Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
Canada Stats News

Canadian IP Lobbyists Caught Faking Counterfeit Data 118

Posted by Soulskill
from the lies-damned-lies-and-statistics dept.
An anonymous reader writes "The Canadian IP Council, the Canadian Chamber of Commerce's IP lobby arm, has been caught floating false claims about the scope of counterfeiting in Canada. Recent claims include citing a figure based on numbers the FBI rejects ($22.5 billion), a figure the Canadian police won't support ($30 billion), and when pressed on the issue, it now points to yet another source that upon review indicates it fabricated its claims."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Canadian IP Lobbyists Caught Faking Counterfeit Data

Comments Filter:
  • by jmcbain (1233044) on Friday June 10, 2011 @07:54PM (#36407352)
    then they're making legitimate data? Thanks for the mental exercise on a late Friday afternoon.
    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward

      In this case, two wrongs don't make a right - just a wronger wrong.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      I didn't know that Canada was worth $30bn

    • by mooingyak (720677)

      No, they just didn't use REAL counterfeit data.

    • by billcopc (196330) <vrillco@yahoo.com> on Friday June 10, 2011 @08:13PM (#36407488) Homepage

      Let's put this into perspective:

      There are an estimated 34 million Canadian citizens as of 2011. The fabricated estimates would suggest that, on average, each Canadian is responsible for $660 to $1000 worth of counterfeit goods per year, whether produced locally or imported from overseas.

      Now, I don't know about you, but I personally don't bring back.$1000 worth of cheap chinese gadgets on annual trips, nor do I burn $1000 worth of movies to DVD-R for resale, though the latter was quite popular a few years back, mostly by *drumroll* unemployed immigrants who couldn't care less about copyright. I know, because those parasitic bastards would come to my store every few days for a spindle of my cheapest DVD media. Today it's probably much less popular, given how easy it is to find and download anything, and the ever-increasing broadband penetration.

      So what's left ? Are there massive counterfeiting ops racking up huge volumes, to make up for lack of counterfeiting within the general populace ? Or is the IP Council crying wolf to secure handouts and protectionist legislation ? I'm no expert, but history leads me to believe the latter is the truth.

      • by Legion303 (97901)

        "I know, because those parasitic bastards would come to my store every few days for a spindle of my cheapest DVD media."

        It sounds more like you *assumed*, because those parasitic bastards etc. etc. Unless one of them came right out and told you that's what they were for.

        • well if it was his store, wouldn't he know what the parasitic bastards were buying? maybe he rang them up.
          • by MobileTatsu-NJG (946591) on Friday June 10, 2011 @11:31PM (#36408592)

            well if it was his store, wouldn't he know what the parasitic bastards were buying? maybe he rang them up.

            I saw you leave a store once with a tub of vaseline and a box of rubber gloves. Now you claim you bought this stuff to dye your hair, but we all know what you really do in your spare time.

            Actually this isn't a bad metaphor to explain why "you have nothing to hide" isn't actually a compelling argument about losing our privacy.

            • by Macrat (638047)

              I saw you leave a store once with a tub of vaseline and a box of rubber gloves. Now you claim you bought this stuff to dye your hair, but we all know what you really do in your spare time.

              Finger painting?

        • >> "I know, because those parasitic bastards would come to my store every few days for a spindle of my cheapest DVD media."

          > It sounds more like you *assumed*, because those parasitic bastards etc. etc. Unless one of them came right out and told you that's what they were for.

          I'm sure they were coming into his store every few days for a spindle of cheap DVDs in order to take more video of their family dog.

          Although if they're parasites, what is he who makes money on the parasites?

          • I'm sure they were coming into his store every few days for a spindle of cheap DVDs in order to take more video of their family dog.

            Aspiring 3D artists will go through spindles of DVDs either for making demo reels to find work and/or to back up gigs of data they generated to make those reels. These days hard disc space is generous enough to not really rely on removable media, but it wasn't that long ago where you needed DVD-Rs to maintain the output.

            Although if they're parasites, what is he who makes money on the parasites?

