#1677925)
    Well its time to teach someone a lesson that libel is a serious crime. I know I dont like lawyers any more than the next geek, but when someone is printing such potentially ingurious falsehoods something needs to be done. Apparentally Johnny doesnt care who is hurt by his unfounded allegations. It would be nicer if he felt some moral duty to verify his claims before he makes them. The sad thing is his claims are clearly laughable by anyone who has any understanding of image making or web authoring etc, but its just the sort of dribble that the media love. It should not go unchallenged just because we can all see through it. It needs to be challenged and shown to the media how laughable it is, so they dont trash someones career.

  • expose of Vranesevich (Score:5)

    by paul.dunne ( 5922 ) on Thursday September 16, 1999 @07:29PM (#1677926)
    This was posted on the CyberWire Dispatch; don't know of an archive for this, so I've put it here [linuxstart.com]. I think this piece says all that needs to be said. Like any spoilt child, if Vranesevich was just ignored, he would shut up.
  • Surely, by this 'Virtual Fingrprinting System' I must be a secret (so secret even I didn't know) member of ULG. Based on the following facts:-
    1. I Have at some time or another created graphical images displayed on a web-page. Obviously showing that I, like ULG & HFG, create images in a similar way .. with a grphics package..
    2. I have used both Unix and NT. Obviously showing similar patterns in OS usage. .
    3. Most damning of all .. I frequently use 'freehand' HTML!
    OK, none of my work has ever appeared on any of ULG's cracks bit it's damning evidence, I'm sure you you must agree, so I'm off now to hand myself into the authorities.

    C'mon, If he's gonna make accusations that HFG==ULG, he should have better evidence than this!!

  • JP doesn't know when to quit. (Score:5)

    by flamingdog ( 16938 ) on Thursday September 16, 1999 @07:54PM (#1677928) Homepage
    He is such an uptight little kid. Once upon a time, I wrote a script that spammed his hack attempts database. I sent it out to a few people who faithfully ran it. When he finally disabled it, I got an email from him taunting me and how he was keeping logs of me for future use.

    I swear he is the national enquirer of the internet. The time when he put up that "Eye on the underground" thing, and someone on a webboard he was "monitoring" inserted a little bit of code, he instantly blamed the webboard owners. Not only that, but he put out a press release stating something along the lines of "AntiOnline.com was not hacked. What happened is one of the owners of a service we monitor decided to change his content..." He faithfully declared this as the gospel truth.

    I swear, he will do anything for a little more press recognition. He is the ultimate media whore.

    Every time he gets in one of his pointless flame wars, he uses every possible media outlet as a means of trying to humiliate his adversaries. I saw during the last little bout, he used not only all 7 of his domains, but the happyhacker site, the happyhacker mailing lists, several other that he controls, and every time he was interviewed in that time, he mentioned it.

    Not to mention, he considers himself so computer savvy, but when I got that email from him, guess what the client was...yup...Outlook Express.

    Wow, I amazed myself by criticizing him without saying "crack baby media whore"

    ---------------------------
    "I'm not gonna say anything inspirational, I'm just gonna fucking swear a lot"
  • Excellent,

    All these kids need is attention. You take that away and they would go off to play some quake instead. But seriously, libel is a serious crime. I would really like to see this person brought before a judge (Even though the flaming was between two shady groups).
    --
  • I just sent this to JP.
    I don't suppose he'll care though.
    --

    This is the funniest thing I've read in a while.
    You are so high and mighty over what?? A few websites that got hacked!

    I don't have anything against you, but your article is laughable. Your "Virtual Fingerprinting System"? Care to explain what exactly that is?
    From your article it appears to be nothing more than grep, cat and diff.

    The thing I find most amusing though is again your high and mighty attitude. As if what you're reporting _Really Actually Matters_ to anyone bar a few nerdy computer types. I freely admit to being a nerdy computer type myself. So a few websites got hacked. Did anyone die? No. Did anyone get hurt? No. A few bruised egos aside.

