Canadian IP Lobbyists Caught Faking Counterfeit Data 118
An anonymous reader writes "The Canadian IP Council, the Canadian Chamber of Commerce's IP lobby arm, has been caught floating false claims about the scope of counterfeiting in Canada. Recent claims include citing a figure based on numbers the FBI rejects ($22.5 billion), a figure the Canadian police won't support ($30 billion), and when pressed on the issue, it now points to yet another source that upon review indicates it fabricated its claims."
So if they're faking counterfeit data (Score:5, Funny)
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In this case, two wrongs don't make a right - just a wronger wrong.
Re:So if they're faking counterfeit data (Score:5, Funny)
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What, you don't expect them to simply copy legitimate data, do you?
Perhaps they were worried about being sued for copyright infringement!
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I didn't know that Canada was worth $30bn
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Aha - but we make up for that in volume!
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We will be once we get our Canadarm back from those losers who were too cheap to build their own.
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No, they just didn't use REAL counterfeit data.
Re:So if they're faking counterfeit data (Score:5, Informative)
Let's put this into perspective:
There are an estimated 34 million Canadian citizens as of 2011. The fabricated estimates would suggest that, on average, each Canadian is responsible for $660 to $1000 worth of counterfeit goods per year, whether produced locally or imported from overseas.
Now, I don't know about you, but I personally don't bring back.$1000 worth of cheap chinese gadgets on annual trips, nor do I burn $1000 worth of movies to DVD-R for resale, though the latter was quite popular a few years back, mostly by *drumroll* unemployed immigrants who couldn't care less about copyright. I know, because those parasitic bastards would come to my store every few days for a spindle of my cheapest DVD media. Today it's probably much less popular, given how easy it is to find and download anything, and the ever-increasing broadband penetration.
So what's left ? Are there massive counterfeiting ops racking up huge volumes, to make up for lack of counterfeiting within the general populace ? Or is the IP Council crying wolf to secure handouts and protectionist legislation ? I'm no expert, but history leads me to believe the latter is the truth.
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"I know, because those parasitic bastards would come to my store every few days for a spindle of my cheapest DVD media."
It sounds more like you *assumed*, because those parasitic bastards etc. etc. Unless one of them came right out and told you that's what they were for.
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Re:So if they're faking counterfeit data (Score:4, Insightful)
well if it was his store, wouldn't he know what the parasitic bastards were buying? maybe he rang them up.
I saw you leave a store once with a tub of vaseline and a box of rubber gloves. Now you claim you bought this stuff to dye your hair, but we all know what you really do in your spare time.
Actually this isn't a bad metaphor to explain why "you have nothing to hide" isn't actually a compelling argument about losing our privacy.
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I saw you leave a store once with a tub of vaseline and a box of rubber gloves. Now you claim you bought this stuff to dye your hair, but we all know what you really do in your spare time.
Finger painting?
DVD Spindle Usage (Score:2)
>> "I know, because those parasitic bastards would come to my store every few days for a spindle of my cheapest DVD media."
> It sounds more like you *assumed*, because those parasitic bastards etc. etc. Unless one of them came right out and told you that's what they were for.
I'm sure they were coming into his store every few days for a spindle of cheap DVDs in order to take more video of their family dog.
Although if they're parasites, what is he who makes money on the parasites?
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I'm sure they were coming into his store every few days for a spindle of cheap DVDs in order to take more video of their family dog.
Aspiring 3D artists will go through spindles of DVDs either for making demo reels to find work and/or to back up gigs of data they generated to make those reels. These days hard disc space is generous enough to not really rely on removable media, but it wasn't that long ago where you needed DVD-Rs to maintain the output.
Although if they're parasites, what is he who makes money on the parasites?
They could be telling him to his face that they're downloading movie rips of stuff they've never seen or paid for before and he still wouldn't be in the wrong for selling him those spindles
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> Aspiring 3D artists will go through spindles of DVDs either for making demo reels to find work and/or to back up gigs of data they generated to make those reels. These days hard disc space is generous enough to not really rely on removable media, but it wasn't that long ago where you needed DVD-Rs to maintain the output.
