What's Your College Major Worth? 433
Hugh Pickens writes "The Chronicle of Higher Education reports that with tuition rising and a weak job market everyone seems to be debating the value of a college degree. Anthony P. Carnevale, director of the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce, says talking about the bachelor's degree in general doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because its financial payoff is heavily affected by what that degree is in and which college it is from. For the first time, researchers analyzed earnings based on 171 college majors and the differences are striking: For workers whose highest degree is a bachelor's, median incomes ranged from $29,000 for counseling-psychology majors to $120,000 for petroleum-engineering majors but the data also revealed earnings differences within groups of similar majors. Within the category of business majors, for instance, business-economics majors had the highest median pay, $75,000 while business-hospitality management earned $50,000. The study concludes that while there is a lot of variation in earnings over a lifetime, all undergraduate majors are worth it, even taking into account the cost of college and lost earnings with the lifetime advantage ranging from $1,090,000 for Engineering majors to $241,000 for Education majors. 'The bottom line is that getting a degree matters, but what you take matters more,' (PDF) concludes Carnevale." Last week we learned that dropping out of college could earn you $100,000 in start-up money for your business.
Finally some sanity (Score:5, Insightful)
As a grad student in engineering that has seen nearly all his friends at the BS, MS, and PhD levels all able to find good paying, stable jobs, I had grown pretty tired of the stream of /. articles from Ivy League tenured professors of religion ranting about how our education system is all wrong.
Re:Finally some sanity (Score:5, Interesting)
My thoughts exactly!
Yes a degree in liberal arts or religion isn't gonna carry you far... and yes there are extreme cases of CS majors flipping burgers and multi-mullionaire highschool dropouts, but in general I still think getting a degree results in a better job and more money later on in life. Good to see an article not trying to "rock the establishment"!
It maybe one of those bad corrolation dealies (people who can suck it up through a degree would have done better either way) .. but I suspect the paper still helps.
Re:Finally some sanity (Score:5, Funny)
Arts degree, please take one. (Arrow pointing to toilet paper.)
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Wealthier than average people are driven to succeed. They're driven to finish college and they are driven to find a good job. There is certainly correlation between education and income, but I see no reason to believe the formal education itself has any bearing on ones chances at financial success. It seems that the attributes one has drives them to finish college, then make lots of money. However, if you removed the option of college, they would still be driven to make lots of money.
Re:Finally some sanity (Score:4, Insightful)
Bullshit.
I know a lot of people who are not wealthier than average who work their ass off. They can't afford college, and are trying to save up enough so they can go there.
I have seen plenty of "wealthier than average" people work far less than most. In fact, the only reason they will have a job waiting for them is that Daddy has pull and has forced whatever company to hire them.
Wealthier than average people have it easier, that's why they succeed more. To them, a speeding ticket is chump change while for someone who works for a living might have to decide between letting the ticket slide and a bench warrant issued, or putting food on the table.
Heard of the phrase, "it takes money to make money?" It is very true. If parents are doing more than $150k a year, there is a lot of stuff they can do to make their kid have an easy life and not have to worry about basic things like food, roof over the head, health insurance, etc.
So, when people say "wealthier than average people are driven to succeed", that is absolute bullshit. It just means they have a head start due to rich parents. No more.
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I know a lot of people who are not wealthier than average who work their ass off. They can't afford college, and are trying to save up enough so they can go there.
Re:Finally some sanity (Score:4, Insightful)
You know, that'd be all nice and tidy if it weren't for the fact that not all people are driven by money. I personally know quite a few people who decided to go into a major they liked instead of a major that'd give them a bigger pay down the line.
That university seems to be considered as a gateway to high salaries irks me nearly as much as those who say a degree is useless on the job market. I'm not at university to get a fat cheque, I'm there because I like what I do and I have an insatiable thirst for knowledge which cannot unfortunately be quenched by just reading so-so books while working from 9 to 5 everyday at a random shop. I want to meet professors with a passion for what they do, I want to participate in the biggest drivers of research around the globe, I want to get to know people who also share that passion the same way that I do. I may be able to do some of this with a lot of work while avoiding university, but it would never, ever match what can be had there.