            They could be telling him to his face that they're downloading movie rips of stuff they've never seen or paid for before and he still wouldn't be in the wrong for selling him those spindles

            • > Aspiring 3D artists will go through spindles of DVDs either for making demo reels to find work and/or to back up gigs of data they generated to make those reels. These days hard disc space is generous enough to not really rely on removable media, but it wasn't that long ago where you needed DVD-Rs to maintain the output.

              Fair point, although I'd be surprised if local buying was cheapest for that. I find piracy by far the more likely possibility, although there are legal non-infringing uses.

              > They co

              • Fair point, although I'd be surprised if local buying was cheapest for that. I find piracy by far the more likely possibility, although there are legal non-infringing uses.

                Part of his statement was that this was a few years ago, I'm assuming this is around 2005. Back then we had plenty of storage space, but no means other than DVD-Rs to back it up, and it took lots of them. USB drives became cheaper and more reliable, DVD-R sales have gone down. I'm sure most people who have purchased a DVD burner have tried out burning a movie, but a hundred? I have plenty of disposable income and I think a hundred is higher than my total collection of DVDs. In 2005, though, I did have m

                • One reason is that he is not the police, it is not his job to enforce the law. You don't want customer service people making decisions about who they think are criminals.

                  Hell, frequently you don't even want police making decisions about who they thing are criminals.... :-/

            • <quote><p>The only real thing he did wrong was he made assumptions about what they were up to.</p></quote>

              I assume you are assuming he is assuming?
            • by billcopc (196330)

              Aspiring 3D artists probably wouldn't be calling their "clients" on the cell phone in my lobby to assess how many DVDs they need to buy for that week's batch of the latest Iron Man rip. They also wouldn't brag about how this "doesn't affect welfare benefits / income tax".

              I have no qualms with casual copying, go ahead and burn that movie, burn my music, burn whatever, and swap discs with your friends. I draw the line when burning copyrighted material becomes a business, because that actually IS a lost sale

              • If someone is willing to pay $10 to some random fraudster for a movie, but they won't spend that same $10 on a legally distributed DVD, I call bullshit.

                So why are they buying the $10 pirated version instead of the $10 legal version?

      • Knowingly presenting false data should be treated as libel against truth. Sadly, lying about data to the public isn't illegal.

      • Well, to be fair, if you pirate one movie they estimate they've lost ten thousand dollars in lost sales. Their math is quite simple, really. First, estimate how many works are pirated annually. Next, divide that by the amount of works legitimately sold. Multiply by the average cost of a work. Finally, toss that number aside and pull some really large number out of your posterior. I was surprised when I tried their method and learned that I'm losing $10 quadrillion dollars annually thanks to Canadian p

    • Don't think of it as a logic problem. Think of it as classic literature in the making. You know, like Dickens in mid-19th century England when kings were kings and most others ate rats for dinner. It's more depressing but it's easier to understand.

  • No Surprise (Score:5, Insightful)

    by memojuez (910304) on Friday June 10, 2011 @07:55PM (#36407360)
    When has a Corporate Special Interest Group ever told the complete truth?
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by interkin3tic (1469267)

      When has a Corporate Special Interest Group ever told the complete truth?

      In high school, I had a civics teacher who was also serving on the state legislature (it was a flyover state, not much important going on.) He said lobbyists at least at that level generally wouldn't lie to lawmakers: if a lobbyist loses his credibility with lawmakers, that really damages his ability to influence policy, they were usually a valuable source of information. His example was radar detectors in cars, the state was considering banning them. He didn't know anything about them, and until he talk

      • by hajus (990255)

        That's really not a very good reason to abort plans to get rid of something that wasn't worth it on its own merit. If you outlaw the item, _someone_ is going to lose their jobs. By the same token, a federal government shouldn't outlaw anything because people in the country (the constituents) might lose jobs.