Fair point, although I'd be surprised if local buying was cheapest for that. I find piracy by far the more likely possibility, although there are legal non-infringing uses.
> They co
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Fair point, although I'd be surprised if local buying was cheapest for that. I find piracy by far the more likely possibility, although there are legal non-infringing uses.
Part of his statement was that this was a few years ago, I'm assuming this is around 2005. Back then we had plenty of storage space, but no means other than DVD-Rs to back it up, and it took lots of them. USB drives became cheaper and more reliable, DVD-R sales have gone down. I'm sure most people who have purchased a DVD burner have tried out burning a movie, but a hundred? I have plenty of disposable income and I think a hundred is higher than my total collection of DVDs. In 2005, though, I did have m
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One reason is that he is not the police, it is not his job to enforce the law. You don't want customer service people making decisions about who they think are criminals.
Hell, frequently you don't even want police making decisions about who they thing are criminals.... :-/
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I assume you are assuming he is assuming?
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Aspiring 3D artists probably wouldn't be calling their "clients" on the cell phone in my lobby to assess how many DVDs they need to buy for that week's batch of the latest Iron Man rip. They also wouldn't brag about how this "doesn't affect welfare benefits / income tax".
I have no qualms with casual copying, go ahead and burn that movie, burn my music, burn whatever, and swap discs with your friends. I draw the line when burning copyrighted material becomes a business, because that actually IS a lost sale
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If someone is willing to pay $10 to some random fraudster for a movie, but they won't spend that same $10 on a legally distributed DVD, I call bullshit.
So why are they buying the $10 pirated version instead of the $10 legal version?
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Knowingly presenting false data should be treated as libel against truth. Sadly, lying about data to the public isn't illegal.
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Well, to be fair, if you pirate one movie they estimate they've lost ten thousand dollars in lost sales. Their math is quite simple, really. First, estimate how many works are pirated annually. Next, divide that by the amount of works legitimately sold. Multiply by the average cost of a work. Finally, toss that number aside and pull some really large number out of your posterior. I was surprised when I tried their method and learned that I'm losing $10 quadrillion dollars annually thanks to Canadian p
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Don't think of it as a logic problem. Think of it as classic literature in the making. You know, like Dickens in mid-19th century England when kings were kings and most others ate rats for dinner. It's more depressing but it's easier to understand.
No Surprise (Score:5, Insightful)
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When has a Corporate Special Interest Group ever told the complete truth?
In high school, I had a civics teacher who was also serving on the state legislature (it was a flyover state, not much important going on.) He said lobbyists at least at that level generally wouldn't lie to lawmakers: if a lobbyist loses his credibility with lawmakers, that really damages his ability to influence policy, they were usually a valuable source of information. His example was radar detectors in cars, the state was considering banning them. He didn't know anything about them, and until he talk
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That's really not a very good reason to abort plans to get rid of something that wasn't worth it on its own merit. If you outlaw the item, _someone_ is going to lose their jobs. By the same token, a federal government shouldn't outlaw anything because people in the country (the constituents) might lose jobs.
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Well, if the legislator then honestly told his constituency that not-outlawing radar detectors is worth x deaths/injuries per year to save y jobs, THEN it was a kosher thing to do.
You know what. That company came up with the idea of making radar detectors. It can come up with something else.
Bert
How about sending a postcard to a victim/relatives to thank them for their contribution to help save jobs in that state? Must console them that their sacrifice was worth it.
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How the fuck does a radar detector cause deaths or injuries?!?
Oh...wait....
You must subscribe to the completely unproven propaganda that going 20 over the limit on the freeway increases accident rates by 400%....
Here's a hint: The selection bias in general accident rate studies is profoundly large, yet incredibly subtle at the same time. I'll let you figure out where it actually is.
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When has a Corporate Special Interest Group ever told the complete truth?
The more pressing question: when has there ever been any consequence for them after doing so?
I think revocation of the corporate charter, freezing of all assets, and selling all assets at auction with the proceeds going to charity would send the right message. You'd probably only have to do that once. The example would remain in the memories of all other such groups. They would know there is a line in the sand. It would be a bargain no matter what the cost.
