The "Scientific Impotence" Excuse 892
chichilalescu writes "I've had the feeling for a long time that people refuse to listen to scientists. The following is from an article on Ars Technica: 'It's hardly a secret that large segments of the population choose not to accept scientific data because it conflicts with their predefined beliefs: economic, political, religious, or otherwise. But many studies have indicated that these same people aren't happy with viewing themselves as anti-science, which can create a state of cognitive dissonance. That has left psychologists pondering the methods that these people use to rationalize the conflict. A study published in the Journal of Applied Social Psychology [abstract here] takes a look at one of these methods, which the authors term "scientific impotence" — the decision that science can't actually address the issue at hand properly.' The study found that 'regardless of whether the information presented confirmed or contradicted [the subjects'] existing beliefs, all of them came away from the reading with their beliefs strengthened."
Most people... (Score:5, Insightful)
... aren't intelligent enough to assess the quality of their own thinking. In fact most people aren't even able to think straight most of the time. The human mind is not built for the kind of obtuse rationality that scientists often communicate in.
Scientists really have to do a better job at communicating clearly with less jargon, I think part of the problem is not being able to demonstrate the effects in a tangible way that is undenibale. I think the use of metaphors and communicating complex things in terms of everyday things that people can understand would go a long ways to help people understanding the contradictions.
You really have to catch people in contradictions in a public venue with an argument that is simple to understand and you'd look like an idiot for not accepting.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You really have to catch people in contradictions in a public venue with an argument that is simple to understand and you'd look like an idiot for not accepting.
And even then people frequently get really defensive and look for ways to attack rather than listen and/or accept the facts.
Re:Most people... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
There is no polite way to tell someone that the science directly conflicts with the religious/political/social tenets that they've been taught were sacred since they were a child. It's not the understanding that's the problem. It's the *implications* that people have a hard time accepting.
I also think there's another side of that problem that people fail to consider: It's often not the bare fact of "what something is" that people are afraid of losing, but the "how do I lead my life" implications that go along with it. Religious people aren't just upset because you're telling them that their imaginary friend isn't real, but because you're simultaneously telling them that they can't rely on any of their beliefs or any of their existing moral/ethical views. It occurs to them that you're sayin
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I thought it was because they did so without permission.
Re:Most people... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is not as simple as you make it seem; many scientific results have subtle but important facets that require highly specific language (i.e. jargon) to properly clarify. It is the difference between humans being descendants of chimpanzees and humans sharing a common ancestor with chimpanzees -- a very common point of confusion that stems from attempts to describe the theory of evolution in overly simple terms. When scientific results are described in vague-but-easy-to-understand terms, it puts ammunition in the hands of people who, for whatever reason, wish to attack science.
"You really have to catch people in contradictions in a public venue with an argument that is simple to understand and you'd look like an idiot for not accepting."
What is needed is a more educated populace, that can better understand the precise language of scientific results and the implications of those results. Then people who did not accept scientific results really would look like idiots, and they would stand out as idiots.
The most interesting part is (Score:5, Funny)
Psychologists (Score:3, Insightful)
Most of the people I know who fall under this description dislike psychologists the most of all scientists and/or academics. I doubt that this will help change anything; it'll probably just make it worse.
The problem is politics (Score:4, Insightful)
Activists on both sides of an issue do the same thing. Each side chooses the evidence that supports their predetermined belief.
The other side of "scientific impotence" is "appeal to authority".
Once issues become politicalized it becomes very difficult to make a scientific judgement one way or another because of all the competing agendas and misinformation on both sides.
Logical fallacies (Score:5, Insightful)
There was once a guy on my favorite forum that argued politics a lot, and his favorite trick was to link to an encyclopedia entry on logical fallacies every time someone made an argument against him, pointing out which fallacy they had made. I once asked openly if there was a logical fallacy for people who replied to every question with an accusation of a logical fallacy rather than just arguing the merits of the question. His reply was that there was - but he wouldn't tell me which one it is.
The problem I have with your statement is that there are limits to the Appeal to Authority Fallacy. The A2AF would almost certainly come into play if, say, something was wrong with your company's business and you asked why it wasn't fixed, and you were told it wasn't being fixed because your boss said it was fine. The other stupid extreme there is that if your doctor says that you need a surgery but you argue that it's unnecessary, when your friends try to tell you that you should listen to your doctor, are you going to claim that they're just appealing to the doctor's authority?
There's got to be a hair to split around the difference between appealing to an arbitrary / managerial authority and appealing to a knowledgable / professional authority. There's a point at which appealing to the authority of a person who is highly trained in a specific background with relevant application to a "hard" science, one that is testable and falsifiable, should be relevant against an opposition that does not have that same depth of experience.
Once issues become politicalized it becomes very difficult to make a scientific judgement one way or another because of all the competing agendas and misinformation on both sides.
Many of the truly controversial scientific actions that occur lately have been cases in which one side has a majority of scientists in agreement with them, while the other appeals to a very small subset of scientists who gain notoriety by positing contradictory theories, without even bringing up the issue of who may be funding either group or if they have the relevant scientific backgrounds. We're supposed to believe that the opinions of a few are supposed to be given equal weight and consideration as the greater opinion against them, even without published methods or peer examination. I've got a different logical fallacy for that - the false equivalency.
And what you've just said is a well-known political tactic. If there's a scientific issue that comes out that certain people are nto comfortable with or stand to lose profits as a result, make it a political issue. Introduce contradictory evidence without fully sourcing it. When anyone says that your claims are biased and untrustworthy, claim the same thing right back at them. Claim that those scientists have just as much of an agenda as yours do. In this way, you can invalidate a scientific opinion in the public trust.