    Anyway, I'd be *most* interested to see you respond in public to Attrition.org's response to your article.
    *If* what they're saying is true you sure have a lot of egg on your face.
    I personally don't have an opinion either way. It seems you're both trying to take yourselves so seriously that you can't see how totally irrelevant to anything this is.
    *Catch* the hackers with some solid evidence. That'd actually be something then. As opposed to grep and diff on a few files.

    Tim Harman

  • look at it from the perspective of a non-techie (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 16, 1999 @08:58PM (#1677931)
    Try to look at the actions of antionline.com from the point of view someone not familiar with technology has (to get an idea about the readers, who believe the stuff written there, look at the awards the site displays).
    The ./ readers (meant to include all with at least a basic knowledge of how the net works), are no more the majority amomg the people using services the net offers. There's so many J. Does out there by now, who like their point&click-apps, that allow them to get a stock quote, to send e-mail to a friend across half the globe in a second. And they are easy victims to things like antionline.com, in electronic form or not. They represent the "public opinion", they also are considered experts among their family, their friends. They might never know, that antionline's theories are, at least, controversial.
    Disclaimer: yes, I did simplify matters. On purpose.
    fl [mailto]
  • It's sad to see someone in a position of such power to abuse it the way JV does. I read both sides of the story from an unbiased view, and in my eyes, Attrition.org wins this one hands down. JV's argument is baseless - his "evidence" is weak at best. But the really sad thing is that this isn't just children fighting - there's a very real possibility that people are going to be hurt in this war of words.
  • JP's actions remind me an awful lot of church leaders and witch hunts[or mccarthyism as was pointed out earlier]. Preying on the ignorance of the masses. Good strategy. Worked for the church.
    The answer?
    Ellucidation of the masses!

  • Someone should take a clue-by-four to this idiot. I think he has seen "Hackers" once too often (arguably, once is once too often, but hey), and should switch to decaf.. At the very least he could visit the Jargon File [tuxedo.org] and look up a few other interesting terms (like, hacker, perhaps?). Most of us really don't have the inclination to spend most of our free time just cracking into Web sites. *yawn*

  • I agree with you.

    The problem are not people like "us" who read that and get a good laugh out of it, but people who have no clue about anything.

    The fall for his Prosa and "insight" and take it for real.

    He will never ever convince anybody who knows at least a tiny bit about computers, but the masses will definetly take it for real, and they won't go to "bad" sides like Attrition.org.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Michael

  • Stupid school (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I know that this is off topic, but I am in my school's library and these losers won't let me read the artical cuz the proxy reports it as a page dealing with crime. Therefore I cannot read it. Are there any mirrors?

  • HFG - ATTRITION link NOT WITHOUT MERIT! (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    While AntiOnline isn't very credible.. and JP is a moron. To use that fact to disprove their claims (a claim which has been echoed by much of the hacker underground) is a straw man fallacy.

    The truth is, Brian Martin (Attrition.Org operator) is an FBI suspect in the HFG case. He is innocent until proven guilty. BUT this fact does make JP's claims NON-libelous. Not only that, it is EXTREMELY likely that Brian Martin in fact IS HFG. It's pretty much common knowledge among most hackers in his scene. Brian Martin is also good friends with the Forbes reporter who did an exclusive interview with HFG, coincidence? maybe. Suspicious? VERY.

    To those familiar with webpage hacks, there are striking similarities that set the ULG and HFG hacks apart from all the rest. And indeed, Attrition is heavily linked to the ULG case, just search the Associated Press in the last 2 weeks for the word "Attrition"
  • Rob did it!!!

    Bored with the unchallenging and non-time-consuming tasks of admining slashdot, Rob Malda took to a life of seedy internet hangouts and irc-addict script kiddies as a way to relieve the boredom of daily life and increase his page hits.

    Trust me. I profiled him. I know it. See??? He has a web page, and graphics, and is online lots. He did it. Really.

    That's all the proof you get today.


  • What's the damn point in having a "favourite programming language" in this? Or why do we have "favourite communications board" and "favourite game"? For that matter, why not include "favourite emulator" or "favourite man page viewer" as well???