Re:No Surprise (Score:5, Funny)
Wow. That seems harsh. What would you do to them if they lied?
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Wow. That seems harsh. What would you do to them if they lied?
They do lie. Do you really think they are so well-meaning that they simply "accidentally overlooked" all the indications that their data was fallacious? Prior to remitting that data to legislators? Did you suppose that you and I can easily know why their numbers are not even possible, even though we are not professionals, not members of the industry, and not about to present a finalized report to legislators, while they can miss all of this as an honest mistake?
I don't like having to ask people questions
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I don't like having to explain to people that they didn't understand their own post, but...
Ah, you'll figure it out.
Apparently if you make a single honest mistake, half a dozen people will come out the woodwork to make sure you know it, or in the case of some, to tell you how much of a retard you are. By implication, I suppose they're also telling me that they never lost their train of thought. At any rate, your post actually explained something useful to me and that's appreciated. If I'm wrong, I hope you or somebody else does speak up to let me know.
The rest were all redundant, merely restating what you made clear.
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Double whoosh. You got it wrong. Read causality's response in #36407926 more carefully. It indicates the punishment he would impose on someone for telling the complete truth . Smallpond facetiously replied by suggesting that if that's the punishment for telling the truth, then the punishment for lying must be unfathomable.
news flash - IP lobbyist cried wolf (Score:2, Insightful)
In other news, the sky is still blue.
counterfeit within a counterfeit (Score:2)
Re:counterfeit within a counterfeit (Score:5, Funny)
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while ($counterfeit)
{
$counterfeit += $counterfeit;
}
Cognitive Dissonance (Score:4, Insightful)
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This isn't incompetence, it's sickening greed.
It is a physical pathology of which greed, amongst other things, including criminal behavior, is a symptom.
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This isn't incompetence, it's sickening greed.
It is a physical pathology of which greed, amongst other things, including criminal behavior, is a symptom.
Hypothetically speaking, do you think involuntary sterilization is too harsh? With or without anesthesia -- I'm not picky.
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Ludovico Technique should produce the desired results..
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This isn't incompetence, it's sickening greed.
It is a physical pathology of which greed, amongst other things, including criminal behavior, is a symptom.
Hypothetically speaking, do you think involuntary sterilization is too harsh? With or without anesthesia -- I'm not picky.
They should be told that they're the lucky winner of a Darwin Award.
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It doesn't mean the companies aren't having their profits stolen, just that they are lying as to the extent. Probably to garner sympathy from the government.
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It does mean that THEY don't believe the actual losses are big enough for government to take action on, so they exaggerate them.
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The self-interested scumbags who perpetrate this shit and the governments that not only allow but support this should both be fucking shamed.
It's hard to make a sociopath ashamed of anything. What you can do is put them in jail when they start to cause too much damage.
In other words (Score:4, Insightful)
Whatever makes you think... (Score:2)
Whatever makes you think any laws would undergo scrutiny? As long as lobbyists and MAFIAA keeps the money coming, laws however bad or poorly written will be rubber stamped. It's called "intellectual property based economy." Get used to it. (Ironically, any one with an ounce of intellect would know this "economy" has nothing to do with intellect whatsoever.)
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Lobbyists don't simply lie. That's a vast understatement. We model realities. (At least the skilled ones.) [I say "we", because I try to do the same thing, to fight them. Not that I would be one of them.]
This only works, because people can't accept that reality is relative. So they can't accept that what they perceive as reality, might actually be bad for them and force them to act in a certain way not because that's how things are, but because it was specifically designed that way.
Which means they will def
Re:In other words (Score:4, Interesting)
Lobbyists don't simply lie. That's a vast understatement. We model realities. (At least the skilled ones.) [I say "we", because I try to do the same thing, to fight them. Not that I would be one of them.]
This only works, because people can't accept that reality is relative. So they can't accept that what they perceive as reality, might actually be bad for them and force them to act in a certain way not because that's how things are, but because it was specifically designed that way.
Which means they will defend what they think is "absolute/objective reality" (something that doesn't exist) to their death.