You say there are two sides. That's the problem. (Score:5, Interesting)
People's understanding of issues is heavily determined by how they are framed. The frame sets the questions, which in turn point to the answers. Answering "Which side of the issue are you on?" means choosing one of exactly two sides.
Once an issue is politicized like this it ceases to be a question of truth and becomes a matter of identity. You may ask, "Do you believe in evolution?" But that is not the question many people will answer. What they really hear is, "Do you believe in evolution, or are a God-fearing person like us?" Then their answer is not so much a negative rejection of evolution as a positive affirmation of who they are and their membership in a community.
How did evolution become incompatible with being part of a community? This happened not by explicit argument, but by subtle framing of politics. You say that there are two sides to an issue. But that division into two is exactly the moment of politicization. Which side are you on? Are you with us or against us? Do you believe in evolution or do you believe in God?
Would you sacrifice your friends and your community and your sense of who you are in order to believe in an abstract theory that has no bearing on your day-to-day life? I think it is perfectly rational to say no regardless of the evidence. We need community to give life meaning. It's in our blood as human beings. But community life is impoverished in our lonely society. We cling to it when we find it.
Nor does this apply only to religious folk. Say you had a revelatory experience of God that showed evolution to be false. Imagine the social and personal implications of denying evolution. Would you believe, or would you imagine it was a hallucination? As an atheist, I can imagine the former would require a wrenching reconstruction of my identity and relationships to other people.
What you say is true in general: people tend to choose the evidence that suits them (though this is not symmetrical: some people, groups and arguments are more honest than others). My point, however, is that the logic you are criticizing is embedded in the very language of your post. Your acceptance that there are two sides - not one, not three - is where the slippery slope begins.
Science moves, belief is static (Score:5, Insightful)
Part of the problem is that science is a moving target. Look at dietary and nutritional science. If you're a baby boomer, you've heard scientists say umpteen different things over the last 40 years. People don't mind some change, but they don't like their belief systems upturned regularly by a system that is founded on constant change, but says it speaks "the truth". The truth is very slippery. Look at Fred Hoyle. The guy just couldn't come to grips with the Big Bang. And yet, if you want to get technical about it, what we currently think is "the truth" about the origin of the universe is a collection of models that agree with the data to some extent. Some of these models are guaranteed to be overturned.
Is it any wonder that people are resistant to the pressure to change?
-l
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem is with more with scientists (or pseudo-scientists, a.k.a. "social scientists" like psychologists) who present the frontiers of research, where "facts" change from year to year as settled science. There is a core of settled science that will not change in the next few millennia, such as Newtonian mechanics (plus special and general relativity, just because GPS system will have hard time working unless these are accounted for) as damn good approximation to every day experience, and no member of p
Re:Science moves, belief is static (Score:5, Insightful)
The truth is very slippery.
Truth isn't slippery. Truth is absolute. The problem is that things are presented as truth when they are not. A scientist does a study and finds that cows fed fatty diets die of heart attacks more often than regular cows. That is truth. But that study is published, and by the time it gets to the ordinary human it comes out as a health book explaining why all fat is bad. That isn't truth. It is an interpretation: a generalization from a subset of scientific information summarized and handed down.
The pseudo-scientists, news reporters, and pundits purport to offer truth when they offer interpretation. And after a while, the average person doesn't know what to believe any more.
We see this on Slashdot all the time. A paper published in Nature, summarized by a reporter, published, blogged, and respun until "I found a way to improve transistor density 2.5%" becomes a Slashdot headline like "AI robots will take over the world by next Tuesday." Somewhere... there was a grain of truth behind that headline.
Re:Science moves, belief is static (Score:5, Insightful)
A scientist does a study and finds that cows fed fatty diets die of heart attacks more often than regular cows. That is truth.
No, that is theory, which the study failed to disprove. What is truth is that in the population studied by the scientist, death from heart attack was positively correlated with body fat percentage; and, generalizing, that there is a particular low p-value for observing that correlation if the hypothesis were not true and the sample were unbiased. Truth may be "absolute", but only when expressed in the correctly slippery context. You can blame the media for blowing things out of proportion, but you also have to realize what the GP is getting at.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Thank you.
Those who deny scientific evidence out-of-hand probably don't understand science. Those who hold scientific evidence as absolute truth definitely don't understand science... Any many of those people call themselves scientists.
It's not rocket science. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you'll find that most of the mistrust people harbour about scientists, and science in general, comes from the fact that the media tends to 'definitively' interpret the results of non-definitive studies. Or over-report studies that, when peer-reviewed, fall apart like a... well, like a poorly-built motorcycle.
But never underestimate the power of hucksters operating under the guise of 'chiropractor', 'naturopath', or 'one who speaks for the man/men in the sky'. They tell you with a straight face that these people who have nothing to gain by lying, and who have dedicated their lives to understanding how things work through empirical research, and who aren't trying to take your money, are not to be trusted. The last few decades have given rise to a real resurgence of anecdotal 'fact' over the scientific method, and it's kind of scary.
Scientific 'Facts' Change more often than Religion (Score:4, Insightful)
I completely understand why many people aren't as quick to believe everything scientists say. Simply because scientific -fact- seems to change every few years. A few years ago scientists said there were 9 planets. Now there's 8. First there was no water on the moon, now there is. As far as science is concerned, theres no problem with updating facts and theories as new information is obtained. But most people don't work like that. As far as they're concerned, you're the same as the guy who keeps changing his story every time you ask a question.
The problem is that scientists will call you ignorant or stupid if you stop believing every word they say just because you know there's a good chance of them saying something different in a short while.