    The only reasonable purpose I could see behind an award set like this would be to give merit to people or groups or ideas that contribute to the causes of the Linux community. For example, I would see the point of giving out awards for "most original software", or "most effective project management", or for "most needed new software", or for "most valuable service to the community".. you get the drift.. The LJ awards merely collect some loosely dependable measure of popularity among arbitrary sets of tools for an arbitrary set of themes.

    Nick Moraitakis

  • Ooops, I apologize for my error. I accidentally submitted this to the wrong story.. it was meant for LJ awards.

    Nick Moraitakis

  • *sigh* (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Remember when you were a kid, and you'd be sitting in the back seat of mom's station wagon, and your brother would hit you, so you'd hit him back? And as soon as mom said "Whats going on back there?" you both immediately say "HE STARTED IT!"?

    This is just like that, and frankly the maturity of both sides seems to be microscopic to non-existant.

    -Dave db@(nospam)amorphous.org
  • Also keep in mind that Carolyn Meinel and JP himself are under suspicion for HFG's NYT hack...
  • Can we say tedious?

    With me now, people: T-D-OUS!!
    Can I get an a-MEN from you now!!

    Seriously though, this Anti Online thing is such a gas, but is becoming such a bore.

    John How-ever-you-spell-it has a site which is also a business. When you are a business the idea is to make money, and make money well. OK, now, how to make money in the computer/internet security arena? Two simple ways; get those people with the bucks to back you and lose the competition.

    Q) How do you get those with the big bucks, when corporate America is scared out of it's Armani suits by even the word "Hacker"?

    A) First, start offering your information and special privileges to those with some of the biggest budgets (i.e. .gov, .mil, anyone who can spend $150 for a hammer) and make yourself look as good as you can. And nothing perks up the American public's ears like patriotism.
    With Anti Online only offering it's information database to .gov or .mil or whatever, it makes them look very good in the eye's of the public (they are helping our government fight back against those cyber terrorists) and in the eye's of investors.

    Q) How do you lose the competition?

    A) Look at what has been going on. Any site which offers the same or similar information is being systematically hunted and if possible, eventually, killed. I mean, I'm willing to bet that much of the texts and exploits found at Attrition.org are the same as what is found at Anti Online (although I'm sure that the picture of the guy who hunted Santa ain't there! Nearly busted a gut on that :) . But those naughty boys and girls at Attrition.org are offering this information to anyone while Anti Online only offers the information to people who would never ever ever ever think of using that information illegally.

    Now, I may be off here by miles, but if I wanted to make money from information the best way to do that is to sell that information. So I start off giving the information out to a select few for free, then when there is no one else (or no one else who is any good) offering the same information I start selling it to those who are willing to pay. And if you are the only game in town, well, you charge what you like.

    In all honesty, I have nothing against John or Anti Online per se. As a matter of fact, that site and it's "guide to mostly harmless hacking" were where I got my feet wet with Linux and the inner workings of computers. It was with that sites information that I made my current choice of Linux flavor, Debian.
    But his actions over the last six months have really begun to bug the hell out of me, and to make his motives suspect.

    Whatever his rational, IMO he would be much better off just sticking to being an information repository (open to everyone, I might add) and being an information portal. Leave the cracker chasing to the feds, and leave the competition alone.

    Actually, if I were the owner of Attrition, I'd do one plain and simple thing. Just say "John, you and me, in a ring, no gloves, no ref. Whoever is left standing keeps the site up, whoever is knocked out pulls the site". But then again I am a barbarian, so I'll just drag my knuckles to the kitchen for a beer and shut up.




  • I checked that link [linuxstart.com]. I don't think anyone here could say what needs to be said any better than that correspondant.

    Well, plus suing his dumb *ss.

    My .02
    Quux26 > Lazlo

    My .02
    Quux26
  • Yeah, useful like shutting up or not breathing.
  • It occurs to me that a good project for someone with too much time on their hand s would be to write up a Vrasonevitch version of the inimitable Microsoft Windows Rules the Universe [freeyellow.com]
  • Belgians?! omigod it was Phaid!
  • Is it just me, or are both of these groups (anti-online and attrition.org) complete idiots?

    What's the point of saying this group did this or this group did that? Who really cares? Why not just say the site was hacked and not give the groups any attention at all?