Which means once they experienced your input as part of their reality, they will defend you to their death.
It's beautiful. Evil, but beautiful and elegant. But about the most evil thing one can do.
I personally consider it more evil than mass-murder. Because those manipulated people in essence stop being an independent entity, but become part of you. Like a possessed zombie, dead, yet walking the earth and talking your views.
At least the dead have their peace.
I doubt it will be widely appreciated but you actually do make a compelling observation. I actually wish you had posted with an account.
There's only one point where I would dispute you. Reality simply is. The only reason it may seem relative is that too many people don't have their own eyes to see. They do not know how to process and interpret information for themselves. They don't think critically. They don't understand reason, logical fallacies, bias, nor do they know how to test the objective truth of a thing. They think that's too hard. So they look to others, some trusted establishment like the government, or the media, or a charismatic leader, to tell them what they need to know and how they should feel about it. We call it advertising, propaganda, sound bites, debate framing, half-truths, agenda-driven reporting, whatever you like. If enough people are on board and agree with each other, they see no fault even when there are great faults.
It is the dependence on others to do for you what you should be well able to do for yourself that is the problem. That's why there are "gatekeepers" who get to decide what does and does not become what "everybody knows".
The hard truth is, most human beings are type-cast personalities. They are stamped from a few cookie cutters. They are individuals "just like everyone else" which means not at all. Their thoughts, beliefs, mannerisms, biases, values, ethics, principles, worldviews, perspectives, even those they would quite willingly fight for, are not their own. They are not genuinely theirs. Someone spent a lot of money, expended a lot of influence and political capital, and worked very hard to sell those ideas. It is actually a hypnotic state passionately governed by a sort of emotional logic.
The really funny thing about hyponosis is that people will always rationalize it. A professional hypnotist can look someone right in the eye, with that person's full attention, and tell them plainly "I am about to hypnotize you, and when I do, you will have an overwhelming urge to stand on your head because that is what I hypnotized you to do." Later, the person stands on their head. If you ask them why, they will always have an excuse like "this is my exercise regimen (though it never was before)" or "maybe this will fix my headache" (though they always took an aspirin before). They will never, ever admit that it was due to someone else's influence. Hypnosis works at the ego level, and the ego cannot admit that it has reigns and that someone else can hold them, that the strongest most polished influence gets to possess the reigns.
People easily become so identified with these labels and engineered perspectives that losing them would feel like a type of death. That's what drives the denial. It's the barrier to entry to waking up and realizing how much you're lied to and manipulated every day by people w
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I disagree. People are, in part, a collection of their thoughts, beliefs, etc. They arrive at these through processing their own exper
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"People easily become so identified with these labels and engineered perspectives that losing them would feel like a type of death. That's what drives the denial. It's the barrier to entry to waking up and realizing how much you're lied to and manipulated every day by people who smile as they deceive because that's what the cue card told them to do."
Nicely put.
Beyond the bleak vista of wading through this external crap daily is the added depressing annoyance from slogging through what I manufacture on my ow
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It's so ridiculously simple. Assuming a real love of truth, this is how it would play out:
"So there is no such thing as absolute truth?"
"That's correct."
"Are you absolutely sure?"
It isn't usually so simple. Usually, the need to win the argument gets in the way. I mean, it's not good enough to win. Someone else must lose, dammit. Right?
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If I drop a ball, it will fall
Based on what we've observed thus far, yes. But it only takes one instance of that not happening to destroy that reality (however unlikely that is to occur). I'd say it's quite difficult to be 100% sure of much of anything.
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We can say with 100% certainty, though, that IP lobbyists are scumbags.
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It's beautiful. Evil, but beautiful and elegant. But about the most evil thing one can do.
I personally consider it more evil than mass-murder. Because those manipulated people in essence stop being an independent entity, but become part of you. Like a possessed zombie, dead, yet walking the earth and talking your views.
At least the dead have their peace.
So we've already _had_ a zombie invasion? Shit.
And in order to prevent the zombie apocalypse, we should have just killed all the IP lobbyists? Cool.