Religion on the other hand, rarely changes its story.
D
Re:Scientific 'Facts' Change more often than Relig (Score:5, Insightful)
Exzachary. Science is the pursuit of knowledge, not its permanent acquisition. Belief presents itself as acquisition with no need to go any further.
-l
Science and Belief are not oppossites... (Score:3, Insightful)
Science and Faith are the opposites, not Belief. "Belief", alone, is too vague.
Science is about what we believe, based on our best available evidence. Faith is about what we believe, despite our best available evidence. New knowledge and ideas can cause upheavals in either, but with Science, the end goal is to find truth, not preserve it.
Re:Scientific 'Facts' Change more often than Relig (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Scientific 'Facts' Change more often than Relig (Score:5, Insightful)
First off, lets talk about pluto. There are no new "facts" here, just a standardization of definitions. There was a time when "planet" meant "anything big orbiting the sun". When it turned out there were millions of big things orbiting the sun, scientists needed to decide just how big a thing had to be. The only two serious options were one that would increase the number of planets immediately to 12 and probably upwards of 40 eventually, and one that would reduce the number of planets to 8 and probably leave it there.
Next, water on the moon. We looked for water on the moon once, and didn't find it. Scientists announce "we can't find any water on the moon". Journalists announce "there is no water on the moon". Later, scientists crash a lump of metal into the moon with the energy of a small nuclear bomb, and find that there *is* some water, just deeper then they were able to look before. It's no more "scientific fact" changing then it would be if you looked everywhere for your keys and couldn't find them, announced that you probably left them in your car... then found them under the couch in a more through search.
The other scientific development often brought up in this regard is the whole "we once thought the earth was flat" thing. Guess what? We're never going to find out that we were wrong all along, and the earth really is flat. Never. We're never going to find out that the sun rotates around the earth. The reason is because scientific *facts* never change. Scientific hypotheses change every day, and theories change once in a while, but *facts* never change.
And in any case, which is better... being absolutely firm and unchanging (but wrong), or admitting your errors switching to the truth?
What if your beliefs are scientifically reaasoned? (Score:3, Insightful)
...choose not to accept scientific data because it conflicts with their predefined beliefs...
In other words, people are prejudiced, whether one's bias is a matter of religion or a firm belief in the aether doesn't really matter. Certainly there are those that oppose anything a person in a lab coat (or a tweed jacket) might say but this is well known behaviour. If the purpose of the paper was just to give a name to this phenomena then personally I'd rather they came up with something more descriptive rather than pandering to the need for a snappy headline.
I don't see what this has to do with science specifically: I'd have just as much luck convincing a creationist that Buddha put the bones there as I would getting them to accept evolution through natural selection. If someone is set in their ways you'll be hard pressed to convince them no matter how you came to whatever it is you're arguing.
Not really 'impotence'... (Score:3, Insightful)
... more like an entitlement mindset.
Religion, and the idea of God in general, springs from the basic notion that the universe owes you something. Eternal life, accountability, a reason to live, the "answers."
Science, on the other hand, starts from the premise that whatever secrets Mother Nature holds will have to be earned through hard work. There are no promises of results and no guarantees that understanding will ever be reached.
So is it any wonder that so many people take the easy way out and choose faith instead?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
How will they feel when their offspring on a newly minted planet dismiss them as the man-in-the sky?
Assuming that, like God, I refused to show up in person to explain myself, I'd be downright disappointed if my creatures worshiped me and made up all kinds of wild stories about what I did, when I did it, and what I expect of them.
It would mean I didn't get all the bugs out of my creatures' AI routines before I released them.
But...science is faith too! (Score:3, Insightful)
For me, without being able to replicate experimental results personally, perform higher math easily, or penetrate the often obtuse language of scientific publications means that while I can consider a hypothesis or theory, I'm basically doing what those who follow the teachings of a religion are doing...interpreting someone else's work by using my common experience.
The fact that I believe science is largely accurate and a better way to describe our surroundings than religion is as much faith as someone who believes in their religion. Scientific Impotence is another way of saying "I'd like to recognize that alternate faith, but I still think mine is more valid."
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Science is not faith! Science is a methodology leading to statements that can be proven or disproven. Faith (as in religious faith) is "Here's some truths".
interpreting someone else's work by using my common experience.
Yeah. Except that's all you can do with religion, as opposed to science.
To call science faith is disingenuous at best, and blatantly dishonent at worst..
It's time to stop worrying (Score:4, Funny)
Oh yeah, well????!!! (Score:3, Funny)
Scientia potestas est, and sometimes it is willing to share...
"choose to accept" (Score:3, Insightful)
" 'It's hardly a secret that large segments of the population choose not to accept scientific data"
The problem of the current society is not the ignorance or non-acceptance of science by population.
Lay people do not have to "accept" or "reject" science. Science becomes relevant to people only in the form of technology. For example, what was the origin of species has absolutely no relevance to practical life of people, for example, so people do not have to "accept" or "reject" the origin of species. In the contrary, "inheritance" and "mutability" as well as "selection" ("natural selection" proved by the way useless - too slow) are very relevant to people and have been used (without much pomposity) generations and generations before Darwin.
On the other hand, people do not have to "accept" or "reject" the "ideology" of theoretical mechanics on the ideological level, because people CAN use it, and if they are using it without knowledge (sic! knowledge, not "acceptance") they are in very practical trouble, and if they are using it right, then they get immediate very unequivocal practical results, and those results exclude any ideological "acceptance" or "rejection".
Face it. There is useful science, and there is useless "science". One of them IS actually science, and the other is not.