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I'd like to be a [doctor|lawyer|Indian chief] please. No, I don't have any qualifications. But I have a natural talent for [medicine|lying|the handjive] and a can-do attitude!
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It maybe one of those bad corrolation dealies (people who can suck it up through a degree would have done better either way) .. but I suspect the paper still helps.
And when you boil it down, that's what it ends up being:
Yes, there are rich authors and poor engineers, but that's statistics for you.
Re:Finally some sanity (Score:4, Interesting)
So what's the moral? Right now, we're coming off the finance bubble, where the ideal graduate had a degree either in business or communications, or economics, or english, or something social. The bubble really burst about 2-3 years ago, so all the folks who went in before it burst who came in with an expectation that a fluff degree and the right social connections were all that was required (and who consequently glutted the B-schools and the aforementioned other departments with fad-chasing n00bz) are coming out now with little do show for their time.
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We do FAA certifiable software, and:
"should" -> suggested, not really required; means the same as "may"
"shall" -> required
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Who says the wealth belongs to the country? That certainly isn't the case in my country, nor do I want it to be, despite the fact that I'm not in the top 2%.
Re:Finally some sanity (Score:5, Informative)
There is nothing wrong with going to school, but your friends would have good paying stable jobs with or without their education. The criticism of the education system is that they are selling a dream that doesn't exist. You cannot buy your way into a good job. There are still a million others reasons why you should go to college, but if your only concern is future profitability, you are wasting your time.
Re:Finally some sanity (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. I hate to be the "correlation is not causation" guy, but the combination of being smart and having the "engineering mindset" will take you far in life, whether or not you pick up a degree along the way.
I've heard the same story from engineers in several fields: they don't expect graduates with engineering degrees to have learned much that will be useful on the job (and some don't even care if your degree is in the same field, as long as it's some kind of engineering degree), they simply value an engineering degree as proof that you have that "engineering mindset".
Personally, I think that getting a breadth of perspective and exposure to many cultures, and many historical sounded-great-at-the-time-but-failed-horribly ideas is a very worthwhile thing, but American universities seem to be falling down even there, instead trying to indoctrinate students with the One True Culture ("diversity" is a great place to visit, but you'd better actually believe the Right Things yourself).
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The trouble is that the employers want very specific degrees to get the job in the first place. Without that, you can not ever display your "engineering mindset."
In my case I have over over ten years of experience in technical service work: fixing large copiers, high volume printers, and the like. Of course I also have the IT training and experience that goes with that skill-set.
I then returned to college and got my MBA. The result is that I am virtually unemployable. People who want technical workers spec
Re:Finally some sanity (Score:4, Informative)
It is a sad reality that lots of jobs actually deny you the ability to progress in management at most companies. The most prominent in my mind was a blog post telling the story of a young man who was interested in working in insurance; he repeatedly turned down jobs as an adjuster or agent because having worked as one would permanently brand him as "not management material". The comments to the post clearly stated that he was absolutely right to do so - if you don't start work in the management-trainee path, you'll never get on the path that leads to the C level. A few people told him to go get a job as a management trainee at a McDonald's, as it would do him more good.
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> There is nothing wrong with going to school, but your friends would have good paying stable jobs with or without their education.
Yes. At Wal-mart.
For most people, education does matter. It helps give them a clue and a credential that opens doors. Varying degrees of that education may be less relevant. However, it's important overall. It also helps to not have a PhD in philosophy.
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My mistake. I should have stated formal education. Education is important and successful people are always educating themselves, every single day of their lives. If you are not a successful person already, college isn't going to help you.
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TFA and common sense say that those who are smart and highly motivated are more likely to be financially successful, and will be more likely to seek challenge in higher education. There is no evidence that the education itself leads to financial success. Those same people will have the same chance of success no matter what life throws at them.
Someone whose only concern is money won't care about engineering, but there are tons of well paying and stable engineering jobs that do not require formal education. T
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"Someone whose only concern is money won't care about engineering, but there are tons of well paying and stable engineering jobs that do not require formal education."