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It's beautiful. Evil, but beautiful and elegant. But about the most evil thing one can do. I personally consider it more evil than mass-murder. Because those manipulated people in essence stop being an independent entity, but become part of you. Like a possessed zombie, dead, yet walking the earth and talking your views. At least the dead have their peace.
So we've already _had_ a zombie invasion? Shit.
And in order to prevent the zombie apocalypse, we should have just killed all the IP lobbyists? Cool.
You don't have to kill them. Just don't let them bite you, and for God's sake don't let them reproduce.
Yeah but ... (Score:1)
(Ducking and running.)
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http://www.google.com/search?q=1+cad+to+usd [google.com]
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Eh? (Canadian here.)
That would make the US measurement worth _more_ than the Canadian measurement.
With money, it's the other way round.
Of course, you probably went through a US public school, so you wouldn't be able to understand that, anyway....
(Ducking and running.)
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Actually, I take that back. It was fucking hilarious when the loonie was worth $1.10 USD.
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you imply that the "greenback" is worth something...
Illegal and Should be able to Charge Them (Score:1)
This is something I would love to see an action causing anyone in the executive level and people found to be fabricating this stuff to be criminally charged. Anyone at the executive level should very anything they support — especially on this level.
Obviously that won't happen.
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<zeep> wtf is veryfi?
* Batty bangs his head repeatedly against a wall [bash.org]
And will the "lose ground" because of this? (Score:2)
I think the most important thing here is that this will not likely change anything. They will continue receiving the benefits of the sweetheart deals the lied to get in earlier instances and they may still get what they came for in this instance as well.
Here's some sarcasm: (Score:2)
Shocking.
Like Politicians (Score:2)
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While the Harper Conservatives won their first majority, the other outcomes of the May 2011 election were nothing short of shocking. Perhaps not quite as historic as Obama's election but certainly a momentous chapter in Canadian politics.
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Don't underestimate personal charm - Jack Layton has been consistently regarded as the most likeable leader for years, he comes across as genuine, is known to hang out at local pubs and fit in with the regular guys (befitting his leadership of the working man's party) and is the only current leader who's equally expressive in both English and French.
Harper's stiff smile engenders distrust in those who like leaders to be affable and many still cite that published photo of him sending his son off to school wi
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Jack Layton's NDP is a center-left party; the Quebec surge began after he appeared on the most popular French talk show in Quebec. This is Jack's chance to do what Stephen did for the alliance that is now the majority party but he will probably have to adopt some level of Harperian control until his young rookies learn how to play with the big dogs.
Note also that they have been the strongest opponents of the minority Conservatives, which made them attractive to those whose distrust Harper and were unsure ab
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When has the NDP not had a full slate of candidates? How did this secret power turn the people against the Bloc overnight?
Angels on a Pinhead? (Score:2)
I thought we all were in agreement that piracy was an unmeasurable phenomenon? Which of course also means that benefits are immeasurable.
In a few words (Score:3)
No shit, Sherlock. And we expected what else, exactly?
Gotta love the title (Score:2)
In Other News (Score:2)
Lobbyists make claims that distort the truth; politicians remain clueless; sheeple continue being screwed, like it.
Reduce prices = Reduced counterfeiting (Score:1)
Counterfeiting actually keeps prices low. The higher the price on a product the more the counterfeiting. The lower the price the lower the counterfeiting. Might sound logical but it'll remain a true economic principle regardless of law enforcement.
Counterfeit? (Score:1)
Probably not the exact right discussion but we don't have a current DMCA/Bittorrent session atm...
Counterfeit? File-sharing? WTF do you think the conquistadors wanted gold for? The royalty is in debt and needs to counterfeit some tokens!
Protect us from the evil file-sharing...
How fitting! (Score:2)
I always thought those figures were way off, and now they got caught with proof of it, serves them right, now no one will ever believe these claims that movie and music industries lose so much over piracy....more like they are making more now then they ever have with their creative accounting, and false companies going bankrupt http://entertainment.slashdot.org/story/10/07/09/1621218/Hollywood-Accounting-mdash-How-Harry-Potter-Loses-Money [slashdot.org]
all i can say is i hope they really start cracking down on the compani