Another point: if you have to forcefeed science to people, then there is no such "science". True science does not need ideology. True science is obvious (that's what my late scientific Teacher taught me, by the way, to work on a paper until the results become obvious).
Que to "troll" moderation.
This just in... (Score:4, Funny)
This just in... stupid people aren't happy when they realize they're stupid. Full story at 11.
I am a big critic of science (Score:3, Insightful)
but I still maintain that it is the best way for pursuing knowledge. In fact, science is all about renewing itself, reviewing itself and progress. Yes, I know that there are a lot of horseshit out there masquerading as science. There are authoritative pricks, there are oppressive fuckers, braindead platonicists, opportunistic paper-pumpers. Still. It. Is. The. Way.
These is a result of 2 factors (Score:3, Informative)
1) Children not being taught critical thinking and have no training to deal with alternative aarguements to their own viewpoint
2) Learning that contrary to what the GOP wants you to thinks, changing you mind when new data comes in is NOT a bad thing.
3) Religion. It's very nature teaches people not to question things they believe.
Re:Religion (Score:5, Insightful)
I think it's more basic than that. Any ideology followed closely and long enough leads to unthinking behavior and beliefs. Ideology requires a lack of thought almost by definition. Whether that is unthinkingly following a religion, an economic system, a political party, or nationalistic rhetoric doesn't really matter, what matters is the fact that people turn off their brains and allow someone or something else make decisions for them. Once turned off a brain is a very difficult thing to get turned back on again.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
What if that ideology is rationalism?
Re:Religion (Score:4, Insightful)
Then you'll rationalize irrational behavior, including your own, and leave it at that.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What if that ideology is rationalism?
Surely you know people - or even yourself - who this applies to. I know it applies to me sometimes, and if you read enough comments on /. you can certainly find a number of others. Unblinking rationalism will cause you to lose the ability to appear reasonable to other people. This is, in a sense, "turning off your brain," as the GP stated. And if you're very deep in that rut, it will indeed be very hard to get out of it. You won't want to compromise, because you think your belief is the only right belief. I
Re:Religion (Score:5, Insightful)
Rationalism is not an ideology. It cannot be. To be idealistic means forgoing being rational when a particular subject related to that ideology becomes the topic of discussion.
Rationalism and being able to consider viewpoints of others are not incompatible. The problem arises when you are facing what you know is either an irrational or unproven viewpoint espoused as truth by someone else.
A minority of the people mentioned in the study the article talks about are members of this group of thinkers. Scientists *ought* to be. Preconceived notions and science do not do justice to research.
There's a lot of crappy discussion of various scientific topics going on right now simply because the loudest talkers are not the most rational ones...at least until rational people get upset at flagrant opining in the guise of fact-giving.
Rational people are quick to compromise, if given evidence with solid foundations. Irrational people see rational people dismissing unfounded or weakly-supported opinion and think that rational people are unwilling to compromise because *they* cannot step back and examine things in the same way. Being able to resist making up your mind makes you a bad candidate for being, say, a troop commander, but it is the only *defense* to ideology.
Maybe you have a different definition of rational?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
> Rationalism is not an ideology. It cannot be.
It mostly certainly can be.
See: Pseudo-skepticism.
http://www.rpi.edu/~sofkam/talk/talk.html [rpi.edu]
_Anything_ can be turned into a religion.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Rationalism can be a school of philosophical thought opposed to empiricism [stanford.edu].
Perhaps more illustratively, in Jerry Pournelle's chart [wikipedia.org], rationalism "refers to the extent which a political philosophy is compatible with the idea that social problems can be solved by use of reason."
Re:Religion (Score:5, Informative)
Unblinking rationalism will cause you to lose the ability to appear reasonable to other people.
*appear* reasonable is the key phrase there. The rational always appear unreasonable to the irrational. Is it the rationalist's fault that others don't think enough?
You won't want to compromise, because you think your belief is the only right belief.
Unless presented with evidence otherwise. That's the core of rationalism.
Even in scientific communities (Score:4, Insightful)
Sometimes people will become so emotionally-invested in a scientific "fact" that they will refuse to accept any evidence to the contrary.
Even if the evidence is gathered by the most rigorous scientific methodologies and the global scientific community as a whole accepts the new fact as an update to the old.
These are some of the most people to talk to, because they think they have science on their side, even though they don't.
Even science is vulnerable (Score:3, Interesting)
Science like many other things has it's own internal politics. Unfortunately this can mean that whilst the ideal of science is great, real world science is as vulnerable to the same level of establishment dogma as politics and religion. For example if your beliefs (e.g. not agreeing with string theory) doesn't match up with those who are leading your department the chances of you getting tenure are slim to none. Similarly with funding and access to resources, if you have a hypothesis that the majority of
Re:Religion (Score:5, Insightful)
I think it's more basic than that. Any ideology followed closely and long enough leads to unthinking behavior and beliefs.
Including... science.
Except science isn't an ideology.
Re: Religion (Score:5, Insightful)
But the idea that the scientific method is the best methodology for determining anything, and that everything can be understood through the scientific method, is an ideology.
The "scientific method", when boiled down to its essence, is nothing more than a belief that evidence is the best indicator of reality.
When you troubleshoot your car or computer, you follow the scientific method. Is it "ideology" that keeps you from taking it to an exorcist instead of probing and prodding to find out what the problem is?
Re: Religion (Score:5, Insightful)
How does science tell you how you should behave in society, for instance?