In 1810, maybe. In 2011 in a developed country, I've never heard of a single one.
Re:Finally some sanity (Score:4, Interesting)
there are tons of well paying and stable engineering jobs that do not require formal education
In the US, all engineering jobs require a college degree. That's the result of lobbying from the engineering professional societies to define engineering as "those who have a PE certified by us and only us, oh and people that actually run the engines on trains, since they had that title long before any of our professional organizations were created."
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As a general rule, they aren't keeping the numbers down. They're just making sure there is a minimum standard.
That's false. It would be true if there were infinite numbers of spaces available and the standards were set to where people were rejected for not meeting some standards. Instead, the standards are changed every entry period because the number of applicants meeting the minimum standard greatly exceeds the number of available slots. That indicates an artificial scarcity determined by the number of seats available, not the level of applicants.
Professional licensing bodies (engineers/doctors) work to raise the floor.
They work to create barriers to entry, as the greater the barrie
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As a grad student in engineering that has seen nearly all his friends at the BS, MS, and PhD levels all able to find good paying, stable jobs
Let me guess, all your friends have a PhD thesis in the exact domain their employer is active ? It surely couldn't be cherry-picking by the employers in a high unemployment situation where workers desperately try to signal [wikipedia.org] their higher commitment to the profession and ability to follow instructions, with only marginal improvement in their skills from said degrees ? The later would surely explain why the exact same curricula gets you widely different salary outcomes depending on how expensive the school was.
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I'm a bit baffled why you think "signaling higher commitment" is some kind of silly thing
It's a very silly thing when you are risking 4 years of your life and your financial freedom just to prove to the employer you have no other career option. School should be for learning, or at least that's the theory. The actual reasons to go to school currently are:
- signaling, in the economic sense; the more elitist (expensive) the school, the better the signal
- peering with future professionals in the field; ditto
- learning
No one is denying getting a degree correlates with getting a nice paycheck. Proble
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It's a really good idea to spread out the Engineering curriculum over 5-6 years. I only got an AA my first time through college before realizing I had no idea what I wanted to do in life, and joined the Air Force. Four years of grunt work later taught me the value of getting a worthwhile degree, and since all my general education requirements were out of the way (did all that English and Social Science crap the first time) - I was able to focus entirely on working my way up through the math and science cl
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As a former Light Infantryman, I have a hard time with this:
"Air Force"
"grunt work"
Unless you were a TAC-P or PJ...
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The joke at my university was "Engineering - the worst four or best seven years of your life."
I had a floormate who did engineering, and the school has no shame about ruthlessly beating the students down - extra courseloads, little to no choice in courses (or even scheduling), and they just keep waving that promise of a big paycheck at the far end.
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Medical and law schools are a bitch to get into.
Engineering school is easy to get into. Your odds of making it to sophomore year are much less then 50%. IIRC enrollment in first semester physics went from standing room only to a less then half full lecture hall in about a month.
I did two engineering BSs in 9 semesters (lots of overlap). It's not that bad.
Anybody who is surprised that business majors don't learn shit wasn't paying any attention to how they live while students.
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If you are on the normal track, most of the core classes aren't really develop a mastery in 16 weeks, it is reinforcement of concepts between classes, semesters, and even high school. Not doing calculus in high school would put anybody at a serious disadvantage. I would recommend someone take a year and do the first two semesters of calc and physics, and maybe get non-core classes out of the way at a junior college. Then go to university and re-take the second level classes. You then have two full years to
And the ones without job!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:And the ones without job!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
They didn't do enough research / made a bad choice?
Ok, that's really not fair. Job markets change dramatically over short periods of time, but I still see a _lot_ of people getting degrees in things with absolutely no plan for how to turn it into a job when they graduate.
I almost think this should be a requirement for any student loan... write an essay detailing how, in the current job market, this degree will result in a decent job. Look at local job ads, maybe even call a few up and see what kind of education they are expecting people to have and such. Are you willing to move? If so, where? What's the job market like over there?