        • You're right that the mere fact that it was his constituents shouldn't be a major reason, but it would hit closer to home to put faces on the consequences. Realistically, it matters. Furthermore, he and his fellow politicians didn't realize how many jobs were involved. He worked in education and legislature, what does he know about manufacturing, or the scale of the industry? It does change the balance of harms vs benefits.
          • by kanweg (771128)

            Well, if the legislator then honestly told his constituency that not-outlawing radar detectors is worth x deaths/injuries per year to save y jobs, THEN it was a kosher thing to do.

            You know what. That company came up with the idea of making radar detectors. It can come up with something else.

            Bert
            How about sending a postcard to a victim/relatives to thank them for their contribution to help save jobs in that state? Must console them that their sacrifice was worth it.

            • by ewanm89 (1052822)
              As long as they don't outlaw the export of radar detectors to other states, only outlaw use on public ways (and possibly sale within the state and import). Then the factory can keep making them anyway.
            • How the fuck does a radar detector cause deaths or injuries?!?

              Oh...wait....

              You must subscribe to the completely unproven propaganda that going 20 over the limit on the freeway increases accident rates by 400%....

              Here's a hint: The selection bias in general accident rate studies is profoundly large, yet incredibly subtle at the same time. I'll let you figure out where it actually is.

    • by causality (777677)

      When has a Corporate Special Interest Group ever told the complete truth?

      The more pressing question: when has there ever been any consequence for them after doing so?

      I think revocation of the corporate charter, freezing of all assets, and selling all assets at auction with the proceeds going to charity would send the right message. You'd probably only have to do that once. The example would remain in the memories of all other such groups. They would know there is a line in the sand. It would be a bargain no matter what the cost.

      • by Smallpond (221300) on Friday June 10, 2011 @09:37PM (#36407984) Homepage Journal

        Wow. That seems harsh. What would you do to them if they lied?

        • by causality (777677)

          Wow. That seems harsh. What would you do to them if they lied?

          They do lie. Do you really think they are so well-meaning that they simply "accidentally overlooked" all the indications that their data was fallacious? Prior to remitting that data to legislators? Did you suppose that you and I can easily know why their numbers are not even possible, even though we are not professionals, not members of the industry, and not about to present a finalized report to legislators, while they can miss all of this as an honest mistake?

          I don't like having to ask people questions

  • In other news, the sky is still blue.

  • by Lieutenant Buddha (1660501) on Friday June 10, 2011 @07:58PM (#36407392)
    How is it that these organizations and lobbyists can claim they genuinely feel their profits are being "stolen" when they need to use fabricated data to support their claims? This isn't incompetence, it's sickening greed. The self-interested scumbags who perpetrate this shit and the governments that not only allow but support this should both be fucking shamed.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      This isn't incompetence, it's sickening greed.

      It is a physical pathology of which greed, amongst other things, including criminal behavior, is a symptom.

      • by causality (777677)

        This isn't incompetence, it's sickening greed.

        It is a physical pathology of which greed, amongst other things, including criminal behavior, is a symptom.

        Hypothetically speaking, do you think involuntary sterilization is too harsh? With or without anesthesia -- I'm not picky.

        • Ludovico Technique should produce the desired results..

        • This isn't incompetence, it's sickening greed.

          It is a physical pathology of which greed, amongst other things, including criminal behavior, is a symptom.

          Hypothetically speaking, do you think involuntary sterilization is too harsh? With or without anesthesia -- I'm not picky.

          They should be told that they're the lucky winner of a Darwin Award.

    • How is it that these organizations and lobbyists can claim they genuinely feel their profits are being "stolen" when they need to use fabricated data to support their claims?

      It doesn't mean the companies aren't having their profits stolen, just that they are lying as to the extent. Probably to garner sympathy from the government.

      • by sjames (1099)

        It does mean that THEY don't believe the actual losses are big enough for government to take action on, so they exaggerate them.

    • The self-interested scumbags who perpetrate this shit and the governments that not only allow but support this should both be fucking shamed.

      It's hard to make a sociopath ashamed of anything. What you can do is put them in jail when they start to cause too much damage.