Well, just as a for-instance, games theory shows that a simple tit-for-tat algorithm is one of the most effective strategies in an iterated Prisoner's Dilemma. Study of social insects, as well as herd and pack animals, reveals that cooperation among members of a species is a powerful evolutionary strategy. Not the only one, of course, but further study quickly reveals that we are social animals. Studies of the human brain reveal powerful empathic circuitry that may well form the basis for the Golden Rule. It's not as strong as the sex drive (and even that can be suppressed), but there does seem to be a biological basis for some foundational ethics. In fact, it's silly to assume that ethics can or should exist in a vacuum, with no scientific basis.
Of course, science is unlikely to tell us which fork to use at a formal dinner, or why, but it can definitely reveal a lot about basic ethics. I might go so far as to say that if it can't be explained by science, it's not ethics, but manners.
Likewise, science isn't the be-all-end-all in determining what kind of government you should set up
Not at this point. There's a definite paucity of data, as you point out. We've only tried a handful of kinds, and this is something where the negative consequences of random experimentation are too great to risk on live populations. Nevertheless, models and simulations can reveal a great deal, although our current tools limit the scope, and therefore the effectiveness of such modeling. I agree that science is not yet the "be-all-end-all" here, but to suggest that it can't ever be is naive and foolish. Heck, it may well turn out that there is no "best" kind of government--that you always have tradeoffs. Nevertheless, that can only be proven with...wait for it...science. And if science can help us understand those tradeoffs (which, at least in theory, it certainly can), then it can help us make a more informed decision.
Science does have limits, no question, but your view of those limits seems hopelessly naive.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Science as an ideology (Score:3, Interesting)
It didn't begin that way, but it is becoming one.
Please explain your position. I am not rejecting your idea, but I am not inclined to fill in the blanks in your argument, either.
Science isn't even vaguely an idology. (Score:3, Informative)
No actually, its not "becomming one". The people who have become disenchanted with their existing religion have taken their initial, inadequate, and over-blown imagining of something and decided to erect a new false idol to replace their old false idol.
The fact that these idolators have chosen to stamp the word Science on their alter, and have taken up the trappings of what they beleive to be science, and then fool other people who presume there exists congruence where "strong evidence" and "confidence" and
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Are you this up in arms when it comes to attempting to use religion as a hammer to force another ideology upon a skeptical populace that will result in worsened economic conditions and reduced freedoms for that populace?
Not trolling; I'm genuinely curious.
--Jeremy
Re:Religion (Score:5, Insightful)
The people who complain loudest about politicization of science usually are in reality complaining that science isn't politicized in the way they'd like it to be.
Re:Religion (Score:5, Insightful)
Gotta love strawman arguments! I never said anything along the lines of that. The qualifiers "usually" and "loudest" are very important here and the meaning significantly changes if you ignore them, as you seem to have done. Anyway, like you didn't complain about politicization of science but merely noted it exists, I didn't say you're too deeply set in your ideology to accept scientific theories with mountains of evidence and extremely broad support among the scientific community, I merely noted that such people exist and correlate well with loudly complaining in a manner which you most certainly were not doing.
But let's cut the crap, shall we? You indeed were, and I indeed was. And your original post was complaining about the evil cabal of climate scientists and their bogus theory of anthropogenic global warming. Anyone could see that. Sure, you tried to be vague about it, but the stuff about scientists "forcing their ideology on a skeptical populace" and harming the economy and restricting freedoms (because the freedom to screw over other people is the most essential freedom of all, of course) is a classic AGW denialist stance. Nobody else makes that specific set of claims, particularly the "oh they're going to destroy the economy" line.
And now we come to the central point of the matter, and why your original post was was modded down as a troll. You are claiming that a scientific theory with decades of research, enormous amounts of evidence, broad consensus amongst the relevant experts, and no denial by any international or national scientific body is a fraud, mere ideology-pushing. You are accusing the scientific community (not just climatology, it'd have to be far larger than just that to work) of conspiracy and deception on a massive, unprecedented scale, which somehow over all these years has not had a single insider coming out with the truth. And you are making these accusations without the slightest shred of evidence to show that said theory is wrong, and certainly not enough to prove that it is the product of some immense conspiracy.
You're talking about "research and facts", so let's see what you've got to support your position. Otherwise, your troll moderation was wholly deserved.
Re:Religion (Score:5, Interesting)
I think it's more basic than that. Any ideology followed closely and long enough leads to unthinking behavior and beliefs.
Including... science.
Except science isn't an ideology.
Except that many DO make "science" an ideology, particularly when attempting to use science as a hammer to force another ideology upon a skeptical populace that will result in worsened economic conditions and reduced freedoms for that populace.
Strat
Why is this modded "Troll"?? I'm genuinely curious.
It's not like this hasn't happened many times in the past, and will most likely continue in the future.
Is it now heresy to suggest that politicians politicize science and so do ideologically-driven scientists?
Strat
Because it's a transparent shot at climate change science, implying that it's all a conspiracy. Apparently practically everyone who is qualified to interpret the data have conspired to deceive the entire world about the subject. I can't think of a single scientific organization in the world that has researched the subject that doesn't agree with the IPCC findings. Yet some folks with no background in the relevant subjects, who haven't done any actual research, feel that they can dispute the findings and allege all sorts of malfeasance. THAT is not science. That's just people with vested interests or ideological loyalties defending their turf and trying to spread FUD in order to prevent any action being taken.
They don't have scientific evidence to back up their claims, they just want to sow doubt. Do they really care if they're wrong? No. They'll simply blame the government for not acting to prevent whatever problems arise, just as the "drill baby drill" folks are now blaming the government for not doing more to prevent the gulf spill and for not fixing it faster now. This, despite the fact that they would vehemently oppose regulations on industry that might affect their bottom line, and that they always claim that government is generally incompetent and industry knows best how to do their jobs. It's all quite self-serving.
