What's Your College Major Worth? 433
Hugh Pickens writes "The Chronicle of Higher Education reports that with tuition rising and a weak job market everyone seems to be debating the value of a college degree. Anthony P. Carnevale, director of the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce, says talking about the bachelor's degree in general doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because its financial payoff is heavily affected by what that degree is in and which college it is from. For the first time, researchers analyzed earnings based on 171 college majors and the differences are striking: For workers whose highest degree is a bachelor's, median incomes ranged from $29,000 for counseling-psychology majors to $120,000 for petroleum-engineering majors but the data also revealed earnings differences within groups of similar majors. Within the category of business majors, for instance, business-economics majors had the highest median pay, $75,000 while business-hospitality management earned $50,000. The study concludes that while there is a lot of variation in earnings over a lifetime, all undergraduate majors are worth it, even taking into account the cost of college and lost earnings with the lifetime advantage ranging from $1,090,000 for Engineering majors to $241,000 for Education majors. 'The bottom line is that getting a degree matters, but what you take matters more,' (PDF) concludes Carnevale." Last week we learned that dropping out of college could earn you $100,000 in start-up money for your business.
Finally some sanity (Score:5, Insightful)
As a grad student in engineering that has seen nearly all his friends at the BS, MS, and PhD levels all able to find good paying, stable jobs, I had grown pretty tired of the stream of /. articles from Ivy League tenured professors of religion ranting about how our education system is all wrong.
And the ones without job!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Grain of salt (Score:5, Insightful)
Higher Education is in a Massive Bubble (Score:5, Insightful)
Everyone knows that higher education is in a bubble. This type of article just show that everyone now recognizes it.
The causes are clear. The government subsidizes loans, making it easy for students to take on more debt and for colleges to jack up tuition. Companies just use a degree as a proxy for basic competency. The list can go on.
However, the real question is how will the bubble burst. What will happen? I have no idea. But it can't go on. You can't have 18 year olds wrecking their entire financial future for a degree.
Re:Well that's convenient. (Score:5, Insightful)
FWIW, you can get a minor in what you love, and a major in what will earn. No one is forcing you to gear your entire curriculum to the Benjamins.
I did that eons ago, with a major in EE, but a minor in history. I've long since translated the engineering skills to the IT world, but the history I still have and treasure. It happens that I love the engineering side of things, so it fit me in either case (yes, I still have a bench at home, though time doesn't permit me much for playing at it).
If the field you truly love doesn't make any money, so what? Be happy with the less luxurious lifestyle, but living a life that matches your passions. FFS, if you love doing archaeology, even though the life would be pretty poverty-stricken, then by all means *do it*.
The guy who dies with a smile on his face is the one who wins, not the one whose bank account is the biggest.
Re:And the ones without job!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
They didn't do enough research / made a bad choice?
Ok, that's really not fair. Job markets change dramatically over short periods of time, but I still see a _lot_ of people getting degrees in things with absolutely no plan for how to turn it into a job when they graduate.
I almost think this should be a requirement for any student loan... write an essay detailing how, in the current job market, this degree will result in a decent job. Look at local job ads, maybe even call a few up and see what kind of education they are expecting people to have and such. Are you willing to move? If so, where? What's the job market like over there?
Not saying people shouldn't persue something they are pationate about, but getting your degree in music therapy may not be the best choice.
Re:not much (Score:5, Insightful)
I kinda said this in another post, but I think it should be a requirement of a student loan to research and detail how you plan to turn your degree into an actual job. As you said, a lot of people getting degrees are doing so because they've been told degree = better job. This is true where degree = computer science or engineering. This is generally not true where degree = music therapy.
Not saying oddball degrees can't result in a job.. and if you are _really_ pationate about something like that, then I think people should go for it... just do some research and figure out how you are going to make a living with it _before_ getting the loan.
I would also note that the ability to live very frugally for a few years after graduating and working a McJob throughout school/summers does a lot for avoiding the lifelong crippling debt thing.
Trade-school mentality (Score:5, Insightful)
The point of getting a degree from college isn't to learn vocational skills, it's to more generally broaden yourself and to learn how to learn. The whole notion that your degree should directly influence your earnings is reflective of how today many people go to college to get vocational training. If you want to teach mathematics, you shouldn't get an education degree in college, you should get a mathematics degree, and then go on to teaching from there. If you want to go into business, learn some more fundamental skills like statistics and critical thinking, intern over your summers, and then go to business school for your MBA.
Perhaps even more troubling is the notion that the sole goal in life is to make more money. What about doing a job that you enjoy, even if it pays less?
Re:The plural of anecdote is not data, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm doing contract work and earning less take-home pay (after you figure in self-employment taxes) than I did the summer after I graduated from high school.
You're doing the wrong comparison. The relevant comparison is not "with a college degree, now (in a bum economy)" vs. "without a college degree, then (in a good economy)", but "with a college degree, now (in a bum economy)" vs. "without a college degree, now (in a bum economy)". The problem is that without a time machine, we can't do that comparison for your particular case.