    It's only because of sites like these that claim to have the eyes of important people and that will report on crap like this that these hacks are perpetrated at all. You cannot tell me that someone would go out of their way to hack some site and muck with the web page (which is very stupid anyway), if they knew no-one would report on it.

    Argh.. the sheer stupidity of it all.


    ---

  • Actually, this situation is more like the grown-up attrition.org being constantly pestered by the juvenile Vranesevich.

    I'm just wondering why noone's taken AntiOnline to court yet. Perhaps they're just giving Vranesevich enough rope so they can be sure of stomping him into the ground for once and for all.

    D.
    ..is for Dangerous.

  • Is it me, or does John V. need to get put over someone's grandparents knee and smacked until he can't sit for 3 weeks?!! This child did the same crap with Harvard.
    Anyway, just my $.02
  • If this reminds you of church leaders and witch hunts then you take petty arguments over pretty insignificant hacks way too serious. Wise up. It's more like a bunch of kids arguing over a lollipop.

    Since when can 'arguing over a lollipop' endager your future career opportunites? There are a LOT of high tech places that won't hire you if a background check turns up anything suspicious or the least bit incriminating. If people believe what John Heylookatme (or whatever) is saying then some of those people could have their careers jeopardized. No one should be taking this slander lightly. If he had kept it to a private forum then it could be excused, but when you start broadcasting fals and damaging information across a public medium then you have passed the realm of 'petty argument' and stepped into the arena of libel and slander.

    Kintanon

  • Re:I wish these people would grow up (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I am. I just wish /. would stop posting stories about them.
  • I have a "Virtual Assholeprinting System" and John keeps on showing up in it.

  • "grep, cat and diff" Did you really have to teach him how to do it?

  • Me thinks you have missed the point, it's called playing with words. United Loan is a bank, United Loan Gunmen sounds like bank robbers. United sounds like a group acting as one, lone (assume) means individual, gunmen refers to a group. Lone gunmen is a reference to the individual convicted of JF Kennedy's assasination (and the possible conspiracies surrounding that). There maybe a few other iterations there I've missed. Pretty neat name, though I have no idea what their mission is.

    Playing with words is a trate in the Hacker community (as it is with people of intelligence). It's even more fun when a possible translation is a contradiction of itself!

  • Hey, if half of what I hear of the naughtiness of AntiOnline is true, someone needs to walk over and smack him around until he backs off.. ye gads, someone needs to hit him with a slander/libel (whichever is appropriate) suit and make one of the demands that he shut down his site!

    Geez.. someone wouldn't get away forever with this in the real world (say, if he was/worked for a newspaper), why should they get away with it in 'cyberspace' (argh! buzzword alert!)

    shouldn't slander/libel with harmful intent be against some 'cyberlaw' (argh! again! NOOO!) and therefore be punishable somehow?

    personally, I wouldn't shed a single tear if antionline suddenly had its servers raped..

    of course that would likely be a Bad Thing, being against the 'cyberlaws' (DOH! again!)...

    Does the ends justify the means? *insert philosophical discussion here*


  • It's important for attrition.org to respond the
    way they did otherwise they would be assumed guilty(sad but true).
    This isn't just about kids calling kids names.
    People at attrition.org could have their actual
    lives affected(i.e. careers).
    We should all care when any news organization
    makes claims that are completely unfounded.
    To the uninitiated AntiOnline has much more
    credibility(again sad but true). As such when
    they say things about the 'computer underground'
    the uninitiated listen.
  • I agree that this super secret trade secret BS is weak at best. But he does have a point, if you look at the various parts you can trace similarities or differences and begin to draw conclusions (maybe assumptions would be a better word). The problem with this is that hackers tend to be a paranoid bunch (both the white hats and the black hats). If I were to attack sites on the net I would try not to do it the same way each time. Or I would modify the information (such as the strings in an image) and leave false clues to lead to false conclusions (assumptions). I would also use as much generic material as possible. Maybe use images gathered off the net form other sites and modify them, uhmm like using the DEFCON6 logo modified. John's system is weak and can be easily defeated with a bit of thought. Besides aren't profiles built by people who understand psychology and police work.
  • Anonymous Coward huh? I would think you guys at Antionline would at least have a /. login.