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Worsened economic conditions and reduced freedoms have nothing to do with science, at least not the science you're talking about, and the scientists practicing that science have no such motivation except in the minds of conspiracy theorists.
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how do you think scientists got past the mind blowing inconsistencies quantum mechanics requires us to grasp. ...
By believing what they measure and observe and correlate it with theory?
Re:Religion (Score:5, Insightful)
If science is an ideology, then two column accounting and engineering are ideologies.
But you are exhibiting another element of cognitive dissonance, in that you attempt to reduce an empirical discipline like science down to the same level as an ideology. This is a standard tactic of anti-intellectuals, post-modernists, Creationists and pseudo-skeptics. Rather than critique a theory or a discipline entire they simply redefine the terminology to make it more expansive.
Science is a tool, a methodology. It has no ideology, any more than a hammer or a matchstick has an ideology. That's not to say that proponents or practitioners can't have ideologies, but part of the design of science is to eliminate the biases by forcing methodological strictures on research. Science is all about the evidence, ideologies are all, so far as I can tell, about ego stroking.
Re:Religion (Score:4, Interesting)
Similarly, arithmetic is the ideology of two-column accounting, and mechanics is the ideology of, say, mechanical engineering.
Re:Religion (Score:4, Insightful)
Science makes some very big assumptions about causality. "Similar causes lead to similar effects." Thus far, these assumptions have held up, but if we, for example, unequivocally break the light-speed barrier, science would be turned on its ear.
I believe there are more assumptions made by science, (science being defined as following the scientific method.)
What? That makes no sense. Disproving a scientific hypothesis or theory does not "turn science on its ear". It happens, and the theories are adjusted accordingly. We develop a new theory or revise the existing one to account for the new evidence and continue experimentation and the search for more evidence.
Seems like you're arguing that because it disregards solipsism, it's making some enormous assumption that could be wrong. If it's wrong about that, then it really doesn't matter anyway.
Re:Religion (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't need a psychology degree to tell you right now what the problem is: non-thinking. Non-thinking makes a virtue out of not thinking [tautological/reflexive]. And if you accept rational science then you're doing something morally wrong.
There, fixed that for you. People don't need religion to make them stupid. They're perfectly capable of being stupid all by themselves. Blaming religion is just taking the easy way out.
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Re:Religion (Score:5, Insightful)
Even people who don't describe themselves as being religious, or who are very conspicuously not part of any organized religion are like this. I think this is a general human trait that religion hijacks for its own purposes.
Blind Faith != Religion (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't paint all religions with the same brush. I consider myself to be quite religious, but I am not a slave to blind faith. My religion says that the universe was created when a giant cow licked a huge block of salt... while that may be what my religion says, I have zero doubt in my mind that it did not happen that way.
People who fail to examine their religion in the context of which it was written are doomed to falling into the traps of blind faith. Those who can look at their religion for what it is, can rectify it with modern knowledge, and can take into account the effects of history (revisions, political influences, lost texts etc) are able to differentiate religion and faith and have no trouble at all accepting scientific knowledge.
Re:Blind Faith != Religion (Score:4, Insightful)
If you do not believe what that religion says, then how can you call it "my religion" in any meaningful sense?
Those who can look at their religion for what it is, can rectify it with modern knowledge, and can take into account the effects of history (revisions, political influences, lost texts etc) are able to differentiate religion and faith and have no trouble at all accepting scientific knowledge.
Those who modify "their religion" based on political influences truly have no religion, or at best, have a cult. They are chaff being blown about in the wind.
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find me one that hasn't been modified to suit a political end? Christanity has had whole swaths of books removed from their bible because it didnt agree with the pope at the time, in fact, all of the big three have gone throug massive revisions over the centuries.
I am not aware of a single recognised religion that has not either been changed from within, or forced changes from outside to suit a political agenda. I would be more than interested if you could list some...
Re:Blind Faith != Religion (Score:4, Informative)
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iirc it was at the Council of Nicaea, as for an example of removed texts: Gospel of Judas and the Gospel of Mary (among MANY others declared non-cannon). The first was removed because it cast Judas in a positive light (favored of the apostles, he was chosen by JC to be the one to get the romans as he knew he would have to die soon, that Judas was not a betrayer but was actually asked to do it), the later because it was authored by a woman.
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Christian Bishops convened with Emperor Constantine, and later Councils convened with later Emperors, I can't speak to any popes, but the Bible that is known today came through many revisions and was changed for many reasons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea [wikipedia.org] 325 AD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Council_of_Nicaea [wikipedia.org] 787 AD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douay-Rheims_Bible [wikipedia.org] 1609 AD 73 Books
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Bible [wikipedia.org] in with 66 only books
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of [wikipedia.org]
Re:Blind Faith != Religion (Score:4, Insightful)
There exists a large space for personal interpretation in most religions.
Re:Blind Faith != Religion (Score:4, Insightful)
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I think you misunderstood the intent of the phrase "political influences" - the goal of people who think this way isn't to add modifications based on the influence of modern politics, it's to try and subtract inferred old modifications based on the influence of older politics.
I sympathize with the fear of constructing "piecemeal" religion. If your epistemology leads you to twenty tenets, and you l
Re:Blind Faith != Religion (Score:5, Insightful)
Thank you. I'm also religious, and a scientist, and I get no end of crap because people assume that I rigorously follow everything that my religion says, or that is said in defense of my religion. You can have faith and still make your own decisions.
I also agree that people need to look at religion as more than just some statements. It's a whole cultural phenomenon, a way for people to pass knowledge about who they are and how they should act from one generation to the next. And many people who are not at all religious just as blindly follow other things. I'm not talking just about politics and such, but science too. Flat earth theory, geocentrism, etc. were all accepted (blindly) by people for a long time until new theories came up.