Not saying people shouldn't persue something they are pationate about, but getting your degree in music therapy may not be the best choice.
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Re:And the ones without job!!! (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah, the methodology on this sucks. They're counting everybody up to 65 years old, and those over 45-50 went to school when it was cheap, easily available side jobs would pay your tuition, and you could have your student loans (if any) discharged in bankruptcy. The relevant measure today is "will I be able to make my loan payments throughout my first decade out of school?", "how fucked will I be if it turns out I can't?", "how long will it take me to pay off those loans while still eating everyday and sleeping indoors?", "what is the net present value of all the payments I will make over that period?" and "does the data show that this particular course of study at this particular school is a better investment of time and money than other opportunities?".
I think looking at those questions, for many of those currently contemplating college it really isn't a good deal on the terms offered today. The education bubble is going to burst someday - it isn't affordable, the schools and student-loan pushers are bilking the students as hard as they can, and one can get a better education by reading and doing, and more prestige by teaming up to start a company. Why take a mortgage out on your brain so you can beg employers for the opportunity to be treated like a Dilbert?
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From http://stories-etc.com/engineers.htm [stories-etc.com]:
The graduate with a science degree asks, "Why does it work?"
The graduate with an engineering degree asks, "How does it work?"
The graduate with accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?"
The graduate with an arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that?"
Grain of salt (Score:5, Insightful)
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I think typically if you get a Bachelors in psychology you'd either go for a Masters related to counseling or go onto a PhD.
A large part of the problem is that we let HR jack asses handle the hiring decisions rather than people who contribute something to the welfare of the company. Beyond just the degree, the institution also matters. I personally wouldn't hire anybody with a degree from most of those private for profit schools, just on principle. Even without going the ivy league route, some public school
I have a BA in detective defecalization (Score:2)
No shit, Sherlock.
Higher Education is in a Massive Bubble (Score:5, Insightful)
Everyone knows that higher education is in a bubble. This type of article just show that everyone now recognizes it.
The causes are clear. The government subsidizes loans, making it easy for students to take on more debt and for colleges to jack up tuition. Companies just use a degree as a proxy for basic competency. The list can go on.
However, the real question is how will the bubble burst. What will happen? I have no idea. But it can't go on. You can't have 18 year olds wrecking their entire financial future for a degree.
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Personally, I wish that had been apparent years back when I was getting my bachelors. It wasn't until I got out and found that I needed more education or experience for most jobs, even entry level jobs required both, that I realized what a predicament I was in. It does tend to get a bit better once you push through to a Masters or even just a Masters' level certificate, as there are fewer people to compete with, and it's less likely that somebody is going to be able to finish it and still be completely wort
What percentage graduate? (Score:3)
I looked through the stats in the pdf, and it looks like only about 40% on average graduate.
Presumably they did however take out loans while they were studying so you have millions out there with student loan debt, but not even a degree to boost earnings.
Does indeed seem like there might be a problem.
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Everyone knows that higher education is in a bubble...However, the real question is how will the bubble burst. What will happen? I have no idea. But it can't go on. You can't have 18 year olds wrecking their entire financial future for a degree.
You can't? Says who, the debt-riddled Government, living trillions of dollars in debt?
The same organization who doesn't really care about "qualifying" you much for that college debt loan, and doesn't really care how long you take to pay it back, as long as you "pinky-swear" that you will...someday?
With our own country leading by example, don't think we really have to wonder why peoples finances are so screwed up these days...Massive amounts of debt is simply the American way, and bubbles are obviously fixe
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And still he is only aiming to become a mere employee.
Do what you love doing (Score:2)
The plural of anecdote is not data, but... (Score:4, Interesting)
This economy sucks.
Re:The plural of anecdote is not data, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm doing contract work and earning less take-home pay (after you figure in self-employment taxes) than I did the summer after I graduated from high school.
You're doing the wrong comparison. The relevant comparison is not "with a college degree, now (in a bum economy)" vs. "without a college degree, then (in a good economy)", but "with a college degree, now (in a bum economy)" vs. "without a college degree, now (in a bum economy)". The problem is that without a time machine, we can't do that comparison for your particular case.