    First - the FBI NEVER identifies suspects in on-going criminal investigations. It's as likely they talked to him to get intelligent insights into the current hacker community for their investigation. Second "EXTREMELY LIKELY"? on what grounds, your own personal crystal ball?

    One thing JP has gaurenteed, no one at AntiOnline or any of its' spawn will ever be taken seriously in the public policy debate over security and cyber-crime, and those that do use them will discredit their own positions.
  • I glean nothing useful from either one, however, I will say that many of the Chinese articles that appear on Antionline are interesting reading. Wisdom from the country as far as ULG and Attrition: If a walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and happens to do everything that a duck did before it most likely is. Too many similarities in both cases and I do think we will find out it was Attrition or someone who has associated themselves with that staff who hacked the sites. Thinking someone needed some extra hits this month from a site "exclusive". BTW Cant get into Antionline right now seems like somebody has attacked an up bandwith channel from Antionline. Nobody has still hacked the page.

    Hangtime

  • What's with this new finger-pointing bullshit? (Score:3)

    by Pasty Drone ( 8425 ) on Friday September 17, 1999 @02:14AM (#1677969) Homepage
    This comment was originally on NewsTrolls Threads Board [newstrolls.com]

    My opine on this is ULG is doing some important work...their hacks demonstrate visibly that major commerce sites and government is unsecured and IT IS A VALUABLE SERVICE they are doing by showing to the public these flaws. Wouldn't you WANT to know if Nasdaq was unsecured? I sure as shit would!

    JP is a total flak so I'm not even thinking about him, but I am disturbed by this new trend in security sites to NAME the people involved in groups or to prove the groups' existances. What the hell is that? Are people ratting on each other to earn gold stars with the Feds?

    I see hacking as 1. a public service and 2. art. (Stealing is different and I don't condone that)

    So whoever ULG is-- who cares? What's important is that their voices are heard.

    My 2 cents...

    New stuff: I'll also add that Brian and all of Attrition provide one of the most valuable services in security news in that they analyze journalists' articles and point out the mistakes and mis-information; in other words, they find the "bugs" in the reporting...this service is INCREDIBLY valuable and needed as most writers don't know anything about the underground and so sometimes rely on total flaks like JP or Clown Princess for information, which in turn makes them look bad. So Attrition is really SAVING a lot of writers' asses from looking like total fools and they should be thanked for that.
    And for all you admins/security/Feds reading these posts, if you've never read Attrition, start doing so now. You owe yourself and your bosses the education.

    --diva

  • Many of them are or may be working as security consultants full-time. The fact they post or run web sites doesn't make them black-hat nor does it mean that they are engaged in criminal activities. John Vranesevich or whatever his name is has repeatedly gone on crusades against "competing" security sites. The end result is not just a couple of 15 year old kids getting in trouble with their parents, it is the ruin of people's careers. John is, for some idiot reason, regarded as a "trusted" security expert (apparently). This puts him in a position of some responsibility. This is not a tedious argument between haxxors but an attempt to ruin the careers of others. gid-foo
  • If the media would quit giving so much credence and attention to packet kiddies and their l33t IRC hax0rZ groups, quite a lot of them would no longer have any reason to continue.

    By constantly reporting on each "terf battle" that goes on between these groups of adolescents, the media is only *encouraging* them and other groups to do things that could merit media attention.

  • I wonder what would happen if next time one of these elite haxxor dudes hacks into a website, they tried to impersonate JP? Like, you know, they would put VP's "fingerprints" all over the place. Things like web design and graphics style are extremely easy to imitate. Admittedly, JP's sloppy pseudo-educated English is a bit harder to mimic, but that shouldn't be too difficult either.

    Yeah, and don't forget to put all those award banners his site earned at the bottom of the hacked page!

    What do you guys think?

  • If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and acts like a duck, it is most likely a duck.

    But to continue with the flawed metaphor, how can you tell two ducks apart? How can you tell that two piles of duck shit came from the same duck?

    Also, AntiOnline covers far more "hacker groups" than Attrition. Why wouldn't AntiOnline hack a few sites to stir up something on a slow news day?