But we can look at how people with and without a college degree are doing, and it turns out [npr.org] that unemployment figures for college-educated people are less than half that of those with only a high school diploma.
So if you're doing poorly because you can't find any decent work, even with a college degree, there's a fair probability that you wouldn't have *any* job if all you had was a high school diploma. I have no clue what you were doing the summer after high school, but it's a good bet that whatever it was wouldn't have been sustainable - that is, chances are you couldn't have made it a full time, long term job, or even if you could, you would have been handed a pink slip the moment the economy turned south.
So look at the glass not as three quarters empty, but as a quarter full.
Re:Finally some sanity (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. I hate to be the "correlation is not causation" guy, but the combination of being smart and having the "engineering mindset" will take you far in life, whether or not you pick up a degree along the way.
I've heard the same story from engineers in several fields: they don't expect graduates with engineering degrees to have learned much that will be useful on the job (and some don't even care if your degree is in the same field, as long as it's some kind of engineering degree), they simply value an engineering degree as proof that you have that "engineering mindset".
Personally, I think that getting a breadth of perspective and exposure to many cultures, and many historical sounded-great-at-the-time-but-failed-horribly ideas is a very worthwhile thing, but American universities seem to be falling down even there, instead trying to indoctrinate students with the One True Culture ("diversity" is a great place to visit, but you'd better actually believe the Right Things yourself).
Re:Trade-school mentality (Score:4, Insightful)
The "make more money" is really popular among college students. They don't seem to fathom the possibility that they could end up hating their job some day.
Re:Trade-school mentality (Score:5, Insightful)
My pa always used to say, "you can live to work or you can work to live." I suppose the former are more interested in doing a job that they enjoy and the latter are more interested in a job with good earnings. Neither philosophy is inherently better, as long as you choose the one that reflects what you're trying to get out of life.
What does it say about our society... (Score:3, Insightful)
that of all possible career paths, education has the lowest financial incentive? What does this portend for our future?
Re:does it include (Score:5, Insightful)
Uh, Bill gates and Sergei Brin were smart enough (and worked hard enough in school) to get into the most selective undergraduate, and graduate programs in the world.
Re:Finally some sanity (Score:4, Insightful)
Bullshit.
I know a lot of people who are not wealthier than average who work their ass off. They can't afford college, and are trying to save up enough so they can go there.
I have seen plenty of "wealthier than average" people work far less than most. In fact, the only reason they will have a job waiting for them is that Daddy has pull and has forced whatever company to hire them.
Wealthier than average people have it easier, that's why they succeed more. To them, a speeding ticket is chump change while for someone who works for a living might have to decide between letting the ticket slide and a bench warrant issued, or putting food on the table.
Heard of the phrase, "it takes money to make money?" It is very true. If parents are doing more than $150k a year, there is a lot of stuff they can do to make their kid have an easy life and not have to worry about basic things like food, roof over the head, health insurance, etc.
So, when people say "wealthier than average people are driven to succeed", that is absolute bullshit. It just means they have a head start due to rich parents. No more.
Re:Finally some sanity (Score:3, Insightful)
Who says the wealth belongs to the country? That certainly isn't the case in my country, nor do I want it to be, despite the fact that I'm not in the top 2%.
Re:Trade-school mentality (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Finally some sanity (Score:4, Insightful)
You know, that'd be all nice and tidy if it weren't for the fact that not all people are driven by money. I personally know quite a few people who decided to go into a major they liked instead of a major that'd give them a bigger pay down the line.
That university seems to be considered as a gateway to high salaries irks me nearly as much as those who say a degree is useless on the job market. I'm not at university to get a fat cheque, I'm there because I like what I do and I have an insatiable thirst for knowledge which cannot unfortunately be quenched by just reading so-so books while working from 9 to 5 everyday at a random shop. I want to meet professors with a passion for what they do, I want to participate in the biggest drivers of research around the globe, I want to get to know people who also share that passion the same way that I do. I may be able to do some of this with a lot of work while avoiding university, but it would never, ever match what can be had there.
Re:Trade-school mentality (Score:5, Insightful)
But for her, 10 grand a year in tuition was worth it, because she didn't want to be a moron for the rest of her life. What kind of role model are you to your kids if you can't communicate well, don't understand history, can't appreciate literature and art? What kind of voter are you if you can't think critically, or if you don't understand politics and science? Can you manage your financial decisions without and understanding of math and business? Think about what a better neighbor, parent, and traveler you would be, if you could speak a foreign language.
Why do I need a university to learn these things? Fair enough if your friend just preferred taking classes to independent study, but you make seem as though anyone who doesn't go to university is a moron. You imply that the university is the font of knowledge without which you are doomed to a life of ignorance. How can we learn without the intellectual elite vetting our every educational experience? How can we determine right from wrong without an authority to define it for us? How can we think critically without someone to tell us if we've done it correctly?
No matter how you learn, education comes from within. A teacher tries to be helpful, but it is your own effort that frees you from ignorance. Understanding this is the difference between being a slave to your tuition and being a free person able to choose your own path.