But we can look at how people with and without a college degree are doing, and it turns out [npr.org] that unemployment figures for college-educated people are less than half that of those with only a high school diploma.
So if you're doing poorly because you can't find any decent work, even with a college degree, there's a fair probability that you wouldn't have *any* job if all you had was a high school diploma. I have no clue what you were doing the summer after high school, but it's a good bet that whatever it was wouldn't have been sustainable - that is, chances are you couldn't have made it a full time, long term job, or even if you could, you would have been handed a pink slip the moment the economy turned south.
So look at the glass not as three quarters empty, but as a quarter full.
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Good question.
My little sister got her MFA last year.
I think she spent 6 years in school.
Most of it on out of state tuition.
Loans, grants and the like. Dad sure didn't have the funds to pay for it.
Her debt is $175,000
still more than she will ever be able to repay but not $200k
I think that you over paid.
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Value decreasing? (Score:3, Interesting)
In 2002 the US Census Bureau calculated that the value of an average degree over a lifetime was $2.1 million [census.gov]
Has the value dropped that much in 10 years? Taking inflation into account, the value's gone from roughly $2.6 million down to less than $1 million? I know we're comparing average to median here, but I have a hard time believing Warren Buffett et al are skewing the numbers by a factor of 2.5+.
Re:Value decreasing? (Score:4)
The problem is that you're out of the work force and hence not gaining experience, if you're not fortunate you're probably not gaining much in the way of networking. I had a really hard time making the transition because I had worked in high turn over fields prior to going to college, as a result when I got out of school I had a really hard time getting references just to apply for jobs. Additionally since work study was only for certain subsets of people on financial aid and I went to a school in the middle of nowhere, the chances of working during the school year were pretty slim. On top of which I had to contend with applications which were very narrowly defined in terms of the degrees that they'd accept, even if there was no particular reason for it.
What's particularly nasty is that if you don't manage to get into your field of choice very quickly you end up losing more and more ground versus the idealized model that the census is presumably using. Which means anybody that's graduated in the last couple years that hasn't managed to find something in their field is likely to fall further behind, they probably will eventually catch up, but losing that half mill wouldn't be surprising at all.
Trade-school mentality (Score:5, Insightful)
The point of getting a degree from college isn't to learn vocational skills, it's to more generally broaden yourself and to learn how to learn. The whole notion that your degree should directly influence your earnings is reflective of how today many people go to college to get vocational training. If you want to teach mathematics, you shouldn't get an education degree in college, you should get a mathematics degree, and then go on to teaching from there. If you want to go into business, learn some more fundamental skills like statistics and critical thinking, intern over your summers, and then go to business school for your MBA.
Perhaps even more troubling is the notion that the sole goal in life is to make more money. What about doing a job that you enjoy, even if it pays less?
Re:Trade-school mentality (Score:4, Insightful)
The "make more money" is really popular among college students. They don't seem to fathom the possibility that they could end up hating their job some day.
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Case in point: finance. Back when I started college ('06), finance was the way to be. Sure, banking wasn't what it was in the 80's, but the industry had recovered significantly since the early 00's and there appeared to be no end in sight to growth. I remember reading statistic
Re:Trade-school mentality (Score:5, Insightful)
My pa always used to say, "you can live to work or you can work to live." I suppose the former are more interested in doing a job that they enjoy and the latter are more interested in a job with good earnings. Neither philosophy is inherently better, as long as you choose the one that reflects what you're trying to get out of life.
Re:Trade-school mentality (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Trade-school mentality (Score:5, Interesting)
"If making more money isn't the point of a college degree, why should the taxpayers subsidize you?"
Thomas Jefferson -- "I think by far the most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness...Preach, my dear Sir, a crusade against ignorance; establish & improve the law for educating the common people. Let our countrymen know that the people alone can protect us against these evils [tyranny, oppression, etc.] and that the tax which will be paid for this purpose is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings, priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance." [Letter to George Wythe, 1786 August 13]
More Jefferson quotes on education: http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/quotations-education [monticello.org]
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Re:Trade-school mentality (Score:4, Insightful)
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No, that's what high school is for.