    So, besides being a shill for AntiOnline, what do you do in your spare time?
  • Using concepts developed under my "Virtual Fart Blame Assignment System" (widely know as "whoever smelt it dealt it"), and adapted to digial new media, timestamps from the several AntiOnline articles were compared to those of other website vandalism reporting organizations. Dubbed "digital fartprinting" in hacker circles, this technique clearly shows that on several occasions, AntiOnline had clearly smelt it first. I therefore conclude that the operators of AntiOnline are the perpetrators of several high profile acts of vandalism.
  • Give me a break John. You're not in high school anymore. Stop pointing fingers at other people and concentrate on making AntiOnline a site I would consider visiting some day.

    Grow up.
  • OTOH, if I was to hack a web site and wanted to give an interview and really _did_ know something more about cracking than jo schmoe script kiddie (I'm not saying that this imaginary individual isn't a script kiddy, just a little higher on the totem pole) I think I'd steer clear of an obvious script kiddy hangout and try to "impress" somebody that does know what they're talking about. So, no I wouldn't give an interview to AntiOnline, I'd be more tempted to give it to HNN or Attrition. Just my thoughts
  • No kidding! Sheesh...the media gives crackers more attention than gangs, it's no wonder that there are so many web pages being defaced. How often do you hear of a system being cracked, backdoored and left undiscovered for months, but having NO "real" (visible) damage done to it? Never, that doesn't show up in the news, a visible "hack" does.
  • "By accessing AntiOnline you agree to abide by the following terms and conditions."

    NEITHER ANTIONLINE NOR THE INFORMATION PROVIDERS IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY ERRORS OR OMISSIONS. ALL THE INFORMATION, CODE AND/OR EXECUTABLES PROVIDED ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND. ANTIONLINE AND THE INFORMATION PROVIDERS MAKE NO REPRESENTATIONS AND DISCLAIM ALL EXPRESS, IMPLIED, AND STATUTORY WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND TO THE USER AND/OR ANY THIRD PARTY INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, WARRANTIES AS TO ACCURACY, TIMELINESS, COMPLETENESS, MERCHANTABILITY, OR FITNESS FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE. </snip>

  • Yet another view (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I won't go into much detail about who I am, but I have had very close relations with both JP of AntiOnline and Jericho (Brian) of Attrition. There is really no way to go on this, but as far away from JP as possible.

    For a while, I had very good relations with JP through the HappyHacker wargames, which AntiOnline played a very small role in. I even helped moderate some items on AntiOnline' site in a secuity forum and was going to be writing some security articles for them.

    I came to know JP through the HappyHacker wargames, and as I grew to know him more, I found out how much of a back-stabbing person he really is. It seems like he logs almost every conversation, both public and private that he takes place in or listens to. With me, he lost absolutely any bit of trust I had in him. Everyone else that I know that was in anyway related to AntiOnline and JP feels the same.

    JP acts like a small child in most cases, and is a control-freak. Even if he has no role or place in a situation, he feels like he must be the person on top, and does anything he can to make it that way. One example of this is AntiOnline turning into a "Legal Resource Center" for law enforcement agencies. JP used to play under the mask of being a "hacker" and talked to lots of people, logging everything un-knowing to them. He then turned this false-trust into his so-called "Hacker Database."

    Brian (a.k.a Jericho), of attrition.org has always been a very down to earth individual in all of my dealings with him. I have been "behind the scenes" in many of the stories relating to Attrition and AntiOnline, and Attrition's story has always been completely true and un-padded. Brian is a much better journalist, and I can see how he is getting sick of JP's slander.

    This might all just sound like another JP bashing, but no one seems to realize how much of an asshole this guy really is. He threatened me, among with many others, in many cases. He must have gotten made fun of a lot as a little kid or something, because he always tries to act like "Mr. Tough Guy" and has to be number one. He and AntiOnline will do anything to raise their image, even if it means turning their backs on suppsed "friends."