  • In other words (Score:4, Insightful)

    by lavagolemking (1352431) on Friday June 10, 2011 @08:04PM (#36407436)
    Lobbyists lie. News at 11. Good that law enforcement is starting to realize it now though. Now if only their laws were looked at with this kind of scrutiny...
    • Whatever makes you think any laws would undergo scrutiny? As long as lobbyists and MAFIAA keeps the money coming, laws however bad or poorly written will be rubber stamped. It's called "intellectual property based economy." Get used to it. (Ironically, any one with an ounce of intellect would know this "economy" has nothing to do with intellect whatsoever.)

    • Re: (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Lobbyists don't simply lie. That's a vast understatement. We model realities. (At least the skilled ones.) [I say "we", because I try to do the same thing, to fight them. Not that I would be one of them.]

      This only works, because people can't accept that reality is relative. So they can't accept that what they perceive as reality, might actually be bad for them and force them to act in a certain way not because that's how things are, but because it was specifically designed that way.
      Which means they will def

      • Re:In other words (Score:4, Interesting)

        by causality (777677) on Friday June 10, 2011 @09:52PM (#36408052)

        Lobbyists don't simply lie. That's a vast understatement. We model realities. (At least the skilled ones.) [I say "we", because I try to do the same thing, to fight them. Not that I would be one of them.]

        This only works, because people can't accept that reality is relative. So they can't accept that what they perceive as reality, might actually be bad for them and force them to act in a certain way not because that's how things are, but because it was specifically designed that way.
        Which means they will defend what they think is "absolute/objective reality" (something that doesn't exist) to their death.

        Which means once they experienced your input as part of their reality, they will defend you to their death.

        It's beautiful. Evil, but beautiful and elegant. But about the most evil thing one can do.
        I personally consider it more evil than mass-murder. Because those manipulated people in essence stop being an independent entity, but become part of you. Like a possessed zombie, dead, yet walking the earth and talking your views.
        At least the dead have their peace.

        I doubt it will be widely appreciated but you actually do make a compelling observation. I actually wish you had posted with an account.

        There's only one point where I would dispute you. Reality simply is. The only reason it may seem relative is that too many people don't have their own eyes to see. They do not know how to process and interpret information for themselves. They don't think critically. They don't understand reason, logical fallacies, bias, nor do they know how to test the objective truth of a thing. They think that's too hard. So they look to others, some trusted establishment like the government, or the media, or a charismatic leader, to tell them what they need to know and how they should feel about it. We call it advertising, propaganda, sound bites, debate framing, half-truths, agenda-driven reporting, whatever you like. If enough people are on board and agree with each other, they see no fault even when there are great faults.

        It is the dependence on others to do for you what you should be well able to do for yourself that is the problem. That's why there are "gatekeepers" who get to decide what does and does not become what "everybody knows".

        The hard truth is, most human beings are type-cast personalities. They are stamped from a few cookie cutters. They are individuals "just like everyone else" which means not at all. Their thoughts, beliefs, mannerisms, biases, values, ethics, principles, worldviews, perspectives, even those they would quite willingly fight for, are not their own. They are not genuinely theirs. Someone spent a lot of money, expended a lot of influence and political capital, and worked very hard to sell those ideas. It is actually a hypnotic state passionately governed by a sort of emotional logic.

        The really funny thing about hyponosis is that people will always rationalize it. A professional hypnotist can look someone right in the eye, with that person's full attention, and tell them plainly "I am about to hypnotize you, and when I do, you will have an overwhelming urge to stand on your head because that is what I hypnotized you to do." Later, the person stands on their head. If you ask them why, they will always have an excuse like "this is my exercise regimen (though it never was before)" or "maybe this will fix my headache" (though they always took an aspirin before). They will never, ever admit that it was due to someone else's influence. Hypnosis works at the ego level, and the ego cannot admit that it has reigns and that someone else can hold them, that the strongest most polished influence gets to possess the reigns.

        People easily become so identified with these labels and engineered perspectives that losing them would feel like a type of death. That's what drives the denial. It's the barrier to entry to waking up and realizing how much you're lied to and manipulated every day by people w

        • The hard truth is, most human beings are type-cast personalities. They are stamped from a few cookie cutters. They are individuals "just like everyone else" which means not at all. Their thoughts, beliefs, mannerisms, biases, values, ethics, principles, worldviews, perspectives, even those they would quite willingly fight for, are not their own. They are not genuinely theirs.