It's sad that so many teen waste their high school years on stoopid stuff, but equally sad that our society expects and encourages this, and that our high school educational system has been reduced to a holding pen.
-- 77IM
Re:Trade-school mentality (Score:5, Interesting)
A college degree is about making you an educated individual. I had a friend in college, who admitted that all she wanted to do is be a house wife. But for her, 10 grand a year in tuition was worth it, because she didn't want to be a moron for the rest of her life. What kind of role model are you to your kids if you can't communicate well, don't understand history, can't appreciate literature and art? What kind of voter are you if you can't think critically, or if you don't understand politics and science? Can you manage your financial decisions without and understanding of math and business? Think about what a better neighbor, parent, and traveler you would be, if you could speak a foreign language.
Your technical degree can make you all the money in the world, but actually being educated is what will improve life for you, your family, and your neighbors. Ideally high school would teach you these core skills, but kids just aren't mature enough at that age to do it.
Re:Trade-school mentality (Score:5, Insightful)
But for her, 10 grand a year in tuition was worth it, because she didn't want to be a moron for the rest of her life. What kind of role model are you to your kids if you can't communicate well, don't understand history, can't appreciate literature and art? What kind of voter are you if you can't think critically, or if you don't understand politics and science? Can you manage your financial decisions without and understanding of math and business? Think about what a better neighbor, parent, and traveler you would be, if you could speak a foreign language.
Why do I need a university to learn these things? Fair enough if your friend just preferred taking classes to independent study, but you make seem as though anyone who doesn't go to university is a moron. You imply that the university is the font of knowledge without which you are doomed to a life of ignorance. How can we learn without the intellectual elite vetting our every educational experience? How can we determine right from wrong without an authority to define it for us? How can we think critically without someone to tell us if we've done it correctly?
No matter how you learn, education comes from within. A teacher tries to be helpful, but it is your own effort that frees you from ignorance. Understanding this is the difference between being a slave to your tuition and being a free person able to choose your own path.
Bing! Bing! Bing! (Score:4, Funny)
What kind of voter are you if you can't think critically, or if you don't understand politics and science? Can you manage your financial decisions without and understanding of math and business? Think about what a better neighbor, parent, and traveler you would be, if you could speak a foreign language.
Answer: an ethnocentric American Republican.
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The point of getting a degree from college isn't to learn vocational skills, it's to more generally broaden yourself and to learn how to learn.
Sure. And when are you going to get the time to learn what you actually need to learn for a real job, once you get out of college? One can get an education and a vocation at the same time. There's a lot of synergy between education and training. So why not learn how to do something useful while you're "learning how to learn?"
Perhaps even more troubling is the notion that the sole goal in life is to make more money. What about doing a job that you enjoy, even if it pays less?
So what if people want to be wealthier and are willing to make sacrifices to do so? What makes it "troubling?" Do you really think that education can be an adequate substitute for good
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No, actually, it's reflective of how huge of an economic burden student loans are, and hence requiring tremendous rewards to justify the burden and risk.
Of course, I've never seen a study that attacks the issue head-on. Even this study makes no attempt at cause and effect, and merely states those who go to college happen to make more money, never mind pre-
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Ad-hominem? (Score:3)
What terribly useless degree did I get? I got a B.S. in biology. I have a Masters in genetics. I'm currently in a top PhD program in biology. I have two publications, both from undergraduate research. But my qualifications have no relation to my argument - I learned that in philosophy 101, reasoning & argument.
The more relevant point: I went to a small liberal arts school. I took classes in music, English, philosophy, the sciences, foreign languages, economics... and I'm a more informed, well-rounded pe
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The more relevant point: I went to a small liberal arts school. I took classes in music, English, philosophy, the sciences, foreign languages, economics... and I'm a more informed, well-rounded person because of it.
You apparently also learned how to be pretty full of yourself...which, though it might turn of some people, will prepare you to become a C-level executive!