For my contribution, I do think there's something to the 'scientific impotence' idea. Some things are not (at least yet) addressable by science, and that's where faith can step in. It's kind of the point of religion to explain inexplicable things (or eff the ineffable). People (on both sides) need to accept that religion is not supposed to be scientific. Science needs to be falsifiable, replicable, etc and religion just isn't. Obviously religious people should stop trying to religion away science, but just as much scientists should stop trying to science away religion.
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I think people need to realize also that sometimes it's not a lack of faith in science, but instead a lack of faith in man and their ability to act. It behooves the upright monkey to question. So they do, it's basis of science in fact. But when they question we should scold them? This does not compute.
Re:Blind Faith != Religion (Score:4, Insightful)
Please, which ineffable things can religion eff but science cannot? I hear religious people make this statement all the time, but they can never back it up - and when they try, all I get is "well science cannot explain the nature of some specific thing that religions came up and which doesn't appear in real life". Science can't explain the nature of Harry Potter, but that's okay because he doesn't exist.
Also:
Did you know that the second half of that sentence is the most common way of performing the first half of the sentence? After all, what is religion that science should not perform science on it? Should we not study the effect of prayer on health outcomes [nytimes.com]? (hint: it has no detectable effect) Should we not study the origin of life? Should we not study whether or not it is possible to create a synthetic organism? Should we not study what neurological effects people who pray experience?
What parts of "religion" should scientists stop trying to "science away"?
Re:Religion (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Religion (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't need a psychology degree to tell you right now what the problem is: religion.
A psychology degree may have helped you realize that non-religious people ignore science as well.
Not All Science (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't need a psychology degree to tell you right now what the problem is: religion.
I think religion is a factor, but there's something else going on because while most *Americans* identify with Christianity, actual Bible Thumpers and indeed regular church goers are a minority.
First, distrust of science is primarily in the softer sciences like psychology, environmental sciences, and such; no one really questions the atom smashers, the "high-tech" scientists. I think that many people believe that these "soft scientists" are not actually objective, and let "wishy-washy" environmentalism and other perceived leftyism influence their findings; that they set out with an subjective objective and mold their science to fit their personal views.
Clearly, in many cases, this is true, and it has tainted all "soft science".
Not religion; tribalism (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Religion (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't need a psychology degree to tell you right now what the problem is: stupid people
Don't blame religion for the negative impacts that stupid people have upon society.
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You seem to assume that "science" gives mankind an escape from presuppositions. But that's easily demonstrated not to be true. There are no such thing as "brute facts", whose Truth somehow transcends interpretation. There are only interpreted facts.
Everyone has faith. Even a non-religious person presupposes certain things. For instance:
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"[T]ake the universe and grind it down to the finest powder, and sieve it through the finest sieve, and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. And yet, you try to act as if there is some ideal order in the world. As if there is some, some rightness in the universe, by which it may be judged." - Terry Pratchett, Death, The Hogfather
There is nothing stupid about believing in something larger than yourself. As Pratchett says, ideals like justice and mercy can not be detected scientifically,
Re:Religion (Score:5, Insightful)
"The problem" is people who think there should be a "the" before the word "problem." Especially the ones who then follow that up with a single noun.
The body of science has already exceeded the capability of the human brain to absorb in its entirety. Some people cannot even comprehend the scope, let alone the contents, of what we know as a conglomerate.
At some level, everyone has to take some of the details of areas outside of their scope on credit these days, and it is only going to get worse. It's going go far from believing in the credibility of authority figures or certain groups of scientists. Some form of spirituality is going to become more and more essential to keep the human psyche from freaking out in an endless series of myopic anxiety attacks. Either that or artificial brain enhancement.
None of the above is an excuse to slack off and ignore the world -- everyone should try to be good at something. Nor is it an endorsement of the backward, psychologically abusive religions that are still popular and widely exploited.
But people that walk around thinking killing off "religion" is a panacea scare me as much as the evangelicals.
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I disagree.
I think the open and obvious manipulation of scientific data to market and sell products is what has empowered the modern evangelical idiocy in the United States. If you want to see the credibility of science rendered impotent, read some patent drug marketing materials. Another great example is baby rearing advice. Compare the scientifically derived advice given by doctors for infant care today. Then talk to someone with a 10 year old. Then talk to your mom.
Re:Religion (Score:5, Informative)
Faith makes a virtue out of not thinking.
That would be a surprising deduction to monks, theologians, and apologists of many faiths throughout the ages. Reason and rational thought are not the sole province of science. In fact, before the Enlightenment (in Europe), reason and rational thought were believed to be the province of priests and lawyers. Logic deals only with deduction based upon accepted assumptions. Assumptions about metaphysics are unprovable/unfalsifiable, so science can say nothing about it (the very topic of this article). Some people with faith will determine scientific results differently than some people without faith because certain assumptions (about which science has no say) necessarily creep into the logic. In short, there _is_ thinking on the part of the faithful, and to disparage them by claiming they are unreasoning fools, fit only for padded cells is short-sighted at best.
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Luke chapter 3 states that Jesus is the 75th generation after Adam. So if one even assume an average of 20 years per generation that would mean only 1500 years between Adam and Jesus. But the bible states that Adam lived to be over 800 years old and Noah lived close to 400 years old. But even giving a thousand years for each generation would only give 75,000 years between the first human and Jesus. Even that amount of time is not enough to explain how people got to all the far reaches of this planet and how there are different races. So one has to pick and choose what one believes from the bible since it is irrational to believe there were only 75 generations and that the flood covered the whole earth. To be rational and reasonable one would have to throw out a huge per cent of the bible which the early priest did not do.