          I disagree. People are, in part, a collection of their thoughts, beliefs, etc. They arrive at these through processing their own exper

        • by kermidge (2221646)

          "People easily become so identified with these labels and engineered perspectives that losing them would feel like a type of death. That's what drives the denial. It's the barrier to entry to waking up and realizing how much you're lied to and manipulated every day by people who smile as they deceive because that's what the cue card told them to do."

          Nicely put.

          Beyond the bleak vista of wading through this external crap daily is the added depressing annoyance from slogging through what I manufacture on my ow

      • It's beautiful. Evil, but beautiful and elegant. But about the most evil thing one can do.
        I personally consider it more evil than mass-murder. Because those manipulated people in essence stop being an independent entity, but become part of you. Like a possessed zombie, dead, yet walking the earth and talking your views.
        At least the dead have their peace.

        So we've already _had_ a zombie invasion? Shit.

        And in order to prevent the zombie apocalypse, we should have just killed all the IP lobbyists? Cool.

        • It's beautiful. Evil, but beautiful and elegant. But about the most evil thing one can do. I personally consider it more evil than mass-murder. Because those manipulated people in essence stop being an independent entity, but become part of you. Like a possessed zombie, dead, yet walking the earth and talking your views. At least the dead have their peace.

          So we've already _had_ a zombie invasion? Shit.

          And in order to prevent the zombie apocalypse, we should have just killed all the IP lobbyists? Cool.

          You don't have to kill them. Just don't let them bite you, and for God's sake don't let them reproduce.

  • ... its only Canadian money. Its not like its real or anything.

    (Ducking and running.)

    • by Bieeanda (961632)
      Sorry, dude. That joke stopped being funny when the Loonie started trading at par with the greenback.

      Actually, I take that back. It was fucking hilarious when the loonie was worth $1.10 USD.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    This is something I would love to see an action causing anyone in the executive level and people found to be fabricating this stuff to be criminally charged. Anyone at the executive level should very anything they support — especially on this level.

    Obviously that won't happen.

  • I think the most important thing here is that this will not likely change anything. They will continue receiving the benefits of the sweetheart deals the lied to get in earlier instances and they may still get what they came for in this instance as well.

  • Their statements were not meant to be factual.
  • I thought we all were in agreement that piracy was an unmeasurable phenomenon? Which of course also means that benefits are immeasurable.

  • by tibit (1762298) on Friday June 10, 2011 @09:32PM (#36407948)

    No shit, Sherlock. And we expected what else, exactly?

  • "... faking counterfeit data ..." Duh? Doesn't that mean the same as "... creating real data ..."? Oh well, just a matter of semantics, and computers are still pretty piss poor with that.
  • Lobbyists make claims that distort the truth; politicians remain clueless; sheeple continue being screwed, like it.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Counterfeiting actually keeps prices low. The higher the price on a product the more the counterfeiting. The lower the price the lower the counterfeiting. Might sound logical but it'll remain a true economic principle regardless of law enforcement.

  • Probably not the exact right discussion but we don't have a current DMCA/Bittorrent session atm...

    Counterfeit? File-sharing? WTF do you think the conquistadors wanted gold for? The royalty is in debt and needs to counterfeit some tokens!

    Protect us from the evil file-sharing...

  • I always thought those figures were way off, and now they got caught with proof of it, serves them right, now no one will ever believe these claims that movie and music industries lose so much over piracy....more like they are making more now then they ever have with their creative accounting, and false companies going bankrupt http://entertainment.slashdot.org/story/10/07/09/1621218/Hollywood-Accounting-mdash-How-Harry-Potter-Loses-Money [slashdot.org]
    all i can say is i hope they really start cracking down on the compani

...when fits of creativity run strong, more than one programmer or writer has been known to abandon the desktop for the more spacious floor. - Fred Brooks, Jr.

Working...