Degree is worthless if there are no jobs (Score:2)
Nursing is an interesting example of this problem. 5-6 years ago the industry was screaming for help, so tons of new nursing programs opened at universities and were quickly filled. Today, those nursing grads are having a horrible time getting work. It's not like you can just put your chosen career on hold for 2-3 years while the economy recovers.
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$100,000 for dropping? (Score:3)
and maybe I am dumb, but I learned a LOT my last two years of college. Those were the hardest years (as far as my major was concerned), and also where I got to take the most interesting classes like AI and compiler design. I strongly suggest not dropping out of school. On the other hand it worked for Bill Gates.
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This whole notion stinks.... (Score:2)
Pretty interesting study, (Score:5, Interesting)
once you get past the race and gender tables. The actual facts about the comparative values of various majors starts around Table 30.
The problem with looking at this from a race/gender perspective is that the data tells us almost nothing about why there is a difference between these categories. For example, the study reveals that Petroleum is a specialty major, that 100% of the people who majored in it are men, and that this major has the highest median income.
OK, facts noted. Does this mean that men are better suited to be Petroleum Engineers than women? There's no way to tell from this data set. Maybe women would be great petroleum engineers, but they don't choose it because it sounds like it would be uninteresting or unpleasant or too inflexible.
What we _can learn from the data is that if you want a major that will bring in a steady, terrific income, Petroleum Engineering and other specialty majors are pretty awesome. The Study makes it pretty clear that people with "hard" majors make about twice as much as people with "soft" majors, so if money is your thing, pick a hard major. Put another way, if what you love to do is a soft major, prepare yourself for a life where you will never be tempted by the siren call of enormous wealth.
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What we _can learn from the data is that if you want a major that will bring in a steady, terrific income, Petroleum Engineering and other specialty majors are pretty awesome. The Study makes it pretty clear that people with "hard" majors make about twice as much as people with "soft" majors, so if money is your thing, pick a hard major. Put another way, if what you love to do is a soft major, prepare yourself for a life where you will never be tempted by the siren call of enormous wealth.
Actually you cannot learn that such a major will bring in such an income, but rather that the people in the study who have that major had that income. The study does not show that a particular choice results in a particular outcome, but rather than certain choices are correlated with certain outcomes. The reason they are correlated is not obviously clear. Would those people who chose PEng have had similar outcomes in a different career due to their own personalities/drives/interests?
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There needs to be more apprenticeships in IT / CS! (Score:2)
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Old Data (Score:2)
By definition, old data cannot keep up with rapid new trends.
What does it say about our society... (Score:3, Insightful)
that of all possible career paths, education has the lowest financial incentive? What does this portend for our future?
It's an arms race (Score:2)
College studies don't help that much, but not having the sheepskin now hurts a lot as it is used to filter on conformity, race, parental investment, age, and some other things, many of which are now illegal to ask about on job applications...
Lots of links here:
http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/2009-October/005379.html [listcultures.org]
http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/2009-November/005584.html [listcultures.org]
http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch_listcultures.org/2009-November [listcultures.org]
Re:Well that's convenient. (Score:5, Insightful)
FWIW, you can get a minor in what you love, and a major in what will earn. No one is forcing you to gear your entire curriculum to the Benjamins.
I did that eons ago, with a major in EE, but a minor in history. I've long since translated the engineering skills to the IT world, but the history I still have and treasure. It happens that I love the engineering side of things, so it fit me in either case (yes, I still have a bench at home, though time doesn't permit me much for playing at it).
If the field you truly love doesn't make any money, so what? Be happy with the less luxurious lifestyle, but living a life that matches your passions. FFS, if you love doing archaeology, even though the life would be pretty poverty-stricken, then by all means *do it*.
The guy who dies with a smile on his face is the one who wins, not the one whose bank account is the biggest.
This. (Score:4, Interesting)
Frankly, it's taking a fair amount of discipline not to get four or five degrees, simply because I haven't run out of fields which absolutely fascinate me. Along the way, I'm finding very few classes I don't actually enjoy, and it's certainly more fun than real work.