So, you want to devolve a discussion of generic faith and rationality into a discussion of the internal consistency of the Abrahamic religious tradition? Okay. Genesis 11:9. It didn't take 1500 years to spread people across the world, nor 75,000. According to Genesis 11:9, God did it in an instant. The priests never threw out any percent of the Torah; they would have known the story of the Tower of Babel. Now can we get back on topic and discuss reason and faith, and how one does not negate the other?
Re:Religion (Score:5, Insightful)
Post an article on Slashdot showing a relationship between violent video games and violence, and watch the Slashdot crowd foam at the mouth. And I doubt it is the fundies who are doing the posting...
Re:Religion (Score:4, Insightful)
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> Blind Faith makes a virtue out of not thinking.
There, fixed that for you.
e.g. You have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow, since you have no proof (about future events) that it will, only a premise.
Re: Not a conflict (Score:3, Insightful)
You've just used "himself" exclusively, four times, as the generic pronoun referring to people of either sex.
Although this is correct, you have blasted anyone using it as sexist. What are we to conclude?
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What are we to conclude?
That you've missed the point. That was a deliberate self-reference and self-critique, presumably done to see who's paying attention.
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I've Worked with Some of the Top 1 %'ers (Score:3, Insightful)
...and boy, am I glad the bottom 99% is making the important decisions.
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"Therefore, ultimately, a person is left to his own beliefs to decide which study (if any) is correct."
And you just made the science is impotent argument. Fascinating. You never, ever just cancel out studies. This isn't math.
When faced with contradictory studies you don't ignore the science but rank the studies based on quality. Ignore the poor studies and weight the rest best on quality and derive your conclusion. And one of those conclusions may be that no conclusion can be made with the existing data.
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Define "healthy."
It is difficult to make scientific statements using only the ambiguous language we use every day. So much of science is semantics. Both sets of scientists might be correct: their research right, their methods correct, their data and conclusions spot on. But when the reporter asks "So is high fructose corn syrup healthy?" the scientist has to say "yes" or "no" not "An increase of 15% in intake of HFCS results in a a 99.5% correlation to an increased lipid growth in the lining of the..."
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Scientists are people as well - "choose not to accept scientific data because it conflicts with their predefined beliefs". They can have the same problem, and I would bet it happens a lot once careers, huge grants and academic prestige and huge egos get into play. A white lab coat does not make you a super-people, a god, infallible, incapable of being wrong, or corrupt, or bribe-able, or blackmail-able, or otherwise influenced adversely.
Correct.
The "scientific community" has been seriously wrong down through the ages on any number of subjects, the "consensus", the predetermined "beliefs" lead to rote conformity, a herd mentality, and the inability to admit facts and data that where staring them in the face.
You know who's been even more wrong than scientists, and who has actually killed people for disagreeing with them? Everyone else.
Here's the fallacy that's not only pissing me off, but making me incredibly concerned about the future of the US: the idea because scientists are people and are sometimes wrong, their opinions on topics in their field of study are worth exactly the same as that of a huckster on the street. No, they're worth more for the same reason you go to a doctor when you're sick, an a
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But with the Internet, everyone is an expert~
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So, it appears you're one of the people the article is talking about.
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A white lab coat does not make you a super-people, a god, infallible, incapable of being wrong, or corrupt, or bribe-able, or blackmail-able, or otherwise influenced adversely.
Yes and scientist know that very well, which is why science isn't build around authorities, but around such things as peer review and reproducibility. And more importantly, science is self correcting. If you find an reproducible experiment that conflicts with existing theories, the theories get extended or replaced with better ones.
Science simply is not a believe, it is a process to weed out the good hypothesis from the bad ones.
Re:Evolutionary biology (Score:4, Informative)
Evolutionary biology does? Really? I think what you've done is exhibit another aspect of psuedo-skepticism, the reading of headlines and assuming you've gained some understanding of underlying concepts. There are aspects of the theory, such as sexual selection, which can explain certain facets of behavior in generalistic terms, but you'd have to go to neurology and evolutionary psychology to find attempts to move beyond a very "big picture" notion of any species' behavior to specific claims, and indeed, plenty of biologists have some problems with the way that evolutionary concepts are extrapolated to explain specific behaviors. Indeed, one of the chief criticisms of Dawkins' memes is that it takes phenomena that are at best analogous to the genetic aspects of evolution and taking the analogy too far (something Dawkins himself consistently warns against throughout his publications for the layman).
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Gary Coleman's dead you insensitive clod!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/28/gary-coleman-dies-child-star [guardian.co.uk]
Re:To be fair... (Score:5, Insightful)
"...Scientists where shown to be just as and in some cases more likely to fail a given puzzle due to reluctance to let go of a given premise and try another one. So we should be careful to equate "scientist" with "right." Facts are facts as we know them. That isn't to say they should be ignored either but skepticism is just as healthy where science is concerned as it is where religion, philosophy, politics, or anything else is."
You did some nice linguistic ju-jitsu by changing "science" to "scientist" as if they're the same thing. They are not.
As I was just lecturing to my statistics class the other day: You can't ever prove anything in science; if anything, science works by disproving ideas. (This is classic Popperian stuff, and Einstein said the same thing.)
In effect: Science advances by two scientists getting in an argument and getting pissed at each other until one guy does some research convincing everyone else what an asshole the second guy was. The fact that most scientists are confident in their own hypotheses is immaterial to the discipline in the long term, once everyone else can replicate the same concrete tests of the natural world.