  • Loan Gunmen == HFG?
    I used ==. I am 'leet. Ph33r!@%
    Wednesday, September 15, 1999 at 15:27:48
    by John Vranesevich - Founder of AntiOnline

    September 13, 1998, The New York Times was broken into by a group calling itself HFG, Hacking for Girlies. The attack, which the New York Times claims cost them over $1 million in damages, falls almost one year ago to the day of when the Nasdaq was broken into.

    I wish I could be in HFG. Then maybe I could get girls instead of being a loner.

    [Note: Am I the only one who finds $1m a little extreme?]

    ABC News, C-span, The Drudge Report, and now the Nasdaq have all fallen victim to a group calling itself "The United Loan Gunmen". AntiOnline has reason to believe that this "new group", is actually the HFG acting out under a new name.

    We here at AntiOnline have nothing better to do so we're gonna start controversy to get visitors to our gay site.

    Using concepts developed under its "Virtual Fingerprinting System", AntiOnline has taken data from the recent United Loan Gunman hacks, and compared it to data in its extensive databases of over 6,700 individual hackers. The results?

    Using concepts developed under our lame Virtual Fingerprinting System (VFS? Virtual File System? Ha. What a gimp...) we've decided that both groups used english and had graphics on their page. They must be the same group as it's damn near impossible to imitate other peoples work. Oh, plus we compared it to our database of 6,700 hackers. Information we've obtained by logging our hack attempts and putting the attack with the host IP.

    Graphic Creation: Graphics created by members of the United Loan Gunman match the style and technique as graphics developed by members of HFG in September of last year. Several of these graphics also bare resemblance in creation method to a Defcon 6 logo submitted by a known individual, whose work also can be compared to several other attacks.

    Slashdot's foot looks strikingly similar to Monty Python's giant foot. Slashdot == Monty Python! I'm a dumbass! Wooo! Assuming the groups are using *nix, the possibilities are so slim that the two groups and the defcon6 logo creator all used the same program. (Gimp, perhaps?)

    Content: Similar writing styles, political agendas, affiliates, and personal attacks as hacks done in September of last year by HFG.

    So ULG get's inspired by HFG and steals their ideas. No, no. Wait that can't happen, we need some way to make us look like we know it all. WE WILL PREVAIL!%!@!$%!

    HTML: Matches in "free hand" creation style to hacks done by the HFG.

    My God! ULG and HFG both used tags! What are the odds?!?

    Affiliation: "Attrition" members once again claim to have "spoken to" the individuals involved with the recent attacks, just as they claimed last year during the HFG hacks. Brian Martin, founder of Attrition, was raided in December of 1998 as part of an FBI investigation into Hacking For Girlies (as reported by Forbes columnist Adam L. Penenberg).

    I hate attrition.org. They get all the fun hacks while all we get is that crack ho Carolyn Meinel and her gayass HowTo-Hack_Windows. Plus Brian Martin was raided. That means he's got all the good ties to the underground. Damn him! DAMN HIM! He must go down. ATTRITION WILL DIE!!

    Attack Method: Once again the methodology seems to be rather cloudy, and other industry leaders are drawing similarities into the attack styles (this could potentially become more clear as data from the recent Loan Gunmen attacks surfaces from the individual organizations).

    Damn, I wish we could find out what kind of boxes the UGL and HFG both cracked so we could link the groups together there too. Doh! Too bad we suck.

    Time: Just as before, attacks apparently done by the same group of people, yet under different names, are spread far apart by almost a year exactly.

    The times are totally unrelated, but it was almost twelve months. Perhaps if I word this "by almost a year" instead of "at entirely different times" the dumbasses who read this site and take my content seriously will take my side

    AntiOnline has been receiving more data from several other organizations who are also investigating these similarities, and is in the process of adding them to its catalog to be "fingerprinted".

    We have to wait for other organizations to give us info because we don't know how to get it. Plus I'm too busy as I have to have gay elephant sex with Meinel again.

    Exact results of AntiOnline's investigations are leading to a particular group of known hackers that AntiOnline has extensive information on. For obvious legal reasons, that data is not being disclosed to individuals outside of the law enforcement arena.

    We have no clue what we're talking about, so we'll lie and say for legal reasons we can't give the information out unless you're in law enforcement. That way maybe people will believe that we have information and will understand when we say we can't give it to them!!!