If I was just in it for the money, I'd be a mainframe expert -- it's easy, but there are few enough of them (because no one wants to do it) that it's also very well paid. But then I would hate my life. As it is, I'm likely to end up in some sort of software development, but that's not going to stop me from studying the more interesting bits of biology and cosmology, because the universe is awesome.
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what about the guy who dies in debt, which he could never pay out, because he went to a university based out of fear, that is instilled into anybody today, that without a degree, he won't find any job, never mind a job in a field of their liking?
My point is that it is totally unnecessary to go to a university for most people, they are pressured into it, that's why they take courses that are pointless and useless - they never should have been in the university in the first place!
They are there, because of go
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Agreed, on many, many fronts.
I know folks in the IT realm (in many disciplines) who have nothing more than a high school diploma and a couple of industry certifications, but (years later, mind) command one hell of a salary due to experience and demonstrable levels of skill. I have a former student who has nothing more than a 2-year degree, but is pulling in six figures working for Juniper as a high-end technical consultant.
Certainly, folks like the Intel Corporation will shred your resume w/o a second thoug
Re:not much (Score:5, Insightful)
I kinda said this in another post, but I think it should be a requirement of a student loan to research and detail how you plan to turn your degree into an actual job. As you said, a lot of people getting degrees are doing so because they've been told degree = better job. This is true where degree = computer science or engineering. This is generally not true where degree = music therapy.
Not saying oddball degrees can't result in a job.. and if you are _really_ pationate about something like that, then I think people should go for it... just do some research and figure out how you are going to make a living with it _before_ getting the loan.
I would also note that the ability to live very frugally for a few years after graduating and working a McJob throughout school/summers does a lot for avoiding the lifelong crippling debt thing.
Re:not much (Score:5, Funny)
well, I believe some sociology major with mod points just went over the comments here, thus you can see the results....
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What about my bachelor's in human services that's the equivalent of an MSW for the feds?
Do you REALLY want someone taking care of you/your kids/your parents WITHOUT a college degree?
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Well, what are you going to do with it?
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Well, what are you going to do with it?
I knew that was coming and I imagine you know what I will say. I have no plans for a job, maybe teaching or writing? I'm a musician in my spare time and I dabble in programming (why else would I be here?) and I actually have a pretty good set-up for school. I live in Montreal and pay a very minimal amount for university (about $1500 a semester, cheapest in Canada) and I'm at a small Liberal Arts College. All we do is read literature, philosophy, history and political science and then discuss it/write pa
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Quit school. Read Shakespeare on your own. Work as a programmer (you wanted to learn languages, right?) or a translator until you figure out what you *really* want to go to school for (theatre?).
You should also emigrate, there are better countries than Canada to be poor in.
Getting odd jobs and bare subsistence wages is not living the dream, it is preventing you from doing what you love. Money does not equal happiness, but you tell me that after the late shift at Starbucks.
Re:Q... (Score:5, Interesting)
Develop a technical bent and become a technical writer?
Develop a journalistic bent and become a journalist?
Become a secretary, writing out reports on behalf of, and to be read by, people with other skills?
There's an astonishingly large number of very bad writers out there and the one thing a BA in English MIGHT be able to convince people of is that you're able to string sentences together.
Re:does it include (Score:5, Insightful)
Uh, Bill gates and Sergei Brin were smart enough (and worked hard enough in school) to get into the most selective undergraduate, and graduate programs in the world.
Re:unemployable majors? (Score:4, Interesting)
There are lots of jobs out there that open up just because you have a degree. Several of the managers at my work turned out to have weird degrees like art history rather than business. Even though a friend of mine is good with computer and has experience, he was only eligible for his current job because he had a history degree also. My uncle with a degree in fine arts ended up the plant manager because he had a degree and the other candidates didn't. While the most important things in getting a job are connections, experience, and then education as last, a degree, any degree, is often a bullet point on many jobs and if nothing else will put you ahead of those without. If you have the connections and the experience, just about any degree of suitable level will do.