    For more information about "Hacker Profiling", read AntiOnline's Three Part Special Report entitled: "How To Be A Hacker Profiler".

    Feel free to read more of our bullshit and become less-educated word by word.


    Sorry this is so long, but I have nothing better to do. And sorry if this isn't that amusing, but I have nothing better to do.
  • HTML: Matches in "free hand" creation style to hacks done by the HFG.

    My God! ULG and HFG both used tags! What are the odds?!?


    It should say ULG and HFG both used "img src" tags, but I wasn't paying attention and put the bracket thingies around it.
  • Sad thing is, it still kinda made sense in the context of this thread. :)
    ---
    "'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.

  • Over the years I've seen JP and AntiOnline get torn down. And with reason. JP is basically a backstabbing sack of s**t who really is only concerned with making money for himself.

    I used to go to AntiOnline when it was still new, but after the first few 'fake' stories I decided there were other sites more worthy of my time there. Then JP shut down Packetstorm and that is one thing that made sure I'll never visit AntiOnline again.

    Now watch JP sue Rob because everyone posting negatively about him is 'slandering' him. *snicker*

  • Gaypee (Score:1)

    by joq ( 63625 )
    Another moronic ploy by John Vranesevich to obviously gain pulicity at any cost.

    First off there are unconfirmed rumors that JP is under investigation the the F.B.I. for possibly paying off script kiddies to hack sites so he can write his little stories. So why would anyone take what he says serious?

    Secondly he should be on every single Administrators hate list for having packet Storm Security removed due to his insecurities and lack of humor.

    Thirdly after even reading his and Carolyn Mienel's half baked story filled with more inconsistencies then the feds Waco accounts why is Slashdot even devoting its time to cover such a moron as JP is.

    You better watch it Slashdot he (JP) tries to sue everyone including his mother for using his name or copying his copywritten e-mails...

    ./me points and laughs spitting out water

    Now back to reading the e-mail he constantl sends threatening to sue us for AntiOffline.com


  • McCarthy and the Salem witch trials occured long after the middle ages. While McCarthy may have gone overboard, there is more and more evidence coming to light these days that show the extent of KGB efforts to corrupt and attack all aspects of american life. I, for one, don't think that it was the least bit insignificant.


    That being said, I knew JP back when he was trying to be a 'hax0r' and a packet pixie in #cha0s. He was, and always will be, a jerkoff. His biggest coup for antionline was the whole 'Analyzer' escapade. JP's ignorance was blinding. I remember once, a friend of mine was talking to him, while JP was apparently conversing with Analyzer on IRC. JP told my friend that the FBI would _never_ catch Analyzer, because Analyzer 'bounced' his connection 30+ times. When JP was asked how he knew this, he said something to the effect of 'simple, I did a tracert'. heheh. And this guy gives security advice? I'm not sure if I want to laugh or cry for the poor sheep who take him (other others like him) seriously.

    PS: Analyzer was indicted and is pleading innocent, saying that what he did was not a crime, because there weren't any signs up telling him that he couldn't. I assume he's referring to the motd. But all i want to know is where does one fit a warning message into the rpc protocol?

  • If you just consider the name, having a Web site named AntiOnline seems to be an oxymoron of the highest order. As funny as the existence of that mirror is, after the ridiculous name of that site, I'm not very surprised at this guy's idiocy.

  • We don't call them that anymore... In my eyes, anyone who calls a Cracker a hacker, is just as bad as the cracker himself. Stop confusing the media!!!

    Patrick Barrett
    Yebyen@adelphia.net

  • Lone gunmen is a reference to the individual convicted of JF Kennedy's assasination (and the possible conspiracies surrounding that). There maybe a few other iterations there I've missed.

    One iteration that stands out in my mind is that "lone gunmen" refers to the three computer geeks that occasionally appear on the X-Files. They were first seen ~20 years ago when they helped Mulder by cracking into top-secret government computers, and more recently helped Mulder and Scully crack the black box recovered from the plane utilizing alien technology which crashed at Area 51.

    I laughed when I first heard the ULG's name and immediately made the connection to the conspiracy theories that are a prominent part of the X-Files...

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